PSA: 2 Gus Boots For Sale on Riv Site

[Collin A]

Heyo,

Not sure if this was on people's radar or not, but it looks like there is a pair of GBW on the web specials page on Riv, for what I imagine will end up being a bargain. I'd grab one, but I am a wee bit too small for the medium, it looks like.

Happy Monday!

Collin A

[Collin A]

Link!

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/web-special-framesets-and-bicycles

[Abcyclehank]

Down to just the medium now!
Congrats to the lucky Gus owner. So happy it is heading to the hills of Colorado!

Sincerely,
Ryan Hankinson
West Michigan

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I’m glad that the Gus Boots doesn’t really spark an interest for me. This is a good thing because I don’t need another Riv to add to the fleet nor to pin for

[Joe Bernard]

Same same, Chris. Of course I just bought an Atlantis so it didn't really save me from a sale, but I'm kinda surprised how not-enthused I am about this bike. Lots of folks who ride more dirt than I do will love them, though.

[Jonathan D.]

Thoughts on how the Gus’ ride will compare to the Joe and Atlantis? I don’t have a sense of the geometry differences beyond the fat whee options.

[Ash]

Last month when I visited Riv HQ to pick up some stuff I took GBW for a quick ride.  Wish I had taken it for a longer ride, but I was short on time.

I've owned both Atlantis (MIT) and Joe.  Boots felt VERY different.  Felt a bit lighter, kind of more stable and noticeably more comfortable.  The riding position was anything bike MTB-like.  Today 46cm Appaloosa is my 'SUV'.  Felt like GBW would shine better for a utility bike.  Better dirt abilities is an added bonus.

[jandrews]

Curious if this bike will be able to take on the role of a backpacking bike more along the lines of a Tumbleweed, etc.  Obviously different geometry but I imagine folks will be happy using this for off-road expedition touring.

What are the F&R axle widths?

[S]

How does the GBW compare to the Clem L? They look fairly similar.

[Collin A]

All great questions that will hopefully be answered when the production run actually gets released! I'm sure the Riv folks have a catalog/info page in the works, too.

[PaulS]

I am not a big fan of "mixte" frames, but Gus Boots speaks to me.  If I didn't have a Hunq, this is the frame I would pick. I would think it would do very well for most off-road terrain.  Tumbleweed can take true 4" tires, but I've been on extended bikepacking trips on fat tires and it's not that fun.  Some people like it, but unless you're on sand or snow for 50%+ of the time, Plus tires would make a great option.  Looking forward to its release.  Just from the pictures, it appears it's regular 100/135 QR hubs.

[Ed Fausto]

Hi Ash,

Thanks for the short description of GBW :-)

I am surprised that it felt lighter but happy to hear from you that it felt stable and comfortable.

We are almost the same pbh (79"), which size Gus did you try and what was the wheel size?

Regards,

Edgar

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[Ed Carolipio]

I had/have (still packing it for sale) a 51cm Joe. I got the Small GBW prototype and adjusted it into "commuter mode" recently. Key build differences with the Joe vs GBW: 55cm Albas with a 9cm Nitto Technomic stem vs 710mm Jones Loop with a 30mm Spank stem; 2.0" Marathon Supremes on VO Diagonales vs 2.35" G-One Speeds on Velocity Cliffhangers; and Sugino XD600 cranks vs Silver cranks. Everything else is roughly the same, and I ride the same urban, all pavement route with the same load to work.

The one sentence summary on the GBW: there's no mistaking it's a mountain bike. It may have a rack and notionally street tires, but the ride rhymes with all the mountain bikes I've owned. I read all of that Mongolian riding stuff that Grant wrote about and thought, yeah, sure, Grant, whatever, you're the crazy man riding into chest deep pools of water in your Ethiopian shoes, but after riding the GBW I kinda get what he's saying. 

I also like the swoopy top tube since I can mount the bike without having to swing my leg over the seat and standover is one less thing to worry about when the terrain gets uneven or when tackling a challenging part of a trail.

For me, I picked the GBW over the Joe because I wanted a mountain bike that I could commute with during the week, and I like the ride of fat tires. The GBW will likely outshine the Joe on single track while lightly loaded, while the Joe would outperform the GBW when hauling a load or pounding out miles on maintained gravel roads.

--Ed C.

[Ed Fausto]

Hi Ed!,

Would you mind sharing the rim size of the Cliffhanger of your GBW?

Thanks :-)

--

[Ed Carolipio]

Ah, I see I am not the only ed obsessing over narrow non-disc rims with 27.5+ tires...

The Cliffhanger has an interior width of 25mm. The bike came stock with Cliffhangers and 2.8" G-One Allrounders, so my guess is folks on the board who've demoed this Gus at Riv and had All-Rounders also had the same rim. I did a casual road ride with that setup with no issues, though I do worry if I do anything on the trails the tires would get squirmy. I was monitoring the GBW thread and that seemed to be a consensus opinion.

Would be curious to hear about from GBW owners on what riding the aggressively was like. (Sadly, I won't get a chance to do that anytime soon, otherwise I'd report on it.) Also appreciate any leads on a 650b rim with a brake track and an internal width closer to 30mm...

--Ed C.

[Deacon Patrick]

As others here, I wondered about the rim issue. My conclusion is it really is a near non-issue. Would a wider rim brake rim be ideal? Sure. But the squirrliness people fear isn’t that big a deal. The Cliffhanger rims are recommended for up to 65mm tires, that’s 2.6” (2.56” to be exact, which tire lables generally are not). I have no problem because 1. I trust Grant; 2. MTB tires used to squeeze onto amazingly small rims before the industry widened them; 3. I would rather the ride of a lighter fork than disk brakes, and there aren’t better brake options out there. It’s amazing what a lighter fork absorbes, and can be easily seen to do so on washboard roads (I don’t recommend trying this on the bike you’re riding on technical trail. Grin.).

Tire sizes: I believe all frame sizes are 650b/27.5 except the XL. My Large is 27.5, the Medium on the web special page is, and Ed’s Small is too.

With abandon,
Patrick

[PaulS]

On my old mountain bike, I had 29+ set up with Stans Flow rims (23mm internal) and 29x3" tires.  No issues down to about 17psi riding aggressively on the trail.  I don't think there would be any issue unless you were well down in the low-teens.

[Ryan M.]

IMHO and this is coming from the way I know I ride... the Cliffhangers are not a good rim for a tire in the 2.8 inch range. I have Cliffhangers on my Appaloosa running 57mm G Ones and I just don't see how a 2.8 would ride well off road (it would be terribly balloon like), especially if you are thinking about putting knobbies on it...you know, for actual dirt riding. I like the Cliffhanger for the Appaloosa and have it setup tubeless...it's a great setup with the 57mm G ones.

I have a  new Trek Remedy 9.8 that is running 27+ tires, 2.6 inch stock tires on 30mm rims and the setup works very well. I think 30mm or above is the width you want to start looking at for a tire that is 2.8 in width. The thing is that with a wider tire you will be riding a lower air pressure, and if you have it ballooned out you really are risking folding the tire when you hit a turn at speed. Now, this is totally dependent on how you ride and what, if any, trails you are going to ride. For me, if the cliffhanger is the widest rim I got, I'm going to stick with a tire in the 2.2 to 2.4inch width and I think the Gus will probably handle pretty great with those size tires.

Can owners comment on the wider tires with the cliffhanger rims and v brake arms?  Does the roundness of the tire and having a further reach for the brake pad to contact the rim seem to interfere at all with the v brake arms? 

- Ryan (who thinks disc brakes like the Paul Klampers are a lot better than rim brakes ;) )

[Ed Carolipio]

When I was asking about the prototype, Will said one of the changes on the updated frames was to move the brake posts - I forget which direction - to make the frame "work better" with a 2.8" tire and V-brakes. As a guess, V-brake reach may have been an issue - my complete came with CX-50s and straddle cable/carrier instead of the stock fixed straddle cable thingy -  which they addressed with the updated design.

--Ed C.

[Ash]

Edgar,

I think it was the medium.  Yes, more comfortable and stable and feels lighter. It moved easily in spite of those super wide knobby ballon tires (forgot the specs).  I think Grant is onto something with this design.

On Tuesday, 26 March 2019 18:10:37 UTC-7, ed wrote:

Hi Ash,

Thanks for the short description of GBW :-)

I am surprised that it felt lighter but happy to hear from you that it felt stable and comfortable.

We are almost the same pbh (79"), which size Gus did you try and what was the wheel size?

Regards,

Edgar

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 3:33 AM Ash <ash...@gmail.com> wrote:

Last month when I visited Riv HQ to pick up some stuff I took GBW for a quick ride.  Wish I had taken it for a longer ride, but I was short on time.

I've owned both Atlantis (MIT) and Joe.  Boots felt VERY different.  Felt a bit lighter, kind of more stable and noticeably more comfortable.  The riding position was anything bike MTB-like.  Today 46cm Appaloosa is my 'SUV'.  Felt like GBW would shine better for a utility bike.  Better dirt abilities is an added bonus.

On Tuesday, 26 March 2019 11:31:38 UTC-7, Jonathan D. wrote:

Thoughts on how the Gus’ ride will compare to the Joe and Atlantis?  I don’t have a sense of the geometry differences beyond the fat whee options.

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[William!]

- Ryan (who thinks disc brakes like the Paul Klampers are a lot better than rim brakes ;) )

This is something I'd also like to disc-gus 

[Joe Bernard]

I tried, mate. I think not using discs is going to be a headache for GBW in the market, as is already visible in this "how to make big tires and v-brakes work together" discussion. But I can only bark at that moon so long...

[Drw]

I very much agree but was gonna keep my mouth shut about it. In that buffalo bike post, there is a link to a disc Rivendell prototype from like a decade ago. I couldn’t believe it. They were thinking about doing it back then, but not now, when the market is basically demanding it... can’t wrap my head around the decision.

[PaulS]

For this type of a bike, I’m fine with the rim brakes. There are plenty of disc 27.5 plus bikes out there. Ogre, ECR, Jones, Tumbleweed, Crust, etc.

What Riv NEEDS to do is come out with some 30-35mm ID rims. Maybe collaborate with Velocity.

[Ian A]

Deacon:

Am I to infer you are the proud owner of a Gus? From your post: "My Large is 27.5, the Medium on the web special page is..."

IanA

[Ed Fausto]

Same here, i hope Riv and Velocity would collaborate for a wider rims :-)

> On 29 Mar 2019, at 11:37 AM, PaulS <shin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What Riv NEEDS to do is come out with some 30-35mm ID rims. Maybe collaborate with Velocity.
>

[Ed Carolipio]

The market for a 35mm ID rim with a brake track is tiny - can't think of any other rim brake plus bikes - but there might be interest in a 28-30mm ID one. That rim flattens out 55mm tires and matches up well with a 60mm tire - which is Clem, fenderless Joe, and old school MTB territory. (fAtlantis too?)

I don't want to re-litigate the disc vs rim thing. Let me just say I understand now the decision to go with rim brakes on the GBW. The frame has ride characteristics that's waaay different than the disc brake equipped rigid MTBs I've ridden, and I'm convinced at least some of that comes from designing a mass produced frame to withstand the stresses of a rim brake instead a disc one.

-Ed C.

[Deacon Patrick]

Aye, Ian, I am in that odd, exciting, antsy, eager, anticipitory space of owning and awaiting. Grin. Proud? Nae. I hope not. I don’t want to commit a deadly sin. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[George Rosselle]

Is anyone familiar with this rim? A 30mm internal width and can be used with rim brakes according to their website:

https://www.halowheels.com/shop/components/sas-27-5-rim/

[PaulS]

I would think wide rim-brake wheels period, is a sub of a sub market.  Given the choice, I would lean towards wider.  It would give those v-brake arms better tire clearance as well.  But while we're wishing upon a falling star, just give us both 30 and 35mm, Rivendell.

[Christopher Cote]

I can't believe that the medium GBW hasn't sold yet.

Count me among the old men shouting at clouds that it should have disc brakes. I get why it doesn't, but the one and only one benefit of rim brakes on a fat-tired, off-road focused bike is far outweighed by the benefits of discs.

I wish there was a bike with the functional elements that Riv espouses, such as high bars, long chainstays, slack STA, and that trademark Rivendell ride quality, without the aesthetic elements like swoopy tubing, lugs with hearts, threaded steerers, etc. And disc brakes, of course. The Jones bikes are close, and I hope to own one someday soon, but it's not going to ride like a Rivendell.

Chris

[Joe Bernard]

Chris, I'd straighten out that toptube and put discs on the GBW, too, but it does indeed have a threadless steerer.

[Christopher Cote]

Good point, I forgot about that. We're on the same wavelength regarding the rest.

Chris

[Eric Daume]

I own a Jones LWB, and a Clem, and I have to say the Jones rides better pretty much everywhere.  It's MUCH more confidence inspiring off road--the super long rake of the fork puts the front wheel way out in front of you, and the plus tires are fabulous. But surprisingly, it's at least as fun as the Clem on road. That extra rake gives it reasonably quick handling. The Jones is surprisingly lively for a mountain bike with 3" tires. Hydraulic disc brakes aren't so hard to work on (if they're Shimano), and are my favorite brakes for feeling, power, modulation, and easy wheel removal. The Jones is probably more comfortable than the Clem, though both score well here. And it has every braze on I could reasonably ask for, except a kickstand plate. The Clem wins there.

The Clem is a great bike, but if I had to keep one, it's the Jones, no question.

Eric

[Ian A]

Congratulations Deacon!

[Ryan M.]

I actually really like the swoopy tube and know I will dig the additional standover...I find lower standover to be important on a trail bike since I'm constantly stopping to dismount.

Not knowing anything about the ability to turn the bike around twists, trees and swoops on the trail (my trails are twisty with steep pitches and a ton of tight trees), about the only thing I don't like on the gus is the brakes.

On Friday, March 29, 2019 at 10:30:59 AM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

[S]

I wasn’t sure about the lower top tube at first, but the more I think about it the more it makes sense.

Disc brakes … I don’t know. They seem like more trouble than they are worth. How much stopping power do I really need? I’m not a downhill racer. And on a trail or mountain bike I would worry about making repairs in the field. Ten or fifteen miles from anywhere and I have to mess with a bent rotor or hydraulics? No thanks.

[Joe Bernard]

I like discs and v-brakes and find both (mechanical cable version) pretty simple to fiddle with. The issue people are getting into with rim brakes on Gus are tire sizes being limited. I'm sorry, but I think this is a big mistake for this bike: The trend with rigid trail bikes is to toss huge tires in there and go float over stuff. The way to free up the needed room is disc brakes.

[Jonathan D.]

I would agree with Eric on the Jones which seems like the closest to a disc brake Riv mountain bike you can get. I have two sets of wheels and running 2.25 G-ones on the bike and it is actually one of my faster rides.

I like the GBW but that lack of rimmoptiobs for fat tires seem like
an issue and will limit sales. I also think calling it a hillybike will limit sales and undersell what it can be used for.

[George Rosselle]

I did a gravel road ride in north GA yesterday on my fully rigid Fat Chance with V-brakes (it has a boscomoose bar so a slight Riv Connection) and 2.2 tires. I was not that fast, particularly downhill, but I found myself wishing for disc brakes a few times. And the v-brakes are new, so pads were not the issue. Using proper v-brake levers (XTR) I had to squeeze a bit harder than my cable disc brake Jones or hydro Santa Cruz. My hand strength is not what it was when I way younger, and maybe a touch of arthritis so a little pain when squeezing hard. 

I suspect when you run 2.8" to 3" wide tires you will not notice very much the flexiness, or lack of, of the fork. I would have ridden the Jones yesterday but the Fat frame and wheels are lighter. I find lighter wheels are easier climbing for me. Short climbs are no big deal, but long climbs in north GA are another story.

[Christopher Cote]

Disc brakes are a mature product. Paul Klampers and Avid BB7s are bulletproof and require far less fiddling than rim brakes. As Eric said, Shimano hydros are trouble free. SRAM hydros belong in the garbage in my experience, but let's not talk about that. Disc brakes keep your braking surface and pads further out of the muck. Bent rotors are rare, but if it happens, you bolt on a new one. You can take it off if it happens way out in the boonies in order to get home. Best thing in my opinion is that discs separate tire holding and braking duties. Your rim brakes are wearing out the part that holds the tire on. Makes no sense. On the flip side, if you dent a disc brake wheel rim, or your wheel goes out of true, your brakes are unaffected.

If you're riding on paved or unpaved roads, rim brakes are fine. Gnarly east coast trails? Give me discs please.

Chris

[S]

Interesting. I will look into the brakes you mention. Maybe a disc bike is in my future. That said, GP must have good reasons not to use disc brakes. He has thought longer and more deeply about these issues than me or probably almost anyone.

[Joe Bernard]

He does not like them, he does not believe in them. Which is fine as an opinion - anybody can like or dislike anything they want - but my opinion is geared towards marketing. Riv needs this bike to sell and I think rim brakes are an impediment to that goal. So there ya go.

[Ryan M.]

I agree with this, Christopher. I actually did chuck a set of Sram disc brakes in the garbage...they were lower level, probably the Level t or something. They just sucked and I could not get them to bite correctly. I have Sram Guide RS on my Trek Remedy now and they have been trouble free and I really dig the feel of them. Maybe Sram just didn't think too much about their lower level junk. (I blame a set of XTR discs for me breaking two ribs in the parking lot of my bike shop last year. lol. I just wasn't used to the bike and shimanos will absolutely lock up a wheel if you aren't careful...which I wasn't. I fell on my elbow and snapped a few ribs, which the owner and workers just won't let me live down.) I do prefer the feel of Sram brakes when they aren't the lower lever stuff though.

I think the Paul Klamper is one of the best brakes made...ever. It's expensive as all Paul parts seem to be, but it is stupid easy to setup and it just plain works really well especially with a Paul canti lever. It also looks nice.

[Mike Williams]

If you REALLY want disc brakes on a Riv frame( GBW)   I’d say have some disc mounts put on, that’s what I did on my Atlantis and now Joe App.   I had a brace put in the rear to triangulate the chainstay/ seatstay,  make it stronger.   It does open up some rim options, especially for the GBW.   There are a lot of steel frames out there with disc brakes.  Some might be heavier gauge steel than Riv/ some lighter.   Time will tell if the braking action has a negative impact on the frame.  We’ll see

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Joe Bernard]

To be clear I would probably ride and love the GBW as is, I'm not particularly gung ho for huge tires and all that. I just don't think there's a lot of buyers out there like me, and the "like me's" probably already own a rim brake Riv that works in the dirt. Like my Atlantis.

[S]

I understand about marketing, and I am not questioning anyone’s right to an opinion, but comparing the GBW to the Jones seems a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

Rivendell has always been about sticking to what they like. If you want a steel frame with disc brakes, there are a ton of choices. On the other hand, steel frames with canti/v-brake mounts are rarer and rarer and I, for one, am glad that Rivendell still makes them. Moreover, Grant is interested in general riding, not bombing down super gnarly trails, and for that purpose, rim brakes seem like a good choice.

As I wrote, however, I will check out the disc brakes mentioned and maybe I will become a convert. I have been wrong about a lot of stuff.

[PaulS]

100% agreed.  Glad Riv is still making quality rim brake bikes.  I was searching for a Trucker or Karate Monkey with rim brakes before I bought the Riv.  Glad I got the Riv.

Regarding discs, BB7's, those have been the most finicky brakes I've had to-date.  Shimano hydraulics have been flawless.  Spyke/Spyre's were underwhelming.  Hoping to try out a Klamper one of these days.

[Joe Bernard]

As I said, Riv already has several dirt/trail/gravel-worthy bikes. My concern is GBW will land in a valley between Rivs people already have and the type of equipment people want for gnarlier/steeper terrain.

Also like I said, I'm howling at the moon. We had this whole debate endlessly last year and the bike still has v-brakes. I hope they sell a ton of them.

[Christopher Cote]

My experience with SRAM hydraulic brakes is with the low end stuff. I'm happy to be corrected if their higher end brakes are good. As for BB7s, I only had trouble with one set, and I solved that by putting in new pads, and following the setup instructions to the letter. No issues since.

I'm not anti rim brake, I just bought an Atlantis, and for what I'll use it for, V-Brakes with Kool Stop Salmon pads are perfectly adequate. If I was in the market for a GBW, I'd want discs.

Chris

[Deacon Patrick]

I’ve started a new thread on why I’m excited for Boots. It seems silly to lament or arm-chair quarterback a man following his bliss, especially one with a track record of changing the industry multiple times who has successfully run a company for over 25 years.

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/1RL4-0yKUHs

With abandon,
Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

It seems silly to you. I think it's just as valid an opinion as totally loving the bike and expressing THAT opinion. I only got into again here because someone else brought it up, and am only expressing my concerns about marketing and sales. It's clearly a great bike that will work for the people who want it.

[Collin A]

Hm, here I thought this would just be a courtesy to folks who were interested in buying a Gus...whoops!

I'll throw in my two cents here then. I rode a Clem Smith with 2.4 knobbies in a MTB race last weekend and didn't die AND I beat half the crowd (with a 20 minute beer/margarita brake in the middle). There were fat bikes, full suspension squish bikes, hardtails, a couple fully rigid disc brake bikes, etc. and everyone enjoyed their bikes for what they allowed them to do that day. There were plenty of folks who said to me that I should be riding a modern bike, but there were plenty more that were just happy to see folks on their bikes having fun.

Not every design decision has to be a solution to a problem (i.e. rim brakes on a plus sized tire bike). Sometimes you just want to try something because its fun and enjoyable to ride and gets you 95% of the way there.

Rim brakes work, hydraulic brakes work, and everyone rides the bike they enjoy the most for racing or just putting along on the trails. I'm just glad there are options for so many types of riders out there.

Cheers,

Collin

[Deacon Patrick]

It was a wonderful courtesy, Colin! Thank you. It was your post that alerted me to the demo bike being available and led to the purchase (a complete surprise to me, courtesy of me loving and supportive wife who amazes and humbles and elevates me daily!).

With abandon,
Patrick

[S]

Several bikes in the current line-up are going away, some permanently, so I expect there to be less model overlap by the end of the year. But I hear you. That's why I asked how the GBW is different from the Clem.

I wouldn't say you're howling at the moon regarding disc brakes. Like it or not, and as the NAHBS data show, the industry is moving to disc. Long term, I don't know what that means for Rivendell. And if Rivendell ever does offer a disc bike, especially an allroad/gravel type bike, I'm certain that a lot of people here would buy it.

[Joe Bernard]

Oh I'm definitely howling at the moon, S. It's not changing any minds at Riv (I tried), and it just ends up pissing people off here. I'm out!

[Drw]

To me it just seems like a totally unnecessary stand to take. I have a disc and rim bike. I like both. They both stop. My Atlantis is my favorite, but I do worry about wide rim availability. What is there beyond the cliffhanger?. The world has moved to discs, and I think it has pros and cons but definitely nothing so destructive I’d want riv to lose customers over it (they are).
Going forward, I wouldn’t buy a rim brake bike, and especially not a rough stuff one. 1- I already have one, 2- they aren’t noticeably better in my experience.
I hope riv sells 1 million gus’s. I think it’s a cool bike, but I agree with joe that it seems to be filling an increasingly small niche that riv has already filled multiple times.
I spend a lot of time trying to buy riv stuff, but I probably won’t buy another of their bikes unless they offer a disc model. Again, not because I’m so in love with discs, just because that’s an easier bike to have now and I don’t know many downsides. I want riv to flourish and the disc brakes suck hill seems like a really small one to die on.

[ted]

I can’t recall anybody from RBW saying “disc brakes suck”. Seems to me they just don’t buy the argument that disc brakes rule, and choose not to follow that trend. As not following industry trends is part of their modus operandi, this instance doesn’t surprise me much. Nor does it particularly concern me.
The only folks I see looking to die on a hill are the ones harping on how RBW really really really should be selling disk brake bikes.

[Joe Bernard]

Bro, the hill I'm dying on is I'm worried about Riv, especially after hearing the Roadini didn't sell well. I understand people disagreeing with my opinion on the subject, but not understanding my motives for promoting it bewilders me.

[Drw]

We’ve had 4(?) straight up calls for cash in the last year. I’ve contributed to all. Bought a frame for one. I’d be concerned about anyone saying they aren’t concerned.

I truly believe discs would engage a whole new population. I also don’t think in bicycle black
And white terms. If a disc brake is all it takes to get people to come over. Who cares? Even the ibob group and Jan have been able to see this issue with nuance for years now. Not seeing it with nuance and denying its ramifications financially does seem, to me, like a.... desperate stand.

Seeing the idea of having options and differentiation as an ok thing is not the side that’s taking the stand.

I’ll also stop now though.

[Mark in Beacon]

I doubt it's a black and white issue for Rivendell. From what I have read, I think Grant sees bikes continually developing toward the e-bike model, with more and more of the technology becoming "black box." You might argue that disc brakes, in and of themselves, are not that. But taken with other developments and trends, it's hard to deny that bicycles are developing into something "less simple" than what many of us grew up riding and wrenching.

Our culture is set up to believe in eternal progress, from the caves to the stars (with a side trip to Mars, courtesy of E. Musk.) But there is evidence aplenty that in fact this is not the way things actually work. In the 1970s, Ivan Illich, in Tools for Conviviality, writes about watershed moments--those points in time where a tool (and here he referred not only to tools in the sense of a hammer or a bicycle, but also societal tools like the education, transportation, and medical systems) reaches a kind of sweet spot. After that, it starts to accrue complexity for the sake of keeping itself going, essentially. Applying this theory to the marketplace, since our economy is based on eternal growth, the products within must constantly "improve" so we can keep moving toward the stars (and service our debt--till we can't).

Now some will say that discs are an improvement, and they work, and are not overly complex, what's the big deal. Well, if you've thought about where bikes have been and where you see them headed and you care about that and you have a company and you have a few principles, maybe you are thinking that discs are a not so tiny step toward taking the bicycle into something that, in some ways, is no longer a bicycle. And so, perhaps after talking with family and friends, you decide, even though it might hurt sales, even though it might contribute to an earlier demise to your company, to not offer this feature on your bicycles.

I could be totally wrong and not even on the bases, but I think it's not as black and white as hey, rim brakes have always worked fine, let's stick with 'em, just because we're Rivendell and that's what we do. I think might be part of a bigger picture view, and where the company wants to fit into that. It could be a watershed line they just don't want to cross, for any reason.

Or I could have inhaled a bit too much Boeshield this weekend.

[Christopher Cote]

This reminds me of an axiom from the Jeep world, if you'll forgive an automotive analogy. Every Jeep enthusiast is said to have a favorite generation (CJ2A, CJ7, YJ, etc), and considers anything older a hopelessly anachronistic piece of junk, and anything newer a horrible overreach of unnecessary technology.

Myself, I like disc brakes, consider indexed shifting a requirement, but I won't use any carbon fiber reinforced plastic (that last part is always ignored) parts, and I'm just starting to warm up to tubeless tires.

Chris

[Jonathan D.]

As a reminder Grant was open to discs but the Riv team didn’t want them on this bike. I really admire their commitment to their vision and mission. It is what makes Riv so great.

[Ash]

In my observation (relatively new here) reading various threads over last couple of years, it is apparent that (a) most in Riv community prefer rim brakes (b) Increasing number of folks who either want or are open to disc brakes.   There are a few bikes out there that offer both (Surly Troll, for instance).    Design changes required to accommodate discs might make the ride less Riv-like, perhaps.  For a model like GBW, it should be an acceptable compromise for the benefits it offers (expands the market a little bit, more choices for wider rims, folks who ride technical tracks/hilly areas/rainy places etc benefit from better braking... while having the rim brake options there for folks who like to keep it simple).

[Joe Bernard]

At this point all disc talk is howling at the moon, the bike has v-brakes. If it sells well everybody wins, and I hope it does.

[William Henderson]

They could create a mullet option – an optional disc fork for $100 more, standard frame with rim brakes in the back. Most of the practical benefits of disc brakes come from the front end, and the resulting irreverence and lack of symmetry would be quite Rivendellian IMO.

William

Sent from my iPhone

On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 11:32 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

At this point all disc talk is howling at the moon, the bike has v-brakes. If it sells well everybody wins, and I hope it does.

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[S]

I agree the ship has sailed on the Gus Boots, but I think whether or not Rivendell should ever make a disc bike is an interesting question. I don’t have an answer. And maybe it is just too contentious a topic to discuss on this forum. If Grant was open to disc brakes, however, I would be curious to know what the employees said to convince him otherwise.

[lconley]

Google 2018 Tour de France winning bicycle. Do you see disc brakes? No, you don't. If you are barreling down a mountain in Europe at 60+ mph and disc brakes were actually superior to rim brakes, you would have disc brakes on your bicycle because your life and career depend on them.

Laing Conley

Cocoa, FL - where all brakes are pretty much equal

[Daniel D.]

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 1:32:06 PM UTC-7, Collin A wrote:

Heyo,

Not sure if this was on people's radar or not, but it looks like there is a pair of GBW on the web specials page on Riv, for what I imagine will end up being a bargain. I'd grab one, but I am a wee bit too small for the medium, it looks like.

Happy Monday!

Collin A

[S]

Yes, Jan Heine wrote a post about that. In the first year that TdF riders were allowed to use disc brakes, they used them in just one TT stage, and only then because of pressure from the manufacturers.

[William Henderson]

I don't think anyone here is making the case that racing bikes with skinny tires should have disc brakes.

William

Sent from my iPhone

On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 1:56 PM, S <sbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, Jan Heine wrote a post about that. In the first year that TdF riders were allowed to use disc brakes, they used them in just one TT stage, and only then because of pressure from the manufacturers.

--

[Ryan M.]

I didn’t see anyone in the TDF on mountain bikes either.

Also, as soon as the UCI allowed discs in cyclocross races, everybody switched. It was two or three years and every racer was on discs, and that is because they are the better brake for the application.

[S]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. Iconley mentioned disc brakes in the TdF, and I remembered that Jan Heine had written a blog post about it. I thought some people here might enjoy reading Jan's post. No endorsement was meant.

Again, I haven't used disc brakes extensively and my subsequent reading has caused me to question my former opinion. I have no side in this argument.

On Tuesday, April 2, 2019 at 2:12:05 PM UTC-7, William! wrote:

I don't think anyone here is making the case that racing bikes with skinny tires should have disc brakes.

William

Sent from my iPhone

On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 1:56 PM, S <sbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, Jan Heine wrote a post about that. In the first year that TdF riders were allowed to use disc brakes, they used them in just one TT stage, and only then because of pressure from the manufacturers.

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[PaulS]

Mark in Beacon’s post makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the thoughtful post.

[ian m]

Of course talking about disc brakes on this bike is an exercise in futility, but it is interesting to consider their use in the industry today and in the future. For me, I look at a company like Crust Bikes and see more or less a humongous bite out of Riv's market share. The Evasion is basically a MIT Atlantis with disc brakes. The Romanceur looks like an earlier iteration Riv bike, just with disc brakes. Riv is now even using the same overhyped lifestyle icon as a marketing tool. Sure there's no reason for the two companies to be at odds, and some may say a rising tide lifts all boats, but it also seems like a HUGE loss and missed opportunity for Riv to have grown their ridership and offer bikes that obviously a lot of people are interested in riding.

[Max S]

Staying abroad for a bit and seeing a lot of electric "bikes" and scooters all over the place. All on disc brakes, most on small diameter wheels with fat tires, many making noise upon application. Extra weight of discs, "harsh ride", blah blah blah – all of that is mitigated by a kW-hrs of on-board free power. People ride those darn things in the roads, on sidewalks, with grocery bags and child seats... Some ride them to the train station, park them at the rack, yank out the battery pack, and go catch the train. Other two-wheeled commuters fold down the mast of their Bird electric scooter and get on. Those are folks with disposable income, or folks that don't have a car. People in the city riding regular human-powered bikes are poor students, and even those are switching to rent-by-the-minute electric scooters. 'Cos if we're really thinking "practicality," what people want is the quickest way of getting from A to B without getting sweaty. 

That whole market for "wheels" and two-wheeled vehicle accoutrements is growing much faster in the battery-powered segment than the regular human-powered bike market. Parts availability is driven by the scale of demand and growth... Light rims with brake surfaces seem to be on the wane compared to disc wheels – just a bit cheaper to make, multiplied by number of units. 

And it's really too bad, because for the pleasure of efficient riding of an optimally light, long-lived, trouble-free, human-powered velocipede, rim brakes and corresponding rims are a marvelously evolved system. Disc brakes are the equivalent of an SUV, if you ask me... Unnecessary and inelegant. Yes, they make it easier for occupants to get in and out, and give them a false sense of superiority / security by virtue of a higher perch, but tire traction remains the ultimate limiter, and waining driver attention even more so. To some extent, so are some of the overbuilt, double-tt Riv models, but there at least you're gaining longevity of service that will allow the bike to be perfectly (field) serviceable and casually inspectable 50 years from now. And that's more along the lines of what Riv is going for, so why gang up on them for it? Yes, there's maybe a continuum between curly lugs and tig-welded joints, between long-reach calipers (dual pivot is already a compromise, no?) and discs, but do we know how many sales is Riv really missing due to lack of disc brakes on GBW?.. Maybe a lot, and maybe that's also why BMW & Porsche started making SUVs, but that's just a temporary stop along the way of windowless, monitor-clad, self-driving pods with high bandwidth connections. 

Anyhow, if you really want a disc-equipped GBW, would it be that difficult to order a Surly or Soma fork for it and try it out?.. 

- Max "it's getting late here and I kinda want a Riv-made Brompton" 

[Jim Bronson]

The only bike I have that I think sucks without discs is my 90s Burley tandem.

On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, 08:38 Jonathan D. <jdone...@gmail.com> wrote:

As a reminder Grant was open to discs but the Riv team didn’t want them on this bike. I really admire their commitment to their vision and mission.  It is what makes Riv so great.

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[Abcyclehank]

Thought this was a new post. Almost had a heart attack. Planning to order an XL Gus; but would grab the demo if made available to ride until the full release and then gift the demo to a friend without a Riv.

Ryan Hankinson🤦🏻‍♂️
West Michigan

[RDS]

Has riv given a time estimate of when the gus frame/bikes will be available for purchase? This year or next year?

[Abcyclehank]

Today’s Riv email stated that they are awaiting the arrival of the Susies (lighter sub 165lb rider) version of Gus. Once tested the the presale will occur. It was earlier stated that the selected builder can complete 1.5 fillet frames a day. A large variable will be the number of bikes ordered by individuals, dealers, and RBW itself.
Super excited but equally patient. Just glad Riv and their special builds are still rolling out after 25 years.

Ryan Hankinson

[Ash]

I had a chance to ride the small Boots when I visited the world HQ last weekend.  The bike was real fun.  The design is natural evolution of Riv philosophy.  I'm 100% on board.  Except for out and out road biking, I think this bike can serve almost any other needs I can imagine. Touring, commuting, dirt, snow, haul stuff from Costco, around the town utility mobile, kid trailer hauler, take a kid on rack mounter seat, fire roads, crank a generator dynamo for emergency electricity,...

During my test/joy ride at one point there were kids on the trail.  I got off the trail and continue to peddle on the grass area.  The surface beneath grass was uneven.  Very bumpy!   But Boots would just float.  It was so much fun for next 10 mins I was going around on the grass field.

It is also the most upright friendly Riv IMO (this another big plus for me).  CAN'T WAIT!!

[Mark in Beacon]

Hi Ash. Thanks for the mini review. How does it compare to other Rivs? Have you had a chance to ride a Clem? Clemsters are quite upright friendly!

I spoke with a Riv spokesperson and I thought he said presale in September. But now it's starting to sound like possibly sooner, and maybe the actual bikes will be shipping at that time? Although it could take the better part of the summer to test the lighter bikes, so maybe that target date was...on target. Who knows, but I am preparing by selling some stuff to build up the bike fund account.

[Joe Bernard]

Ash, how "upright" is the build on that Boots? I'm pretty much out of the game for regular bikes now - I'm currently riding a Crank Forward semi-recumbent - because of arthritis in my right hand, but am hopeful I can find a workaround eventually. It might be worth a trip to RBW to take a spin on that bike if the riding position sounds workable to me.

[Wally Estrella]

"It was earlier stated that the selected builder can complete 1.5 fillet frames a day."

Here's one hour of the reason why.  From Brian at Chapman Cycles

https://www.instagram.com/p/By8C2DPldjC/

[Mark in Beacon]

There are different levels of finish for fillet brazing. I understand the Lyon/Norther bikes are mostly Jeff just laying in the brass, not much filing. I have an old Viscount where they obviously left it completely raw (and some pinholes, boo.) I would imagine the Hilli-builder would do some cleaning up and a bit of finishing, but perhaps not to the level of a $3,000 custom bicycle.

But yeah, fillet brazing bicycles by hand takes time. And no doubt the builder Riv is using is good.

[Deacon Patrick]

Here's a wee preview of this past week's adventure, Boots in his element in full gear. Bottom line is I have to recalibrate what is ridable. The geometry and plus tires are a delightful combination ... https://snap.as/me/photos/WUrbNiF

With abandon,
Patrick

[Mike Williams]

So what rims are you using Deacon, Velocity cliffhangers?

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[Deacon Patrick]

Aye, Mike.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Andrew Letton]

Such a tease! Looking forward to more photos of that adventure!

cheers,

Andrew in Oz

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[Ash]

Hi Mark,

Here's the list of Rivendell's I have either owned or had a chance to ride - Sam 51, Appaloosa 46 & 51, Clem 45, Atlantis 50 and Homer 47.5  

Boots is on the Appaloosa/Atlantis/Clem end of the spectrum.  The ride feels relatively more 'stable' (likely because the small size fits me better than other Riv's I've tried/owned).  It is hard for me to put other subtle differences into words :)

Ash