Cargo e-bikes are an amazing concept, but the options are imperfect

[Kolby]

Hi all, 

Looking for some help/feedback on the topic of cargo e-bikes -- not specifically whether they are a good idea or not, but about specific designs currently out there and what I should be looking for. Here's the background:

I'm soon moving from Brooklyn to Austin, and as I'll need a second car I figured I might finally get that cargo bike I've always wanted instead. I have two younger kids and will likely have a commute of 15ish miles daily. 

As soon as I started looking around, I quickly realized that Bosch motors are taking over the Cargo category. Even though I'd never ridden an e-bike, this made sense to me. I mean, it's kinda fun hauling my kid, my gear, and myself up hills on my Atlantis, but sometimes it's just joyless drudgery and I'd rather be driving. So the ebike was interesting. (Several test rides later and I think it's probably the best hope of getting most people out of cars and onto bikes, but that's another topic! :))

So I started looking at the options. It just so happens that Surly released a cargo e-bike this month: The Big Easy, which carries 400 pounds and goes 20 mph.

My LBS had a Big Easy for test rides, so I took it out. After 30 mins I was having so much fun I called to say I need another 30 mins at least. I went all over my neighborhood, and on "trails" in Prospect Park. I put an adult friend on the back and we easily cruised up a hill at 15 mph. It was a total blast, and it had a great ride and feel in all situations--it felt like one of my own. It was kind of a bone shaker, but softer tires with less air would fix that, I figured.

Then I started looking closer at the Surly, and I disappointment set in: the kickstand isn't a double (really!?), it uses quick releases instead of thru axles on a bike that hauls 400 pounds (this seems unwise, right?), and the extra battery is under the bottom bracket for some reason. Even more annoying, Surly, true to the name, doesn't make it easy to add a kid seat or lights. That would be understandable if it were cheaper, but it's $5k -- the same price as the Xtracycle eswoop and the Tern CSD, both of which come with lights, fenders, etc and assume you'll likely be adding a kid seat or something else like that. 

Annoyed, I took the Tern and Xtracycle out for rides, but ... both had a terrible ride quality IMO. I wouldn't enjoy either on a daily or even semi regular basis. Mostly it's due to the fact that they only come in one size, which of course just doesn't work. (The Surly comes in S, M, L.)

Lastly, I took a look out a Riese and Muller (front bucket style). Specifically, the Load and Packster models. They are quite expensive ($7k+), however they're available used for about the price of the Surly and others. They have suspension and the ride is both unfamiliar but also very stable and buttery smooth. The downside of the Riese seems to be all the moving parts that make the magic happen, or so it seems to me -- more potential points of failure. And it also comes in just one size, which also feels too small. But overall I liked it and could ride it for hours a day happily, I think. 

(Note: the size and kinds of cargo that can be carried by the Surly and the Riese & Muller really is different, but in my case both satisfy my needs sufficiently that this isn't a factor for my decision.) 

So, RBW peeps, I realize that Cargo e-bikes are very UN-Riv, however, I trust there are some open minded folks out there with good input or ideas on how to proceed. None of these options are ideal -- far from it. But last I checked Grant has no plans for a cargo e-bike, so I'm stuck with either the lazy and unhelpful Surly, which requires a lot of mods but seems the best platform; or the front loading Riese and Muller, which seems amazing but is so different than anything I know or have had that it makes me uncomfortable. 

Thanks for any help

Kolby

[David Bivins]

I don't know if this helps, but I bought the Tern/Xtracycle Cargo Node
via Kickstarter in 2016, and it's great. I love it, and my 8, then 9,
then 10-year-old passenger on the back loves it, too. It is not
electric, but it has a dyno-hub and front and back lights. So if you
find something in that geometry but with a battery, check it out. We
love it. It has quick releases, but you can change that easily.

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[Matt]

Mine's a vote for the bakfiets-style cargo bike:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xENfGHN8LJikNpVx5

I've had my VanAndel/Workcycles for ten years now and I love:

- that the kids and the load is up front

- that it feels like riding on a rail

Chatting with the kids and watching things go by is so much nicer with them up front, you never have to turn around. It makes a huge difference. I love the way it handles, too, both loaded and unloaded. It's not as nimble as a long tail, but each style has its advantages. Really just depends on what your priorities are. I can't speak to any other model but the Workcycles one is absolutely bomb proof. Mine's ten years old—it spent two years outside—and I've had it tuned up exactly once a few years back and it still rides like new.

I got mine before the dawn of the Bosch, but I did have a chance to test ride the same model with electric assist and my (much older) kids in it recently when a shop near by was closing. All I can say is I sure wish I'd had that assist back in the day. The bike is 100 lbs unloaded, so add kids and groceries and you're putting in some WORK. But you know what? It's not a badge of honor. I would have taken them to many more places if I could have gotten there more quickly and not absolutely drenched in sweat. 

I love my regular bikes but for commuting and cargo? Give me that assist any day of the week. I can still ride and I can replace a car.

[Eric Daume]

My experience for Surlys is that they are a platform for customizing, moreso than any other bike I've had. So don't expect the stock spec to work 100%, but the base is good and very adaptable.

Eric

down to just one Surly at the moment

On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 10:26 PM Kolby <kol...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Lynn Haas]

I test rode a Yuba Spicy Curry a few years ago. If we ever go back down to one car (unlikely) that's what I would go for.

Definitely get something with a throttle. eBikes are super heavy and uphill starts suck.

Looks like you know what to look for, but I'll add the mention anyway - with eBikes, the tech is still expensive and manufacturers frequently cut component quality to make a price point. I personally would not consider an eBike with an MSRP of less than $4k.

I work at BikeTexas here in Austin. Shoot me an email when you get here and we can take our Atlantii and go for a beer. We seem to have a surprising number of Riv bikes here in town.

[Kolby]

I appreciate the replies and input. It's very helpful. Thanks!

[Joe Bernard]

Check out this mid-drive cargo trike from Sycip Designs I found on Ely's Instagram. Note u-lock install on the front 👍

https://www.instagram.com/p/BvF9w3-gthr/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=zggq1gtc3loo

[William!]

My family has owned an Edgerunner (non-electric), Spicy Curry and now a Tern GSD. They are all great bikes and played a major part in allowing us to remain car free with two kids.

Here’s my take:
- Get something with a Bosch system. Incredibly smooth, plenty of power (no issues hauling adult passengers up hills) and reliable.
- The small wheel factor of the GSD takes a bit of getting used to, but it makes the bike far more practical for daily use. At $4k the base model GSD is also the best deal for a Bosch-equipped cargo bike. It is extremely well design - thru axels, adjustable bars, good integrated lighting and many other nice details.
- Pay as much attention to the accessories as you do the bike (especially if you plan to haul children). The racks, bags, kickstand, and platforms available will play a huge part in how useful, flexible and cumbersome a carp bike is. And unlike with normal bikes, there is little interoperability. Currently I give Tern and Xtracycle the highest marks for accessorie design.
- A test ride is not enough. See if the shop will rent you the bike, ideally for a week. You need to see how it fits into your life, how easy it is to do various tasks, how much the kids like it, etc.

Good luck!
William

[Deacon Patrick]

William, this is brilliant! “See if the shop will rent you the bike, ideally for a week. You need to see how it fits into your life, how easy it is to do various tasks, how much the kids like it, etc.”

Yes. Nothing beats climbing and descending your hills with your loads. You know them, how they feel, and there is no way to approximate that without a “week in the life of” to know if it works for you or not. Good luck, though, being able to do that. The “rental” fee for us with our cargo bike (Haul-a-day) was the depreciation between buying it (no way to test ride) and selling it (shipping both to buy and sell because, being the mountains, we are in a non-cargo bike friendly market) after a few years of dwindling use because it didn’t fit our needs as we’d imagined.

With abandon,
Patrick

[David Bivins]

Great point on the accessories, William. My Tern/Xtracycle Cargo Node
came with the Tern Kanga rack on the front which is extremely useful. I also
keep a "Captain Hook" elastic net on the back so I can tie something
down to the back deck if I'm not hauling my kid to a soccer game. The
Xtracycle bags can have a lot going on with all those straps, but I'm
happy to spend 10-15 minutes fiddling with straps so that I can carry
what would normally go in the back of a station wagon.

[Ron Mc]

I watched What's Up Doc the other day, and forgot how hilarious that movie is.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZJhF-eT0MI

[Kolby]

Excellent advice and tips here, William. Thanks! 

[Surlyprof]

I had the opportunity to test ride a Butchers and Bicycles MK1-E in Copenhagen and it was a blast.  It is a three-wheeler and they are not cheap but the leaning in the turns was a lot of fun.  It uses the Bosch drive which someone pointed out is good.  I don't know if they have a US distributor or not, but I have seen one on the streets of Berkeley before.  Here's their site (I suggest watching the videos):  https://www.butchersandbicycles.com/  and https://www.butchersandbicycles.com/videos.html

Found a video review too:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6i9owGca4k

John

[Steven Seelig]

Late to party.

We were among the first to get the Xtracycle Edgerunner, and it was fun to be stared at riding through DC as some sort of clown wagon, before such things became the norm.  While you may find the ride to be weird, harsh, plowy, etc., the simple fact is that you will be hauling moving kids on the back of a bike.  Not much to say except that the bike needs to maintain its integrity under a wide variety of conditions so to expect a road bike aesthetic like a Riv is not in the cards.

Consider that the Xtracycle has a 20 inch rear wheel, which means the kids are lower to the ground, the wheel is stronger and that it may be easier to accelerate from a stop.  Or at least that was the consideration I made when getting the non-electric version.

Also consider that Xtracycle provides tremendous customer service, or at least they did for me.  When my first generation center stand wore out, I expressed sadness about the prior design and joy about the new version to the customer service rep.  She immediately offered to send me the new style center stand for free, mostly because they improved upon the old design and believed that as an early adopter, I should get the benefit of that improvement.  I cannot over emphasize how important having a stable center stand will be for using the bike, and would assure you that not having that so the bike can sit by itself with a kid on it and not fall over is REQUIRED.

The rear rack system works pretty great with the hooptie for two kids.

Finally, because this was a non-electric version I bought, I cannot comment on the Bosch although I hear it is great.  I did install an aftermarket mid-drive motor as my kid got bigger and my legs failed to keep pace.  They do come in different sizes, BTW.

On Saturday, March 16, 2019 at 10:26:31 PM UTC-4, Kolby wrote:

[Tom Wyland]

I would recommend reaching out to a shop like BikeShopGirl in Denver.  The focus on electric kid-carrying bikes.  I'm sure there are more like-minded shops in other cities as well.  Finding out lessons learned from others is key because you only have kids that are carrying age for a few years. 

Tom

[Matt]

Plus one for the center stand (which the bakfiets has in spades). You will never be able to control the climbing in and out factor without it & they will climb when you’re least ready

[masmojo]

I would suggest the Radpower bike they sell direct through their website. Normally not something I'd encourage, but I normally wouldn't encourage ebikes either.
It's the one I've been looking at; it's not terribly sophisticated, but it has a decent reputation and the price is right. The way I figure it, it's a good way to get your feet wet, if you like it you can upgrade later and the technology is improving, in a couple years anything you buy will be obsolete anywayz.

[William Henderson]

Another plus one on the center stand. Xtracycle has this nailed. This is probably the worst thing about the Tern, but thankfully there is an aftermarket center stand available (for major $$).

William

Sent from my iPhone

On Mon, Mar 18 2019 at 6:25 PM, <matt.r...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus one for the center stand (which the bakfiets has in spades). You will never be able to control the climbing in and out factor without it & they will climb when you’re least ready

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[Doug Van Cleve]

Not sure cargo bikes are for me, and pretty sure eBikes are not for me, but I always thought the Bullitt was pretty darn cool and there are a couple e-versions of it now:  http://www.larryvsharry.com/steps-ebullitt-technical-info/.  It does use some kind of Shimano system, so maybe that is sub-optimal...

Doug

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[Ash]

Thank you Ron!  

This clip made my day.  Showed it to everyone in the family!

[Edwin W]

One more to consider: the Workcycles fr8 V8. I have had all non electric assists: Yuba mundo, bakfiets and fr8 so can only speak to the bike design. I think the fr8 is the most bike like and most likely to be ridden without a big load like 1-3 kids. It is a nice one to have as the kids grow out of riding with you (though my 12 year old will still catch a ride on it).
But since you are talking long distances and hot weather etc.. an assist makes sense and so think of the V8 version. German motor (not Bosch but workcyckes only uses really good parts) and lights, fenders etc. are included. Great add ons like racks (get a front and rear) and child seat in between you and the handlebars: the favorite spot for all of my kids and the best handling.
Now, a rest ride for a week makes so much sense and you might not be able to do that, which is a huge drawback.

Let us know what you get,

Edwin

[Ron Mc]

you're welcome - fresh in my humor, it was all I could think of when the topic came up...

[John McBurney]

Look around here. There is a pretty sophisticated cargo e bike scene in Portland and these guys are real pros. 

https://www.splendidcycles.com

John 

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[ccli...@gmail.com]

Edwin,

I’m jumping in here after following this thread - the fr8 looks great! We’re looking for a car replacement cargo bike and the v8 looks like a winner.

I’ve checked with Workcycles and they won’t ship ebikes internationally but it looks like converting one with a bafang kit or similar wouldn’t be too difficult.