Speak to me about front loading and rear loading

[Patrick Moore]

Chauncey Matthews built me a pair of nice front lowriders, and I used them today with about 9 lb distributed across both sides. This slowed the steering noticeably but not annoyingly; but I daresay that adding 10 more lb a side would do something to the steering I don't like.

Steve, at the bike shop, said his rule is "70% front;" he has a Soma randonneur. 

I'm used to carrying up to 40 lb on stiff rear racks; this is not ideal, particularly on the just-modified '03, and that is why I asked for front lowriders, so I could distribute the loads more equitably.

My idea of good distribution is 40 lb more or less max load for this bike) minus what feels good in back = what I put in front; and that would be ~30 rear and 10 front.

Nice Petersenian road geometry.

What do you (individually and collectively) opine on the subject?

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

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[John Hawrylak]

Patrick

Is the "Soma radonneur" you refer to wrt Steve, the Grand Radonneur??  If so, it has low trial (29 mm) while the Rivs have probably 55 to 65 mm of trail.  On the Soma GR, 70%of the weight in the front would make sense.  Bike Touring News posted this article about loading low trail (Gilles Berthoud) and high trail (AHH) and my takeaway was low trail needs the weight up front.  They were less specific about the high trial.

Hope this helps

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ. 

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 8:53:51 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

John: yes, just looked up the Soma bike and it is indeed the low trail "Grand Randonneur." I wonder just how much up front on my Petersenian custom is ideal. I suppose I can always do the experimental work myself.

Still, I'd like to hear from others about their front/rear divide opinions -- I know that some of y'all put 100 lb in Wald Newsboy baskets on your Hunqs, Bombs, and Atlantises.

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[John Hawrylak]

Patrick

Here is the link to the Bike Touring News article, I forgot to copy it in the 1st post

http://biketouringnews.com/bike-touring-tips/how-to-load-a-touring-bike/

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, John. This confirms my suspicion and prejudice that on the '03 the fronts should be used (1) only for light (sub 20 lb for both sides) loads, and (2) for overflow from the main rear load.

I will continue to experiment.

Anecdote: a few years ago, when I owned a Sam Hill (56, single tt, cantis) I had lowrider mounts brazed on and installed Duos. Just to try things, I loaded my fronts with ~30 or more lb. I could barely turn the bike!

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[dougP]

Patrick:

I've played with loading quite a bit myself and have spoken with lots of bicycle tourists.  The Big Message is the number of variables is large enough that you'll have play around with it, perhaps quite a bit.  Personally, Steve-at-the-bike-shop's recommendation is close to my preference of 60% front.  My Atlantis has a Tom Matchak fork with 40mm of trail.  Stock was I think 65mm.  If I'm doing a 4 bag trip then I do try to spread it around.  But for a lodging tour with only 2 bags they can go either end.  Long trip, worth messing with, I'll put on the front rack & carry them there.  Overnighter I'll just hang 'em on the rear rack & put with whatever tail wag it causes.  No biggie.  So in the 2 bag case I'm loading 100% of the weight on one end or the other.  A 2 bag lodging tour only needs perhaps 25lbs total, and an S240 something similar. 

To me, the bike is more stable / less agile with the front load.  Rear is noticeable but nothing weird.  Racks are a Tubus Cosmo rear & Duo front.  I always have my little Nitto front rack & Acorn bag on the Atlantis, & have loaded up the Acorn well in excess of Rivendell recommendations.  No worries. 

Front panniers seem less affected by crosswinds but more sensitive to ground clearance. 

dougP

[Clayton]

 I found carrying stuff on the top of the rear rack irritating. It made getting into the panniers a pain. After years of trying every kind of setup, I found one I am happy with. I was running the typical setup, small panniers in the front and large in the rear, with bag and tent on top of the rear rack. Lots of shimmy. I eventually bought the large Nitto front rack and large Ortliebs for the front.  On the front, my sleeping  bag goes in one, tent in the other and the top of the rear rack remains clear, for tent poles and Tenkara rod. There is enough room in the front for overflow food etc. On pavement it is more stable. I can access all my panniers without frustration.   I just ordered Albatross bars due to hand issues and hope that they work well with this setup.

     

    Claytonious Q (Bend) 

[Patrick Moore]

Doug: thanks for this analysis; I suppose that my Riv must have more trail than your Matchak Atlantis, so that it will be even more sensitive to front loads. And I suppose too that it simply takes a bit of getting used to front loads if one hasn't much experience with them.

Clayton: What bike are you describing? I assume it's a Riv, perhaps a Sam Hill? And it sounds as if your front loads are high bulk but relatively low weight. 

My own uses are largely shopping loads, typically dense (12 bottle pack of IPA is dense). One variable may be my rear rack: it's not a Tubus, though the design somewhat imitates the Fly. The Fly was, despite its 11 oz weight, immensely rigid. My customs may well be less so.

'Nother question: riding home from Stevie's yesterday, south almost 9 miles, with the Packer Sportses in front, I thought I noticed more aero drag against the southerly headwind. I know Jan Heine has claimed less drag for large rando bags than for saddlebags or (I believe) rear panniers; but I daresay that these latter give less than front lowriders?

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[clayton bailey]

Patrick, 

You are correct, my panniers have more bulk than weight on the front rack while touring. I live without a car, and like you, I carry heavy loads. My bike is a 26" wheeled Rivendell Atlantis (1998 era) and I run 2.20" tires. The trail on my 26" fork  is designed optimally for a much smaller tire. With a heavy front load, on single track, it gets a little floppy. ( I am hoping the Albatross bars I just ordered will give me more control on single track than drops). For heavy grocery runs, on pavement, I try to have the panniers balanced within ten pounds of each other, with the weight primarily in the rear. I frequently never make that goal. It did take me a bit to get used to the heavy front end, but I just go slow and think like an Aircraft Carrier. Aerodynamics: Basically, anytime the air is impeding my forward progress, no matter if I am naked on a road bike, or if I am all aero fluffy and loaded (down), I am muttering under my breath (with more swear words), "Grumble, stupid wind, I wish my bike was more aero, stupid wind...go away wind.." I thought about it, and realized I mutter no matter what is going on with the aerodynamics of my bike, so I decided, what's the difference? I bitch no matter what, so now I don't worry about aerodynamics. My touring load, including all four large panniers, minus water and food is only about fifteen to eighteen pounds. My shopping loads have hit around eighty pounds or more. I am always fiddling and trying different racks, bags and load configurations and so far, this has worked the best. Photo shows on of my unsuccessful set ups I tried just starting out in touring, with homemade panniers. Too much weight in the rear.

Clayton (Bend)

[EGNolan]

I've found that when I changed h'bars to albas or boscoes I could carry much more on the front end without affecting handling when compared to drops. Loading the rear only with all my weight back there makes the bike pretty squirrely. I've found this to be true with my Raleigh International & Handsome XOXO, neither a Riv, but both similar in geometry... Just my two cents, but I bet if you're riding a higher trail bike w/ drops & a bit of your weight up front, you'll want more weight in back panniers.

Best,

Eric

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm just waiting for the day when Patrick Moore decides to fret over the real problem:  the weight of groceries. 

Imagine how sprightly your rig would be if you could pack 40 pounds of caloric content into 25 pounds of groceries.  There are certainly beverages that will deliver the punch of a 12 pack of IPA at a fraction of the weight (and still be very tasty to drink).  The "gram-shaving-grocery-getter" is the next-level personna that I'm waiting to see.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/02/2015 05:16 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

I'm just waiting for the day when Patrick Moore decides to fret over the real problem:  the weight of groceries. 

Imagine how sprightly your rig would be if you could pack 40 pounds of caloric content into 25 pounds of groceries.  There are certainly beverages that will deliver the punch of a 12 pack of IPA at a fraction of the weight (and still be very tasty to drink). 

Here's a choice of tasty light-weight beverages that will pack plenty of punch for their small size and weight:

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 1:24:57 PM UTC-7, EGNolan wrote:

I've found that when I changed h'bars to albas or boscoes I could carry much more on the front end without affecting handling when compared to drops. Loading the rear only with all my weight back there makes the bike pretty squirrely. I've found this to be true with my Raleigh International & Handsome XOXO, neither a Riv, but both similar in geometry... Just my two cents, but I bet if you're riding a higher trail bike w/ drops & a bit of your weight up front, you'll want more weight in back panniers.

Best,

Eric

[Bill Lindsay]

Exactly.  A 12-pack is when you've already given up on lightweight and are running a Wald basket with zipties (NTTAWWT).  A fine sipping whisky is much more efficient on a custom cycle with custom bespoke racks.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/02/2015 05:43 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> Exactly. A 12-pack is when you've already given up on lightweight and
> are running a Wald basket with zipties (NTTAWWT). A fine sipping
> whisky is much more efficient on a custom cycle with custom bespoke
> racks.
>

and a Mason jar of White Lightning for those DUI-Guy bikes with the drop
bars turned around backwards...

[Patrick Moore]

Nice panniers! And what is that chainring/crankset? And how do you like the susp seatpost?

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[Patrick Moore]

Odd, the best rear load carrying bike I've owed was that 1973 Motobecane: very light, standard gauge tubing, but long stays and a very rigid Fly rack.

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[Patrick Moore]

Bottles, hell. This is my next persona:

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/02/2015 07:13 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:

Bottles, hell. This is my next persona:

One pill makes you larger and one pill make you small....

[clayton bailey]

Thanks Patrick. This is an old picture, around 2006. The crankset is a Profile Racing CNC mountain bike crankset from the nineties. I have had three back surgeries and a quality suspension seatpost is a must. Indispensable. They are severely under rated. I have been using them since the eighties and am a huge fan. They are more than worth the weight. I save a tremendous amount of energy, by not having to rise slightly out of the saddle at every bump. I didn't realize how much I unconsciously unweighted the saddle, until I didn't have to. I get panicky when I think about the quality suspension seat post market. It is disappearing. USE has disappeared, Rock Shox quit making them and White Brothers sold their design, which has been my favorite. When my USE wears out, I'll probably go to a short travel Cane Creek, which deeply offends my sense of form. I like the looks and performance of telescoping suspension seat post, over the parallelogram. My Atlantis is by far the most comfortable bike I have ever owned  (with a high quality post). I have had nightmares of it being stolen and waking up in a cold sweat screaming. (Not really). 

Clayton (light load)

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[Liesl]

Late to this thread, but I'll chime in anyway. I am a grocery-getter-biker and since I've made the switch to mostly EBDJ, my food loads are lumpy and heavy: coconut, cheese, Greek yogurt, all manner of meats, nuts, peppers, eggs, zucchini, squashes, milk, cream, coconut oil....an occasional bottle of wine. Now is also a time when we indulge in local fruit and musk melon is a current fav. All to say awkward lumpy and heavy.

I haul on the long custom with boscos and 55mm tires as follows: HARs up front with big round awkward things like melon, squash, coconuts and smaller items on top. Nitto mini front rack with med wald and Shopsack. Light fragile things like eggs and soft fruit. Longboy nitto rear rack with Sackville Backabikes. Milk, cream, cheese, meats, coffee all generally go back here with nothing on the top of the rack.

Bike handles superbly. Stable as can be. Makes me grin every time I do it, which is often. Better than the Saluki would. I have no idea what my trail is, but my chainstays are 55cms.

I am mostly immune to noticing aero other than to hate a headwind whenever it's blowing. Yes I can feel it catch bags but which ones? You got me!

Liesl

[dougP]

 "I found carrying stuff on the top of the rear rack irritating. It made getting into the panniers a pain"

Same here.  One solution is a rear rack with lower rails for the panniers, freeing up the platform area for independent loading & unloading, making the whole thing less of Rubik's cube.  Tubus has a couple of racks and the latest Nittos from Rivendell have added a lower rail.  Large objects on the rack platform can still get in the way of pannier access but it's less of a problem. 

dougP

[Brian Campbell]

Timely thread. I recently took the Mark's rack, large Acorn handle bar bag and headlight off of my AHH. I shifted the load to as saddle mounted bag (Sackville medium), mounted the headlight on the front fender and the change has been fantastic. I feel that the bike is performing more in line with it's design, quicker steering, better balance in corners and an over "spritely-ness" that was missing previously.

[Jim Bronson]

I can honestly say that I have never seen that much toilet paper or that many rolls of paper towels strapped to a bike.  Were you traveling with a group?

Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[clayton bailey]

Jim, 

That was a run to the grocery store. Without a car, you do whatcha gotta do. I have carried four 8' 2X4s vertically once, strapped down to my rack.  With all the weight swaying around so far above, I was swerving and it was very unnerving.  The loads the folks in Asia carry on bikes shows what is possible. 

Clayton Bend

[Lungimsam]

Clayton. If they stop making suspension posts you could try a sprung saddle.