New Bike Day--R05C0 8U883 Medium Mountain Mixte

[Bill Lindsay]

I picked up my Rosco Bubbe Medium Mountain Mixte frameset today and threw it right on the stand. 

1.  grind off the lawyer lips
2.  wrap the lift-a-tube
3.  install the wheels, saddle and cockpit for an initial mock-up (photo above)

Then I hung the drivetrain on there.  It's going to be a 2x10 contemporary Shimano setup.  The super-weirdo thing I decided to do was BOLT ON wheels.  I've been saying for a while that QR wheels are a historical accident and none of us really need them.  The reason we all run them is that's what everybody expects.  So I put my "money" where my "mouth" is.  More to come....

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[WETH]

Sweet!

[drew]

Red lugged(?) stem. What/how?

[Jay Connolly]

I love it.

Jay

[Irreguleur]

I fully agree with your QR stance. Awesome build-keep us updated!

[Joe Bernard]

Well then. I never knew I needed a red lugged stem, but here we are!

[Bill Lindsay]

A couple people commented on my red/orange lugged Nitto stem. 

I used to have a 56cm Bombadil.  I bought it 'off the rack'.  It was powdercoated orange.  When I got it, they also got a batch of Bullmoose bars powdercoated in the same colors, so I managed to get a bullmoose bar that matched my Bombadil exactly. 

Later, as always happens, I decided to set up a drop bar cockpit.  I needed a 9cm stem for the really long TT of the Bombadil.  Jay showed me a Tech DLX and a Nitto lugged stem in standard dullbright, and also showed me a raw Nitto lugged stem.  He said "we'll paint it for you, no extra charge".  I couldn't pass that up, so I chose the raw one.  A couple weeks later I picked it up and it was WAY too yellow.  Jay said, "well, that sucks, let me try again".  The second time around it was close, but a little too red.  I just took it, and nobody seemed to notice.  When I sold my Bombadil, the buyer didn't want the not-matching Nitto lugged stem, and it's been sitting in the bin.  I thought about trying to sell it, but what would anyone pay for a weird red-orange $220 stem?  Besides it has sentimental value. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 6:06:01 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

Red lugged(?) stem. What/how?

[Jonathan D.]

So does this mean a new goal of 200 miles on 11 bikes? Thanks for the pictures.

[Bill Lindsay]

Jonathan D asked if this is Bike #11.

No, my ten bike goal included this bike. It was always part of the plan.

BL in EC

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Congrats on the bike Bill!  I'm gathering parts as we speak for my build up.  I can't do it myself (lack of knowledge, talent, etc) but my LBS is great and they are doing it.  Just ordered the tires yesterday.

[Bill]

I'd try to find bar tape for the lift-a-tube to match the stem color. It's already looking like a fun machine, however I hope there's a front rack and basket in its future. In a word, APPROVE.

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Thanks!  I'm working on that aspect for the lift-a-tube.  My handlebars are going to be the Velo Orange Klunker bars with cork Ergon grips so I'd go tan there.

[drew]

Chris, is there a quill stem with a removable faceplate in 25.4?

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Drew there are two - one being Nitto and the other being a Factory Five Titan stem which is actually a 31.8 but would use a shim.  What my mechanic is doing for me though is using a threadless stem with a quill adapter.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I guess I really don't need it, but I find QRs to be convenient and a nice plus. What gives? Security concerns?

[Justin, Oakland]

I feel like Thru axles are essentially frame integrated bolt ons.

-J

[Bill Lindsay]

Benz asked :  "What gives? Security concerns?"

I'm not sure what exactly you are asking when you ask "what gives?"  Nothing gives.  QRs are sufficient to hold wheels on, in most situations.  I have QR wheels on most of my bikes.  They are fine.  I have nothing against QRs, far from it.  I'm just pointing out that the only people who NEED them are people with a team car following them.  I carry the tools I need to do the mechanical things I need to do.  A wrench to loosen a 15mm axle nut is just one tool in the kit. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

I tend to agree with this, Bill. I have various bikes with various forms of boltage, and would prefer to never worry about a QR being incorrectly tightened or accidentally knocked open. They work well enough to not replace, but they're kinda pointless.

[Patrick Moore]

Nice setup so far. Be sure to post final build photos (please).

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

****************************************************************************************

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[Ann L]

Gorgeous bike.  I love the orange and red accents against the blue frame.

[Bill Lindsay]

Patrick Moore very politely requested final build photos.  Nothing is ever "final", of course, but here we are. 

Frameset: Rosco Bubbe Medium Mountain Mixte.  54cm center to top of seat lug. 59.2cm effective top tube.  Appaloosa 650B fork.  IRD headset.

Wheelset:  Shimano Deore XT Parallax M-737 hubs, 32 hole, converted to bolt-on Cro-mo axles.  Velocity Synergy rims, custom powdercoated with HALO retroreflective coating.  Duro Miner 52mm tires.  Tubes. 

Drivetrain:  XTR M985 crankset and BB.  172.5mm arms.  44/30 chainrings.  Shimano CX70 front der.  Deore XT M786 rear der.  SRAM 1071 chains (2).  Microshift 10sp index barcons.  11-36 Deore 10sp cassette.  SPD pedals

Components:  Tektro CR720 brakes.  SRAM S500 brakelevers.  Nitto lugged stem and 46cm Noodle bars.  Kalloy seatpost.  Niner saddle.  Nitto rear hanger.  Tektro crown-mount front hanger.  Reflective brake housing. 

Accessories:  Simworks front rack, Wald basket, Sapphire Shopsack.  Two King Cages (one Iris).  Lots of Newbaums (orange, grey, and celeste)  + two coats of clear Bullseye shellac. 

When the second coat of shellac dries I'll get to ride it around the block.  It turned out exactly like I planned, which is nice. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Paul Clifton]

That is a very cool bike, Bill. Very very cool.
I'm having trouble not cussing about how cool it is.

I can't wait to see photos of it out on the trails.

Paul in ATL

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks you. I could ride one of those!

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[Bill Lindsay]

I have in reserve a sapphire blue Flite saddle from ~1997, and I thought about running that to tie in with the Shopsack.  With a Flite saddle on it, I imagine I could get an even higher PMAQ (Patrick Moore Approval Quotient).  If this Niner generic saddle isn't perfect, then I'll switch to the Flite or a Black B-17 that is also on-hand. 

BL in EC 

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:55:05 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

Thanks you. I could ride one of those!

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Patrick Moore very politely requested final build photos.  Nothing is ever "final", of course, but here we are. 

Frameset: Rosco Bubbe Medium Mountain Mixte.  54cm center to top of seat lug. 59.2cm effective top tube.  Appaloosa 650B fork.  IRD headset.

Wheelset:  Shimano Deore XT Parallax M-737 hubs, 32 hole, converted to bolt-on Cro-mo axles.  Velocity Synergy rims, custom powdercoated with HALO retroreflective coating.  Duro Miner 52mm tires.  Tubes. 

Drivetrain:  XTR M985 crankset and BB.  172.5mm arms.  44/30 chainrings.  Shimano CX70 front der.  Deore XT M786 rear der.  SRAM 1071 chains (2).  Microshift 10sp index barcons.  11-36 Deore 10sp cassette.  SPD pedals

Components:  Tektro CR720 brakes.  SRAM S500 brakelevers.  Nitto lugged stem and 46cm Noodle bars.  Kalloy seatpost.  Niner saddle.  Nitto rear hanger.  Tektro crown-mount front hanger.  Reflective brake housing. 

Accessories:  Simworks front rack, Wald basket, Sapphire Shopsack.  Two King Cages (one Iris).  Lots of Newbaums (orange, grey, and celeste)  + two coats of clear Bullseye shellac. 

When the second coat of shellac dries I'll get to ride it around the block.  It turned out exactly like I planned, which is nice. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:48:00 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

Nice setup so far. Be sure to post final build photos (please).

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[Justin August]

These bikes are so awesome. That is perfect.

Arg! I want.

-J

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[Philip Kim]

awesome build!

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 12:26:29 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Nicely done as always Bill!

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks all.

This bike features the new Silver tapered seat tube. It flares to 31.8mm about halfway down. Those of you who are assembling a build kit for your LBS to build might get caught off guard by that detail. The CX70 front derailleur Is a 31.8mm clamp with optional spacers so I was covered.

Over the years, whenever I look at a step through of this kind I imagine load wanting to fold the seat tube in half. This bike has an oversized lower seat tube and the liftatube anchoring the seat tube to the downtube. It puts me more at ease. I think it will be plenty stout for anything I might use it for.

My weekends are completely packed with activities so I won't be able to take it on the trails for a couple days

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca.

[Mark in Beacon]

This Rosco design is my favorite. But as you mention here, it is most definitely not a mixte. I suppose I am being picky, but curious as to why Rivendell chose this nomenclature for a bicycle design that does not have the extra set of seat stays, and is most definitely not a mixte frame. Why not call it the Mountain Roscolo, a la the Clem L and H designations? I know for pc reasons they couldn't choose, say Roscette, or Roscolina, since they received so much flak for Clementine. And the mixte designation makes it more appealing to the boys, who I suspect still shy away from the curved step-through design of the Clem Ls. Which brings me to another question: What are the effective geometry/other design differences between the MMMs and the Clem Ls (other than the lift a tube, which the Clem L already naturally possesses)? Shorter virtual top tube, so that drops can be used?

I once ran across a site that listed the (surprisingly numerous) various frame designs designated "ladies" over the years, with specific names for each of them. I think this Raleigh 3-speed style with the dropped top tube was called ladies sport or sport step over or something like that.

** I know that the popular translation of mixte is "unisex" in the bicycle application, but I don't see how this would be relevant back when the designation was originally made. I would go with the framebuilders of yore having meant mixte in the sense of "dual", as in two top tubes/seat stays. Of course, to fully complete the Riv logic, if you go with "mixte" as "unisex" and you use the Sheldon version of derailleur, you would call this a Mountain Unisex. But then you lose the alliteration, and unisex is not as sexy as mixte, despite [or because of] having sex in it already.

[Bill Lindsay]

I don't follow what point you are making. Rivendell hasn't adopted any particular nomenclature besides two. Rosco Bubbe and R05C0 8U883. They know what a Mixte is and know how bugged people get over the naming.

I refer to it as Medium Mountain Mixte just because of alliteration and to tell my two Bubbes apart. I know this is not a mixte and apologize to any offended parties that I got loose with terms just to make an MMM.

As far as differences from the Clem L the biggest difference is the Clem L is an actual Rivendell model. This bike is not. This was a tiny batch of frames to fit leftover forks. It was also an opportunity for Roman to get his feet wet with frame design.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[Jeremy Tavan]

On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 6:15:20 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:

Which brings me to another question: What are the effective geometry/other design differences between the MMMs and the Clem Ls (other than the lift a tube, which the Clem L already naturally possesses)? Shorter virtual top tube, so that drops can be used?

I was interested in this frame, and spoke with Roman on the phone about it briefly the other day. Versus my 52cm Clem (H, but I think the L has similar or identical geometry), the R05C0 8U883 not-exactly-a-mixte-but-whatever has a slightly shorter top tube (59 vs 61cm), somewhat shorter chainstays (don't remember the exact number), the Appaloosa fork instead of the Clem fork (so, slightly narrower max tire size), and no lugs except the fork crown. And, of course, it's  a not-exactly-a-mixte-but-whatever like the Cheviot, and not a full step-through like the Clem L. I wonder if the lifter tube adds enough stiffness down by the bottom bracket.

I found on my Clem H 52cm that I wasn't really comfortable with a dirt drop stem and handlebar, but it was a fairly close thing. It's possible that the R05C0 8U883 with dirt drop would work for me. But I'm pretty long-torsoed. Your mileage may vary. In the end, I decided I'm content with my Clem H for the purposes to which I put it, so I think I'm going to pass on getting in on the next batch of these - not different enough, though it's a very interesting frame and I look forward to seeing more of them built up. 

[Bill Lindsay]

Paul asked for shots of my new bike out on the trails.  Friday and Saturday were record-breakingly hot in the Bay Area, and I had family stuff going on, so I treated myself to two (TWO!) consecutive days off the bike.  Today will be warm, but nothing like the last two days, so I got out at dawn for my standard short trail loop through Wildcat Canyon:  Here's a couple shots of what trail riding is like for me:

This is Quarry Trail in Tilden Park.  It's stuff that you can definitely do with no shocks and drop bars, but it's no joke either.  On the dirt road surrounding Little Farm in Tilden there was a massive downed eucalyptus blocking the road

I was able to hike a bike around it.  My ride report is: holy $#!+ this is a super 27.5" mountain bike.  Step-through?  More like STOMP-through.  I'm blown away at what a nice riding mountain machine this is.  I thought it was going to be good for me looking at the numbers and such, but I'm truly blown away.  I picture a young Jacquie Phelan or John Tomac, or some other full-rigid-drop-bar mountain bike wizard absolutely shredding it with this bike.  I've been riding my ~$3500 carbon Niner a lot this month, and on my very first ride, I did the steep and technical Meadows Canyon climb only 20 seconds off my personal best, on a bike that it probably 8 pounds heavier.  In deference to the term-monitors, I've made up a new name for it.  I'm calling it "Trusty M.U.S.T.y"  Trusty Musty is a Mountain Utility Step Through. 

Rivendell wouldn't do something I told them to do unless they already thought it was a good idea, but I think they'd be smart to figure out a way to offer step through mountain bikes like this one.  It's a hoot.  I'm already thinking about how easy it will be to get on the bike when I have it loaded with front and rear panniers.  Step right through and giggle away!  As a late-entry into my stable, I was wondering if this was going to be a fit or more of a lark, but I think Trusty Musty is going to "mooooooove...right in"

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Carla Waugh]

Congrats Bill on your new bike and many happy miles/trails!

[Tony DeFilippo]

Bill that is a sweet build! Love all the touches and getting to see it in it's element. Definitely a bike with attitude.

[Mark in Beacon]

I was not particularly trying to make a point, just making light conversation/speculation. Sorry that apparently did not come across. Yes, I too know what the Rosco project is about. And I'm not offended by the term mixte being used. That would be silly. Nor did I think or imply that you or the folks at Rivendell don't know what constitutes a mixte. That would be silly, too. Rivendell/Grant has certainly referred to the Roscos with the dropped top tube as mixtes a number of times. Here's one instance:

https://www.facebook.com/rivbike/photos/a.158025017587688.34098.153481058042084/1332249110165267/?type=3

[Mark in Beacon]

Thanks, Jeremy, that answers my question. I suspected it probably had a shorter tt since it was not designed specifically for the Bosco bar. I think the look of the Rosco M is a bit more rugged/masculine than the Clem L.

[Joe Bernard]

Conversely, the Clem L has a more elegant, "dutch bike" look IMO. Which is a pleasant surprise for me: I've always liked Rivs and always liked step-through omafiets..I never thought I'd see the two converge.

[Bill Lindsay]

Mark explained he was not referring to the name Medium Mountain Mixte that I used in the subject line of this thread, but was referring to Rivendell's referential use of the term Mixte when describing a non-Mixte design

I think I understand better now. Thanks. Why would somebody who knows better deliberately use the wrong term to describe something? Is it marketing? Is it sloppiness? Did they forget?

If I had to guess I would say it was just convenient communication. Last month the path of the moon was just right that observers on earth could see it block out the sun. Almost everybody referred to that event as an eclipse, even though everyone who knows better knew full well that it was not an eclipse but an occultation. When you said "the eclipse" people knew what you were talking about, and little harm was done by using the incorrect term.

These eclipse/occultation/Mixte minutiae are fresh in my mind because last month Grant used the term 'eclipse' in a post and I called him on it, just for fun. When I went to pick up my frame, Grant called me on using the name Medium Mountain Mixte, also just for fun. That's the irony, that we're speculating why Grant would use the wrong term when it was Grant correcting me for using the wrong term.

Part of language is just trying to convey an idea efficiently. The speaker is guessing at what words to use to get the job done. I've used the term 'step-through' for decades working at bike shops and usually when speaking and with the bike present I still use the term step-through along with a little pantomime motion towards the dropped top tube.

If Rivendell sometimes used the term Mixte to describe a non Mixte design, I trust it was just to briefly point out that the thing had that step through feature. A Facebook post, a BLUG post is an environment where writers might get a little loose with descriptive terms. When it comes to actual NAMING of objects, like frame decals or a product brochure I think it's right to expect more precision.

Happy Labor Day

[Joe Bernard]

Haibike makes hi-step and low-step versions of their ebikes, which correlate well to the H and L designations Riv uses for the Clem. This seems a much simpler descriptor than trying to explain when a step-through is not a mixte and vice-versa.

Btw, the BLUG announced that RBW would be closed for a bit for "the occultation". Nice work, Bill!

[masmojo]

Harsh directional light doesn't flatter that color much, bit in foggy conditions out in the wild it looks great.
I think this might be a concept/category that Rivendell could exploit with good success in the near future! At least until it gets copied. This looks kinda like what I was hoping my Clementine would be.

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I was convinced that I was going to have the bike repainted. I decided to not do so. Mainly due to the fact that I have a Roadini coming next that I am definitely going to have repainted. Decided to not put the extra money into the mixte. Not sure I really like the color but I will live with it at this point

[Bill Lindsay]

I had several small projects on the workstand this week.  I laced up a couple new wheels, and did several tire swaps on a few of my bikes.  The result of the tire swaps left me with a pair of Compass Babyshoe Pass Extralights that could go in the tire box, or could go on another bike.  So, I decided to deck out my Medium Step-Thru as a stripped down road racing machine. 

Racy Rosco Step Thru

I'm thinking that with some black aluminum fenders and the right front rack, we'll be totally Rando-Ready. 

On my 10x200 challenge, I've been doing shorter rides including all-out effort intervals.  I'm tracking my progress/fitness by shooting for Personal Records on all my frequent East Bay Climbs.  Today, I went all-out for a PR on the climb up Wildcat Canyon.  I felt very good about it, only to find I accidentally hit the "stop" button on Strava and failed to record any of my 35 mile jaunt.  We'll never know whether I did a PR or not.  Did it really happen?  Is Strava equivalent to Pictures? 

As it stands, I'm still at 6 bikes.  I should be able to finish up 200 miles on both my Mountain bike as well as the step-thru this week.  That will leave my double-speed Gunnar and my Rosco Road bike as bike number 9 and 10.  I'm about ready to concede that there is no way I'm getting 200 miles in on my tandem.  There is just not enough willing stokerage going on in my immediate vicinity. I'm OK with that. 

[Philip Williamson]

I'm pretty lax with the mixte ("co-ed") designation personally, but you may have seen this graphic on my site. It is my production artwork, copied from a picture of a catalog page.
http://www.biketinker.com/2014/bike-art/types-of-step-through-frames/

Philip
www.biketinker.com
Santa Rosa, CA

[Mark in Beacon]

Thanks for posting the graphic, Philip. You did a nice job. I remember running across that catalog page years ago, and tried with no success to find it during the most recent mixte discussion. I am of the opinion that mixte in this sense  does not mean co-ed, but "dual" or "mixed" as in the twin top tubes and/or the dual seat stays. Because otherwise why wouldn't all the other styles be co-ed as well?  But I am decidedly a derailleur guy.

[Bill Lindsay]

Rosco Bubbe is down in the books as bike #7 in my 200 miles on 10 bikes challenge.  The Medium Mountain Step Thru went out with a bang, on a classic Riv-content ride.  Out my front door, to the top of Mount Diablo and back to my front door. 

78 miles and 6700 feet of climbing on a practically perfect day in the Bay Area.  We're looking West from the summit and that bump on the horizon is Mount Tam.  The bike did spectacularly well.  I've continued to dial in this bike, now with a Black Brooks B17 and a Mountain Campee front rack with detachable lowriders. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA