New "Hill" Bike is Posted

[Collin A]

Looks different, as all rivendell bikes do. It'll be interesting to see how it rides and what the bike industry will think of it at the trade show.

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/all-about-ebikes

Happy Saturday riding everyone,

Collin

[Justin, Oakland]

Looks great. Kind of a Space Frame Meets Clem H.

Excited to see something like this made. Where’s the samples of the Rosco Bebe tho?

-J

[Joe Bernard]

Looks like a Clem H with hints of the very pretty curve in the L, and uses that bike's most excellent seat lug. I like it!

Joe "Hill Bike is a great category name" Bernard
Novato CA.

[Eamon Nordquist]

It doesn't really strike me as a "step through" - it's just a curvy/droopy dropped top tube that gives more standover clearance. As said earlier, a bit like a Jones spacecraft in that regard. Either way, I love it.

Eamon

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I’m also curiously awaiting details of the Roscoe Bebe and was somewhat hoping there’d be something... some spec/detail... about the “Hill Bike” that would rule it out for me since I’m otherwise happily riding my 65cm Clem H as a Jones loop bar’ed Dad bike right now but after seeing Gus Boots-Willsen on the blahg it appears to resolve the only two minor, theoretical issues I have with my Clem H: the high stand over and threaded>threadless stem workaround for the Jones loop. These are not really issues for me but being at the low end of the pbh spectrum for the 65cm Clem H I have a minimum of stand over clearance but once mounted I think nothing of it. As for the stem, not something I dwell over but if I could simultaneously gain the wiggle room with the lower stand over and convert to threadless where the Loop bar “just drops right in” so to speak... this may give me a bike to better grow into as we transition to the rear seat for a dad bike and allow me to hit more trails when solo with my son. Hmm, I’ll need to wait for more sizing/handling details but I just might need to consider the Clem to Gus transition.

Brian Cole
Lawrenceville NJ

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I meant hit more trails solo when WITHOUT my son... as in pop the baby seat off and get into more rugged terrain.

[ant ritchey]

Loving Gus. Can't wait to see how it all shakes down.

Baggabond...just when I had my bag game/spending configured once and for all...

[George Rosselle]

If it is a "King of the Hill" bike shouldn't it be called Hank? Of course they can't do that. Too bad.

The fork looks mighty thin compared to the head tube, although I bet that makes it ride better. 

If I had not just bought a Jones I would look hard at this one. But for me the Jones Plus SWB does it all so well. I hope the new Riv is successful. I do wish the Jones was a nice color like the Riv. BBQ grill black is hard to get excited about.

[Patrick Moore]

How easy is it to stand and climb on this sort of bike designed for sweep-back bars? Is it easy enough to get your torso forward of the bb and your shoulders over the head tube?

Or are these bikes designed for sitting and spinning in a low gear?

I'd like to try one, not that I need a dedicated hill bike ...

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 9:54 AM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pretty cool.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at interbike!

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[Patrick Moore]

Come to think of it, how easy is it to climb standing on a Jones? I've thought -- not hard, but I've thought -- of getting a Jones.

[Deacon Patrick]

“Ride like a Mongolian” perfectly describes the way to ride trails. It is organic, and with a simple tool and time in the saddle, the trail and the bike teach you how to do it (and how not to do it! Grin.). My two hillbikes, Quickbeam and Hunqabeam, being fixed gear, the standing in the saddle is just a natural way to activate the shocks, and the pedals keepamoving, spinning beneith ... very like running barefoot. I find it far more enjoyable and see far more than if I was conquering the trail. Ride with abandon, on a hillbike! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Justin, Oakland]

What does that phrase mean?

-J

[iamkeith]

Patrick, I kind of HAVE to stand to climb on my Jones, but it's one of the early 29 spaceframes that were all about having as short of chainstays as possible. It took a while to figure out, but the key was setting the saddle back far enough that it was out of the way when standing. Otherwise. I was too crowded against the cockpit and had handlebar/thigh interference. Definitely required some adapting, but then every other bike felt wrong. You and I have discussed in other threads how I've started shifting all my saddles further back, but this is why.

More on topic, I guess we don't know the geometry numbers for the new bike but, with rivendells usually leaning toward short effective reach measurements (short top tubes OR those bullmoose bosco bars), I'd anticipate a similar fit but WITH the ability to stay seated and spin if you want, without doing wheelies. I never need to stand when climbing on my Boco'd Clem, until i actually run out of strength.

[iamkeith]

Justin, go back one blahg post, follow the links, and watch the video of the kids riding. I'm going to watch it again, now knowing that there were pointy metal studs on the tops of their wooden saddles.

[Eric Daume]

The Jones LWB is an amazing climbing bike. The "sweet spot"--where you're neither flipping back nor spinning out--feels about a mile long.

Eric

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 2:19 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Come to think of it, how easy is it to climb standing on a Jones? I've thought -- not hard, but I've thought -- of getting a Jones.

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

How easy is it to stand and climb on this sort of bike designed for sweep-back bars? Is it easy enough to get your torso forward of the bb and your shoulders over the head tube?

Or are these bikes designed for sitting and spinning in a low gear?

I'd like to try one, not that I need a dedicated hill bike ...

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 9:54 AM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pretty cool.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at interbike!

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[Deacon Patrick]

Patrick, keep in mind Grant mentions a few times shifting to a higher gear for better traction (it also makes it easier to ride a smoother line, and easier in “trough” trails to not whack the pedal into the dirt wall on either side).

Different bike geometry, a shorter wheelbase, but riding my Hunqabeam on the Colorado trail recently I paid attention for a while to how often I am not fully sitting on the saddle. Most of the time on a technical trail like that, often just barely off the saddle, sometimes a fair bit up. And my saddle is lower (the equivilant to shorter stirrups) than it used to be, which allows for hitting the “sweet” spot power wise, like doing squats (the power sweet spot is in the middle, leg half bent, so I have that at the 1 or 2 o’clock position of the pedal stroke).

With abandon,
Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

The reports about the Jones and climbing move it a place higher on the "want" list*. I'll be interested to hear about others' experience on the new Rivendell mountain bike too.

I "naturally" stand while climbing; perhaps it's just long habituation, but I'd not want a bike where you couldn't be comfortable standing and "honking". I daresay it's just a misleading appearance, but the profile of the new MTB reminded me of the Electra Townie, one of which (24" wheel, 3i model) I bought for my daughter when she was 10 or so; a surprisingly fun bike to ride (it almost fit me, so versatile was the design) but "foot forward" and discouraging to standing.

*I have to admit that it's really a "Want but will probably never buy" list, since there are other dream bikes above even a Jones. 

[Patrick Moore]

I think I know what you mean about that half-standing position; I often use it too (or did when I rode more in hilly off road) for sudden torque increases on inclines that wouldn't let you stand all the way up. 

Aside: speaking of hill bikes, favorite riding is rolling hills: not too steep or long that you need to shift gears, or that you need to shift often, but that require different efforts and techniques, particularly standing. Funny, the bosque is flat, flat, flat, but the sand patches often serve to put you into quasi-climbing style, including that half-standing "squats" position when standing fully will overload the front wheel and cause it to wash out and you to fall.

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[Chris Lampe 2]

When Grant stated that it would have a lot of stand-over but wouldn't be a Mixte, I assumed the bike would have a sharply sloping top-tube like most modern MTB's.  A downward curved top-tube never occurred to me and I was very surprised when the bike was unveiled.  

I can imagine that the GUS BOOTS-WILLSEN is amazing for the type of riding it's designed for.  I look forward to seeing these with the Wavie Bar, which i assume was designed specifically for this bike, given Grant's hint about a 31.8 version.  

[Jeremy Till]

Plus tires and cantilever brakes! Called it!  

It looks great to me, and is very much what I was expecting, although the top tube configuration was a surprise.  My wife hates it, I think it's awesome.  

Wondering about the sizing and geometry.  The sample that is set up for Will looks like it is running 650B+ wheels, so the 29" XL must be really big.  I think the sample looks like it would fit me well.  I'll probably get one, especially if that color is an option.  I'll have to build a new set of wheels, but other than that a lot of the parts from my Clem could swap over.  

On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 8:43:49 PM UTC-7, Collin A wrote:

[Chris Lampe 2]

Given that the bike was built up with Will in mind, I was thinking those were 29" tires but I think you are right that they are 27.5.  The photo is not quite high enough in resolution but it appears more like "27" than "29".   

Manny's photo shows him holding up a bare frame that is closer to the Appaloosa blue color, which is one of my favorite Riv colors.  Manny's photo is so distorted that the seat tube looks higher than the headtube and I can't tell if that frame is larger or smaller than the one on the Blahg.  

[Joe Bernard]

Where is this "Manny's photo" ? I don't see any Gus pics on that thread.

[dougP]

See Manny's post:  New Riv Mountain Bike.  It has a link to photos of a recent adventure plus his visit to RBWHQ.

dougP

[Doug H.]

I like the look of this bike. I’d say it looks like a low rider...I can even hear the Low Rider song playing while looking at the photos. Has a price point been posted?
Doug

[Chris Lampe 2]

They were way, way down on the photo page of the post dougP referenced.  Initially, I thought Manny had linked to the wrong page but that red bike his friend was riding interested me enough that I stayed on the page anyway only to realize the Gus photos were there after all. 

[Tony DeFilippo]

My first reaction from the initial visual wasn't super positive... but it's growing on me a bit.  I don't love that top tube curve but I'm not sure why.  I do love Grant's Mongolian horseback analogy for trail riding, I've never thought about it that way and will re-read a couple times and try to incorporate it a bit myself.  I also enjoy the newly created 'Hill Bike' segment but it also highlights the difference in readily available riding for Mt/Hill bikes close to me... for all the reasons Grant highlights urban/suburban trails are mostly tailored to the capabilities or aspirations of dual suspension bikes, at least the intermediate and advanced ones.  I'm 1-2 hours from the kind of trailhead for the wandering exploratory rides he's talking about which makes it difficult these days.

Still I'm thrilled they made the bike, as much as I do like the hydro-disc brakes on my Jones Plus I think I'd be fine w/ canti's and better able to service them (though the hydro procedure isn't rocket science).  I'll be interested to see the final production version.  I hope he goes w/ a cream headtube... maybe that is what is bothering me in my initial blush more than the curved top tube, or maybe its the tig weld transition of top tube, down tube and head tube...  something discountenanced there for me.

Tony

[iamkeith]

After staring for a day, i have to say the overall shape has really grown on me a lot. I sort of liked the look of the Ritchey Commando (the newer, steel, fat bike version of that name), which had a similar curve for standover clearance... but then somehow completely missed the boat by still having way too short of a stack height. This gets it right!

Not super fond of the rear brake cable routing, but it's easy to nitpick details that would probably disapear in real life. Or maybe be solved with a pulley-type cable hanger.

Meanwhile, I see at least three super SMART details on Gus that always seemed like glaring ommissions on my Clem: Two sets of bottle cage braze ons on the top of the downtube; Pump pegs behind the seatpost; and Offset kickstand mounting hole to accommodate fat tires.

[iamkeith]

Agree the big one does seem like it could just as easily have 29+ tires.

[Don Compton]

I really like my Roadeo and loved my Ram. I appreciate Grant's vision. But, I have ZERO interest in his new models. He lost my interest.

[Patrick Moore]

Don: I joined Rivendell circa 1994, and I too have observed the transition from Old School steel-and-toe-clips-and-wool-jersey roadie schtick, and cheap but smart kit, to the current crop of cruisers (that last term is not used in deprecation, but it's an apt term) and $250+ bags. I've owned 5 Rivs, and still have 2 -- both road models. I've owned most of the bags Rivendell has sold, though many I've bought used.

I've scoffed at tweed mudflaps and so forth, but the scuttlebutt is that even the Clems and Roscoes and what have yous still have that magic signature handling and I, for one, won't dismiss these sweepback-bar models until I personally ride one. 

Patrick "Mongolians be damned" Moore

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[Joe Bernard]

The "sweepback bar cruisers" ride great, as does my Roadini. In my opinion only someone who's never ridden the new models would dismiss them.

[M Talley]

Interesting. I see the curved second top tube of the new Atlantis inverted here. Though probably thicker walled for this application. It reminds me how now I see bicycle design in terms of palettes of tube selections. After looking over what some of the new models out from Surly, All City and Salsa - specifically the models able to accept wide tire like this Hill bike - I thought these separate brands must share. To have a heavily shaped tube made and have it make sense by scales of economy the other two brands might look at it as a piece to add to a new model. Just guessing.

[Doug Hansford]

I say just ride. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Mark in Beacon]

Well, I don't think that's necessarily the case--I think there are plenty of folks who wouldn't cotton to the newer generations of Rivendells, even after a spin or two on one. While I think they offer a type of ride that almost anyone would enjoy and benefit from, the new Rivs don't fit everyone's perception of what they should be doing on a bicycle, how it should look, etc., etc, etc. Hey, you can lead a horse to water. And that's fine, as long as Rivendell can figure out how to sell enough to make a decent living for everyone involved in the enterprise.  And I'm impressed by Don's apparent faith, keeping track of Rivendell despite ZERO interest in any of the bicycles released by the company in the last decade (the Rodeo came out around this time in 2009.) Hope springs eternal!

I think the Hill Bike looks wonderful, and with the conditions found on many streets these days, it would make a sensible commuter for during the week riding. Wonder what fenders would fit over the 2.8 x 27.5?

[Garth]

    

     I get that !   We are not limited to or by any of these production models. If it appeals, great ! If not , so what !   The more I see models that have no appeal, or are not exactly what I'd love to ride,  the more I appreciate what I DO ride right now ... and THAT I ride at all ....the effin' Joy of just riding along .... the weeeeeeeeeeeee ! ..... which is the whole point of any of this in the first place !   

[iamkeith]

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 4:36:09 AM UTC-6, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>Wonder what fenders would fit over the 2.8 x 27.5?

https://www.sks-germany.com/en/products/bluemels-75-u/

[ChrisB]

I love the new bike and Riv's current direction. The bikes are more accessible to a wider audience both design-wise and cost-wise and challenge you to think differently (maybe in way that's more in tune with others and the terrain). I like that the Hill Bike remains straight-forward to service and can be fitted out with economical parts / with versatility, as has always been the Riv tradition. The colors, fork blade curves, steel and lugs speak to the Riv heritage: the best of the old with the best of the new! Bike Industry Haters: Eat my (Musa) shorts!!

[Joe Bernard]

I guess the direction Riv has taken works for me because Grant and I both seem to favor "go for a ride" rides as opposed to "I gotta hit 20/40/60 miles today" rides, and we live in the same hilly and mostly dry area. It's certainly fine to not be into a particular style of bike - maybe the look and colors don't work for you - I just think a current Riv rider would be hard-pressed to dislike the ride if they actually rode one.

Tangent from the current Blahg: That ebike video was weird. "We don't read books" ? 😐

[Ryan M.]

After riding the Appaloosa for a little bit I’m totally sold on the current long chain stay thing Riv has going. So far after owning other Riva, the App is my favorite Rivendell.

This Hill bike has some details that I really appreciate for a “mountain bike.” The threadless fork/headset and the full length brake housing are both positives for a bike that rolls through the dirt, rock, grass, and mud, which is the way I would ride it. I’m very curious to see a geometry chart for this bike. It looks like it would make a fine trail riding bike.

That janky brake cable routing in the rear makes me wonder why they would insist on canti posts instead of going with a disc brake, at least for the rear. With the plus tires one probably cannot use v brakes as the arms won’t be long enough, so cantis are the only choice. IMHO it is a poor choice for a bike that rolls through the dirt, rock, grass, and mud.

[M Talley]

Speaking of fitting to bikes with 2.8 width tires. Can you imagine a V-brake that would work with that wide of a seat stays and have pads that reach the rims. It would seem they have to use cantilevers. Just wondering - maybe it has been done.

Mark

[br...@bgcycles.com]

Sorry this was posted to the wrong address
Regards,
Bruce


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[Reed Kennedy]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 7:09 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tangent from the current Blahg: That ebike video was weird. "We don't read books" ? 😐

I know, I know! They don't read books, they don't eat nice meals, and their bikes don't need to be pedaled.

What are they saving all this time and energy for? It must be amazing!

Reed 

(Who will be quite abashed when an ebike rider cures cancer.) 

[masmojo]

I can't say as I hate it!? It seems like a sort of evolution of the Clem to me, but I can't say I would trade my Clementine for one. I would prefer it over my Clementine, it solves the water bottle problem & I like the larger, threadless steerer; I'll be interested to see how the fork handles those meaty wheels/tires.
Regarding climbing; I see a lot of mention of it here & I thought maybe I could demystify it for folks.
Good offroad climbing technique trumps most bike design considerations. On a hill where you fear losing traction. Get you upper body forward as much as possible, low over the handlebars. This prevents the "wheelies". Stay seated, then when it gets steep, while maintaining your body position PULL on the handlebars. This effectively uses your body position as a lever which pushes the back tire into the ground & prevents the dreaded back tire "spin" & loss of traction.
My Surly Ogre has an impossibly short rear triangle, but I can climb some pretty steep stuff using this technique. No problem. My main issue is running out of juice.

[ian m]

I had imagined the possibility of a Riv off-roader replacing my current Clem, as riding off road is 95% of my riding now, but this bike repeats the same design flaw as the Clem. Jones Bikes prove that you can have a huge wheelbase for an awesomely stable ride on a Mtn bike, but it shouldn't come from long chainstays. Putting the back wheel so far behind the rider's mass increases the difficulty in raising the front end, especially while riding uphill. While that may seem superfluous for perfectly manicured California trails, it's a necessity for riding off road in other places. Unless that seat tube is far slacker than the Clem's I think it would be a bear to handle on a rocky, rooty uphill. I am jealous of that pump peg tho

[ian m]

Also that fork is a beaut 

[Joe Bernard]

I like ebikes (although I'm out of the game at the moment, I sold all my e-stuff), but that video is a terrible way to sell them. "Here's a bunch of motor power so you can fly through the air!" is a one-way ticket to ebikes being banned on trails. Heckuva job, boys.

[Clayton]

Wow. I keep trying to post, without luck....

I wanted this to be a dedicated bike packer, so my critique is my crybaby cry, OK?

The rear brake cable routing..........I saw this design on MalWart bikes in the eighties. As a mechanic back in the day, I worked on bikes with cable routing similar and the drag was huge if even slightly dirty. This design alone kills the bike for me, but I assume it is a mistake or detail that will be rectified.

The curved top tube means common frame bags won’t fit for bikepacking. Lack of triple braze-ons on the fork for anything cages is a head scratcher for a travel bike, as they seem to be more popular than front lowriders.

I am going to keep staring at the photo for a few hours a day to see if it grows on me.....And wait to see what details will be changed.... before I commit to another brand. 😞

Clayton
ddd

[CMR]

It's similar brake routing as a Clem L isn't it? If you use v-brakes it'll be much cleaner, this is just an issue with cantilevers.

[Eric Daume]

Er, Jones is more known for his long chainstay bikes these days. When I called to talk to him about the SWB model, he spent most of the conversation extolling the virtues of the LWB bike. 

Eric

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[iamkeith]

Quick search seems to suggest that V brakes with longer arms do exist.  These are 125mm long vs a typical 100mm, which seems like it should fit a 3" tire.  I don't know what that does to the cable pull / leverage equation:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/44mm-Extra-Long-V-Brakes-Rim-Front-Rear-Brake-Set-Linear-Pull-V-Brake-/221991915213

[lconley]

It works better if you use a long cable hanger instead of a short cable hanger. I also like to wrap the cable around the drive side of the bike - lengthens / straightens out the curve. You can also use a seat stay bridge mounted hanger from Tektro, that is what I did on my Medium Mountain Mixte - looks like a similar curved seat stay bridge.

Laing

Cocoa, FL

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 12:18:04 PM UTC-4, CMR wrote:

[iamkeith]

here's a fairly current list of V brake lengths:

https://www.gravelbike.com/v-brake-arm-lengths/

I think maybe the ones I linked on ebay, which are longer than any of these, were intended for 26-700c conversions?  Whatever works, though.

[ian m]

LWB = Long WheelBase, yes. Long chainstay, not compared to Rivs. My Clem has a full 8 cm longer chainstay and doesn't fit 29x3" tires. Jones bikes have a slacker seat tube angle, about 4 degree slacker head tube angle, and over 20mm more fork offset. This puts the rear wheel more under the riders body and the front wheel farther out front. Very easy to life the front and still very stable ride thanks to long wheelbase

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 12:40:41 PM UTC-4, Eric Daume wrote:

Er, Jones is more known for his long chainstay bikes these days. When I called to talk to him about the SWB model, he spent most of the conversation extolling the virtues of the LWB bike. 

Eric

On Monday, September 17, 2018, ian m <darkg...@gmail.com> wrote:

I had imagined the possibility of a Riv off-roader replacing my current Clem, as riding off road is 95% of my riding now, but this bike repeats the same design flaw as the Clem. Jones Bikes prove that you can have a huge wheelbase for an awesomely stable ride on a Mtn bike, but it shouldn't come from long chainstays. Putting the back wheel so far behind the rider's mass increases the difficulty in raising the front end, especially while riding uphill. While that may seem superfluous for perfectly manicured California trails, it's a necessity for riding off road in other places. Unless that seat tube is far slacker than the Clem's I think it would be a bear to handle on a rocky, rooty uphill. I am jealous of that pump peg tho

On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 11:43:49 PM UTC-4, Collin A wrote:

Looks different, as all rivendell bikes do. It'll be interesting to see how it rides and what the bike industry will think of it at the trade show.

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/all-about-ebikes

Happy Saturday riding everyone,

Collin

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[Kevin Mulcahy]

To me it looks like the top tube is too short if it’s designed around swept back bars, which means you’re going to get handcuffed when riding around switchback.

How many rims out there that are suited for plus sized tires, tubeless compatible, and available for rim brake action? Slim pickens, no doubt. Especially for the silver lovers. Any rim brake options in 29+?

I was hoping for more of a “high performance” all-rounder rigid mtb, like a rethought MB-1 designed around some more progressive or modern examples of mtb geometry.

[Joe Bernard]

I've heard nothing about the frame being designed around sweptback bars, nor do we know the ETT unless somebody there measured it and told someone. I expect a lot of these bikes to show up with flattish 31.8 mtb bars or Jones Loops.

[Eric Daume]

I think Jones still has high performance, progressive, rigid mtb market to himself. I wonder how much cross shopping there will be between Jones and this bike? Though the Jones starts at just $1100 for the unicrown frameset. 

Eric

[John G]

Looks like a Cleland.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/38236150@N06/

[Kevin Mulcahy]

Sure, I'm making an assumption that the bike would be designed around the handlebars and stems that they currently sell.  

[Chris Lampe 2]

I have wondered how much influence Corey's jones plus has had on the GBH, if any.

[Palmer]

Hi mark,

I have 2 Schwinn Miradas that fit a 26x3 front and have used normal V and cantivers on them. It is a little tricky getting the tire past the brakes when inflated. Thinline pads help a bit.

The Hill bike reminds of them both, one a dirt tourer and other what I consider a trail bike, not a mountain bike.

Here is a pic of 1 when it had a 2.8 front.

Tom Palmer

Twin Lake, MI USA

[Bill Lindsay]

I'd ride that bad-boy.  I bet it's fun. 

I might conisder limiting my rear tire to <2.5" and running a Magura HS33 hydraulic rim brake, to allay the handwringing over cable routing. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ryan M.]

And you could run hydros with the super awesome full housing routing.

I really like the curved top tube.

I just showed my wife this bike...she wants one. Lol

[Belopsky]

I have HS33R on my Gunnar. They stop well.

[Mark in Beacon]

I don't know that with V-brakes, a la Clemlos,  it is that much cleaner, it's just that you don't need the relay pulley; same bends, though. And there really is no other routing that I'm aware of--most "women's" mt bike frames from the 80s-90s came with this setup. It is the bane of step-through (or in this case "hi-swoop") top tubes. At least with mixtes, you can often avoid the dreaded "brake housing facing upward" routing by splitting off around the seat tube. I guess they could do the old  chainstay mount u-brake....everyone would love that! Clean look, but dirty brakes.

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 12:18:04 PM UTC-4, CMR wrote:

[Mark in Beacon]

His more expensive bicycles might be high performance, but I would not say the Complete SWB is high performance--lots of pedal strike on rocky trails, bars wide for northeastern woodsy single track. But that could be solved by the higher zoot framesets with the EBB, and taking a hacksaw to the handlebars. Also, I'm not the world's greatest mountain biker. So there's that.

But it's pretty clear Rivendell is not trying to market a "high performance, progressive" mtb. Just a smart, rethunk formerly known as mountain bicycle for riding sanely through wood and over dale. I would say the Gus Boots and the Complete are different but similar--fantastic and fun bikes with as wide a rubber as anyone will need for just about anything. It would have been a tough choice between the GBW and the Jones Comp, but I have in the back of my mind re-acquiring a Clementine, and that would be too redundant. I like the ability to pick up the Clementine by the top tube. But that Boots is kinda awesome. Maybe I'm just a sucker for a mixte or a swoop tube combined with big knobbies.

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 3:16:15 PM UTC-4, Eric Daume wrote:

[Mark in Beacon]

Those are nice but they cover up to a 2.5" tire. The Gus takes a 2.8 max (with fender? seems that way as they talk about wiggle room at that width.) and the Jones Complete has a 3" tire.

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 9:04:36 AM UTC-4, iamkeith wrote:

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 4:36:09 AM UTC-6, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>Wonder what fenders would fit over the 2.8 x 27.5?

https://www.sks-germany.com/en/products/bluemels-75-u/

[dougP]

Remember when MTBs first came out in the 80s?  Tons of people bought them because of the upright riding position, decent size tires, and versatility for commuting / touring / casual riding.  No intention of off-roading.  These people were turned off by skinny tires, drop bars and the general discomfort of road bikes.  I think Rivendell's current line-up reflects a return to those ideals of way back when, and the ethos of "just ride". 

dougP

[M Talley]

I just mentioned the very rim that this bike needs in a post over at the 650b group. The nature of that lament was the inability to get many rim brake 650b rims out of the supply source I checked. I looked no farther than QBP but even they don't sell the Alex rim that is stock on the Surly Pack Rat (650b rim brake model) I know that could change but a quick look shows a lot of rims for the class of bike Grant is outing as the leading trend style of bike - so disc only. The interesting rim that is on a stock bike and would suit the Hill bike is on the Specialize Roll. It is 30mm wide and has machined brake tracks. I wondered where one would get one if a wheel repair was needed. Grant may have ideas for sourcing solutions for some of these issues outed in this thread. It's the brakes that have me wondering.

[Philip Williamson]

You have a bow, and murder Persians. And impregnate half the world. #mongolianstyle #genghisbike

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Mark in Beacon]

Are you saying Genghis wasn't PC? One of the most engaging histories I've read in the last 10 years is "The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia", by Rene Grousset, featuring the fearsome trio of Atilla, the aforementioned Mr. Khan, and Tamberlain. What a story, and well-told. In fact, there's a trio of Hill Bike models:   Attilla Attacker, Genghiz Gravel Grinder, and Tamberlain Terrain Tamer. Go Team! (I wonder who will be around to write the peaceful tale of a benevolent, humble culture,  "The Empire of The United States: A History of")

[tc]

The more I stare at this particular huge-framed version of Will’s, the more I’m convinced that Gus here is the result of a sneaky late-night union between young Brompton Willsen and his girlfriend Clementine Boots. I’m thinking Gus was a hard delivery; the forceps curved his TT a bit. Grant and crew, being the good people they are, offered to help cover up this happening for the love struck couple (it did happen in their shop, after all) and came up with the whole Hill Bike story. I almost believed it....but just look at that profile ... they can’t deny it!

Tom...who’s still staring

[Joe Bernard]

Again, I question that you've actually ridden any of these bikes you call cruisers...

[Jeremy Till]

Just to provide a counterpoint: I think that the technical climbing technique you describe isn't for everyone, and I think that that's the market Grant's "Hill" bikes are going for.  I rode a standard hardtail mountain bike before building up my Clem and found climbing on it challenging.  If you like your handlebars relatively high, as is the Rivendell trademark, then to get low over the top tube you have to deeply bend your arms, which quickly becomes uncomfortable when you're also pulling on them for power.  Your torso/hip angle may also be more acute than is comfortable for you, and it's difficult to look up the trail to anticipate obstacles and choose the best line.  

Taking my preferred fit into consideration (read: high handlebars), my Clem is the best technical climbing bike I've ever owned.  I can easily clean climbs on it that I found challenging on more standard mountain bikes.  I can sit more upright while climbing, my back and arms are more relaxed (read: less wasted energy), and I can see up the trail to find the right line. I will admit that if I get out of the saddle and lean too far forward while climbing, I can get the rear 2.2" tire to lose traction. But in the saddle or hovering over it, it's rock solid, and I prefer in the saddle climbing anyways, as long as I have a low enough gear.  We'll see how the plus tires on the Gus change the traction equation.  

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 8:48:15 AM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:

I can't say as I hate it!? It seems like a sort of evolution of the Clem to me, but I can't say I  would trade my Clementine for one. I would prefer it over my Clementine, it solves the water bottle problem & I like the larger, threadless steerer; I'll be interested to see how the fork handles those meaty wheels/tires.
Regarding climbing; I see a lot of mention of it here & I thought maybe I could demystify it for folks.
Good offroad climbing technique trumps most bike design considerations. On a hill where you fear losing traction. Get you upper body forward as much as possible, low over the handlebars. This prevents the "wheelies". Stay seated, then when it gets steep, while maintaining your body position PULL on the handlebars. This effectively uses your body position as a lever which pushes the back tire into the ground & prevents the dreaded back tire "spin" & loss of traction.
My Surly Ogre has an impossibly short rear triangle, but I can climb some pretty steep stuff using this technique. No problem. My main issue is running out of juice.

[Kiley Demond]

Moi aussi. If there is one thing I have developed in the second half of my century (serendipitous pun), it is that I am not in a hurry. Oh, wait, no, it's that I no longer care that I'm not fast, and therefore not in hurry ;-). 

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 7:09:02 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:

I guess the direction Riv has taken works for me because Grant and I both seem to favor "go for a ride" rides as opposed to "I gotta hit 20/40/60 miles today" rides, and we live in the same hilly and mostly dry area. It's certainly fine to not be into a particular style of bike - maybe the look and colors don't work for you - I just think a current Riv rider would be hard-pressed to dislike the ride if they actually rode one.

Tangent from the current Blahg: That ebike video was weird. "We don't read books" ? 😐

[masmojo]

When I was in Walnut Creek, I spoke to Will & he was pretty excited about it. Honestly, I was expecting something along the lines of a Surly Ogre with rim brakes (& longer chain stays). I too worry about components; not now, but 10 years from now.

[Ryan M.]

A Riv can still be ridden quick, and of course can be built many different ways to capitalize on efficiency; the owner doesn’t have to build the bike as a cruiser.

I do understand your point though. I have to put some thought into this new one, as I was hoping for a Rivendell to ride on my local mountain bike trails which I frequent. I’m not sure if this will work for me though as our trails have short but steep ups and downs and twist their way through the woods rather than flow. Details of the final design and a peek at the geometry will help the decision.

[Bill Lindsay]

Give me the worst case scenario for this worry.  If you buy a Gus Boots Willsen today and are sincerely worried about specific components, you should buy a couple extra of those specific components.  What are they?  The only ones I can envision are wide enough rim brake rims in 584.  Buy three extra rims if you are really that worried.  Have you ever had to discard a bike because you could no longer buy a critical part for it?  There are certainly components that have become obsolete, but none of them have resulted in throwing away a frame.  Least of all Rivendell Bicycle Works has never made a frameset that is now obsolete due to their inability to source parts.  You are free to worry over whatever you want to worry over, obviously, but I think this particular worry is manageable, unless your worry about components is code for "I don't want to buy that bicycle". 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito CA

[masmojo]

The "worry" isn't for me so much; I am a "Bikie" & I would anticipate such an issue, but I maybe have 20 more years in me (max), what then? OR, what about the scores of people who buy Rivendells based on their sort of lifestyle status & at their core are not bike people? They won't even think to buy "extra" rims, most people won't realize what an oddity a super wide rim brake rim is until it comes time to replace it.

[iamkeith]

On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 8:12:43 AM UTC-6, tc wrote:
> The more I stare at this particular huge-framed version of Will’s, the more I’m convinced that Gus here is the result of a sneaky late-night union between young Brompton Willsen and his girlfriend Clementine Boots...
>
> Tom...who’s still staring

I'm still staring too - but I think I'm digesting or projecting or mentally filling in the blanks differently than most. Not that I'm right, but I don't think this one is the "big" frame because Grant said that at least one size would have 29er wheels. I think this one may have been set up for Will - despite being too small - simply in order to test the adaptability of the design. Or maybe to illustrate the baggabond sack. Or, maybe, to make as many waves as possible at interbike. (Oh, to be a fly on the wall tomorrow!)

I just assumed that most actual rider setups would be on more appropriately proportioned frames and thus wouldn't seem quite so jarring in their use of stem/bar/seatpost extensions.

So I've been sliding the image to the top of my browser window and cutting the picture off at the top of the headtube - and it totally changes the feel. Try it! A fist-full of post max, no stem shims, and a low-rise, non-swept-back bar would completly change the character and make it look really aggressive, actually.

I am resisting the urge to use photoshop to plug 29+ wheels in there, or to rotate the curved top tube clockwise, until I see the other frame sizes and some dimensions. But I bet SOME of the wheel-size / frame-size combinations yield some real off-pavement brawlers. That said and one again, this one sure does look like it could be built around the bigger, (subjectively) better wheels without any compromises.

[ctifusion]

My turn to chime in. I just couldn't go out in the mid-September humidity and ride this afternoon so I'll write here instead. I will first say that yesterday when my 8 year old saw it he said "WOW, cool!!!" 

I also think it's very cool, and if I hadn't just got a new Atlantis this year it would be something to consider for a burly commuter and occasional off-roader. I'm in Indianapolis and there are very few hills here, but nevertheless I've built and ridden many similar-style vintage MTBs from the 80s as light trail bikes, touring bikes, commuters, etc. And I've built three for friends just in the last two years and got them riding bikes again. So I totally agree that there is a reason to build a sturdy MTB-like bike for the 90% of us who ride mellow off road (or in areas of the country without major trails) and might also just like the sturdy cruiser style. This could be a killer commuter.

I'm not in the market for this bike right now mostly for budget reasons (I have six working bikes, none of which I want to part with) but also because I recently built something sorta similar to use when I do make it to trails. I have a 2016/17? Raleigh Pardner that I got off the ibob list last year. It's a simple, steel framed, 4-inch fat bike with low-level Shimano. I solved the low head tube problem with a surly fork (uncut) and some riser bars. It doesn't have the long chain stays, but it does have a slack geometry and a long wheelbase relative to its size. Not the same bike at all, but another simple bike with big tires that can handle everything my 47 year old body can do. The only problem I have with this bike is keeping the disc brakes working and not constantly dragging the pads! The Boots would be a much smoother and cooler version I'm sure. I just saying that I totally understand the concept and I think that, in a very Grant/Riv way, lots of other riders will dig this concept too if they gave it a shot.

I understand the worry about parts (and I've had to work a bit to build the rim brake bikes I own lately), but other than rims, I can't imagine anything is a real worry. And there are plenty of 650b touring bikes out there that will need sturdy rims in the future, rims that will work well with this bike. I put 5, 10, and 30 year old parts on my new Atlantis this summer along with a new 1x10 setup. So much fun to mix and match.

Lastly, I'd also like to point out that Grant's post and pics are crazy in today's modern marketing and Insta environment. That particular bike is huge and the set up is just plain ugly, especially the black bits and bars (obviously needs a Bull Moose or the new wavie?). No other company would ever allow a new bike to be released this way, especially one this innovative and experimental. I personally love Riv for this, but if it was carefully built with all the coolest stuff and posed and shot by a pro (no offense to the photographers at Riv!) I think there would be less hand-ringing over it's aesthetics. Just saying.

Ride on!

Brynnar

[Max S]

Bill nailed it! 

- Max "about to make yet another if-I-had-to-have-just-one-bike purchase" in A2 

[Bill Lindsay]

masmojo responded to me (I'm almost certain). Masmojo asked two questions:

1.  "I maybe have 20 more years in me (max), what then?"  20 years until you give up cycling?  After that, enjoy walking, or reading.  20years of life?  After that, peacefully enjoy the afterlife

2.  "what about the scores of people who buy Rivendells based on their sort of lifestyle status & at their core are not bike people?"  If those theoretical people buy a 584mm rim Rivendell, and 10 years down the road need a new rim, and at that time 584mm rim brake rims are not readily available, then I imagine those people would reach out to Rivendell for help in sourcing a rim.  Rivendell has convinced rim manufacturers to manufacture rims on numerous occasions, and I imagine they will continue to do so.  If your actual worry is that rim manufacturers will discard the capability to extrude rim brake rims entirely, then that's going to be a problem for all rim-brake bikes, not just 584s. If your actual worry is that Rivendell Bicycle Works will be out of business in 10 years, and that will leave the hypothetical non-bike people helpless, then I don't really have a way to calm your worries. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[lconley]

I still have bikes with 27" rims and tires and French bottom brackets and French headsets - these haven't been put on new bikes for almost 40 years. I can still buy them NOS or new. It is easier now than it was 20 years ago thanks to the internet, E-Bay, etc. I can even get 27x1-3/8 tires now, which were unknown in the early seventies.

Not worried about obsolescence.

Laing
Cocoa FL

[ian m]

I wonder if Riv intends to support running something like a Cliffhanger rim tubeless or if they plan on working with a manufacturer to make a 650b non-disc rim appropriately wide for a plus sized mountain bike tire (or both??). Running a 2.8" tire at low pressure on a 25mm internal width rim with tube...more like Just Flats

[Chris Lampe 2]

I'm almost certain that a few months before he announced the MTB, he mentioned a new rim in development.  

[Chris Lampe 2]

For those who don't follow RBW on Instagram

On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 10:43:49 PM UTC-5, Collin A wrote:

Looks different, as all rivendell bikes do. It'll be interesting to see how it rides and what the bike industry will think of it at the trade show.

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/all-about-ebikes

Happy Saturday riding everyone,

Collin

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/18/2018 03:55 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

masmojo responded to me (I'm almost certain). Masmojo asked two questions:

1.  "I maybe have 20 more years in me (max), what then?"  20 years until you give up cycling?  After that, enjoy walking, or reading.  20years of life?  After that, peacefully enjoy the afterlife

2.  "what about the scores of people who buy Rivendells based on their sort of lifestyle status & at their core are not bike people?"  If those theoretical people buy a 584mm rim Rivendell, and 10 years down the road need a new rim, and at that time 584mm rim brake rims are not readily available, then I imagine those people would reach out to Rivendell for help in sourcing a rim.  Rivendell has convinced rim manufacturers to manufacture rims on numerous occasions, and I imagine they will continue to do so.  If your actual worry is that rim manufacturers will discard the capability to extrude rim brake rims entirely, then that's going to be a problem for all rim-brake bikes, not just 584s. If your actual worry is that Rivendell Bicycle Works will be out of business in 10 years, and that will leave the hypothetical non-bike people helpless, then I don't really have a way to calm your worries. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

Rivendell isn't the only small supplier with a vested interest in 650B.  Compass and Grand Bois are also players, and both sell rims.   Compass brought back the Rene Herse crank and cantilever brake and the Mafac Raid brake from the dead, and getting those things back into production is, I'm sure, a more complex task than getting rim-brake rims made in 584 bsd.  And it's worth noting too that you can still buy both rims and tires in 630 bsd 27 x 1 1/4" size, and nobody's manufactured a bike in that size in at least 30 years. 

It's easy to fall prey to fears of obsolescence, but the only sure cure is to give up entirely, because anything you buy today is subject to the same sky-is-falling fear.  130mm rear triangles -- my God, what is Boost, and even that's now being made obsolete by SuperBoost.  11 speed, now made pase by 12.  Not long ago, people said you'd have to be crazy to go for 650B, 559 is the safe choice and the only plump tire size you really need, and now look what's happened to 559.   Cable operated disk brake?  It's all going hydro even as we speak.  Five years ago, everyone was saying cable operated shifting was doomed.  And just the other month I saw an article that said 700x23C was becoming an obsolete size. 

When I was in elementary school, we had Duck & Cover training in case of a nuclear attack.  You' were suuposed to face away from the classroom windows and get under the seat of your classroom desk and assume "the position."  Underneath my seat was inscribed a parody of the instructions: Drop Flat On Ground Or Floor, Bury Your Face In Your Arms, Put your head between your knees and Kiss your ass goodbye.  So yes, you could do that; or you could just ride your bike and not worry about the 650B and Rim Brake Armageddons.  Hell, you can even buy brand new silver components and steel frames made in old standard diameter with threaded headsets and quill stems if you like.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[tc]

The rear quarter Instagram pic of Gus at interbike, with his big ol’ fat tars, presents him so much better than the blahg pics. I think. Something about seeing him from that angle helps me imagine the his true structure. Gus is definitely growing on me!

Tom

[Ben Miller]

I see a lot of discussion about 650b and 2.8" tires. For whatever it is worth, when I went to Rivendell and was holding the fork I was told it was designed for 700c and a 3" tire. (Though I'd bet smaller frames would be 650b)

Ben

[iamkeith]

Thank you - good to hear confirmation/hope. The blahg bike looks pretty clear to be 650b.

[Ben Miller]

Huh, I couldn't read the tire info on the Blahg bike, but yeah, those definitely look like 650b. Fake news?

Harry definitely said 3 inch tires though! 

Also, I have a rigid 650b-plus 3" bike and it is a lot of fun. Like, just plain fun. Riding it is like being reminded of how fun it was to ride a BMX bike as a kid. I think of it less as a MTB and more of a go-out-of-my-way-to-just-roll-over-everything bike.

[tc]

Ian, your post was a good reminder for me to re-view this Jones plus video, the first 4 min of which includes the explanation of exactly what you referenced ... how long wheelbase doesn't have to mean long chainstays, and how Jeff designed the bike to work well for both descending and climbing, but always balanced over the legs, sitting and standing.  Some stat's of the plus, which begins around 1:47 in the video:

HT angle: 67.5 deg

ST angle: 71 deg

Offset: 7.6cm

Chainstay: 19"/48.26cm

I couldn't find wheelbase stat's on the Jones site, but Dirt Rag's review states the LWB's wb is 47.4" / 120.4cm.

I'm looking fwd to learning Gus's spec's.

Tom

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 11:48:25 AM UTC-4, ian m wrote:

I had imagined the possibility of a Riv off-roader replacing my current Clem, as riding off road is 95% of my riding now, but this bike repeats the same design flaw as the Clem. Jones Bikes prove that you can have a huge wheelbase for an awesomely stable ride on a Mtn bike, but it shouldn't come from long chainstays. Putting the back wheel so far behind the rider's mass increases the difficulty in raising the front end, especially while riding uphill. While that may seem superfluous for perfectly manicured California trails, it's a necessity for riding off road in other places. Unless that seat tube is far slacker than the Clem's I think it would be a bear to handle on a rocky, rooty uphill. I am jealous of that pump peg tho

[Mark in Beacon]

I'm the opposite extreme--I rarely if ever pay much attention to specs. I bought my Clementine based on what the designer told me about what it was designed for; same with buying my Jones. I like both bikes a lot. I've ridden both on rocky, rooty uphills. Both did as well as could be expected considering the pilot--I am no Jeff Jones! I think it fair to say both bikes perform more or less as the designers had promised, give or take a bit of hyperbole (Rivs tend to be relatively modest in regards to claims). My experience with bicycles over the years has been:

1. Guys that have been thinking about and designing bikes for a long time usually create an eminently rideable bicycle. 

2. Most human bodies can handle quite a bit of variation and still get good results--ie, have fun!

3. There is no magic bicycle, just the magic of riding bicycles!

[tc]

Agree, mark. Specs help me place a bike amongst those similar to it (or to its purpose) if I don’t yet have the luxury of riding it.

I generally like to play with numbers anyway...

Tom

[masmojo]

I personally wouldn't worry much about the rims if they potentially were something that could be more popular in the future. Examples: moustache handlebars, normal width 650B rims, etc., but I am guessing 2.8" tires will require a wider rim be made. Plenty of them in all diameters, until you add rim braking capability and then it drops to none, one, two(?).
Of course who knows, rim brakes might make a comeback!?
Even when it comes to regular 650b rim brake rims pickings are slim; I presume they are prolific enough between retro bikes & modern recent offerings to always be available, but who knows?