Who wants a Hunqadiscer?

[Joe Bernard]

Now that I've conjured up my future-Riv on the "what type of bike" thread (full disclosure: I also sent an email to Roman @ Riv), I guess I'll campaign for it on its own thread.

I know Grant/Riv isn't big on disc brakes, but a lot of people prefer them in the dirt. I'm not sure there's much of a market for a pricier fully-lugged disc Riv, but a Hunqapillar-ish semi-TIGed 650B model in the Clem/Roadini price range would be the bee's pajamas. Would you buy a Riv dirt bike (I'm campaigning for a small "dirt bike" decal, too) with mechanical discs?

Joe "weak hands" Bernard

[Jeff Lesperance]

Yes, without hesitation.

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[RJM]

If they offered it I would choose it and use hydraulics. I've used mechanical and hydros on mountain bikes and vastly prefer hydros and the one finger braking they offer. They allow you to brake later with more control, IMHO. 

But, V brakes aren't all that bad either. A bit grabbier than discs, but still pretty powerful. 

I have a Niner Sir9 rigid mountain bike with a Niner carbon fork and find that riding rigid, you wind up going slower downhill, so the powerful brakes operating with one finger may not be needed with a rigid bike. I still have hydros on that bike, but they are Sram brakes, so they suck. 

[Deacon Patrick]

All rim brakes are disk brakes but not all disk brakes are rim brakes. Thus, every Rivendell ever sold is disk brake compatable because rim brakes are disk brakes. Grin.

Yes, I know what you are asking, Joe. Me tongue’s firmly in me cheek. Grin. Aside from the idea of expanding into the market of people who think disk brakes are the bees knees magic answer for brakes, what does a disk brake accomplish in a way that doesn’t have equal or greater other “side effects”?

Here’s why I ask. In my exploration for weatherproof drivetrain and brakes, I naturally explored disk brakes. What I think I learned is they fundimentally change the front fork and thus the bike and how it handles, needing to be thicker to handle the increased force. Additionally, they weigh more, and are more mechanically complex, making field and home service trickier. And they aren’t weatherproof in frozen fog and similar conditions, they simply catch less road/trail detritus than rim brakes.

So, aside from the drool factor and the weak knees leaving you kneeling in your own puddle, what are you hoping to accomplish? Grin.

Oh, and to answer your question: nah. I like backpedaling to brake, and using my front disk rim brake when needed. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

Patrick, the answer for me comes in two parts:

1. I have itty bitty weak hands and REALLY liked the hydros on an ebike I owned. Riv would need to spec completes with mechanical discs for simplicity and price-point reasons, but I would ditch them for hydraulics.

2. Rivendell needs to sell bikes and I think they need one at the lower end of their price scale with discs. Discs aren't a super-fancy high end motorcycle thing anymore, they're spec'd on super-cheap mtbs and hybrids. We're about to have a whole generation of riders who just think of them as brakes, they've never used any other kind.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/03/2018 03:55 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:

Here’s why I ask. In my exploration for weatherproof drivetrain and brakes, I naturally explored disk brakes. What I think I learned is they fundimentally change the front fork and thus the bike and how it handles, needing to be thicker to handle the increased force. Additionally, they weigh more, and are more mechanically complex, making field and home service trickier. And they aren’t weatherproof in frozen fog and similar conditions, they simply catch less road/trail detritus than rim brakes.

So, aside from the drool factor and the weak knees leaving you kneeling in your own puddle, what are you hoping to accomplish? Grin.

I asked a similar question on the forums once, asking disc brake fans what they meant by "more braking power" because obviously maximum braking power is limited more by tire adhesion than anything else.  And guess what, turns out what they meant was lower lever effort -- less squeeze for the same amount of braking.  

The other obvious factor, which you've alluded to, is less or no mud on the braking surface when you ride through a mud hole that submerges the rim and tire because with a disc brake you're going to have to be very deep indeed to submerge the disc rotor in the mud... 

deep enough to have buried the pedals, and at that point you've probably got other worries on your mind.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[iamkeith]

Wait - are you saying Roman indicated that this could become a possibility?  I've avoided the temptation of posting to your other thread, because I have way too many dream bikes / fantasies / wishes.  However in regards to this particular model idea, I'll give an emphatic "yes," but with the following qualifiers:

-  I would absolutely want it to be fully-lugged.   What you're describing - a tigged, steel, disc brake, rigid, taiwan-made trail bike - is available from any number of manufacturers.  I have utility bikes.  I want a Rivendell.  (In fact, my best "what would it take to get me to buy another Riv" ideas would simply a fully-lugged Clem... in the missing sizes.)

-  It would absolutely want to have 700c/29er wheels. If' it's a "mountain bike," then why would you choose a wheel diameter that is anything less than optimum for the intended purpose?  Again, 26" mountain bikes are a dime a dozen these days.   650b gains you a mere half-inch of wheel radius and is not worth the effort to me.  (Road bikes are another story altogether, of course.)

-  It should really have a new, wider fork crown, with clearance for 2.6 or 2.8" tires.  As with diameter, why build a mountain bike that isn't as good as it can be.  In fact this would actually be the only reason I'd care about the disc part - enabling you to use adequate rims, and to be able to find them in perpetuity.

Do this in a size 56, and I'll put my money down tomorrow!

[Joe Bernard]

No no no, to be clear, the email to Roman was all my idea. We were chatting about my Cheviot that he just posted on the Blug, then I replied with my hare-brained Hunqadiscer scheme. Rivendell hasn't commented on this in any way, shape or form.

[iamkeith]

Grant made comment in the last year or so, that the idea of a "plus" sized, hunqapillar-ish bike came up several times a year among Riv staff members. Thought maybe your inquiry was dovetailing with other, ongoing concept ideas...

[iamkeith]

(Please excuse my sloppy typing and syntax in the above posts. Too much of a hurry today, and wish there was an edit feature...)

[Jeff Lesperance]

After the disc brake discussion, we should probably move on to helmet use and politics :)

Hydraulic disc brakes feel amazing - great braking with minimal hand effort and superior modulation

Disc brakes work better in wet conditions

Disc brakes make fitment of large tires easier

Disc brakes make it easier to swap wheel sizes

In every other category, rim brakes probably win. 

I feel more in control, which translates to safety, in wet/muddy conditions with hydraulic disk brakes. If I never biked in these conditions wet conditions, I'd probably not be won over by the other advantages. As a bike commuter in an moderately hilly and traffic-laden urban environment, stopping power and control are paramount. I enjoy disc brakes in other environs, but this is probably where I appreciate them the most.

In general, front forks for discs appear more stout than many boutique brand front forks that strive for a french style bend, but there's plenty that are on par with mid-tier commodity Surly and Surly-like forks. I think the introduction of country/all-road/commodity cyclocross bikes that take larger tires has reduced the need for svelte front forks that take the edge off of uneven road surfaces. 

[Joe Bernard]

Btw, Grant is going to strangle me for badgering him about discs again. Sorry, Grant! 🙃

[Deacon Patrick]

Makes sense, Joe. Thanks for explaining it for me. One could make the opposite arguement: that clear communication and phylosophy shapping Rivendell’s bikes’ quality ride on tried and true parts in a declining market raises one above the noise of the big guys whose strategy is far too often magic gimmic “progress” every year. Better educated riders over time will influence the market that survives a downturn for the better whne the upturn comes round again.

Jeff said: “In general, front forks for discs appear more stout than many boutique brand front forks that strive for a french style bend, but there's plenty that are on par with mid-tier commodity Surly and Surly-like forks.”

Exactly, and how much of the Rivendell feel and handling is because of the steel forks? Some appreciable amount, I suspect. They absorb a lot of road chatter because they aren’t beefy. That, in turn, improves handling and ease of holding a line.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

Joe said: “Btw, Grant is going to strangle me for badgering him about discs again. Sorry, Grant! 🙃”

And after he helped you get a grip (or two) too! Grin. Ducking now.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Jeff Lesperance]

On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote:

Jeff said: “In general, front forks for discs appear more stout than many boutique brand front forks that strive for a french style bend, but there's plenty that are on par with mid-tier commodity Surly and Surly-like forks.”

Exactly, and how much of the Rivendell feel and handling is because of the steel forks? Some appreciable amount, I suspect. They absorb a lot of road chatter because they aren’t beefy. That, in turn, improves handling and ease of holding a line.

Agree - fat tires help some, but the bike I replace my Sam H with in the interest of going with discs just doesn't have the same magic feeling that Sam had, but I'm not sure I attribute that entirely with the fork. Handling involves a lot of factors, many I don't fully understand but I can tell when a bike feels good to me and when it doesn't, and accept that there's a sliding scale, it's not black and white. The trade off is worth it for me at this time, to ride a disc-braked bike vs. a Rivendell for a majority of my riding. If I'd never had a Sam, I'd think my Space Horse was the best bike I've ever had the pleasure to ride.

I'd posit that my old Sam would probably feel better than my current Space Horse, if I could somehow install my Space Horse fork on Sam - there's other things that made it great outside of the fork. Hence why I'm saying I'd not hesitate to buy a Sam-like Riv or Hunq-like Riv with disc brakes. 

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Jeff. Yes, there is a lot to bike handling in addition to front fork. Grin. I also agree with you that a Grant designed disk brake bike would ride better than most all disk brake bikes. But would the change be more than Grant is willing to do? Only one person can answer that question. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[RJM]

This is an addition to my previous reply in this thread. 

I've ridden the same local mtb trails on my cyclocross bike (carbon Kona Jake the Snake), my Santa Cruz Hightower, and my Niner Sir9 and they all offer a different experience...I would think a Rivendell Hunqadiscer would offer a different experience too probably a cross between the cyclocross bike and the Niner If I were picking, I would want a fully lugged version. I just think those beautiful lugs really set Rivs apart from a lot of builders.  I'd honestly hock my Hightower and the Niner for one.

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 2:30:33 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:

[drew]

Yes I would.
I tried to avoid disc talk in the other thread because I know how these conversations devolve and it seems like it definitely won’t happen.

That said, I think Rivendell is needlessly eliminating a huge market by not at least being open to discs. A market that you can see others sliding in to fill.

Ive never owned a disc braked bike and I stop fine. At the same time, It seems unnecessarily stubborn to completely rule out another way of stopping a bike. I mean that’s all it is. How a bike stops shouldn’t be integral to anyone’s being.

I love Rivendell and everything they stand for, and I think one disc model would bring in a lot of business and not sacrifice any integrity. I’d like to see them all as wildly rich and successful as humanly possible. So yes. I’d buy it immediately.

[Joe Bernard]

What can I say, Patrick, I'm a happy customer who always wants more Riv stuff. Sometimes I'm annoying about it! 😉

[Deacon Patrick]

You and me both, Joe! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

The argument that a hypothetical mechanical disc Riv would be cheaper appears to be built on the fallacy that mechanical disc brakes are less expensive than hydraulic disc brakes. They are not. Hydraulic disc brakes are super cheap and super awesome. Mechanical discs are for people who have a particular brake lever they want to use, or people who are intimidated mechanically by hydraulics. Even dirt cheap bikes come with hydraulic disc brakes now.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[Joe Bernard]

You're right, Bill, I assumed hydros were more expensive. But mechanicals can - as you say - use regular levers and cables, so that's how I see a disc Riv being spec'd.

[William!]

That's how I spec'd my Atlantis when I converted it to discs. Feels very Rivendellian in terms of maintenance, setup and fussy-ness. I think it looks Rivendellian too – in so far as most folks don't even notice.

William

[Dave Grossman]

I don't feel Riv would be Riv with discs.  Are they going to spec XT hydros with an Altus mech?  Are you going to build a full 1x11 XT Hunqa?  That just doesn't seem Riv to me.   The fact that they spec bikes with parts that could have been found 30 years ago is what makes them endearing.  They don't buck to trends, but what is practical, reliable, and beautiful.  I own two bikes with Hydros and one with mechs.  The hyrdos are amazing.  No doubt.  But I just don't think I'd buy a Riv with one.  

Now doing 130mm spacing on the Sam.........that I dig!

[Joe Bernard]

I'm not proposing a hydro Riv, that's a swap I would make myself at home. A Hunqadiscer would come with the same levers, cranks and derailers as any other trail-ready Riv, it would just have mechanical discs instead of rim brakes.

[iamkeith]

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 5:19:36 PM UTC-7, Dave Grossman wrote:

... The fact that they spec bikes with parts that could have been found 30 years ago is what makes them endearing.  ....

^ This is true.  However, because I'm the kind of guy who will only buy a bike that I believe I could ride for the NEXT 30 years if I so desired, I think disc brakes are starting to make more sense than not.   It is very difficult to find suitably wide rim brake rims even now, with Velocity Cliffhangers and possibly Kris Holm being the only ones I can even think of.   

Discs have evolved to the point where there is a set of standards that will likely be available for many, many years to come:  6-bolt rotor hub mounting & 51mm I.S. caliper mounting.  There were other standards that didn't stick, and the desperate fashion-pedaling side of the bike industry will of course try to invent new standards, but I'm betting they will continue to be marginalized by pushback from fed up consumers.  

Paul components has a habit of discontinuing products before they've outlived their usefulness, but the fact that they actually even make boutique, american-made, blingy, disc calipers right now eliminates the "too ugly / too modern-looking argument," and further speaks to the maturity of the standards.

Once again, I think the most legitimate reasons for considering discs are the doors they open in terms of tire width and rim availability but, after resisting the argument for a long time, even I now believe that those are reason enough for Riv to consider.  It's not like they're Amish or something, where there was an arbitrary, historical point in technological advancement beyond which they are not allowed to venture.  Otherwise, they'd be selling only loose-bearing bottom brackets instead of cartridges or, better yet, cottered cranks instead of square taper.

[EasyRider]

If Riv did a Scapegoat-ish plus bike, that'd be a disc bike, wouldn't it? I think so, for practical reasons and intended use. The Hubbuh tandem has a disc mount for a drag brake, so it's not like Riv is morally opposed to the technology.

FWIW, I get one finger braking with good modulation using Paul touring cantis and non aero diacompe gran compe levers on moustache bars. The difference in pivot point compared to aero levers seems to make a big difference. I think the setup is handsome as all get out and it makes me want to ride the bike.

I like all bike parts but IMHO, rim brakes are among the nicest to look at. Is there an attractive disc caliper out there that would look good with lugs?

Pete

[Chris Lampe 2]

I don't really have an interest in disc brakes but a tig welded Hunqapillar clone in the clem frameset price range would make me a happy man.  

[Mark in Beacon]

 Drew wrote: It seems unnecessarily  stubborn to completely rule out another way of stopping a bike. I mean that’s all it is. How a bike stops shouldn’t be integral to anyone’s being. 

You are so right. And you know, making a bicycle out of carbon fiber or aluminum or bamboo is just another way of making a bicycle. What a huge market for those! And electronic shifting? 11 speed? Gianormous potential! Many a small company has lost its focus by this "logic." It perhaps makes sense to be all things to all people if you want to grow and compete with Trek and Specialized and Giant. But otherwise, you risk losing much of what makes your company unique. I can't remember the exact thread right this minute but I know Grant very recently talked about a line in the sand. Sometimes, it makes sense to redraw it a little--The New York Times going to color, bringing back the original Coke recipe, Rivendell making some lower priced tigged models--but move it far enough, you've gone too far from your center, and who are you now? You'd better be ready, willing, and able to sell the rest of your soul and go mano a mano with the big boys and girls. 

Maybe, just maybe, Rivendell will one day make a disc bike. I certainly would not hold it against the company. But it would not come from the same place as the other Rivendell bicycle designs, would it? And anyway, what then? Will it have clearance for 2.3 vs. 2.1? Is that with or without fenders? Will it be of the lugged or tigged variety? Please, NO HEARTS!! Will it have a fancy curved Crust style disc fork or a straight fork? Will it be thru axle? Will it come in my favorite color? Man, I'd be all over this if it came in 58.75cm! Why do they always skip my size? Fixed gear, yo! What about a disc Roadeo but with some rear rack braze-ons and clearance for 34.5mm with fenders? That's the one I want! Cheviut, with cantis and disc, oh yeah. Wait, it costs how much? I can get a blah blah for half that! I know it probably doesn't phase Grant much, but whew, I think I'd sometimes get exhausted heading up a bicycle company that gives half a darn.

How a bike stops is not integral to anyone's being. Amen to that! 

Note: Just in case it is not self evident, all of the above is written in the spirit of My Opinion, and without any bad temper, though maybe a smidge of sheesh!

[Mark in Beacon]

I think I said this some time ago in one of the previous disc-ussions, but I would think if RBW were to go in this direction, it might be with a design from one of the non-Grant designers at the company, who have been working on the Rosco projects.

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 10:28:56 PM UTC-5, Mark in Beacon wrote:

 Maybe, just maybe, Rivendell will one day make a disc bike. I certainly would not hold it against the company. out another way of stopping a bike. I mean that’s all it is. How a bike stops shouldn’t be integral to anyone’s being. 

[Joe Bernard]

Well Mark, this thread is an offshoot of the one asking about potential Rivs which don't exist, so that's the spirit of Hunqadiscer. And yes, I would think it would originate from one of the youngsters as Clem did. That's why I brought it up with Roman instead of Grant, who'd rather have a hole in his head than listen to another one of my hare-brained Riv schemes.

I think a disc Riv would sell, and I don't think it would be a radical departure from what in all other ways would be a traditional steel Rivendell bicycle.

[Joe Bernard]

Also, the question isn't whether folks think a disc Riv is acceptable. The question is if anybody wants one, thereby presuming they would buy it. The answer is yes.

[Mark in Beacon]

I know it's undertaken in a helpful spirit, Joe. You must cut me some slack, as I am of the opinion that our modern civilization truly went off the rails when the telephone climbed down off the kitchen wall. If you start advocating for chainsaws, that will be another story. (I will say that a departure need not be radical to cause a fundamental shift.) 

[drew]

Id ask what the line in the sand leads to? I’d like to think that Rivendell is smart enough and creative enough to own a minor mechanical change and figure out a way to make it fit with their brand.

Somehow crust and bmc and many others have been able to remain unique while embracing all sorts of modern componentry. Nobody is confusing them with specialized.

Again, I say this as a person who’s never owned a disc bike or a threadless headset or brifters. It just doesn’t make sense to me to draw lines in sands over stopping a bike with a big disc or a little ones.

[Joe Bernard]

Drew, to play devil's advocate for why Grant would tell me discs are a no go, I don't think he's thrilled with the stresses the front one puts into the fork. For someone who's invested so much of his design ethos into a lovely, slender fork, I can see why this would concern him.

[drew]

Sure, and that’s a valid reason (I’m playing devil’s advocate myself for the aforementioned reasons), but it’s not a line in the sand. Especially for road and all rounder style bikes. That’s a totally valid point of view.
If we are talking hunqapillar/mountainy/plus bike (which I thought we were) then id argue that that point of view becomes less valid.

[Joe Bernard]

Agreed, which is how I talked myself into a disc Riv dirt bike. I can't see discs on any other models.

[Joe Bernard]

Hey, it could be worse, Mark. I could still be going on about Rivs with electric motors ;-)

[Jeremy Tavan]

I volunteer to pick up that torch in a few months when the Bimoz motor for my MTBubbe comes in.

[Mark in Beacon]

Lines drawn in the sand don't lead to anything; they are something. Specialized was used to make the point that if you wander past your line in the sand one too many times, you can become just another generic bicycle company. Because it does not make sense to you where someone else decides to draw their line isn't the point, is it?  Of course Rivendell could design a disc model, and they would of course sell some, and they could make it fit with the brand--or, more accurately, change the brand philosophy, which has repeatedly given reasons why discs are not needed for the company's bicycles--or indeed for the  majority of most bicycles for most people most of the time. They have so far chosen not to make a bicycle for those times when a disc may have an advantage. So what. Crust is Crust. BMC is BMC. Rivendell is Rivendell. Why insist they all be uniquely the same? Vive la différence. 

[Mark in Beacon]

Just to be clear, and I'm starting to regret bringing up this phrase in the first place, a line in the sand is not a brand or marketing distinction. Obviously Rivendell is not The Bicycle Company Without Discs Ever Since 1994. And no, if they made a disc bike I wouldn't look at it as selling out. I'm really just agreeing with them that most bikes don't need them, and that sticking up for that is worthwhile, even if in the end it is somewhat symbolic, and defending their right to do it without catching too much grief. I don't think making or not making a disc bike will make or break Rivendell. I just happen to believe that making these kinds of choices is important, and it's often thought we don't even have them to make, but sometimes we do.

[rw1911]

I wrote a big, long response sharing my personal experiences with moving to new tech related to bikes and cars, but in the end, I came to the same place...

Why not?  Disc brakes are good.  Maybe they they don't have the character or aesthetics of our beloved rim brakes, but they are good, even better when added to the already wonderful qualities of a Riv. (lugged Hunqadiscer for me please)

[Steve Butcher]

I was thinking the very same thing, recently, Chris.  My "grail" bike has been a Hunqapillar;  but I simply find obtaining one cost prohibitive.

Steve "el cheapo" Butcher

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/04/2018 02:57 AM, rw1911 wrote:
> I wrote a big, long response sharing my personal experiences with
> moving to new tech related to bikes and cars, but in the end, I came
> to the same place...
>
> Why not?  Disc brakes are good.  Maybe they they don't have the
> character or aesthetics of our beloved rim brakes, but they are good,
> even better when added to the already wonderful qualities of a Riv.
> (lugged Hunqadiscer for me please)
>
>

Why not?  Well, two reasons might be that they require ultra-stiff forks
that destroy that nice ride you admire, and that they seem to go hand in
hand with the adoption of new standards that make the use of those parts
that are so characteristic of Rivendell builds out of the question.

[Mark in Beacon]

Again, sure, why not? But that doesn't mean someone else can't look at bicycle braking technologies and decide, with equal validity, why? It may not be a popular decision, it may be seen as "impeding progress" or simply as stubborn. But it doesn't make it wrong. This decision by itself may or may not be a game changer, but as more and more of these choices acrue, the path changes irrevocably. I know everyone says cars are so much better now than back in the day, but most guys no longer have the tools or the $100,000 diagnostic computer needed to tinker with them, never mind teach their sons. And a rear view mirror, which you could once adjust by rolling down the window and giving it a twist, is now electronically operated and costs a fortune to replace or fix. We see all the shiny positives in these developments and plunge in wholeheartedly, but truly, there are drawbacks, both for individuals and society. The best choice there would have been to limit our use of cars and design things around trains and trolleys and bicycles and walking. You make cars more "efficient" and "safe" and then you fall into things like Jevon's Paradox, and now you need more parking lots and roads and other infrastructure and maintaining it all, not to mention the increased time humans spend in automobiles shuffling ourselves about. And as we know, that's just the tip of the problem's iceberg.

[William Henderson]

Switching my Atlantis to disc brakes represents somewhat of a controlled experiment, and I can tell you that if anything changed about the “ride quality” it is undetectable. Perhaps on a road bike with skinny tires it would be different.

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[Joe Bernard]

"..and that they seem to go hand in

hand with the adoption of new standards that make the use of those parts
that are so characteristic of Rivendell builds out of the question."

How do discs "seem" to do this on a bicycle I've repeatedly described as using all normal Riv parts aside from the brakes? Let's take 4 Rivs stout enough for pounding around on trails: Hunqapillar, Atlantis, Appaloosa and Clem. Put a standard Riv build on them, then have the cables end at discs instead of v-brakes or cantis. The only things that have changed are no rim brakes and the hubs are disc compatible. Maybe you need disc compatible racks, but there's a ton of them out there. I don't see the problem you're describing.

[Addison Wilhite]

I adore and prize my Allrounder.  It's the last and only Riv I own.  The only time I lust for another Riv is the occasional Legolas pang.  If a Hunqapillar 650b disc came out it would shoot to the top of my bike desire list.  Easily.  Rocky descents here in Nevada make it difficult to enjoy singletrack without discs anymore.  

+1 for a disc Riv.

Addison Wilhite, M.A. 

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”

Educator: Professional Portfolio

Blogger: Reno Rambler

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[Bob K.]

IME, mechanical disc brakes work really well. Hydros work really, really well. I agree with you, Mark, that we humans tend to embrace new technology rather quickly, often without considering consequences. However, mechanical disc brakes on a bike are—at this point—tried and true. I’m a philistine and a ham-fisted novice bike mechanic, and I’ve been able to figure out how to adjust both hydraulic and mechanical disc brakes by watching a couple of YouTube videos. The cr720s on my Sam are much more annoying to set up, actually. In other words, I don’t think mechanical disc brakes on a bike are one of those technologies of which we should be wary.

I have no skin in the game here. I likely wouldn’t buy a disc Hunq because I already like the disc Surly Troll I own. I also don’t think Riv will make a disc-braked bike, but it’s fun to dream.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Joe Bernard]

The mechanical discs on my Bike Friday are definitely easier to set up than the Paul Racers on my Pashley.

I think there will be a disc-braked Riv eventually, but Grant and I will probably be riding disc-braked electric trikes by the time it happens ;-)

[Mark in Beacon]

I am going to rest my case {sustained applause} but I do want to clarify, the main tenet  of my position has little to do with the efficacy of the technology or the ease of setup, at least not in the conventional sense. I had disc brakes on several cargo bikes and, briefly, a folder that came my way. They worked okay, if a bit noisy. I am sure I could learn to work on them. I have already used more than my allotted space on this and other threads trying to explain my reasoning for  not being enamored of disc brakes for basic, single rider non extreme bicycles. By the  way, like jumbo shrimp, electric bicycle is an oxymoron;^]

Anyway, there is no doubt discs are here to stay, and have infiltrated virtually every segment of the bicycle market. Which makes pining for a disc braked Rivendell a little weird, since you can already get one virtually any place else you care to go. I get that some think it will help the company economically,  but I kinda don't see it having that much impact.

[Joe Bernard]

I don't think it's weird to want discs on a Riv. I like the Riv aesthetic and ride, and it's completely unique to that company. I can go somewhere else to get the brakes I want, but I can't get somewhere else to duplicate a Rivendell frame for them. So I'm answering the question "what other Riv would you buy" from the other thread with this answer: Hunqadiscer.

[RJM]

Even though I would choose a disc Hunq if they offered it, I do agree with what you wrote, Mark. Rivs stop pretty well already and they just don't really need to add a disc brake unless it's warranted, like with the tandem.

[Ian A]

Magura make a hydro V brake. You don't have to go disc to get one finger braking.

IanA

[Justin, Oakland]

Every time someone makes the argument about unneeded complexity of hydro discs I think to the geometry charts that people reference for setting up cantilevers, laugh to myself, and keep going.

I’d get a disc Hunq. But honestly I’d probably just get a Jones at that point. Same approach in mindset to ride and utility without the worry about tradition.

-J

[EasyRider]

Kinda surprising that more people haven't done as William, and had disc mounts added their Atlantis, Hunq, Sam, etc., What would it cost, a few hundred? Plus repaint? Or maybe get Waterford to make a disc fork? I'd guess that'd be 400-500. Anyway, a lot less than buying a new disc Riv, were one to exist.

Pete

[William Henderson]

Cost was $450 for a custom fork (matches original except disc tab and stoutness) and ~200 to add a tab to the frame. ISO mounts.

I already needed a paint job and a new fork, so it was a no brainer for me.

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 6:50 PM EasyRider <peter...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kinda surprising that more people haven't done as William, and had disc mounts added their Atlantis, Hunq, Sam, etc., What would it cost, a few hundred? Plus repaint? Or maybe get Waterford to make a disc fork? I'd guess that'd be 400-500. Anyway, a lot less than buying a new disc Riv, were one to exist.

Pete

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[Bill Schairer]

I’m married to an artist and there are pieces she has been asked to make that she just doesn’t want to make. The love is not there. I happen to think of bicycles as pieces of art. If the love is not there for the artist, I’m not sure the end product would meet the artist’s own standards and that is reason enough for not making it.

Bill

[DarinM]

Those of you who want a disc-Riv, how would you feel about Rivendell offering just a disc fork option for a few of the exiting bikes? The front brake does most of our braking anyways, the rear is arguably only there for emergency use, except for maybe on dedicated MTB's which Riv doesn't really offer anyways. 

It may simplify things for them while also keeping everyone happy as you could order one or the other with your frame. I ask as someone who doesn't really see where discs would fit in their current line-up anyways, aside from maybe the Hunq. 

Darin in eastern WA

[Jeffrey Arita]

Joe,

A bit of background for you here:  Been cycling seriously since 1987.  Ever since disc brakes came out I thought they were just another way for the cycling marketers to sell more stuff....I did not buy into this 'new tech.'  I continued to ride a v-brake equipped bike.  We live here in dry Southern California, so of course the v-brakes worked brilliantly.  With the 'old' mountain bike looking long in the tooth, I went looking for a new one.  Upon examining all of the disc-brake equipped bikes, I lamented to the poor salesperson "why aren't there any v-brake equipped atb's out there??  He looked at me as if I were from Mars of course.....I finally broke down and bought a brand spankin' new mountain bike, equipped with XTR hydraulic brakes.  After riding it on my favorite off-road loop I was a convert.  The power and touch those brakes provide is amazing.  Sometimes technology is a good thing.  This past year went on the Divide and used disc brake equipped bikes.  25 mile long downhills could do some serious abrasion to rims.  The disc rotors sacrificed themselves as easily replaceable components.......

So, yes, I would definitely consider a disc-brake equipped Riv.

Good luck!

Jeff  

[Patrick Moore]

I won't quarrel with Rivendell if it never makes a disc brake bike, but as to disc brake technology itself -- and I speak as a bitter, aging disparager of so much of modernity* -- I have to agree with Jeffrey. Disc brakes do work well, and solve a number of problems that other types of brakes bring with them. 

Me, I use the venerable (and by now, it is venerable) BB7 road model; and despite disparaging reports, it is a perfectly adequate brake, even with 160 mm rotors f and r. I say "adequate" -- it's not more powerful than the best cantis or V brakes or calipers; but it works as well or better than most of these, at least IME. Hydraulics apparently are better still, but I've not use them. And discs of any sort allow you to run very light rims in dirt without fear of grinding them to destruction in short order -- those are my 2 principal reason for using the BB7s.

But my main point is the adequacy of even the oldest of the cable discs: they work fine. Even if they're not the most powerful, or if modulation is not the best; even with the weight penalty and the careful adjustment to avoid pad rub -- they just work, and work well. Power (= retardation with respect to hand effort, as well as absolute retardation), modulation (on par with V brakes), noise (squeak when dusty), rub (you have to know the compromise between pad travel and pad force), pad wear, weight (at least the additional wheel weight is at the hub and not the rim) -- all of these are within quite acceptable limits, it seems to me, when compared to any rim brake I've used, and I've used very many.

* I hope that most readers are not too unimaginatively earnest.

[Joe Bernard]

Bill, have you ever known Grant to design or sell a bike thing he's not interested in? Of course I don't expect him to do a disc Riv, it's just a request with the thinking that maybe youngsters at RBW could spearhead it. It'd be cool if it happened, but I'll keep buying frames and parts from them regardless. I like Riv stuff!

[Steven Sweedler]

I rode the Great Divide with older Shimano cantis and never felt ill equipped. The last piece I read here from Grant I thought covered his feelings pretty well. Keep it simple. Steve

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[William Henderson]

Ah, the mythical Hunqamullet: performance in the front, classic in the back.

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[Jonny P]

I mean, it may just be me, but I feel like the Crust Romanceur with a 26" wheelset is a great alternative for those of you wanting a Disc Hunqapillar-ish bike at a Taiwan price.

I am still lusting after a true Hunqapillar, but my Romanceur with Velocity Duallys and RTP tires is pretty darned comparable to my friends 56cm 650b Hunqapillar that I rode. The Hunq just felt a little bit longer/heavy/Rivendell-esque.

Jonathan

Seattle, WA

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 12:30:33 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Paul Choi]

The Romanceur is very similar to an Atlantis with discs. It is a good deal at $1275. 

26 x 2.3 or 650b x 48 with fenders. 

[Jeremy Till]

I actually bought my Clem frame specifically because it could fit 29" tires and came with v-brake mounts, as I wanted to build up a v-brake 29er, and there are extremely few frames currently available that allow you to do so.  At the time the other option was the Surly Ogre, which now is less attractive to me because they've gone to a "gnot-boost" rear dropout setup that requires special spacers to run a 10x135mm. So allow me to express my gratitude to Grant and Co for continuing to support those of us that want rim brakes, big wheels, and "standard" hubs. 

[Eamon Nordquist]

The Romanceur is a cool bike, and certainly has some Rivendell inspiration, but its front end geometry is quite different from the Atlantis. They are both meant for touring, and can take fat tires, but the Romanceur has much lower trail than the Atlantis. It is intended to favor front loading. Awesome if that’s what you want, but really only visually similar to a Rivendell.

Eamon
Seattle, WA
p.s. no desire from me for a disc braked Riv (or any other bike except a Jones), although I understand people wanting one AND Grant not wanting to make one.

[Davey Two Shoes]

Sounds like a pretty Karate Monkey to me

[Joe Bernard]

You think a Hunqapillar with disc brakes is the same as a Surly? By that reasoning it's the same as any steel mountain bike with disc brakes. I'm sorry, but only Rivendells look and ride like a Rivendell, which why I want my discs on that bike.