Glider add-on for power pilot without recency?

[Chris Behm]

I know that this has been asked before, probably ad nauseum, in the first RAS, but I will bring it up again, here, so that it is less painful for me.

We have an older gent at the club taking lessons. He has a non-current pilot cert for power and is trying to do an "add-on" glider cert.

As far as I know, he doesn't intend to bring his power cert up to being current, probably due to not wanting to jump through whatever hoops for the medical cert.

What are his options?

Thanks in advance.

Chris Behm

304DD

[Armand Charbonneau]

Does the transistion pilot have a current Flight Review (formally termed BFR)?  One is required before solo in an aircraft for which he does not have a rating.  

Can this pilot self-certify he is heathy enough to fly?  

His options depend on how these questions are answered.  

[Chris Behm]

Hi, Armand-

No, no current flight review. I think that he intends to go that route, though, just talked to him about options.

He can self-certify that he is healthy enough to fly a glider, he says.

He said that he doesn't want to take a myriad of tests by doctors to get his med cert. And he is a looking a bit like a higher BMI, so I am sure that would also be discussed. 

Thank you for your response.

Chris

[verhulst.t...@gmail.com]

Sorry to our non US members of this forum.
Because your friend is rated he does not fall under FAR 61.87. Therefore, he cannot solo a glider without a current flight review. What he can do, and we've done this several times at the Greater Boston Soaring club, is for him to qualify for a Wings Phase under the FAA Wings program. If he takes the required ground courses and the required airwork with a CFIG, the completion of the Basic Wings Phase also completes the requirements of a flight review. See https://www.faasafety.gov/files/events/SO/SO35/2022/SO35109598/Common_WINGS_Flight_Activities_And_How_To_Request.pdf.

As this friend is of the plus size, it is critical that this person can enter and exit the glider unassisted. We have had to turn a prospective member away due to this difficulty.

Tony CFIG

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[christopher behm]

Ding ding ding, "Winner!" 😁

Thanks Tony, that is the path that we are headed towards. 

And thank you for the link, also. 

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From: verhulst.t...@gmail.com <verhulst.t...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2025 4:05:01 PM
To: rasp...@googlegroups.com <rasp...@googlegroups.com>; Chris Behm <cbb...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [RAS_Prime] Re: Glider add-on for power pilot without recency?

 

[Steve Dee]

Since he is a certified pilot, he must have a current Flight Review prior to solo ( acting as PIC) in the glider. In addition, he will need, as a minimum, an endorsement under FAR 61.31 (d) (2).

Steve Dee, DPE

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 12, 2025, at 5:30 PM, Chris Behm <cbb...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hi, Armand-

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[Lawrence Spinetta]

Sport Pilot - Glider.  No need for a flight review.  He can fly dual with 2 CFIGs for certification.  

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[christopher behm]

Hi Lawrence. 

If I'm not mistaken, sport pilot is limited to 10K MSL, so here in the SW USA, that would be very restrictive. 

Am i mistaken?

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From: rasp...@googlegroups.com <rasp...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Lawrence Spinetta <lawrence...@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [RAS_Prime] Glider add-on for power pilot without recency?

 

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[verhulst.t...@gmail.com]

The sport pilot is also limited to gliders with a Vne of 120 CAS. See items 3 below. At GBSC, this would restrict the sport pilot to 3 out of our 9 gliders. Thanks to Bill Tisdale for pointing that out.

Light-sport aircraft   means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than—

(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or

(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.

(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider.

(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity.

(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.

(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.

(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider.

(8) A fixed or feathering propeller system if a powered glider.

(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.

(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.

(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider.

(12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.

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[Armand Charbonneau]

The Sport Pilot can train and solo in a glider.  After meeting the solo requirements, then take a Practical Exam for a Commercial or Private Glider Rating.

I have been in discussions about this technique, but never tried it.  It is not the easiest way.

Armand Charbonneau

469-236-8224

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[Lawrence Spinetta]

That's easily overcome with just a CFI solo endorsement with no limitation. importantly, doing it that way means that the pilot doesn't have to redo his powered flight review.  

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[Steve Dee]

Lawrence-

Please read FAR 61.65 (c) (1) and (2), and explain why the individual in question does not need a flight review. He is not a Student Pilot; according to the above, he is a "certified pilot in powered aircraft," which indicates to me a Private Pilot or higher with SEL Category. He must comply with the requirement for a Flight Review. 

Steve

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[Lawrence Spinetta]

Because no minimum training hours and thus no solo hours are required for a Sport Pilot Add On for a licenced powered  pilot.  

He can do all the training dual with the PIC being his ight instructor. 

The Proficiency  check with a 2nd CFIG would renew flight review. 

 

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[Armand Charbonneau]

Lawrence, I would not risk my CFI rating/commercial license and the ship's insurance (if an accident) with that strategy.    FAR 61.65 has been tested and there was a letter determination from the FAA on this matter.  I do not agree with the FAA's ruling for requiring a pilot to get the Flight Review "in an aircraft for which they are rated", but that is the rule.

There is a good work around for the problem that my club's flight school has used.

Armand Charbonneau

469-236-8224

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[Cliff Hilty]

Yes I agree with Steve, the only work around Im aware of is to use the faa wings program to fufill the flight review. If you complete 3 online courses (using glider oriented ones) and then are assigned flight maneuvers by the program which can be done with your CFIG. This will satisfy the requirements of a flight review, and then can legally solo in gliders. IIRC More info on the SSF's web site.

Cliff

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[Bill Tisdale]

Ok, a few confusing issues in this thread.

Lawrence is correct, If a individual with a Sport Pilot-Airplane or higher is beyond his 61.56 Flight Review date, (24 months). He can train for Sport Pilot Glider "additional aircraft" under 61.321. There are no minimum times required listed for either dual received or solo. An appropriate Light Sport Glider needs to be available for use. Completing the 8710-11 with two Glider CFIs would restart the 61.56 FR requirement.

If an individual with no Light Sport rating would need to meet the requirements of 61.313

As Cliff stated. A rated pilot with expired FR can meet the FR requirements by completing the Wings Program to at least the Basic level during his dual training prior to solo. 61.56(e)

Armond, there is nothing in 61.56(e) that states the Wings FR must be completed in "an aircraft for which he is rated". 61.56(e) is listed as an exception to 61.56(c)(1) that you quote.

Bill

[Piet Barber]

Hey Target, 

Dee, Tisdale and Hilty are correct.  Tisdale is 100% correct about WINGS and I feel the need to pile on. There has to be some sort of compliance with 61.56 every 24 months. The rated pilot receiving training in gliders isn't a student pilot, and can't hide under 14 CFR 61.56(g).  The compliance with 61.56 doesn't necessarily have to be a flight review like we've always done.   WINGS is a great way to solve this problem. 

Problem: Your friend needs to have some sort of compliance with 61.56.  Back in the old days they called that a BFR, but the FAA doesn't use that term anymore. 

Back before 2014, there was a loose interpretation that if a transition pilot is receiving flight instruction to solo in a different category, that transition pilot didn't need to be compliant with 61.56.  Then somebody went and asked the FAA for an interpretation, and the FAA gifted us with "The Beard Interpretation" 

You can find it here: https://www.faa.gov/media/11696 . The Beard interpretation pretty much looked at 61.56(c) and said, "solo pilot means he needs to be in compliance, and thus needs to be 61.56-compliant" 

After the Beard interpretation, we had a bunch of people who were in the situation of "Jim-Bob here has an airplane rating, hasn't gotten his glider rating yet, and he has sworn that he is never ever going to fly airplanes again."  Now he can't go get a 61.56(a) flight review (because he doesn't want to fly in airplanes anymore) and he can't go solo a glider after receiving a 61.31(d)(2) solo endorsement.  He needs ten solo glider flights before he can be qualified to take the practical test. This is quite the catch-22! 

Your friend could go get a 61.56(a) flight review in an airplane if he is so inclined.  That will solve this problem. However, this is not the only way to solve this problem. 

There is one more way to comply with 61.56, so Jim-Bob doesn't ever have to set foot in an airplane again, and he can go solo legally after he gets the 61.31 solo endorsement.   That answer is WINGS. 

"Piet! You're wrong! 61.56 specifically states that you have to have your flight review in an aircraft that you're rated for!" 

While strictly speaking, it is correct (14 CFR 61.56(c)(1)). However, it is also incomplete. I'm not saying Jim-Bob needs to complete a flight review in gliders before he's got a glider rating. WINGS is not a flight review.  It's WINGS training. Completion of a phase of WINGS exempts you from having to accomplish the flight review. 

"Piet! the FAA is going to come get me and cancel my instructor rating if I do this!" 

Please stop saying this, too.  This is not correct. WINGS isn't a flight review, it's WINGS training. The rules you know about a flight review don't apply to WINGS training. 

I see you're not convinced.  Let's go through this step-by-step.  Let's read 61.56 together, shall we? 

Let's go straight to 61.56 (e)

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/part-61/section-61.56#p-61.56(e)

  > A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily accomplished one or more phases of an FAA-sponsored pilot proficiency program need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

  

See that stuff I highlighted? If you've done WINGS in the last 24 months, you NEED NOT ACCOMPLISH THE FLIGHT REVIEW. 

So if a pilot has completed a phase of the WINGS training in the last 24 calendar months, that pilot doesn't have to have accomplished the 61.56(c) flight review, and therefore doesn't have to have done 1 hour ground instruction about part 91, that pilot doesn't have to have completed 1 hour of flight instruction in a category/class/type that the pilot has a rating for. 

There is no prohibition against an airplane pilot receiving WINGS training in a glider. There is no regulation against it. The software doesn't prevent you from doing it. There are no FAA documents or interpretations specifically prohibiting the practice.  In fact, the argument that you need to have at least a Private Pilot rating to accomplish any WINGS training activities is also not supported by any evidence.  In fact, I have evidence to the contrary: the SSF has worked with the FAA to hand out WINGS flight activities based on the SSA A Badge, which can be given out after a student completes his first solo. 

Your friend isn't a student pilot.  61.56 says some something here has to be accomplished every 24 months.  It can be a flight review in a sport airplane, it can be a new rating, it can be a completion of a phase of WINGS. 

So here's how your friend does it: 

1) go get all the flight instruction he needs to be "ready-to-solo" in a glider. 

2) Pick any three of these activities for the flight activity for the WINGS 

• A100125-32 G-Air Work
• A100125-31: G-Ground and Takeoff Tasks
• A070405-26: G-Slow Flight, Stall, Soaring Steep Turns
• A070405-135: G-Takeoffs, Launches, Landings, Downwind Landings
• A070405-134: G-Takeoffs, Launches, Landings, Slips
• A070405-25: G-Takeoffs, Launches, Landings, Slips

3) After each of these flight activities, get the flight instructor to note that the flight activity has successfully been completed in WINGS. 

4) Complete three other knowledge activities. They don't need to be glider related. They can be any FAA knowledge activities that qualify for the phase of training you're seeking. 

5) make sure that the three flight activities and 3 knowledge activities are correctly documented in the FAA WINGS portal. 

6) make sure that the WINGS system says you've completed a phase of the training

7) print out that neat little completion certificate that fits in your logbook. 

8) paste it somewhere in the back of the logbook. 

9) Optionally, have your instructor write an endorsement stating that you've completed a phase of WINGS. (AC 61-65J endorsement A.66)

After the WINGS training is complete, he's clear with regards to part 61.56.  In order to solo, he'll just need a 61.31(d)(2) and 61.31(j) launch endorsement, and he's ready to solo gliders. Make sure it's not a 61.87 endorsement. That's the wrong endorsement. 

Your friend could also surrender his airman certificate and then apply for a student pilot certificate.  Don't do that. Also, don't have your friend get a sport pilot license. It's kind of pointless for gliders.  The restrictions are pretty huge. I don't think anybody with a sport glider rating could solo any of the gliders in my club, their top speed is too high. 

Full disclosure: for me personally, I haven't had a flight review in years, I just do WINGS training now. Any time I happen to take a flight instructor up in the Duo for a fun flight, I make sure that we accomplish all of the flight activities along the way, and I get those signed off by that instructor. I do this often enough that there's never any drama when it comes time for me to get a flight review.

[David S]

Marvelous explanation, Piet.  I would only add one bit of advice that I received during CFI-G training: add an expiration clause to the solo endorsement (AC 61-65J endorsement A.72).  Otherwise, the pilot can fly solo for the rest of their days without ever completing their glider rating.  Unlike the student solo requirements in 61.87(n, p), there is no 90-day expiration in 61.31(d)(2).

Without an expiration clause, and you might be called to account if the pilot is involved in an incident in the next year or two. 

Cheers,

   ...david

[Bill Tisdale]

Thanks Piet,

I have a handout for the instructors in our club that outlines all of the "exemptions" outlined in 61.56 with the WINGS events being the major point.

Bill

On Wednesday, January 15, 2025 at 10:59:02 PM UTC-5 Piet Barber wrote: