Front ball joints on Xtreme

[Simon Raglione-Hall]

My Xtreme failed its MOT on both crunchy front wheel bearings.

Stripped the hub assemblies right out, took the bare hubs to a local car place to get the tapered races pressed out and and new ones pressed in so they stayed true.

Packed new bearings with grease, got my uber huge torque wrench on them and put 320Nm torque on the nuts (read that about 50 times all over the web before doing but sierras are like that apparently).

THEN

Decided to replace ball joints while I had it in bits to save time in future. Stripped those out, salvaged Quantum adapter bushes.

Bought x4 MGF (those or later metros are the correct ones?) top ball joints as research seems to suggest that is what they are, checked thread pitch on main OD against old ones by engaging them against each other and fitted them up. Split pinned ball joint threads, blue loctite on adapters into hubs and refitted everything so hubs were done.

Went to fit back into A-Arms and they wont go! The threads go in 2 or 3 turns on all joints then stop. Checked old joints still fit, they are fine.

Assumed thread must be mismatching in some way. Attacked with a vernier and I can't find a "proper" difference between the 2.

The old ones measure 33.85mm OD across the threads, the new ones measure about 33.93mm OD across the threads.On a thread liek this that would seem like a normal tolerance.

The old ones measure 7.7 / 7.8 across 5 thread pitches so approx 1.55mm pitch.And so it seems do the new ones. Again, holding them up to the light engaged with each other looks correct too.

Firstly, any ideas what on earth is going on? My kit was a '99 purchase (SVA 2003)

I would assume if it was a metric / imperial thread mismatch or something there would be a proper difference. I also can't tie this thread down to a specific standard size to know what dimensions are actually correct.

Any help appreciated at this stage

Simon

[James Davis]

The ones that came with my kit (2001) are Unipart GSJ 269 (I still have the box!) - these are listed as MGF / Metro

Sounds like the tolerances might be making it tight - maybe put the ball joint in the freezer to shrink slightly

James.

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[Ian Harrison]

If the balljoints will not screw in properly, then i would say you have the wrong ones. The thread has only to be slightly different and you will wreck them.

[Susan and Martin Scott]

You could possibly use a standard M10 bolt as a 'thread gauge' with 1.5mm pitch on both the male and female thread to see how close they match? Martin

[Nigel Plant]

Hmm an interesting one, note mine erre metro too. First a few checks, which you have likley done.
Offer the two metro joints to each other mating the old joint against the new one, troughs into peaks. A good visual check on the thread pitch. Check the minor diameter too with a sharp edged digital verner.

I also note you have put the joints into the hub and are trying to assemble that into the a link. I struggle that way and tend to screw into the A link first and then assemble to the hub. As the large threads are similar on the metro joint and quantum adaptor (i thought the same) are you reassembling with the same joint orientation? I would also disassemble the joints off the hub and try to screw into the A link unencumbered by the hub.

You seem to be doing everything correctly, but i cant help feeling there is something being missed here. Sorry this is not super helpful, but i would persevere double and triple checking. If the problem still persists, try a different brand of metro joint.
Nigel

[Simon Raglione-Hall]

An unsuccessful update.

Thanks for the input from everyone firstly.

I have checked the obvious suggestions from people (i.e. have i got them the right way up) and all seems to be correct.

Dimensionally all dims on the new balljoints just seem to be "top limit" on what you would measure on an M34 x 1.5 thread.

So I have tried the following:

• Remeasured all thread dims and confirmed they seem to be M34 x 1.5 which does exist as a thread size
• Obtaining a thread restoring Inside / outside file. Cleaned up the nuts that are welded into the A arms down their length so there is no gunk in any thread or burrs. Used it to make sure the ball joint threadforms are OK too.
  
• Obtained a 46mm Open ended spanner to do the job properly.
  
• Purchased a different brand of ball joint from a different stockist (same issue).
  
• Tried an alternative ball joint shown as belonging to certain metros FBJ 5150. Same issue
  
• Tried winding the joints in, backing out, cleaning thread, advancing, removing and checking every few turns as i go to ensure no damage.I got one hub fitted but the tightness is unreal. We are talking both hands pulling full hard on the end of a 15-18" wrench.Chances of slipping and rounding off a nut are too high for my liking when the original joints are little more than finger tight.
  
• Tried applying a gear lubricant (high pressure tolerance against being forced out) to each thread as i go to ease it. No real difference
  
• Tried using a hot air gun to warm the arms, this works a bit BUT I am worried that I will never get the damn things out ever again.
  

Tomorrow the motor factors are getting me an MG -TF ball joint to try as it is the only other Rover product in the whole book that looks the same (even though the joint would come from a car much newer than my quantum).

It feels for all the world like tightening a parallel thread into a taper thread hole.

Frustrated and confused!!

[Jim Hearne]

A very strange problem.

 

If you fit one of the joints until it starts getting really tight and then remove it, can you see from the shiny spots on the thread where it is rubbing ?

On the face of the threads or just on the crest or root of it ?

 

Having cut threads on a lathe you often find that it is still tight to fit in the other part even though it’s strictly speaking in spec.

Holding a bit of emery cloth on the thread while spinning it in the lathe for a few seconds just rounds off the crests of the thread and it fits nicely.

If the nut or the balljoints have very sharp crests to the threads it could be worth rubbing some emery round them just to take the sharp crest off.

It would have no significant affect on the thread strength.

 

Can you measure with some digital calipers if either of the threads are taper ?

 

Jim

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[Simon Raglione-Hall]

Hi Jim,

I should have said, I have polished the OD with some emery to remove the peaks on the threads too (before i got the thread file)

I have put the ball joint threads in a digital caliper, end on and the new joints are definitely parallel thread.

There is ever such a slight taper on the old joints but not significant. I will remeasure and give you the figures.

I currently have a guy who I know with a machine shop looking to borrow an M34 parallel tap on my behalf.

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[Simon Raglione-Hall]

Good news for the weekend: I have a solution.

The guy who has been helping me In Motoserv, the parts place in Kempston, got me the MGTF ball joint in that I requested as my last chance saloon but also (after reading this thread!) took a punt and got a sample of DELPHI branded version of the original type I already have from both first line and FAI.

And guess what? The Delphi fits fine. A little snugger than finger tight but not a patch on the stuff I have currently

I can't get a full set in until the middle of next week but if I get it fixed, who cares?

I am going to take these old ones out on all 4 positions as I just know they will get stuck at some point in the future.

Chuck them in the bin and write it off as a bad job and a lesson learned

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 9:38:50 AM UTC+1, Simon Raglione-Hall wrote:

[Jim Hearne]

Glad to hear it’s fixed.

 

So the others must have been just too high on the tolerance of the thread to fit in the Quantum nuts.

Or could be the Quantum thread was slightly on the small size, maybe they used Delphi parts when they designed it.

 

Might be worth going back to where you got them from and seeing if you can get a refund.

 

Running the M34 tap into the nuts would probably let them take either make of joint without a problem, just go a little at a time so you don’t take out more than you need.

 

Jim

 

 

From: Simon Raglione-Hall

Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 1:54 PM

To: Quantum Owners Group

Subject: [Quantum Owners] Re: Front ball joints on Xtreme

 

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[Simon Raglione-Hall]

Thanks Jim,

The problem with returning the joints is the 3.5mm hole drilled through the small end thread on each one to secure them in to the adapter.

I can return the FAI one hopefully still as it has never been used.

The guy at Motorserv has given me a discount on the new ones so they don't work out to spicey.

If a tap comes out of the woodwork between now and fitting them then I will run them through. My tap set only goes to M24 and the next common size is M36 with M34 being a weird one.

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[Simon Raglione-Hall]

I fitted my Delphi, MGF ball joints and took car for MOT.

At which point the MOT system collapsed.

So I tried again monday and passed. I am still on a hand written document for now but the digital version will catch up next time it is available.

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 9:38:50 AM UTC+1, Simon Raglione-Hall wrote:

[Susan and Martin Scott]

Pleased you got it sorted - I had the same problem with my Rickman MOT a couple of weeks ago, machine was kaput all day and I had to take it back 2 days later!

Martin

----- Original Message -----

From: Simon Raglione-Hall

To: Quantum Owners Group

Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 8:47 AM

Subject: [Quantum Owners] Re: Front ball joints on Xtreme

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[bill]

More than likely the new updated computer system

Sent from my iPhone

[Susan and Martin Scott]

yep - new system, and the unfortunate testers are a bundle of nerves awaiting the next breakdown!