feedback needed for Pro Tools 12

[Slau Halatyn]

In a couple of weeks, I'm going to have a unique opportunity to sit down with a programmer to work on some accessibility issues in Pro Tools. Under the circumstances of my trip, Avid has allowed for this meeting to be scheduled barring any last minute crisis with the release of Pro Tools 12. This will be largely driven by bug submissions already within the beta system but I wanted to get a sense of what the user base is focused on day to day. My goal is to address quality-of-life issues that affect the use of Pro Tools with VoiceOver. For example, the way the inserts and, in particular, sends are displayed is simply awful. This needs to be overhauled. There are a number of such issues that can hopefully be taken care of in one marathon session of tweaks.

I have a clear idea of what I personally think should be addressed but I thought I'd take the temperature of the community. What I'm asking of the list is for people to enumerate 3 to 5 things that most affect their productivity and would like to see improved. Now, I don't mean for people to suggest a different method for importing files to an existing track. That's a bigger fish to fry and the subject of a longer term solution. These are, as I said, quality-of-life issues that can be addressed quickly. Also, don't bring up issues in version 10. We're talking existing issues in version 11. Give me your top 3 or top 5 items and we'll see which seem to reveal themselves as the biggest concerns. The sooner you get those to me, the sooner I can prepare.

Thanks,

Slau

[ashley cox]

Personally, I’d like to see full MIDI accessibility (including events). I’d also like to see an accessible Eleven Rack editor - but this is probably a different thing altogether.

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[Slau Halatyn]

What's not accessible about the MIDI Event List window? Please be specific.

Thanks

[Martin Sopart]

Hi Slau!

A single key Stroke to unarm all armed tracks. No toggle just unarm to be on the save side.
The same for solo.

A track reordering without drag'n'drop.

Do you work with Mavericks or Yosemite?

Best! / Martin

[Slau Halatyn]

Let me be clear, folks. I'm not asking for suggestions for new features. Pro Tools works the way it does and we're not going to change that for VoiceOver users. I'm looking for input on inaccessible items, windows, buttons, tables, lists, etc. Please keep this in mind. Thanks!

Slau

[Juan Pablo Culasso]

Probably you said it in your first e-mail, Slau, if it is, please accept my apologies.

But the clip list is in my opinion a problem. I would like, for example, in a stereo track, passing a clip to the left chanel, for example. I don’t know if you consider this a feature or a thing that can become accessible.
best,
JP.

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
I have worked so little with PT so i can’t say what is or is not possible to fix in this session you’re going to have so before i phrase my question let me ask this: Is the menus where you select presets a protools or a plugin developer issue? If it lies on pro tools then i wish that the preset menu of the plugin became accessible so that i myself could call up and convert favorit presets to PT format in order to better work with them.
/Krister

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Krister,

That appears to be a Pro Tools issue and that is definitely on the list of things to try to fix.

Cheers,

Slau

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Juan,

Can you explain in further detail what it is that you cannot do? I need to understand what you mean so I can either answer how it should behave or what functionality is missing.

Thanks,

Slau

On Mar 16, 2015, at 1:01 PM, Krister Ekstrom <kri...@kristersplace.com> wrote:

[Juan Pablo Culasso]

Sure, Slau.

1.
I import 30 files, and I decide put all of this in the clips list.

2.

I just created a stereo track.

3.

I want to chose one file for the left chanel of this track and one other for the right chanel of this track.

Best, JP.

[Nick Gawronski]

Hi, One thing you might want to look into talking about is the ability
to use the clip list where as a sited person can go into it and move a
clip of audio back on to an existing track but I have not been able to
do this in pro tools 11. Completely recreating or deleting tracks I
don't think is the best option when you or the people you are working
with like things to be in one order and when you do things like make new
tracks that does not fix things. Better support for using elastic audio
such as the ability after it moves audio if you need to do manual moves
I have not been able to do this. One other thing is the ability using
the keyboard to move tracks around and changing the hight and where
voiceover will speak the information as currently nothing happens. What
would it take for you to bring up these issues as a student if there are
major accessibility improovments I would gladly upgrade to version 12?
Nick Gawronski

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Juan,

Ah, OK, thanks for the clarification. Stereo tracks cannot be comprised of two separate left and right audio files of different origin. In other words, they must be of the same length, name and have the .l and .r extensions. So, if you're proposing the dragging of two different file types, this cannot be accomplished by anyone. However, if you're talking about stereo files, that is another issue. Yes, as I mentioned, this is an entirely different proposition and cannot be fixed in a day. There are workarounds that have been posted previously. At some point, I'll post again but I can't devote any time to this issue right now.

Cheers,

Slau

[Poppa Bear]

Slau, I read one message about this and did not see any replies. Is it now possible to select non contiguous tracks? This would be a nice time savor when flying hooks around and making other edits.

[Slau Halatyn]

Papa,

It's a modifier thing. Command-clicking tracks selects non-contiguous tracks. Hope that helps.

Slau

[HF]

Slau,

You have probably covered the really important things for the rest of us.

One thing for me that is important and this could just be a workflow
thing that I haven't quite nailed down is using the comping keyboard
shortcut in playlist view. Right now comping consists of navigating to
playlist button, copying what we want, navigating to playlist button
again, selecting master playlist and pasting in. That's four steps or
five.. In playlist view, it consist of auditioning alternative
takes/lanes, making a selection and promoting with one keystroke to the
master playlist.

HF

[Scott Chesworth]

Hi Slau,

My top 3 biggies would be a boozy heckle of "ain't that the truth, you
tell 'em sister" when you mentioned inserts/sends, improved tracking
between the location of the play head and VO focus in the MIDI event
list, and anything at all that can be done to improve GUI elements of
Avid stock plugins which aren't currently accessible natively. If this
is all too much big picture stuff, shout and I'll be more specific or
substitute for smaller niggles.

Cheers

Scott

[Poppa Bear]

Thanks Slau. I have found myself thinking about convenient keystrokes and have to keep reminding myself of what you have reiterated about separating new features from bug fixes. Thanks for being patient with the flock.

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Herman,

I've had little success with the whole promotion of playlists to a master playlist but I'll try to nail it down and give a definitive procedure. Stay tuned.

Slau

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Scott,

When speaking of stock plug-ins, I'm not sure what you're referring to in terms of them not being accessible. Give me an example.

Thanks,

Slau

[John André Lium-Netland]

Hi Slau,

In a previous thread, we discussed that when using VoiceOver, it was not possible to control the volume of grouped tracks. If possible, I would like this to be fixed.

Also, the procedure of changing input/output/bus names in the I/O window is still not easy to do, even though it works better than before.

Best,
John André

[Nick Gawronski]

Hi, Not sure if this is something you can address but one thing I wish
to do that I can't do with voiceover is if I have more then one
interface connected a sited person told me that you can link them
together so you can use microphone inputs one and two on one interface
and three and four on another interface then you could have the output
go to the mac internal card if it is running with headphones connected
or speakers or to the internal speakers provided the volumes are low.
This is something I would like to do as well as other people I am sure.
Nick Gawronski

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi John,

I do remember that we discussed it at some point. Could you do me a favor and describe the steps to recreate the problem so that I have it fresh in my mind? Thanks!

Slau

[Slau Halatyn]

This is not an issue. Create an aggregate device in the Audio/MIDI Setup and include your interfaces by checking the checkboxes next to their names.

Slau

[John André Lium-Netland]

Hi Slau,

Sure, if you create a group containing a number of tracks, you will be able to mute/solo all the tracks by pressing the solo or mute button for one of the tracks, just as you would expect. but if you change the volume or send level by interacting with a fader, the volume or send level will not change for the other tracks in the group. In our previous discussion, you assumed this was due to the fact that VoiceOver interacted with the fader, instead of actualy moving it, like you do when you use a surface.

Best,
John André

[Slau Halatyn]

OK, thanks for that. I'll recreate it again and see if something can be done.

Slau

[CHUCK REICHEL]

Hi André,

You can control that group with a "VCA VCA track"
That is if you have a pt system with that track option.
Just tell that vca track to use that group you created then you can interact with the vca volume using voiceover and turn it up or down or mute or solo or write automation using that vca, its extremely convenient! :)
I use VCA tracks all the time for that purpose. :)
YMMV
Chuck

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi John,

Chuck forgets that not everybody has an HD system so just keep that in mind.

Slau

[CHUCK REICHEL]

Ahoy Jerry!
I guess you didn't read my whole reply??? ;)
Here is the key line again just incase you missed it which apparently you did! :)

"That is if you have a pt system with that track option"

Is it still chill en up there?
Chuck

[Slau Halatyn]

No, I did read your response and you know exactly who has an HD system so stop offering advice that serves nobody. Also, are you trying to offend me by calling me "Jerry?" Nice.

Slau

[TheOreoMonster]

Anyone took a look at the workspace in version 11? It wasn't
accessible in version 9/10 and is the main reason i switched over to
Reaper since i work with loops alot. Workspace in PT is the only way
to effeciently add loops to a project in PT and have them
automatically snap to the project tempo. Sure there are clicking and
dragging workarounds or enabling elastic audio after a normal import
but this becomes tedius in a big session or when working with lots of
loops. That and there are other useful areas in the workspace view as
well. Probably the largest part of the program still inaccessible to
us if it is still so in V11.

[Scott Chesworth]

Hi Slau,

My bad, I should've written bundled instead of stock. I'm thinking of
the Air stuff in particular anything synthy where we've still got to
go through and recreate presets in the format PT likes. Thinking about
it though, are those plugs even developed in-house? I suspect not.

Scott

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Steve,

I don't have any version of 9 or 10 handy but I seem to remember one couldn't see anything in the Workspace browser. In Pro Tools 11, there are visible items within the window although I don't feel that they are particularly well handled. That said, I'm not personally up on the whole workspace workflow.

Slau

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Scott,

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. All factory presets are available in the AIR stuff. I tried a few of them. Which one, for example, doesn't come up with factory presets for you? Of course, with Structure, there have been presets made. The whole preset browsing thing is kind of a big issue although maybe we'll have a bit of progress on that front.

Slau

[Vincenzo Rubano]

Hi Slau,

my two cents would be to make sure that protools|First, the free version of protools Avid is going to release anytime soon, gets the same accessibility level of the standard Protools 12.

Vincenzo.

> Il giorno 16/mar/2015, alle ore 15:41, Slau Halatyn <slauh...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
> In a couple of weeks, I'm going to have a unique opportunity to sit down with a programmer to work on some accessibility issues in Pro Tools. Under the circumstances of my trip, Avid has allowed for this meeting to be scheduled barring any last minute crisis with the release of Pro Tools 12. This will be largely driven by bug submissions already within the beta system but I wanted to get a sense of what the user base is focused on day to day. My goal is to address quality-of-life issues that affect the use of Pro Tools with VoiceOver. For example, the way the inserts and, in particular, sends are displayed is simply awful. This needs to be overhauled. There are a number of such issues that can hopefully be taken care of in one marathon session of tweaks.
>
> I have a clear idea of what I personally think should be addressed but I thought I'd take the temperature of the community. What I'm asking of the list is for people to enumerate 3 to 5 things that most affect their productivity and would like to see improved. Now, I don't mean for people to suggest a different method for importing files to an existing track. That's a bigger fish to fry and the subject of a longer term solution. These are, as I said, quality-of-life issues that can be addressed quickly. Also, don't bring up issues in version 10. We're talking existing issues in version 11. Give me your top 3 or top 5 items and we'll see which seem to reveal themselves as the biggest concerns. The sooner you get those to me, the sooner I can prepare.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Slau
>
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[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Vincenzo,

Pro Tools First is based on Pro Tools 11 so the accessibility will be largely the same. That said, the focus for this session will be on Pro Tools 12.

Cheers,

Slau

[HF]

Hey Slau, any discussions about elastic audio? If I'm not mistaken you
can tab to warp markers. Just haven't figured out how to manipulate them.

HF

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Herman,

I don't think anything's going to change with Elastic Audio for the time-being. I believe it's on the bug report sheet but I'll have to double check. It's definitely something I'd like to see be fully usable at some point.

Slau

[Chi Kim]

Hi Slau,

The new click plugin included in pt 11 is not accessible.
Also, getting access to warp markers would be good.
I believe clip indicator is not accessible with Voiceover anymore. When
the meter clips, Voiceover used to say clipped until you clear it, but
it doesn't say it anymore.
Lastly, I know you specifically said no new future request, but it'd be
worth while to briefly mention about creating a flexible database system
that manages all the presets for all the plugin with tagging system
something like Native Instrument Komplete. Komplete consists of many
plugins with many presets (total 17,000), but you can browse all of them
in one browser and load them easily. This would save a lot of time for
any composers/producers to find right sound without going through many
different plugins with many different presets.
The current preset system for Pro Tools is so old style and not that
flexible, so many developers don't even bother and create their own instead.
I'm sure this would require a lot of thought process to make it useful
for users, and easier for plugin developers to implement. However, if
Avid pulls it off well and markets it as a cool new feature, it would
benefit everyone regardless sighted or blind once the developers start
taking advantage of it.
Thanks for working with Avid on this important work.

Chi

On 3/16/2015 10:41 AM, Slau Halatyn wrote:

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Chi,

Yep, the Click plug-in's parameters don't work well right now. That's certainly on the list of things to tackle. Incidentally, the parameters are accessible with a control surface. So, for example, to access triplets and accent values, etc., the encoder knobs or faders in flip mode will control those parameters and it's possible to save those settings as presets for future use.

The clip indicators are working fine. Make sure you have your preferences set to hold clip indicators and you should be good to go.

The subject of preset browsing in the plug-in window is clearly a much larger issue and, regardless of its accessibility, I'm not sure that it's going to necessarily change any time soon. Surely, it's much more of an issue for virtual instruments and one size doesn't fit all so I wouldn't expect Avid to come up with any solution that'll be right for every developer. Plug-in accessibility, in general, is an important issue and its model might have to change entirely for it to be viable for the long term. We'll all keep trying until we get it right.

Slau

[John Gunn]

Hello Slau,

Great you are meeting with a programmer and here are a couple of things I have.

First when selecting a click sound other then the default click, I am unable to choose for example cowbell, stick ETC. This of course is setting up a click track.

Secondly and this might be user error on my part but is there a way finding the status of a track if it is set to input monitor? Tryied to bounce a session last week and message unable to bounce because of input monitor.

Feel free to let me know if I am way off base on any of my feedback.

John

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi John,

Yep, you might have missed the previous reply. Click is definitely an issue that needs to be resolved. For now, all of the parameters are accessible via a control surface. For those who don't have a surface, I'll see if I can come up with a number of presets to help in the mean time. I'm leaving town this week and will be gone for 2 weeks so it'll be a while.

The status of the Input monitor button is identified by its name. VoiceOver indicates when it's engaged but not when it's not engaged. In other words, much like a mute button that is off, you'll only hear the name of the button as opposed to hearing that it's in its "on" state.

Hope that helps.

best,

Slau

[Gordon Kent]

Is there any hope for structure? That is an
Avid virtual instrument, isn't it? Also, it would be nice to be able to
adjust some parameter sliders in larger increments, or to type in values
directly.
Keep up the good work Slau!
Gord

-----Original Message-----
From: Slau Halatyn
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 6:58 PM
To: ptac...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: feedback needed for Pro Tools 12

[studiojay]

Hi Slau, Thanks again for every thing you are doing. My input. I agree with Gord, it would be cool to change plugin values in larger increments. Also, it would be nice to be able to read gain reduction meters in compressor plugins both stock and 3rd party. Also, there are 2 popup menus in the select-split notes dialog that do not work with voiceover. This dialog is accessed with option y. Regards, Jason

[David Eagle]

Yes, being able to adjust slider values in larger increments would be massively helpful. And gain reduction feedback in compressors too. I'm a bit unsure what happens when you increase the volume on a track. If you have a compressor insert on that track, does the volume adjustment affect the level before or after the compressor? In sonar there was a trim and a volume option. 
Thanks aplenty Slau.

Sent from my iPhone

[Kevin Reeves]

The faders are Post compressor.
This means that when you turn up the level, you are increasing what happens after compression is applied.
In the compressor plug, there's an input fader as well, so you can feed more into the comp if you want.

Hope this helps.

Kevin

[Brian Howerton]

How agre folks getting around not being able to read gain reduction meters in pt?

Sent from my iPhone

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi guys,

The issue of changing plug-in values in greater increments is one of those situations where a paradigm shift would need to take place for it to be different. That, of course, might happen at some point but not right now—not yet, at least. For the time being, a control surface is your friend and you can change parameter values at whichever rate you choose. Be assured, however, that plug-in issues will be looked at for the long run.

The reduction meters are also on the list. Mind you, of course, I will have one day to address all concerns and we simply won't get to everything. Whatever we gain is better than nothing and I'm hopeful that a number issues can be addressed.

Cheers,

Slau

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Brian,

You probably won't like my answer very much but, frankly, I've never read a gain reduction meter in Pro Tools as long as I've used it and that would be since 2002. To be honest, before that, even when I could actually make out a VU meter, I always relied on my ears. That said, naturally, I think it's something that should be accessible. In other words, for most people, it's not a deal-breaker but it's an issue that needs attention. For now, exaggerate your compression, back it off and trust your ears.

Best,

Slau

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Brian,

 

Please call me at some point today.  Haven't heard from you in a while, and would absolutely love! to catch up.

 

This number is public knowledge, as it's my work desk phone, so I have no problem at all giving you this number on list.

 

704-594-2225X701

 

---
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http://www.clgproductions.net

[Chris Smart]

agreed. learn to notice when a compressor is active and when it isn't.

[Brian Howerton]

Hi Slau,
No, that is a great answer, and something that I needed to hear. After all, it really is about using your ears.
Brian

[Jason Dasent]

Using your ears is fine, However, with compressors that feature
automatic make up gain, it could be quite tricky to hear what the
compressor is actually doing, because the gain is being made up in
real time as you adjust the controls. For this reason, it would be
great to have the gain reduction meters read by voiceover. Also, I
agree with the person who said that it would be good to be able to
type in values for parameters in plugins.
Jason

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[Chris Smart]

it does take awhile to develop, especially if you're just talking a
dB or two of gain reduction, and the compressor being used is very
transparent. you might drive yourself nuts saying "ok, is it on? is
it off? hmm i think it's on..." all part of the fun!

[Chris Smart]

Oh I agree regarding auto makeup gain. You want to train yourself
using a compressor that allows you to turn auto makeup off, or
doesn't have it at all. i.e. i fthere's a manual makeup gain control,
leave it off while you're playing with things.

[Gordon Kent]

``````Actually, if you happen to have a braille display with whiz weels like
the focus 40 blue, you can make value changes a lot quicker.

[Scott Chesworth]

Hi Brian,

I see your question has already been answered, but it raises another
one. The way its phrased suggests that you can read gain reduction
with your current setup. I'm curious about what you're using, just
because in both of my regular DAWs it isn't doable. Feel free to drop
me a line off list so we don't stray off topic.

Cheers

Scott

On 3/23/15, Brian Howerton <bshow...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Brian Howerton]

Hi Scott,
I used to use the Cakewalk Sonar package from Dancing dots with the CakeTalking scripts for Jaws. You could read the gain reduction meters in that compressor that came with Sonar. Thanks,
Brian

[David Eagle]

Oo, exciting news about the braille display wheels. I have a focus 40.

Sent from my iPhone

[Chris Smart]

really? I've never noticed that. Can you remember what keystroke you used?
I'm asuming you're talking about the Sonitus compressor.

[Brian Howerton]

Yes, in the sonnets compressor, if you pressed f2, it would read you the input, output, and gain reduction meters.
Brian

[Chris Smart]

oh cool. I had no idea! Thanks for that.

Of course, you can always find the loudest section of the song, loop
part of it, and read the track or bus meter peaks with compression
engaged then bypassed.

[Brian Howerton]

Yeah, that is what I was thinking to would be a good work-around as well.

[Scott Chesworth]

Sure, this is what I do at the moment because it works across DAWs.
Takes double the amount of time though for each pass, so thought it
was worth asking.

Scott

[Chris Smart]

oh for sure. and faster is almost always better.

[Chi Kim]

Hi Slau,

Just for update, Clip indicators was already set to hold for infinite, and VO still doesn't announces when the meter is clipped.
Anything else I should check?
Thanks for your help,

Chi

On 3/22/2015 3:17 PM, Slau Halatyn wrote:
> Hi Chi,
>
> Yep, the Click plug-in's parameters don't work well right now. That's certainly on the list of things to tackle. Incidentally, the parameters are accessible with a control surface. So, for example, to access triplets and accent values, etc., the encoder knobs or faders in flip mode will control those parameters and it's possible to save those settings as presets for future use.
>
> The clip indicators are working fine. Make sure you have your preferences set to hold clip indicators and you should be good to go.
>
> The subject of preset browsing in the plug-in window is clearly a much larger issue and, regardless of its accessibility, I'm not sure that it's going to necessarily change any time soon. Surely, it's much more of an issue for virtual instruments and one size doesn't fit all so I wouldn't expect Avid to come up with any solution that'll be right for every developer. Plug-in accessibility, in general, is an important issue and its model might have to change entirely for it to be viable for the long term. We'll all keep trying until we get it right.
>
> Slau
>
> On Mar 22, 2015, at 3:09 PM, Chi Kim <chigo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Slau,
>>
>> The new click plugin included in pt 11 is not accessible.
>> Also, getting access to warp markers would be good.
>> I believe clip indicator is not accessible with Voiceover anymore. When the meter clips, Voiceover used to say clipped until you clear it, but it doesn't say it anymore.
>> Lastly, I know you specifically said no new future request, but it'd be worth while to briefly mention about creating a flexible database system that manages all the presets for all the plugin with tagging system something like Native Instrument Komplete. Komplete consists of many plugins with many presets (total 17,000), but you can browse all of them in one browser and load them easily. This would save a lot of time for any composers/producers to find right sound without going through many different plugins with many different presets.
>> The current preset system for Pro Tools is so old style and not that flexible, so many developers don't even bother and create their own instead.
>> I'm sure this would require a lot of thought process to make it useful for users, and easier for plugin developers to implement. However, if Avid pulls it off well and markets it as a cool new feature, it would benefit everyone regardless sighted or blind once the developers start taking advantage of it.
>> Thanks for working with Avid on this important work.
>>
>> Chi

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Chi,

I've just verified that in version 11.3 the clip indicator definitely works. I'm not sure what might be causing your problem with the indicator. One thing I would check is that you have the correct radio button checked in the Metering tab of the Preferences window. The way it reads is not entirely clear at first. There are two columns, one for Peak and one for Clipping. If you read across, you might mistake the first column as immediately following the Clip text. I'm not sure if this happened to you or not but, just to be sure, I would check it again. Navigate to the right until you reach the first radio button that reads "3 seconds" and then continue to the second radio button that reads "3 seconds." This is the column that pertains to Clipping. Navigate down and you'll find the "Infinite" radio button and make sure it's check.

Hope that helps,

Slau

[Chi Kim]

HI Slau, thanks for the help.
Yes I'm aware of the fact that the Voiceover reads the radio buttons in
such ways for that particular settings.
Peak on the left and and Clip indicator on the right
Then the related radio buttons below the labels.
I went to clip indicator label first then went down to make sure
infinite is selected. It's very mysterious why it's not working.
Can you think of any other setting that might be preventing this?
Thanks,

Chi

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Chi,

I can't think of anything else at this point. I'm not sure why it's not working for you right now. I'll be travelling overseas tomorrow so I suppose I'll have plenty of time to ponder this one :)

Best,

Slau

[Chi Kim]

Thanks Slau, I'll keep looking around and update what I find as well.
Have a safe trip!

Chi