Is it possible to do theory and/or speedbuilding with just plover (for a hopeful professional?)

[Andy Sumrall]

Hi all. I am very determined to make a career for myself with steno. I was originally set on court reporting but certainly intrigued by other career options in the steno field as well now. I've tried to do as much research here as I can, and sorry if it seems like this has been answered elsewhere but I still feel the need to ask this. I had settled on going the cheapest route, which before finding my way to plover, was using the StarTran theory and then going into SimplySteno for speedbuilding. While these programs wouldn't break the bank, I'd obviously be incredibly grateful for a free option. I guess I have 3 main questions:

1. Is it really possible or advisable to work all the way up to being certified and entering the field just using the Plover lessons/other free materials?

2. Does anyone here have experience in doing so?

3. While money is obviously extremely valuable, time is as well. Am I losing anything in efficiency by forgoing a more structured course?

Thanks for any advice!

[Ted Morin]

1. Is it really possible or advisable to work all the way up to being certified and entering the field just using the Plover lessons/other free materials?

Yes.

2. Does anyone here have experience in doing so?

Stanley Sakai started off with the free stuff and then moved onto theory books (Philly Clinic and Magnum Steno), but at the time Plover was nowhere near where it is now. Nat, Matthew, and Momotobo are other community members who aren't yet at realtime speeds, but currently work in offline transcription and are making progress all the time. I imagine there are other self-taught individuals who I don't hear about as much, as occasionally people pop in and raise a hand with incredible speeds. We don't have a registry!

3. While money is obviously extremely valuable, time is as well. Am I losing anything in efficiency by forgoing a more structured course?

This is personal. Some people teach themselves extremely well, others work best off of a strict structure. Stan (a polyglot with a background in linguistics) spent a year of doing almost nothing but improving himself in steno and now he works what I'm sure some would consider a dream schedule captioning dream jobs for a dream wage :P

I loosely (read: low discipline) trained myself to write fast on the steno machine, I never do dictation (though many do) and I write at a good speed (~150WPM) after two years. My endgame isn't a CR or CART job, though.

One big thing: there's no wasting time at the beginning. I say, teach yourself as much as you want, and if you feel you hit a significant plateau or roadblock, then ask the community for help, then finally consider some online course or paid material. You will never unlearn skills and dexterity that you acquire just because you change machines or theories. Learning Plover and discovering you don't like Mirabai's writing style is okay, it's never too late to go back and purchase a theory book in a different style -- they will work with Plover too. It's also extremely easy to adapt the Plover dictionary into something more Magnum-style, though for Phoenix I think you'd probably want to start over. Some build a dictionary from scratch. I'm not familiar enough with Mariene's StarTran to give feedback about it, just judging by the brief descriptions (hah) I found online it doesn't sound too different or spectacular, a brief/short theory like any other.

Depending on where you live you may need certain credentials to become certified when you finish your speeds. Most states and countries just have a speed test (if even), but some states, like Florida, require you to attend a registered school to get your certification. That being said, if you were already at speed when going into school I imagine you'd graduate in a short while.

I would not spend money on SimplySteno or other sites to start. They are businesses and they have some incentive to see you succeed, obviously, but the longer you stay the more money they make. We are an open source community and there's no money to be made selling Plover. You'd be surprised by the friendliness and care you find around here. Definitely get involved and hang around the Discord chat server. So many people have been at the start of the path and the same problems always come up and get solved.

Apologies if I sound cynical or grouchy about paid steno stuff, it gets tiresome when I get PMs of people trying to sell me stuff on Facebook regularly enough to seem like a pattern.

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[Ted Morin]

I made a mistake: it's California that requires certification. Other coast! (Canadian apologies for any confusion)

[Charles Shattuck]

Being in California I was curious about that. I haven't found evidence yet that one has to go to a steno school before taking one of these exams. In fact, on the California Court Reporters Association (CCRA) website, it says "In California there is no certification required to be a CART Captioner."

So maybe it's not so bad here? If someone know's better, let us know.

[sst...@live.com]

I heard that California has certification available for CART providers. However, at this time, certification is not required.  

With that being said, I do see a time in the near future wherein CART certification will be required.  

Of course, CART companies will prefer the certification as well as their clients (i.e. Universities, etc.).

-Selena

Sent from my iPhone

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[Ted Morin]

Thanks guys. I was told it was required by a friend and should have looked it up before relaying.

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[Gabriel Holmes]

  I start with specific jobs that I want and work my way backwards to determine how I can meet the minimum requirements as quickly and inexpensively as I can.

[Ted Morin]

You can look up the stroke, e.g. "STK" in your dictionary file with a text editor or with the built-in dictionary editor.

Logic will help you here, though. If you think of the brief "KRED" for "credential", but if you write "EUPB/KRED/PW-L" (meaning IN/KRED/B-L), you want "incredible", not "incredentialible". Just sound it out.

Honestly, though, I wouldn't bother with learning the brief book or making your own briefs until you are comfortable with the theory. Just learn the Plover default dictionary, it is perfectly suited and capable to write with. You don't need to make a whole dictionary to learn steno.

On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 9:24:45 AM UTC-4, dvora...@gmail.com wrote:

I am a newbie. I am reading the book Learn Plover.  You have to make sure that a brief you create is not a word part.  Is there any way of looking up the brief to make sure that it isn't?

And I would prefer to invent my own dictionary with my own briefs in order to avoid any possibility of word boundary errors.   How do I do this?

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[Glen Warner]

Hi (again!) Dvora.

This one is more for people that have the same question, seeing as how you managed to find yourself an empty dictionary already.

I have an article up on Cheap and Sleazy about Plover, and in that article is a link to an empty dictionary, which you can download, rename, and use however you see fit. You can find that article here:

http://www.cheapandsleazy.net/crimson_ploverman.html

I have another article up on Cheap and Sleazy all about dictionary management -- but it's really aimed at court reporting students, though it certainly can't hurt if you were to read it ... and you can find that one here:

http://www.cheapandsleazy.net/dictionaries.html

It basically talks about how I handle my dictionaries, which basically consists of three principles:

1. Don't add anything to the theory dictionary.

2. Use another dictionary for stuff you want to keep.

3. Add any theory updates to the theory dictionary.

That's it ...! Hope that sheds a little light on the subject for the curious.

--gdw

On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 6:24:45 AM UTC-7, dvora...@gmail.com wrote:

I am a newbie. I am reading the book Learn Plover.  You have to make sure that a brief you create is not a word part.  Is there any way of looking up the brief to make sure that it isn't?

And I would prefer to invent my own dictionary with my own briefs in order to avoid any possibility of word boundary errors.   How do I do this?

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 3:45:38 PM UTC-7, Ted Morin wrote:

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[Ted Morin]

J, in regards to another email you sent: editing the JSON files directly is easier than editing the RTFs.

[Ted Morin]

Yes, you can also write into the lookup window, which you can summon with a stroke like:

{PLOVER:LOOKUP}

Searching "in" should return how to write "in", as well as any prefix, suffix, or infix.

On Oct 23, 2016 9:26 AM, <dvora...@gmail.com> wrote:

I discovered that if you know the prefixes and suffixes, you could easily type multi stroke words.

Chapter 6 in Plover's book does give a way to tell Plover not to insert a space.

though we are cautioned that it may be the wrong way to type;  rather we should learn prefixes and suffixes first.     It's the TK on the left side of the keyboard and LS on the right side, pressed after the initial  first stroke. 

I have one more question.  I looked up the suffix: Ment. In Plover; configure,  dictionary editor and then Lookup and type the letters ment and it shows the keystrokes.  This is the way to lookup  the rest of the suffixes and prefixes not listed in the Plover book?

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[Ted Morin]

Memorization in steno is a little interesting, it's mostly muscle memory, not the recollection of some brief representation (usually). It's also very easy to compose (and recompose) briefs based on personal rules that you figure out as you learn. For example, I might come up with an intuitive brief (to me) then a year later try that stroke because it's intuitive, and be surprised that it works. This comes up a lot → even if I don't "memorize" a stroke it sticks in my memory because I always define them how my own brain works. That's part of the reason why it's hard to learn someone else's briefs…

For any outside brief, yes, you'd look it up and see if it conflicts with existing entries. Depending on what it conflicts with, you might choose to overwrite it. I'd also look up and see if there's an existing brief in the dictionary already, maybe it's good enough.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 1:31 PM, <dvora...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am using the Zalman keyboard and at after long hours of weekend and evening practice, I could type all the Plover drills easily which is why I had to download the Steno tutor/look for more practice.

I downloaded the Steno tutor and am at 31 words a minute with level 1.

So the final question is more for the future; but I'm setting everything in place now so that I can use it later on.

Since in QWERTY I needed to remember 4300+ abbreviations of words that were repeated the most the same must hold true for Stenography. All I know is that I have the working memory to recall an abbreviation to mind when the professors speak. 

 

I can use any outside brief as long as I  use the dictionary editor to filter by stroke, make sure the stroke doesn't exist anyplace and if it does; just modify my brief with an *?

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[Andy Sumrall]

Thanks for the help. Ted! Glad I found this place.

[dvora...@gmail.com]

Regarding the ergodox: is the Gatrion white the best one?  There is no gatrion clear.

[Ted Morin]

Gateron White and Clear are two names for the same thing. Yes they are good.

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[dvora...@gmail.com]

I can type reasonably quiet with the Ergodox?   After all I transcribe live lectures in class and sometimes the class is quiet but with reduced strokes/more proficiency the ergodox should be reasonably quiet.

[Ted Morin]

Ergodox is as loud as most keyboards. Won't be too bad. Of course a real steno machine would be quieter.

No, I don't think you'd be able to copy paste the Plover dictionary into Word. Maybe try Qwertysteno or Plover Dojo for that sort of thing? No one really memorizes the dictionary entry by entry.

If you have further questions, would you mind starting a new thread as we are off topic on this one now?

On Oct 29, 2016 2:21 PM, <dvora...@gmail.com> wrote:

And could some of Plover's dictionary be copied and pasted to a MS Word document so that it would be easier to start practicing the multi  stroke words?

[Carol Berk]

I am a retired court reporter.  I had a very good friend who taught himself stenotype through a correspondence course many years before the internet.  He was the national speed champion.  Is it possible?  Anything is possible.  It takes determination.  There's an old joke:  "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?  Practice, practice, practice."  The national association has recently included plover as an approved software for testing.  That should tell you something.  The sky is the limit.  It's up to you.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Andy Sumrall <atsu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all. I am very determined to make a career for myself with steno. I was originally set on court reporting but certainly intrigued by other career options in the steno field as well now. I've tried to do as much research here as I can, and sorry if it seems like this has been answered elsewhere but I still feel the need to ask this. I had settled on going the cheapest route, which before finding my way to plover, was using the StarTran theory and then going into SimplySteno for speedbuilding. While these programs wouldn't break the bank, I'd obviously be incredibly grateful for a free option. I guess I have 3 main questions:

1. Is it really possible or advisable to work all the way up to being certified and entering the field just using the Plover lessons/other free materials?

2. Does anyone here have experience in doing so?

3. While money is obviously extremely valuable, time is as well. Am I losing anything in efficiency by forgoing a more structured course?

Thanks for any advice!

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[Gabriel Holmes]

 I'm taking a "project management" approach to learning steno, taking cost, time, and quality into account. It's working so far. I've broken it down into a few phases:

1. Get to the point where I can steno as fast as I type.
2. Start using steno at work.
3. Start preparing for the  NCRA exam

I'm about to start on phase two.

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[Achim Siebert]

Similar to what I do. I think I mastered stage 1 and started with stage 2 (sometimes). Stage 3 will never happen for me, though. I'd maybe replace it wtih "make and use a dictionary for German".

[Jeremy W. Sherman]

What is your normal typing speed? I think I'd have given up of I put "match normal speed" as a blocker to using steno at work. I type around 120 WPM using the Colemak keyboard layout.

My step 1 was "get familiar enough I can kinda limp along in practice" and then I went to step 2 "suck up the speed hit and steno at least part of the time, mostly for chat without a lot of formatting".

I do software development, and I still can't bring myself to do much steno for coding. Too many weird symbols, manual whitespace and capitalization management, and weird words. And lacking ready equivalents for the many editing shortcuts I use in practice makes editing and touching up existing code hard. Dictionary hacking might get over some of this, but it's a big barrier vs stenoing regular discursive English text for me.

A major spur for continuing with steno is the looming pain of repetitive stress injury caused by normal typing.

If anyone has tips for getting over these issues, I'm all ears. :)
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[Charley Shattuck]

Hi Jeremy,

I program mostly in Forth, which is more words than symbols. But I had to some up with a way to remember how to stroke symbols anyway. I started with PREPB (pren) and PRE*PB for (). Easy enough for me to remember. I could never remember [] and {} though. I decided to use a pattern. I made square brackets PWREPB (bren) and PWR*EPB, and "French brackets", {}, TPREPB (fren) and TPR*EPB. Later I decided to add PRAEPB and PRA*EPB for < > which I think of as angle brackets.

I also use SKP* as & (a special form of "and").

I like this system because it's easier for me to remember the spatial pattern than a mnemonic sometimes.

That's my two cents on symbols.

Charley.

[DeAnne Ridge]

This is great! Plover is an approved software for testing for NCRA? Woo-hoo! That does lead me to think this theory is perfect and I can get as far as I can here without spending money. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

[Jeremy W. Sherman]

Thanks! I think I borrowed your "French brackets" mnemonic a while back. SKP* sounds very easy to remember as well; I'll add that next chance I get.

Part of what kills me is the space/glue management around symbols. It's not enough to remember a stroke for <; I have to deal with variants with and without spaces, and those are partly hard to remember as not compact to vocalize. "less than with space before" is a mouthful.

The editor shortcut bit is probably the bigger issue for me long-term. Is there an easy way to just say "kick the ctrl key on till a non-modifier key gets hit"? That would let me easily access my normal shortcuts by leaning on fingerspelling for things like C-a to go to the start of a line. (If not already, then I guess that should be doable with plugins coming down the pipe?)

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Jeremy W. Sherman

http://jeremywsherman.com/

[Charley Shattuck]

Yeah, I'm still not happy with symbols and spaces. For me, doing Forth, I need a space after the left paren, which is weird for any other language. Someday I'll work out something that's at least regular and predictable, but haven't done that yet.

I don't see any way too leave the counsel control key down like you're saying. Sorry.

[Joshua Grams]

On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 4:24:39 PM UTC-5, Jeremy W. Sherman wrote:

The editor shortcut bit is probably the bigger issue for me long-term. Is there an easy way to just say "kick the ctrl key on till a non-modifier key gets hit"? That would let me easily access my normal shortcuts by leaning on fingerspelling for things like C-a to go to the start of a line. (If not already, then I guess that should be doable with plugins coming down the pipe?)

Yeah, I seem to recall some talk about it, so I'm pretty sure "holding down" modifiers (or other keys) is something that Plover doesn't do yet. Hopefully they're allowing for that with plugins. Definitely something that I can't live without (not that I'm to the point yet where I could give up my keyboard anyway, but that's a deal-breaker).

In the meantime, you could go on stenodict and grab Achim's Left Hand Modifier Keys. That gives you any combination of Cmd-/Ctrl-/Alt-/Shift- and a single letter. Which...covers a fair number of use cases. And on Windows you get sticky task switching with Ctrl-Alt-Tab (Mirabai has this mapped to TABT in her Vim captioning dictionary, which is also on stenodict).

--Josh

[Jeremy W. Sherman]

Thanks for the reminder of Achim's dictionary! When I last looked at it, it was way before I had any need of it, and I'd forgotten it completely. It just might be the thing I need here, and it's got a very clean design. I'll need to add in option and left/right arrow, but that's no big deal.

Thanks again!

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[Achim Siebert]

There's already pull requests for arrow keys and F-Keys on stenodict (https://github.com/openstenoproject/stenodict/pulls) that use the same approach.