Sir Albemarle Bertie, Bt.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

I thought it best to start a new topic instead of continuing this as part of the Bowes-Lyon topic.

Sir Albemarle Bertie, cr Baronet 1812, is often said to have been a natural son of the 3rd Duke of Ancaster. One source which says that is:

https://morethannelson.com/officer/albemarle-bertie/

On the other hand, Wikipedia says he was son of the 3rd Duke's brother Albemarle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Albemarle_Bertie,_1st_Baronet

Does anyone have authoritative evidence about which is correct?


2.

Some sources say that his only son, Lyndsey James Bertie (b.29 October 1795), was killed at Waterloo, in his father's lifetime. Other sources say that he succeeded his father, though I have not seen any specific later death dates. He is shown as living in the 1819 Debrett's Baronetage. Does anyone know for sure when he died?


3.

Joseph Cator (1733-1818) was married to Diana Bertie, who Burke's says was sister of Sir Albemarle Bertie, Bt.

Was Diana also a natural daughter of the duke (or of Lord Albemarle Bertie, if he in fact was Sir Albemarle's father)? I have not found her mentioned in Bertie sources.

[Henry W]

Its worth checking the Wikipedia citations here - they both state that Sir Albemarle was a natural son of the 3rd Duke.

http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/ancaster1715.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20150117181446/http://www.europeanheraldry.org/united-kingdom/families/families-f/house-bertie/

Cracroft's peerage also states: the 3rd duke also had 2 illegitimate children: Admiral Sir Albemarle Bertie, 1st Bt KCB and Diana Bertie [...]

[dpth...@gmail.com]

As to the question about his son: while the 1819 Debrett's lists him as living, the 1835 Debrett's says that the Baronetcy became extinct in 1824, which is when the first baronet died. I have not found online any Debrett's betweem 1819 and 1835, so I cannot check them. I did check the index of Gentleman's Magazine, and these Berties are not mentioned during this period. I wonder whether there is somewhere a list of all who died at Waterloo?

[https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/]

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Thanks. I did see the article in Burke's Extinct Baronetage, a copy of which I own, but I tend not to rely on that work since many of the genealogies in it are wrong.

In this particular article it is said that the 1st Baronet died without surviving issue, which may be true, though in 1819 he had a married and an unmarried daughter. At any rate Burke's practice in other articles in the same book was to list even deceased children, which they did not do in this case, which leads me to think that they had little information about the family.

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 7:06:39 PM UTC-6 https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/ wrote:

[https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/]

Thanks for that. 

[dpth...@gmail.com]

I don't offer this as proof of anything, but some might be interested to see the entry from the 1819 Debrett's.

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-6 dpth...@gmail.com wrote:

[Jesse Honey]

For anyone who may have missed it but is interested, a recent episode
of Who Do You Think You Are on BBC revealed that composer Andrew LLOYD
WEBBER, Baron Lloyd-Webber is descended from the BERTIE Dukes of
Ancaster and Kesteven on his mother's side.

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[https:/www.maltagenealogy.com/LeighRayment/]

Thank you. That will be interesting.

[S. S.]

According to Sir Samuel Egerton Brydges’ Peerage of England (1812), ii, 24, Lord Albemarle Bertie, the immediate brother of the 3rd Duke of Ancaster and Kesteven, died unmarried 16 May 1765.

Sir Albemarle Bertie, 1st Bt was born 20 Jan 1755 and died 24 Feb 1824, while his sis Diana’s date of birth is unknown. She probably was not long born before or after Albemarle. It is annoying that there is no ready source that identifies the mother of either. I looked through History of Parliament Online and other places.

The other problem is that the Dukedom of Ancaster and Kesteven and the Earldom of Ancaster and other titles became EXTINCT in 1804 upon the death of the 4th Duke of Ancaster and Kesteven, except the Earldom of Lindsey, which devolved upon his 3rd cousin. 

Due to this, Debrett’s Peerage for 1809, 1814, 1816, 1820, 1822 or 1825 do not list the title. Even if they did, I do not think they would show the illegitimate connection (most works of this period avoid doing this unless the personage is specially “exalted” enough).

Debertt’s Baronetage 1824, ii, 1132 actually lists Sir Albemarle being succeeded by his son, Lyndsey James Bertie and shows his date of birth as 29 Oct 1795. It also lists him as Lt in the 12th (Princess of Wales’s) Regiment of Light Dragoons. However the entry for the baronetcy is not present in the 1835 edition.

This mystery is solved by looking through (what aptly Paul is looing for) The Waterloo Roll Call (1904, 2nd edn) by Charles Dalton. It thoroughly lists those KIA at Waterloo along with biographical details and other information. Here is a link to it: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51143/51143-h/51143-h.htm#Page_75

On p 75, it states “Lindsay James Bertie, K.”. The abbreviation “K.” means KIA. I do not know if there are other Debrett’s editions between 1824 and 1835, otherwise we would know for sure if the error was caught (later on) or they realized later and quietly retracted/amended the article.

An interested note in the Waterloo Roll Call, p 93 is that it lists Maj Philip Zachariah Cox 23rd LD has having married 17 Feb 1817, Louise, “youngest dau. of Adm. Sir Albemarle Bertie, Bart.” and died 24 January 1811.

[S.S.]

[Paul Theroff]

S R Eglesfield pointed out in the Bowes-Lyon topic

https://groups.google.com/g/peerage-news/c/rjvB7mpoKHY

that a Wikitree page provides details of the will of Lord Albemarle Bertie in which he names six natural children, including a son Albemarle and a daughter Diana.

I have now placed these children as Lord Albemarle's on my page about this family at:

https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/ancaster.html

along with a note saying that he is sometimes said to have been son of the 3rd Duke.

This family has a number of illegitimate births. The 4th Duke had a natural daughter; Lord Albemarle had his six, and Hon. Peregrine Bertie (d.1711) is known to have had at least two.

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D. P. Theroff

[Paul Theroff]

Thanks, SS, for that excellent research. I can add only that the 1835 Debrett's does mention the Bertie Baronetcy, but only in its list of extinct titles.

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D. P. Theroff

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Philip Zachariah Cox, who fought at Waterloo, died 21 May 1858, aged 79.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/24399

He is called "of Harwood Hall in this Parish", which is St.Laurence's Church, St. Marys Lane, Upminster, Havering, Greater London.

A book called "History of the War in France and Belgium" says that Philip Zachariah Cox died 24 January 1818. Both this book and the 1858 memorial say that he was in the 23rd Light Dragoons, so it must be the same man.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/History_of_the_War_in_France_and_Belgium/ICfSAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1 at page 176


This Wikipedia article on Percy Zachariah Cox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Cox

says that Percy was born at Harwood Hall to Arthur Zachariah Cox.

The article on Arthur

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Button_(cricketer)

says that Arthur was born Arthur Button, and changed his name to "Cox" in 1858 when his relative Philip Zachariah Cox died, so that Arthur could inherit a share of Philip's estate.

This implies that Philip Zachariah Cox may have been childless.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

There is an aticle here about Harwood Hall

https://upminsterhistory.net/2020/03/27/big-houses-and-farms-around-corbets-tey/

which says:

"At auction on 17th September 1819 the purchaser was Philip Zachariah Cox Esq who lived at Harwood Hall from 1820 until his death in 1858....

"The Tithe Award in 1842 shows Cox occupying the Hall...

"Cox and his wife had no surviving children and on his death in 1858 he bequeathed Harwood Hall to a relation Arthur Zachariah Button (1814-70), who assumed the name of Cox; his infant son Arthur Philip Cox succeeded him."

[S R Eglesfield]

For completeness, I should perhaps mention that there is a (generally reliable) website at https://www.townsley.info/Strangeway/GedSite/g4/p3616.htm#i180783 which shows that Lord Albemarle Bertie and his mistress, Mary Coleback (or Colbatch) had two more sons, Robert (baptised 30 V 1760, died 1762) and Philip (baptised 12 I 1762, died that year).

[dpth...@gmail.com]

Thanks, and thanks to all who contributed on this topic!

[dpth...@gmail.com]

The information about Robert and Philip looks reliable. The owner of that site does not seem to know about Louisa Frances' marriage, nor about the Waterloo death of Lyndsey James, whom he calls "Sir".

If I knew how to contact him I would let him know about this topic on this board, but I cannot find any contact information.

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 5:13:59 AM UTC-6 S R Eglesfield wrote:

[gorgo...@gmail.com]

>>> If I knew how to contact him 

email: townsleyb  @  townsley.  info

[dpth...@gmail.com]

thanks!  I did contact him, and he has added the information as suggested. His own site is unusually well researched and is worth a look.