lvl 1 gunslinger ammo

[Matthew Paluch]

Does it really cost 11gp per SHOT, plus an extra 3gp for a horn to hold every 10 doses of black powder you buy?

[Marty Weil]

Short answer: No

Longer answer:

Gunsmith feat (free for being a member of the Gunslinger class)

Craft (Alchemy): 1 rank (worth it for the day job, to help defray ammo costs)

Gun kit: 15 gp (worth it in the long run for the savings)

Gunpowder: 10 gp, discounted to 1 gp

Firearm bullet: 1 gp, discounted to 1 sp

Powder horn is optional, I would only get one, and refill it between encounters

Waterproof bag: 5 sp (good for 10 rounds of immersion, only)

By the time you would likely need more then 10 shots in an encounter, you will have plenty of money for magic items that help out.

Also, remember that that 90% discount only applies to black powder and stand-alone ammo, not alchemical cartridges. The cartridges, at least the ones legal for PFS, are only at 50% off.

Unless you can figure out something I haven't, you won't be as rich as an archer, and nowhere near as rich as a Bladebound Magus, but you won't be the pauper some think any Gunslinger has to be...

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 1:44 AM, Matthew Paluch <geda...@edgeoftheworld.us> wrote:

Does it really cost 11gp per SHOT, plus an extra 3gp for a horn to hold every 10 doses of black powder you buy?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pathfinder-society-onlin...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to pathfinder-society...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pathfinder-society-online-collective?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Simon Thokaar]

Thats the PFS version of gun control laws.  If bullets are expensive you are gunna think twice before bustin a cap in somebody!

[Matthew Paluch]

arent all craft skills illegal?  and what gives the 90pct discount, i got lost ther esorry its 430am LOL

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pathfinder-society-online-collective/jYxBT893q7I/unsubscribe?hl=en.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to pathfinder-society-onlin...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to pathfinder-society...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pathfinder-society-online-collective?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--

Matthew Paluch
404.375.8898

"The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons

Be all my sins remember'd." - Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1

[Marty Weil]

From the Additional Resources page:

Feats: The following feats are not allowed in Pathfinder Society Organized Play: Expert Driver, Field Repair, Master Combat Performer, Master Siege Engineer, Performance Weapon Master, Performing Combatant, Secret Stash Deed, Siege Commander, Siege Engineer, Siege Gunner, Skilled Driver,, and all performance feats.
The following two feats function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play than they do in regular games:
Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item. No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.

From Ultimate Combat:

Gunsmithing

You know the secrets of repairing and restoring firearms.

Benefit: If you have access to a gunsmith's kit, you can create and restore firearms, craft bullets, and mix black powder for all types of firearms. You do not need to make a Craft check to create firearms and ammunition or to restore firearms.

Crafting Firearms: You can craft any early firearm for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm. At your GM's discretion, you can craft advanced firearms for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm. Crafting a firearm in this way takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of the firearm's price (minimum 1 day).

Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge. At your GM's discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day).

Restoring a Broken Firearm: Each day, with an hour's worth of work, you can use this feat to repair a single firearm with the broken condition. You can take time during a rest period to restore a broken firearm with this feat.

Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 2:35 AM, Matthew Paluch <geda...@edgeoftheworld.us> wrote:

arent all craft skills illegal?  and what gives the 90pct discount, i got lost ther esorry its 430am LOL

Above materials come from the Additional Resources page and the PRD for Ultimate Combat. Relevant sections highlighted in dark blue. Section highlighted in purple is also an important piece of information for anyone running a gunslinger PC.

[Matthew Paluch]

wow thanks!!  i completely missed that

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pathfinder-society-online-collective/jYxBT893q7I/unsubscribe?hl=en.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to pathfinder-society-onlin...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to pathfinder-society...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pathfinder-society-online-collective?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Martin Jennings]

I have a level 6 Gunslinger/Level 2 Cavalier.

Look into paper cartridges too and Rapid Reload is a must as a Feat, with these I get reload as a free action on a pistol.

Yes being a gunslinger costs, especially when you have to use adamantine bullets, but it is a fun class to play.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pathfinder-society-onlin...@googlegroups.com.

[Matthew Paluch]

Ill look into it!  I know firearms are never 'always avaiable but i do need to do my homework on what/how to buy stuff for this guy.  

I am having to mix in some thing for ) all the extra fteas and b) the sneak attack damage that stacks with the pistolero grit deed.  skipping 8-12 (bc frankly im unclear), here is my 1-7 feats.

any improvement sir?  be aware i also plan to be using an offhand whip to trip at reach, until it makes sense to dual wield pistols.

lvl 1 - two weapon fighting

lvl 2 - combat reflexes

lvl 3 - point blank 

lvl 3    -> precise shot

lvl 5 - rapid reload - move action!

lvl 5 - extra grit  

lvl 7 - quick draw

[Brandon Cecil]

Two weapon fighting is a tricky subject with pistols.  The big problem is that you need an empty hand/appendage to reload.

It requires clever tricks to pull off.

You also want point blank/precise shot ASAP.  I would go human or dwarf as well, humans get the extra feat and dwarves get a favored class bonus out of the ARG that lets you have 1/4 less misfire chance (minimum 1).

[Arthur Perkins]

You dont have combat expertise or improved trip, making that offhand whip cost you a hand and possibly -2 to hit for little gain. Tripped targets are also harder to hit for a gunslinger. 

Very Indiana Jones though

[Matthew Paluch]

yeah i may scrap the whole guy, not sure.

the two weapon choice was purely roleplay.  i was glancing at races i had not played, and saw that any half orc got whip as a free proficiency.  i had been looking for a race for my gunslinger, and BAM i loved the idea.

The element missing however is if i am making a completely mediocre character by multi classing.  basically, i realized that i couldnt get any of the feats i needed (precise) for a while, and i did not want to be useless.  Plus sneak attack stacks with a Pistolero archetype power i took.  So i actually plan to go Gun-1, then 5 straight levels of rogue to get all the free feats (use rogue combat trick to get free combat feat), then back to gun for the last 6.  So i will be AWESOME right as i ding 12 and retire.

besides being badass looking, the offhand whip with combat reflexes was meant to trip anyone close to me.  combined with a trait i chose that gives me TWO protected squares from AoO when i use a withdrawal action, and i pictured this guy darting in to 40 foot flanking range, raping with a touch attack that does +sneak attack damage too, tripping anyone who gets close, and using cmbt reflexes and that 2-immune withdrawal to avoid melee.

plus i love his rp background haha!

Ill look at combat expertise but with a weapon cord, i dont think i care if someone makesme drop my whip from a failed trip.

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Arthur Perkins <wvpol...@gmail.com> wrote:

You dont have combat expertise or improved trip, making that offhand whip cost you a hand and possibly -2 to hit for little gain. Tripped targets are also harder to hit for a gunslinger. 

Very Indiana Jones though

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pathfinder-society-online-collective/jYxBT893q7I/unsubscribe?hl=en.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to pathfinder-society-onlin...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to pathfinder-society...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pathfinder-society-online-collective?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Arthur Perkins]

By the time you are 12, the scenario limit will have 12-15's in season 5 and it wont be ' retiring '. And you can always apply Adventure Path sheets and modules to go past 12, there are some few fellows out there with level 20 PFS registered characters. 

[Marty Weil]

A few points that you might want to think about.

With the feats you show, you cannot take AoOs with a whip, so Combat Reflexes becomes a wasted feat. In order to take AoOs with a whip, you need to have Whip mastery and Improved Whip Mastery, which takes until you have a BAB of 5, along with requiring Weapon Focus (Whip). Not worth it for a Gunslinger/Rogue build.

My Indiana Jones clone, who still hasn't taken the level of Gunslinger I had originally planned on, is a Fighter (Lore Warden), doesn't have the trip or disarm feats, but manages to get by without them.

Also note, with a pistol and whip, you won't be getting any sort of AoOs at all. Ugly.

So, advice: Take the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats ASAP. No Combat Reflexes. Wait on Two Weapon Fighting until you are 5th level, since you won't have enough Fame for that second pistol until around then, anyhow. Move Rapid Reload to your 3rd feat, after Precise Shot. Keep your mind focused on whether you'll actually need the Extra Grit feat, as a Headband of Wisdom will be almost as good for grit, while also improving your Will saves, and giving a bump to Perception...

Quick Draw would be better than any weapon cord shenanigans. Just get a bunch of cheapie pistols for multiple attacks for a few rounds.

[Matthew Paluch]

Wow awesome reply marty, and let me be honest im gonna need to read all of those carefully, the re-read the ones i had planned on, then cross rerefence with my losy of what feats i need to have by certain lvls in order for stuff to trigger LOL.  welcome to pathfinder!

but off the top of my head, again not having had time to analyze your awesome notes - 

Think of this character as a rogue who happens to have a pistol, and see if that changes your mind.  My plan- 

lvl 1 - gunslinger

lvl 2-6 - rogue

lvl 7-12 gunslinger

so while i will use the pistols wonderful touch attack as much as i can, i am envisioning classic swashbuckler combat (from real life that is) where a pistol was used to fire off an initial shot as two opponents got to 15 feet or so, then dropped to draw a cutless/whatever.  obv ill use it as much as i can, but basically expect me to look and act like a rogue 95 percent of the time.  thats why i went with 2h fighting and combat reflexes, to not only get AoO with (for example) longsword and dagger, but to also avoid being flat footed and such as much as possible to get dex to Ac since i am basically wearing a speedo and a headband.  well i just looked up combat reflexes and it allows me to AoO a ton when flatfooted, BUt im still considered flatfooted for ac s far as i can tell.  so I am still losing my 5AC from dex, which is mostly why i wanted it.  i also wanted to trip people coming in using an AoO with the whip.  i dont plan to use the whip in melee range of someone so i dont need the whip mastert, focus, or improved whip - its sole purpose is (if i have combat reflexes) to trip people when they are 10 feet away and about to whack me flat footed.  then i run like hell on my turn.

The point blank and precise are still buy value buys because they will work with some form of bow too.

but that all brings up an interesting point - if i am planning to stay at range, then im buying 2h fighting and combat reflexes just to trip people when i am flatfooted and they approach.  seems easier to stay the hell at the back of the party and save 2 feats...

I still need to review all you wrote (thanks!!!) but just had some initial stream-of-consciousness to share =D

matt

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pathfinder-society-online-collective/jYxBT893q7I/unsubscribe?hl=en.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to pathfinder-society-onlin...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to pathfinder-society...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pathfinder-society-online-collective?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Marty Weil]

First, you are welcome. Let me go back to my thoughts for what you want to build, then.

To be honest, I would drop the Gunslinger entirely, and go for a slightly more consumable route. Tanglefoot bags, I think, will give you all sorts of benefits that the pistol won't. For one thing, with your projected build, you won't receive anything but base damage (and rare sneak attack damage) from the pistol until you reach 10th level. Touch is nice, but 1d8 damage, maybe plus magic and PBS? Not much. Especially with crits only on a 20.

As a rogue primary, TWF gives more chances for sneak attack damage, but at a cost of lowering your chance to actually hit your target with both attacks. Remember that the best you can do with TWF is to have a -2 on both attacks. Without full BAB, that -2 hurts, and diminishes the benefits of flanking to just covering for the loss. Watching a 7th level Ranger lower his to hit bonus to +7 on bow shots was painful. Attack rolls that could have hit if he was paying attention to circumstances, and removing the extra damage at a penalty from Deadly Aim, and the penalty from Rapid Shot, meant that he might do more damage on a hit, but was hitting so much less often that the extra damage was not making up for the lack of hits...

Again, without spending at least three feats, the last of which requires a +5 BAB, which your proposed build won't receive until 7th level, you cannot make any Attacks of Opportunity with a whip. To make an AoO with a whip, you need EWP: Whip, Weapon Focus: Whip, Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery. Really, to make a whip a viable weapon, you need to focus on it more. As I mentioned, I have a whip-based Fighter, and he didn't really hit his full stride until he hit 5th level, and a +5 BAB. And, even now, he keeps a second weapon as backup for when he wants to do damage, instead of silly whip tricks.

So: Whip: No AoOs without Improved Whip Mastery. Pistol: No AoOs unless Snap Shot works with pistols, and then only one, so no need for Combat Reflexes, until you get into melee with other weapons.

What you want, to rtain your Dex to AC even when flat footed is already a class feature for Rogues:

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.

If you go pure Rgue,m you get it at 4th level, with the proposed build, not until 5th level.

Assuming a Dex-based Rogue type, going for doing as many sneak attacks as possible from range, you would want to go Ninja instead of Rogue, so you can jump into the Vanishing Trick at 2nd level. That would still limit you to only as many sneak attacks extra as you have ki points, but it would be a better chance, at least at low levels to get that extra sneak attack off. And Ninja still gets Uncanny Dodge at 4th level.

If you really want that pistol, you can always burn a feat at 5th level or so for Gunsmithing, and buy that pistol (or brace of pistols) when your Fame allows.

Personally, unless there are extenuating circumstances, I tend to recommend against multi-classing, as it is difficult to get enough more from it than you give up from your primary class.I only have one PC who is currently MCed, and he only has one level splashes of Cleric and Ranger to go with his Fighter levels. I havce a couple of other PCs I have thought about MCing, but, at present, I have decided against it. Fighter (Lore Warden) into Gunslinger for pistols, and Fighter (Polearm Master) into Monk (Martial Artist) for IUS. Both of them, however, have also come under consideration for MCing into some sort of Magus...

To actually have reach with a weapon you can take AoOs with, you need to use a classical polearm to do it. I believe Rogue is proficient with the Longspear, and you can always drp it and switch to a classical melee weapon, if you want to.

Other options to get sneak attack more often:

Improved Feint: Move action Bluff vs Sense Motive checks to make your target flat footed to you. Only one attack as a result, but good at lower levels, when you only get one attack.

Combat Expertise/Gang Up: Flank any opponent two of your allies threaten. Only works for melee attacks, but it can be awesome. My Str-based Rogue built uses it and a polearm to stay viable without going higher risk than his AC allows. But he has a lower AC, and more basic damage, as he is high Str rather than high Dex.

A three level dip into Fighter (Lore Warden) can get you some benefits for CMB/CMD, and extra feats, including Combat Expertise for "free", without compromising too much on skill points, if you want to consider going into Improved Dirty Trick (I can even see a way a whip could be used to blind your opponent.)

Note: I am strongly prejudiced toward the Lore Warden archetype for Fighters, these days, as I seldom go for the heavy tank melee builds to begin with. I also had tried a Rogue (Sniper) halfling build, which is what morphed, after a futile scenario, into the human Str-based vanilla Rogue I play now.

On your Rogue - Please remember that you need to start participating in combat ASAP, not spend 5 rounds sneaking around to get off a single crossbow shot for sneak attack damage.

[spoiler]True story, by the way. Low Str halfling Rogue, spent most of every combat trying to sneak around to get a crossbow shot into melee without firing through cover. I don't remember him hitting with the few shots he got off, either. Fortunately, he was the fifth player in a Season 1 scenario, so we managed to carry his load, just not terribly happily.[/spoiler]

Oh, and while I haven't spoken up in that thread, I am one of the people almost out of low-level options to play, and not that many more left to GM. 6 1-5s, 1 1-7, 7 3-7s, higher tiers are much more open; mainly because most locals don't have many PCs up to 5th level or higher. 15 5-9s left, 20 7-11s left. Of course, these numbers include both recent Specials (no con here to play them at anymore) and the projected Season 5 scenarios that are visible in the ordering system...

Marty, kinevon on the Paizo forums

15 living PFS PCs, from 2-12 (16 died from a We Be Goblins! TPK)

[Matt Jackson]

This likely doesn't help over all, but half-orcs can get whip proficiency with the City-Raised alt racial.

[Marty Weil]

Which is why I said 3 feats, not four. EWP: Whips is needed for anyone but City-raised half-orcs and Bards, IIRC.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pathfinder-society-onlin...@googlegroups.com.

[Matthew Paluch]

yeah i snagged whip as part of arena bred... will reply to rest later, thanks!!!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pathfinder-society-online-collective/jYxBT893q7I/unsubscribe?hl=en.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to pathfinder-society-onlin...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to pathfinder-society...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pathfinder-society-online-collective?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Matthew Paluch]

well i had a really cool back story about how he was half orc Mwangi because his mother was captured as a slave to breed fighters for the arena ( i was arena bred0, but really i wanted:

gnome experimental gunsmith!!!  until i saw it was banned.

Mwangi was my second choice, i just chose half-orc because i have a lot of humans already and had never even read the rules for h-orc.  im gonna go Human (Mwangi) like i should have from start, and remove all the melee stuff.  be it bow or pistols, i will be precise shooting into melee, prferably at the 20-40 range =D

thanks again all

[Matthew Paluch]

ok one last question.  assuming rapid shot, two weapon, etc etc

quick reloading and paper cartrigdes etc

 --> double barrel pistols, plus rapid shot.  so 6 attack rolls

looking at the pistolero archetype

At 1st level, when the pistolero hits a target with a one-handed firearm that is not making a scatter shot, she can spend 1 grit point to deal 1d6 points of extra damage on a hit. If she misses with the attack, she grazes the target, dealing half the extra damage anyway. She must choose to spend the grit point before she makes the attack roll. 

is that gonna cost me 0 grit (bc some just say you need to have it not spend it, i swear i had some trait to do that), 1 grit, 2 grit (one for each hand, rapid shot doesnt count as a separate 'thingy'), or 3 grit for three 'actions', or 6 whole grit because i technically have to roll twice for one pull of the trigger with a double pistol??

sorry but this is confusing me =/

matt

On Monday, May 27, 2013 3:44:58 AM UTC-5, Matthew Paluch wrote:

[David Silver]

Sure looks like 6 to me, or rather, UP TO 6.

[Matthew Paluch]

I concur.  a forum troll was trying to convince me it was 0, so long as you had 1 grit remaininf.  there are powers that say 'doesnt cost a grit, but you have to have one left'. but i cant find an example atm.  i wonder if i can feat for that.

i actually simplied his example - he got off 10 shots.  Which would require a wisdom of 30, and could be done once per day.  hes doing it every round lol.  munchkins.

googling gunslinger is hard bc so many of the posts are written by such types.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pathfinder-society-online-collective/jYxBT893q7I/unsubscribe?hl=en.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to pathfinder-society-onlin...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to pathfinder-society...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pathfinder-society-online-collective?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Brandon Cecil]

It would indeed cost a grit point for each shot that gets the benefit of Up Close and Deadly.  The upside is that if you had the grit, you would get to add that precision damage to every one of your six shots.  

Note that at level 11 you can take the Signature Deed feat, which allows you to pick a single deed and have it cost one less grit.  When UCaD  becomes free, you get (at that point) 3d6 precision damage on every single shot, and by that point you could be firing a dozen times per round.

[Matthew Paluch]

ahh i knew signature deed was huge but wow, that would be great.  assuming i live to lvl 11!  actually im less worred about dying and more worried about going broke haha!

but signature deed seems so... critical.  it may cause me to (yet again) redesign this guy from scratch.  last night he went from half orc w whip to human who used his pistol rarely then went longbow most of the fight.

but now i may ditch all ofthe rogue levels i had in my plan... but its So tempting sinec sneak attack damage explictly adds to the pistolero grit power =/  

maybe one or two amazing shots a day is better than trying to pray i get to 11 for unlimited cheese on that whopper.