Monthly No Prize Contest (NPC): Comments (3/5)

[Administrator]

Continued from here

[MHiller]

When i do RAW shots, i usually "play with the knobs" that are automatically coming up when loading it into an editing program.
Do one have to outline this too?

[4ullas]

Hi NPC friends:

When doing HDR I use to tell it. My entry for this month was not HDR at all. I just edited the JPG file with Picasa 2 and enhanced sligthly the colors. I thought this was not a significant change in the original shot, at least after realizing that many HDR shots are not declared when entering at NPC.

The problem for a good use of rule #3 is to define what can be considered as really significant and who is responsible fo assessing on that.

Best regards and april contest from 4Ullas

[grcav]

Quote 4ullas:

The problem for a good use of rule #3 is to define what can be considered as really significant and who is responsible fo assessing on that.

Agreed. At best one can come up with a list of examples of techniques which should be declared whenever used but even then I ask myself why the trouble? For the case at hand, how much does it matter if it s an HDR or not? Would you vote differently?

I personally think that rule 3 is there to suggest strongly that if somebody, say, pasted a ominous tempestuous sky where there was nothing but flat grayness above some scenery, then they should let us know.

Gil

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Sorry guys, but you are making too big a very small thing, rule 3 is there and you can read there what exactly it want to means and all the suggestions on what are the significant changes.
I remember everybody used to write these technical data below their pictures and it was interesting see how a picture was or not edited.
Nevertheless I didn't write the rules and I agree it is not so important but exist as the others.
Greetings, Bruno.

[Jessica G.]

I thought rule #3 was up to the photographer. If you consider that your photo has been significantly edited - and the edit isn't obvious already - you should let other users know in the contest. Black and white, HDR, stitched panorama, adding a watermark/border: these are all fairly significant edits, but they should be obvious for anyone viewing the photo. So does it make much sense for each user to list these?

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote Jessica G.:

I thought rule #3 was up to the photographer. If you consider that your photo has been significantly edited - and the edit isn't obvious already - you should let other users know in the contest. Black and white, HDR, stitched panorama, adding a watermark/border: these are all fairly significant edits, but they should be obvious for anyone viewing the photo. So does it make much sense for each user to list these?

Yeah, I think I agree with this. Let the photo stand on its own merits. If the user wants to show off his/her technical skill with equipment and software, then he/she can discuss it....or for that matter, hide it, it doesn't matter that much. Personally I am happy to include the changes I make, in case somebody wonders about a particular characteristic of the photo, but I don't think it is critical to whether a photo is good or not, or whether it deserves a prize. If we all agree (do we?) that the act of photography goes beyond simply hitting the shutter, to the electronic darkroom, then why worry too much about manipulation? As voters, we can still decide for ourselves if what has been done is not enough, or too much.

[Stefano Mascioli]

Well, also April contest is gone, I voted.

In my opinion, too bad HDRs this month, I disagree.

Forcing a sky with HDr is easiest to transform a rainy day in the storm of the century, but it is also the better system in order to ruin a beautiful photo

Anyway, they were also many fine photos that escaped to this trap, so choose has been difficult but satisfatory.

Best regards to all.

[purdey12345]

It won't affect me or tvangroningen but Ghiocela's vote here presumably won't be counted as it's too late?

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote purdey12345:

It won't affect me or tvangroningen but Ghiocela's vote here presumably won't be counted as it's too late?

I think this is correct; the mods are requested to alert Ghiocela and remove the vote.

[Daniela Brocca]

I edited Ghiocela's vote

[Bruce da Moose]

We now await with bated breath the official announcement of the 2009 April NPC winner, who will tell us the next exciting topic for May!

Congratulations to... :

[(º_º)-Aender (Arcos-mg)]

Hello, People! I attended the NPC for the first time with this picture!
this is not really a great "bad weather", but I hope I fit more to fear in the next contest! I would very much like to join the NPC. This competition is a success! Greetings to all!

[Luud Old]

I was very surprised and very pleased to hear to be the winner from the April NPC **Bad Weather contest**.

Surprised ,because this is a 35 year old slide scan.
Happy, because this was the second time I've participated in the contest.
Peronally I like this photo because it shows us very clearly the impressive force of nature.

I've been waiting to place this photo until I was sure
that a victory wouldn’t be eligible, because all the rules of the Contest were not very clear to me,

A wrong estimate!!
The small difference in votes shows us that this wasn’t easy.

I want to thank everyone very much for their votes and I'll wish you all a lot of fortune in the May contest.

Greetings Luud

[4ullas]

Dear NPC family:

I have just uploaded at the thread NPC Clipboard for RANKINGS and STATISTICS, the complementary list of the April'09 Contest.

I would like to upload the list at the Month Tread as usually, but it was already locked. Could you Daniella reopen for uploading it?


Thanks a lot all the participants for your great pictures and congratulatios to the threemost voted: The winner Luud Old, Guia arquitectura, Bruce da Moose and Sergio Canobbio. Your pictures are great.

Best regards from 4Ullas.

[Sergio Canobbio]

Hi 4ullas, I think Daniela will reopen the thread for you. Maybe you'll have to wait 'til monday, since today is holiday in Italy and most people go outside



I'd like to ask you all about an "ethic" problem. I'll be far from home from may 9th to may 23rd, with scarce probability to access the web, so I'll probably can't be able to vote and count. Would it be fair to partecipate to the NPC contest anyway :

[bainketa]

Quote Sergio Canobbio:

Hi 4ullas, I think Daniela will reopen the thread for you. Maybe you'll have to wait 'til monday, since today is holiday in Italy and most people go outside



I'd like to ask you all about an "ethic" problem. I'll be far from home from may 9th to may 23rd, with scarce probability to access the web, so I'll probably can't be able to vote and count. Would it be fair to partecipate to the NPC contest anyway :

I think participating is the important thing.

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote bainketa:

I agree. I would not worry too much about the vote or count - we want to see your photos!

[4ullas]

Many Thanks Sergio.

So do I. The important is to participate.

Best regards from 4Ullas

[Sergio Canobbio]

LoL! Thank you guys!!! I'll partecipate light-hearted!

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi everybody, are there any good news from Luud?

[Luud Old]

Hello everybody, for those who all ready to become a little bit nervous ,
the Issue I have chosen for the NPC May contest is the Sun.
This must be good news for you Bruno !! The firs idea I had was Tulips and Windmills.
The homepage below I’ve made with the help of Wim and Rob's program, many thanks for the good work to both of you .

I will ask you to report any errors or ambiguities .
Please note , my English is very bad and I ‘m unable to enter discussions, I think the chosen subject is very clear for all.
I’m waiting for your feed back,

Greetings Luud

[Luud Old]

Hi everybody my name is Luud Riphagen. I am the moderator of this month's No Prize Contest
This post is to announce the beginning of the 2009 May NPC with the subject:
Here comes the sun

I Like you to post a photo with a sunrise or sunset. As long as I can see the sun, it's alright with me.
Some examples to clarify

Even if you're a veteran in NPC, please take a look to them since they are in continuous process of improvement and there are some changes from last month's edition.
Here are the rules of the competition, in different languages

Here you can post any comments, questions on this topic (Entries only )

Post your picture from May 1st at 00.00 till May 10th at midnight (CET or Panoramio Official Time).

Please, do not begin voting until May 11th at 00.01 h. Any vote before that time will not be counted.

Please, check your entry number right after posting and change it if necessary so it is properly sequenced with other incoming entries.

Please TAG your entry photo 2009 May NPC - Please edit the TITLE of your entry Photo to include your entry number, eg #22 My Photo - Failure to do so may reduce the success of your photo.

Now start looking in your gallery and find the next winner of the NPC.
Good luck to you all!

[Herb Riddle]

Wow! sunrise - sunsets. We can look forward to many thousands of entries for this then. Am already sifting through my numerous pictures of this kind. Have fun, and good luck to all my fellow contestants! Cheers, Herb

[Sergio Canobbio]

Of course... After the Bad Weather, here comes the Sun...

[4ullas]

Hi everybody:

At the NPC Clipboard for Rankings and Statistics, I have uploaded the updated Rankings of TOP 30 Most Voted Pictures and the Unnoficial Ranking of the most voted phtographers

http://www.panoramio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=196882#196882

Congratulation to all the TOP 30 listed and the authors of the Most Voted Pictures.

Best regards from 4Ullas

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote Herb Riddle:

Wow! sunrise - sunsets. We can look forward to many thousands of entries for this then. Am already sifting through my numerous pictures of this kind. Have fun, and good luck to all my fellow contestants! Cheers, Herb

I think this needs to be very clear - Luud has asked for photos that contain *the sun* -

1 - it does not sound like it *must* be either a sunset or sunrise, as long as the sun is visible;

2 - conversely, a sunset or sunrise that does NOT have the sun pictured in it may not be permissible.

Luud, please advise if what I have said is not correct.

~ Bruce

[Luud Old]

I think it's correct what you said Bruce.

Maybe it's a good idea to put this example on my page.






Greetings Luud

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote Luud Old:

Wow! That rocks , Luud - great help!

[Piadera]

Very nice topic, I guess it will be tough choices again!
That's fine, sun is beautiful and deserves this !!!

Good luck everyone!

P.S.: Don't look at her in your visor too long...

[Luud Old]

Thank you all for your constructive comments . It has really helped me.
I think you have to be an international lawyer to clearly define everything and hope that for the photographers among us, everything is crystal clear by the help of my visible examples.

I'll like to wish you all a lot of fortune in the May contest.

Greetings Luud

[4ullas]

erased

[Sandy065]

Quote 4ullas:

Dear Luud Old:

On my watch, it is 00:15 AM 1st May.

Where can I post my entry for May'09 NPC?

Best regards

Don't you sleep, 4ullas ??

[Sandy065]

Quote 4ullas:

noooooooo

You might shoot another sunrise, you know? If Luud is visiting China is sleeping like an angel now...

[Sandy065]

Oh my God, what a stupid idiot I am...
Today in Holland they should celebrate their Queen and that tragedy happened during parade,,,

Sorry Luud!

[4ullas]

It is 12:48.

Dear Luud:

I am deeply sorry about the tragedy in Holland.

I wish the best to you and the dutch people.

4Ullas

[Marcello Mento]

Daniela, mi aiuti?
Ho postato la foto, ma compare solo un'icona, anche se cliccandoci sopra la foto poi si vede (sigh). Ciao, Marcello

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Ciao Marcello, devi solo togliere la parentesi quadra che compare dopo il numero ID nella seconda riga del codice.

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Ciao, bruno.

[Luud Old]

Sorry about the late posting . By the terrible tragedy in Apeldoorn, my hometown, my watch has stopped for a while.

Thank you for your kindness and sympathy.

Greetings Luud

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi Luud, very sorry for that, I've got some relatives living in Amsterdam and they told me it was a great sorrow!
Well, please pay attention at the game, we got troubles with the entries numbers, we got two #40 and now two #45.
All the best from bruno.

[kamalyn]

Yikes! Yes - the numbering from entry 40 on has fallen into total chaos. Daniela - could you fix? I hope you're around today although it is May Day. It seems that with all of us trying to correct our own entries, its making things even more confusing.

[Panamon-Creel]

Had to temporarly lock the thread to be able to fix it since folks just kept pounding wrong numbers in.
Please double check your replies after posting to verify if someone else posted in the meanwhile and edit right away. Furthermore don't trust the one prior to your post on being correct ;)

[kamalyn]

Hi Panamon - thanks for that, except there's still a big problem - Laurentiu Mitu's entry is there twice - as both 41 and now 53. He'd originally tried to delete 41, and re-entered it as then-51. So both entries are the same photo by the same person. His second entry needs to be deleted. It may keep things simpler if 53 stays there, but blank, with a 'withdrawn' note on it or something.

[Panamon-Creel]

Done

[diannemcd]

My apologies to all that followed me with numbering, I feel very embarrased, I did have the number 41 there originally, but somehow with me not doing my entry correctly in the first instance and edited it, the number must have somehow been deleted. My apologies to all I have caused any grief to. Dianne ops:

[Luud Old]

Hi Panamon ,

I will friendly ask you to delete all wrong posts of Frank Knaap.
Only #84 may continue.

Greetings Luud

[Panamon-Creel]

Quote Luud Old:

Cheeez you guys need a full time baby sitter here
Done

[Luud Old]

Quote Panamon_Creel:

Panamon ,thanks on behalf of all babyies for your quick response.

Kind regards Luud

[Carlo Tosti]

Luud Sorry, now we are two 93!

What should I do since I arrived after the post?

Condolences for the tragedy occurred in your country

Carlo T.

[Panamon-Creel]

Quote Carlo T.:

Luud Sorry, now we are two 93!
What should I do since I arrived after the post?

Delete and re-upload with corrected consecutive numbering. Check right after upload if someone else posted in the meanwhile and correct immediately if needed.

[Carlo Tosti]

I hope I have done everything right.
Forgive the trouble and thanks for your precious help!

Ciao da Carlo T.

[Luud Old]

Quote Carlo T.:

Luud Sorry, now we are two 93!

What should I do since I arrived after the post?

Condolences for the tragedy occurred in your country

Carlo T.

Many thanks Carlo for your expression of sympathy.

Kind regards Luud

[© Morrique]

Hi Luud,

First of all let me express you my deepest condolences for the tragedy happened in your hometown. We're all very sorry.

Second, I guees some of the postings don't comply with the samples you were so kind to post and might not be eligible. :

[Luud Old]

Quote © Morrique:

Hi Luud,

First of all let me express you my deepest condolences for the tragedy happened in your hometown. We're all very sorry.

Second, I guees some of the postings don't comply with the samples you were so kind to post and might not be eligible. :

Many thanks Morrique for your condolences, it has affected us all.


I'm not an international lawyer but I think for Photographers the rules and the examples are crystal clear .

I hope the participants will voting in the catagory * What I would like to see *

If there are postings in the catagory- * not allowed * , I will tell the participants

There always will be * cases of borderline *, in that case the participants may decide.

Greetings Luud

[Daniela Brocca]

Hi guys, here I am , your full time baby sitter. Sorry I've been away a couple of days, on a Pan meeting in central Italy. I only gave a look to the game. Thanks to Panamon Creel for moderating. Ciao, Daniela

[Eva Kaprinay]

Dear Luud, I am deeply sorry about the tragedy in Holland.

I wish the best to you and the dutch people.

Greeting from Wellington Hungarian Eva

[Piadera]

Quote Piadera:

Very nice topic, I guess it will be tough choices again!
That's fine, sun is beautiful and deserves this !!!

Good luck everyone!

P.S.: Don't look at her in your visor too long...

You see, I told you guys, 145 shots so far and counting..., this is wonderful.

I am already puzzled with choices!!! Could we get to vote more than 10?

Sun deserves exceptions!

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote Piadera:

Other participants and voters have been asking for an increase in allowable votes too - once again, the 10% figure has been floated by Steve111 and myself to Luud. With the NPC Toolkit software now available for counting, it makes the tally of those votes trivial.

[Nick Weall]

I have just carefully gone through the entries to date and short listed 20 shots as being really worth voting for ~ with others that I really like just as much being left out already.

This is going to be a really tough contest to objectively vote for and Bruce's idea of 10% of the total number of shots entered seems a very good one.

Even then we are going to have to be hyper selective when narrowing down our choices.

I say congratulations are already in order to the vast majority of the entries so far. ~~ Ciao nick

[Piadera]

10% rocks.
I am also hoping to get to vote 20 shots!
However we need more


Regards.

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Quote ©Bruno Tortarolo:

Quote:

I read your posts about the rules and the voting process, rules are necessary, nothing to say, but I really disagree with the "no limit on number of votes", seems to be better add 1 vote each 20 entries after the first 100...
120 entries/11 votes
140 entries/12 votes and so on with the minimum of 5 votes.

I quote myself only to remind to all of you my proposal to add a vote in according on what I wrote.
I know we can't do that when the game is running, but maybe for the next contest, I think is necessary.
Well guys, this is the last posting day...good luck to everybody here!
B.

I quote myself again to remind you this proposal I made a long time ago.
Twenty votes sounds to me really too much, try to see all the pictures with a more critical eye...and this month I see so many pictures off-topic.
Best regards, Bruno.

[RobStamp]

If there are 80 entrants we vote for 8, ie selecting 1 in 10, when 100 it is again 1 in 10.
So why do we have to be more descriminating with more entrants, whether stuck on 10, or a few more with Bruno's equation?

The rules are to allow the game to be played fairly, but should not reduce the enjoyment of the game.
I think a 10% limit is hardly a rule change, just a natural progression with the game's popularity.
What-if 2b had said:-
b) total choices are limited: 5 if < 60 entries, 6 if < 70, 7 if < 80, 8 if < 90, 9 if < 100, and 10 if 100 and so on.

The best liked photos still do well, voters have an easier job, less people get zero votes.

But if people do not feel strongly enough to comment here, it will again be 10.

[grcav]

Hi there,

earlier I wrote a message in favour of a cap at (some point) in the number of votes. Whatever was I thinking then has gone away by now and I agree with the 10% figure.

I find that since nowadays we are getting all or nearly all of the participants to include their entry number in the title and Wim & Rob's program can do the counting easily, the difficulty with (more entrants and) votes is to (browse to more photos and) write a longer string of numbers. I'm ok with that. Certainly more so than with the hair splitting we to do have sometimes.

Another remark is that if one finds that there are not that many shots worth their vote or that, say, 5% of the shots are of much superior quality, one can vote according to their convictions (minimum of 5 votes still). If one wants to use all their votes, then just do it.

Gil

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote grcav:

Gil, it's good to see you've come from the dark side into the light! Your logic is impeccable!

[Daniela Brocca]

I'm not sure that increasing the number of votes more people will receive one. It's also possible that the same photos receive more votes. The 10% of the votes to about the 10% of photos and the same quantity as always of people with zero votes. But I agree with the 10 % , even if I think like Bruno about being a little bit more critical. As we are not obliged to vote all the votes, it's ok. Daniela

[grcav]

Quote Bruce da Moose:

Gil, it's good to see you've come from the dark side into the light![...]

It must have been the passage from bad weather to sunny days

[photodegraff]

I agree with those advocating for allowing votes for up to 10% of the entries. I just went thru all the entries to date, followed Luud's guidelines pretty strictly (eliminating those that lacked the sun AND those he described as "borderline&quot and I still selected almost 20 images in that first cut. If 10% of the entries is reasonable for <100 entries, I can see no logical reason to be more restrictive for >100 entries. Particularly since I don't believe we are seeing declining quality as we get more particpants. If anything, the overall quality of the entries appears to me to be steadily increasing.

[BWS's ghost]

10% was the original rule. max of 10 if more than 100 was added when entries suddenly rose a lot (was not my recommendation). now that there is a counting program, why not a max of 15%, or 20%, or unlimited?

because: the max was established mainly to ensure voters took time to really consider their choices, and not simply select every nice shot they see.

so, whatever the max, all voters should always carefully consider all entries and not just vote the maximum allowed, unless there are a lot of really, really excellent entries, that match the subject very well, as described by the mod.

luud, i'd recommend 10% of total entries, though it's really up to you as mod-of-the-month, with ultimate responsibility for determining the final results.

[Luud Old]

I want to thank everyone for the comments on the voting system,
as I have seen there are many different opinions,
and there were although many discussions in the past.

I am a newcomer, and I felt not called for changing the rules .

Therefore I put a high value to Brians advice and will follow-up his 10% advice.

If there is a reason to change the official rules ,then I would ask you friendly to do this before.

I hope that because of my translation problems , the message is clear.

If that is not the case I would still like to hear from you.

Kind regards

Luud Riphagen

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote Luud Old:

Hi, Luud - the question is, it seems whether...

~ (A) to maintain the 10% rule only up to 100 images and then cut it off at 10 votes total (This is the current method developed by Brian, bless his heart), or

~ (B) to allow the 10% rule to extend beyond 100 images so that more than 10 votes could be cast (This is the suggested new method that some people are requesting).

If you could specify (A) or (B), we would be greatly obliged

Bruce da Moose

[Luud Old]

Hi Bruce,
If Brian has recomended me ,10% of the total entries ,then it means (B),
isn't it ??

Greetings Luud

[BWS's ghost]

hi luud, you are right. so, 10% of 171 is 17 as you've stated in the contest voting message for this month.

hi bruce, i was always in favor of the 10% rule as originally written. the "max of 10 when more than 100" was recommended by someone else, many months ago. there was enough agreement at the time to adjust the rule, but now with wim and rob's spreadsheet counter, that change can obviously be removed.

it is only a maximum, so vote for 10 if you prefer, or 5, or 12, just no more than 17 this time

[David Soler]

Ops, I did it, I edited my entry after the posting period was closed...what a stupid thing. I only wanted to delete a red text the moderator previously wrote as an edit, and did not modify the image in any way. I'm sorry about that, obviously it was not my intention to break any rule of the contest ... If you Luud as the moderator consider that my entry should be eliminated from the contest I will accept this... In my defense, I would like to add that the edit was made before any vote was posted.

David

[Luud Old]

Quote David Soler:

Ops, I did it, I edited my entry after the posting period was closed...what a stupid thing. I only wanted to delete a red text the moderator previously wrote as an edit, and did not modify the image in any way. I'm sorry about that, obviously it was not my intention to break any rule of the contest ... If you Luud as the moderator consider that my entry should be eliminated from the contest I will accept this... In my defense, I would like to add that the edit was made before any vote was posted.

David

Oke David , if Daniele wants forgive you, Iwill do so.

But you have to promise me next time ,to enter your entry number in the title on the right way.

Kind regards Luud Riphagen

[4ullas]

Hi every body:

I have just uploaded at the NPC Clipboard of Rankings and Statistics the May'09 Country and Continental tables and Lists.

Good luck to all the participants for reaching the 170 entry record, particularly to Luud Old for selecting such an atractive topic.

Best Regards from 4ullas

[Luud Old]

Hi Daniela,

Here is my comment on the entries:

Not tagged on the right way 2009 May NPC - #70 and # 150.

Not tagged forum post on the right way - #25

Entry number does not exist - #53


Kind regards ,

Luud Riphagen

[David Soler]

Quote Luud Old:

Oke David , if Daniela wants forgive you, Iwill do so.

But you have to promise me next time ,to enter your entry number in the title on the right way.

Kind regards Luud Riphagen

Yes, I promise to be a good boy next time

Thank you Luud!

[Daniela Brocca]

Quote Luud Old:

Hi Luud, yes, I see. About 70 and 150 you wrote to the participants what the had to do. More cannot we do. I edited the 25 and I hope people will be aware that the 53 does not exist.I deleted all the red text PC had put in a lot of post by editing them. I don't know what was the problem with them. I was away those days. Daniela

[Sandy065]

This month I voted (somehow) 18 entries instead of 17...

I'm in a kind of trouble now because I don't know what to choose... I posted a red PS in the voting post, PS that I will delete tomorow, asking for volunteers to be un-voted.

Any other ideas to help me please (except shooting myself)? ops:

[grcav]

Hi Sandy,

you managed to narrow from 171 to 18 photos, surely you can narrow to 17 now. Nobody will take badly if their photo is unvoted (myself included). Just take another look at those photos and remove the one you like least.

Best luck,

Gil

[Sandy065]

Thanks Gil again!

I will do this if until tomorrow no volunteer is coming up.

Update: Well... I thought about it and I lost christache not to make a big thing out of this. Hope he will understand me.

[©christake]

Everything it's OK, folks! No matters!

[Sandy065]

Takin into consideration that our friend tvangroningen withdrew (even if I cannot fully understand this)

Quote tvangroningen:

Dear friends,

I withdraw my photo because I' will be deprived of any digital mean the following weeks. Thanks a lot for your interest and votes.

With sincere regards , Thomas

I changed my vote re-introducing ©christake's picture no. 136 instead of 101 tvangroningen's...

I hope everybody is OK with this.

[Bits-n-Pieces]

My comment/question is probably a question for the Forum Mods in general, since it seems there needs to be a consensus on what's made a sticky:

It seems it might help those new to the NPC if the 'Rules' could be made a sticky, so they're always at the top of the Games thread, making it simpler to guide people to them. Any chance of doing that for the start of the June NPC?

(There was a new entrant who was spamming his NPC entry a lot, and it was difficult to find the Rules thread to point them to it - and then the link I made just brought them to the uppy symbol at the bottom. I don't think it's needed to point out who was spamming, though, since I don't think the spamming had any impact on voting, etc. The user quickly deleted all comments that had spam after being told it was not OK, and the ads never explained how to vote, etc. I think the spammer thinks the NPC was set up like the Official Contest, and is even waiting for a button to appear on photos to vote...another reason (maybe) to keep the rules more prominent.)

[Daniela Brocca]

I always take care to write a post on the rules' thread every few days to have it up on the page. There are others many rules for others games. I don't think it's needed to make them all sticky. It's enough to see them in the first page. If needed I'm sure someone 'll help if there are mistakes and lead to the right thread. Daniela

[Ian Dyer]

Guimax has made a comment in the vote section of the competition. The comment has numbers in it which are showing as votes in the NPC Toolkit. Perhaps the comment should be moved to the comments area or deleted.

[Wim Janssen]

Hi Ian,
The program tries to retrieve votes from any post. In the past people were very 'creative' in there voting post.
You can just put a 'No' in the OK column on the second 'vote' post of Guimax. And press 'count votes' again. No need to delete it.

Cheers, Wim

[Daniela Brocca]

Thank you, Ian, I forgot to delete it. Now it's done.

[Wim Janssen]

That's even a better solultion! Thank you Daniela, what would we do without you.

[Ian Dyer]

Thanks Daniella and Wim.

[Daniela Brocca]

Does someone know if someguyinmasset and kamaly are the same person? If so he/she is voting with an account for the other. Daniela

[Wim Janssen]

Daniela can you please unquote the vote-post of danimero.

[Daniela Brocca]

Done

[Bits-n-Pieces]

LOLOL, no, Guy and Kamaly very much are NOT the same human/person at all, and have never met. someGuyinMasset lives on a small island north of Vancouver island, in a town named Masset. Guy has several self-portrait photos posted. gnarlysurferdude, who entered in the 'Door' competition a few months ago is Guy's second page. Nawitka can verify Guy's background, and Guy's actual sister is another of the entrants this month and can also verify who he is.

Kamaly and Bits-n-Pieces sure aren't Guy, but are very much the same person - as noted in the Bits-n-Pieces profile, and a recent self-portrait posted. I live in the States in the state of Massachusetts - a complete coincidence with the Canadian 'Masset' name. Do I vote for Guy's photos a lot? Yes, very much, as do many people. I like the style, and his entries typically have a very different take on a subject, which is what I base my voting on.

Along with several others, I'm one of the people who encouraged Guy to switch his entries this month to the current one, because several of us really like the photo. A view of my own sunset shots, and the ones I voted for this month (as 'Kamaly') show that I really like sunsets with silhouettes. No huge stretch at all then for me to have voted for Guy's entry.

Since neither Guy or I have ever entered more than once in a month under our own different user names, and neither of us have voted under more than one page in a month or for our own photos, there's no rules being broken or even bent. There are many people who openly have several pages and make one entry and vote in a particular month under the different pages in different months.

But thanks Daniela for looking into the concern and making sure that the rules are being respected.

But - and just a thought - I also wonder if it would be worth changing the guidelines to allow one entry per user page, especially since the 'SPC" allows up to 4 or 5 entries per person. That way, no one would have to be concerned if they thought someone else was posting multiple entries from multiple pages. It could still be discouraged to vote for another photo of your own, but with the current number of entries, even if someone did choose to vote for themselves one or two more votes wouldn't make the difference. Most of us probably wouldn't want to post more than one (I know I wouldn't usually care to - too much of a hassle to keep track of things.) But it would leave the option open to those who have applicable entries on different pages.

[4ullas]

Hi everybody:

First of all, congratulation to Luud Old for such a great Month NPC. It has beatten almost all the previous contest records.

Secondly, thanks to all the 170 contestants for the beautiful entries and congratulation to Farangas, the deserved winner.

Thirdly, I would like to give open floor for discussing the following topic:

For the first time, May'09 NPC has allowed to cast till 17 votes per voter, when the previous maximum casting was 10. This is not any problem if you are focussing only at the May NPC.

But the problem arises when trying to aggregate the May'09 NPC to the 14 previous month results: they become clearly unequal because the voters of those months where only allowed to cast a maximum of 10 (Several months the maximum was only 6 or 7)

In order to minimized that deleterious statistical effect, I have a proposal to make:

To calculate two Tables of aggregate results:

Table1, or Table of Real Votes. It will follow the same criteria as April´09

Table2, or Table of Normalized or Harmonized Votes. The real votes will be multiplied by a normalization/harmonization factor. This factor will consider 10 votes as the normal or basic maximun number of vote to cast.

Accordng to this criteria the factor will be as follows:

Months with maximun cast of 5 Factor will be 1/0.5
Months with maximun cast of 6 Factor will be 1/0.6
Months with maximun cast of 7 Factor will be 1/0.7
Months with maximun cast of 8 Factor will be 1/0.8
Months with maximun cast of 9 Factor will be 1/0.9
Months with maximun cast of 10 Factor will be 1
Months with maximun cast of 11 Factor will be 1/1.1
Months with maximun cast of 12 Factor will be 1/1.2
Months with maximun cast of 13 Factor will be 1/1.3
.
Months with maximun cast of 17 Factor will be 1/1.7
.
Months with maximun cast of 2n Factor will be 1/2.n
.
and so on.....

Please, this is just a proposal to be discussed and I ask for a special attention from those members of the NPC famility, who have Statistical background, such as David Soler, Gil, etc.....

Best regards

[David Soler]

Hey 4ullas... I'm not so an expert in statistics!

What is the aim of the recalculations you suggest? Does it mean that you'll recalculate the results of ALL the previous contests in order to get a normalized classification? That's a loooot of work!! Anyway it's fine for me, then the results will be in fact more comparable...

Salut!

[Bruce da Moose]

I think the proposal to statistically normalize the results is an acceptable one, although probably not essential. The reason is that over the long-term, assuming the NPC continues unabated for years, the results will tend to be self-normalizing anyway (even if the winner in a BIG month garners a huge number of votes). This would only be untrue if specific photographers - farangas, for example - were to get lopsided numbers of big scores month after month, completely obliterating the competition.

So, My vote is "yay" or "yes" to normalizing the tallys but not from a strongly held position. If our statistical wizards wish to pursue this goal, I say Go For It!

[grcav]

Quote Bits-n-Pieces:

[...] I also wonder if it would be worth changing the guidelines to allow one entry per user page, especially since the 'SPC" allows up to 4 or 5 entries per person. That way, no one would have to be concerned if they thought someone else was posting multiple entries from multiple pages. It could still be discouraged to vote for another photo of your own, but with the current number of entries, even if someone did choose to vote for themselves one or two more votes wouldn't make the difference. Most of us probably wouldn't want to post more than one (I know I wouldn't usually care to - too much of a hassle to keep track of things.) But it would leave the option open to those who have applicable entries on different pages.

I frequently find hard to decide on a single entry for the NPC and in the SPC in two occasions my second or third choice ended up doing better than my first choice , so from this point of view, the possibility of more entries per person would be welcome.

Yet there is a major difference between the SPC and the NPC: the SPC is in its infancy and only a handful of people take part*, so one entry per person would make it look as small as it is which might even lead even to a cancellation of the game as happened in the first try. The NPC on the other hand is already so popular that two entries per person would certainly push the number of photos in the competition to over 300 a month. In the past some participants were already pointing to the problem of too many entries for one to be able to actually evaluate all of them properly. This would only exacerbate this problem.

I don't have strong feelings about this, but am more in favour of one photo per person for the NPC.

Gil

*so, NPC people, if you want to win a game, you have better chances in the SPC, statistically speaking.

[grcav]

Hi 4ullas,

nice of you to ask our opinion . Firstly, since you are the only person working of those tables (and that seems like a lot of work) you should feel free to do whatever you feel is best. I'm sure that you would not do anything wrong anyway.

I agree with your proposal. While the NPC keeps on growing, the absolute number of votes of the latest games will completely dwarf the results of previous games and hence a count of the absolute number of votes would be biased towards the latest results. Your proposal of normalizing the final number of votes received to take into account that there are more votes kicking around makes sense.

If possible, I'd even go further and present another ranking according to the average of normalized number of votes every photographer. You already do this, in a way, since your table always includes the average of the photographers who appear there.

Of course ranking photographers by their average has the problem that the average of a person who did not play that many games may not reflect what would turn out to be their long term average... happens when taking averages of few measurements, so you might choose to leave people out of the table till they have 3 games or so under their belt.

Of course, this would only be possible if you already had the votes data readily available in a database, which I think may not be the case.

Anyway, another suggestion would be to present the data in a 1-year tally, e.g., now from jun/08 to may/09... So many possibilities...

Gil

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote grcav:

You just have to go and make everything complicated, don't you, Gil?