Monthly No Prize Contest (NPC): Comments (2/5)

[Administrator]

Continued from here

[BWS's ghost]

very interesting choice, bruno! please let me know if you need any help starting or moderating in november. cheers, brian

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Ok, I'll let you know if a help is needed but I don't think so, just now.
Sorry, I must go now...
See you, Bruno.

[Nawitka]

Good choice Bruno, I highly applaud you and your choice!
Ciao!
-- Nawitka

[fabrizio.reale]

Congratulations Bruno!!!

[4ullas]

Quote ©Daniela Brocca:

I like it. I think it will be very good at the end of the contest before closing and we can check if there are changes in the next months.Could also invite people of other countries that are among our favorites or we know about.

Hi Daniella, Bruno and anyother people reading and participating at this forum.

First of all, congratulations to Bruno for winning the October NPC and for choosing PEOPLE as the topic for the November Contest. I am anxious for entering my shot for the contest. Let me know I can help you.

As Daniella pointed out, it would be very important to make our contest wider geographically. At the moment, most of the entries come from Europe and America.

In order to change this trend ¡PLEASE, let's invite people from ASIA, AFRICA, OCEANIA and SOUTHERN AMERICA!

For sure everybody know good shot made by Native Photographers from those Continents, or by Euroamerican photographers.

Its is a good opportunity now for being in the TOP 3 NPC list from Africa, Asia and Oceania in the November Contest. Check the Lists from Continental TOP 3 of NPC at the October thread, page 14. There was only 1 from AFRICA and 2 from Oceania.

If you have a good shot taken in those Continents, please do not hesitate and enter it.

Best regards from **4Ullas**

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi everybody, first of all thanks again for your congrats to the picture and the compliments about my choice, I love this game and photography and I try to do the best that I can, this should be impossible without your support on posting and voting, and this is a good opportunity to invite the users all over the world from the five Continents, to enter a picture in this 2008 November NPC , especially those from Asia, Africa, Oceania and Southern America.
Well, dear NPC's contestant, tomorrow 1st November I'll have leaving for the day early in the morning and I'll be back late at night so now I'm going to open the NPC a little bit in advance, just few hours according with the rule about P.O.T. but please, enter your picture tomorrow 1st of Nov, if you can.
Thanks for understanding, a good contest to everybody.
Bruno.

[Daniela Brocca]

Thank you, Bruno.

[Keno Kawabata]

Quote 4ullas:

Hi Daniella, Bruno and anyother people reading and participating at this forum.

In order to change this trend ¡PLEASE, let's invite people from ASIA, AFRICA, OCEANIA and SOUTHERN AMERICA!

If you have a good shot taken in those Continents, please do not hesitate and enter it.

Best regards from **4Ullas**

Ok. I read the message, and I'll do it. I just uploaded some photos of people. Thanks for your invitation.

Best regards, Keno

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Quote:

Ok. I read the message, and I'll do it. I just uploaded some photos of people. Thanks for your invitation.

Hi Keno, this is Bruno.
I was in your pages and I've seen your people's pictures uploaded, it's ok but if you want to entry in the contest with one, only one photo, you must post that one in this topic:
http://www.panoramio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13344&start=15

Please read the rules that you can find in the first page of the topic or here:
http://www.panoramio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7655

You've got time to post your picture, remember only one, thru November 10th at 12.00 p.m P.O.T.

Please tag your picture 2008 November NPC

Thanks and have a good contest.

[4ullas]

Hi everybody:

Just an advance on the NPC participation so far 53 Entries from 5 Continents. Eur 27; North Ame 9; Asia 7; Cen & South Ame 6; Africa 2 & Oceania 2.

For comparing, here I give you data from previous months:

Nov 4 at 1;34 PM 53 Entries
Oct 6 at 6:34 AM 53 Entries
Sep 6 at 4:03 PM 53 Entries
Aug 6 at 1:00 PM 53 Entries

Conclusions:

This month we go two days in advance than the average of the last 3 months.

Accordingly, we can expect about 80 Entries for this month NPC. It will be a new record.

The Geographical distribution is improving as well.

Best regards from **4Ullas**

[Sergio Canobbio]

Thank you for your statistical efforts, 4ullas! It's very nice to have a look to such data!

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Dear friends, I read some comments about this subject mentioning my name, I know "people" maybe a hard choice and some users don't agree, but please post your comments about the contest here in this topic, maybe important for me to understand.
Thanks, best regards.
Bruno.

[4ullas]

Hi! Everybody:

At the moment, 7Nov 7:37PM, we have reached 72 entries for this month contest.

71 was the former record at the October contest.

Therefore: This NPC is a great success in terms of number of participants.
Consequently Bruno, don't worry about the topic PEOPLE.

At the same time the contest is becaming much more diverse in terms of Geographiical position of the entries. I will provide the figures in a next message.

Congratulation to every participant for such a great success.

Best regards from

4Ullas

[BWS's ghost]

hi bruno and 4ullas and everyone else entered in the NPC!

first, thanks to 4ullas for inviting many more participants to NPC this month, and for all the nice statistics. also thanks to bruno for selecting a very interesting and diverse subject. finally, thanks to all the prior and new entrants to NPC for joining in the fun!

"people" is a very popular and wide subject, so there will of course be a wide variety of photo types entered. we have silhouettes, crowds, stick-figure-for-scale shots, family shots, couples, waist-up portraits, face shots and even a few well-known people!

i think some participants (including me) were not sure whether bruno wished to limit entries to individual portraits - a face or full-figure. in fact, he had simply said "My preference goes to portraits or full figure." (boldface and italics added)

bruno, please correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that you wanted to see all kinds of "people" shots. i really don't think anyone is concerned about the choice of subject itself, other than that many of us "panoramians" are landscape photographers with few people in our shots

best wishes everyone,
brian

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Quote:

bruno, please correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that you wanted to see all kinds of "people" shots.

You're right, I want to see all kinds of people but not, as I wrote, hands or eyes or ears, I said "I want to see a face" but it's an idiom, I would like to see "A person".
I apologies for this misunderstanding because of my poor english but as I wrote once, It's enough for me to survive in this forum.
I hope it's clearer now.
Landscape phots... I know very well!
But, and this is not a question, where is the challenge without a hard subject?
Best regards to everybody...and tomorrow will be the 9th...!
Ciao Bruno.

[4ullas]

Hi every body:

At the moment, 8 November 8 pm, here we have the data for this month:

Number of Entries: 75 New Monthly Record and still we have 35 more hours till the deadline.


Geographical Distribution:

RANKING OF CONTINENTS

CONTINENTS Number Entries %

europe 31 41,3
N. america 14 18,7
asia 12 16,0
S.america 7 9,3
africa 5 6,7
Undefined 4 5,3
Oceania 2 2,7

Total 75 100,0


Google Earth Referenced
Yes 22 33%
No 53 66%


RANKING OF COUNTRIES

usa 12
Italy 10
Hungary 6
uk 5
Undefined 4
Spain 3
China 3
Canada 2
Holland 2
Mexico 2
india 2
France 1
Norway 1
Austria 1
Brasil 1
Argentina 1
Cuba 1
Tailand 1
Uzbekistan 1
Indonesia 1
tanzania 1
mozambique 1
mali 1
kenia 1
algeria 1
peru 1
pakistan 1
bolivia 1
guatemala 1
greece 1
Czeck Rep 1
australia 1
new zealand 1
japan 1
SriLanka 1



CONCLUSIONS and HILIGHTS

More participants
More diversity
Growth of participation from Africa, S.America and Asia
Poor participation from Oceania
No participation from Germany or Russia



Congratulations to every participants for these results and Thanks for their efforts.

Best regards from **4Ullas**

[purdey12345]

What's this all about?

[BWS's ghost]

hi purdey, just a misguided entrant. that post will be removed or changed by the entrant. i'll leave a comment in their photo area. cheers, brian

ps - we have till midnight on the 10th -> 11th to get in last-minute entries! 48 hours from 4ullas last post date/time, and about 28 hours from this post

[4ullas]

Hi Everybody:

Just breafly: At the moment 9 November 10pm we have the following data about entries:

82 entries (New Record)
from 30 countries (New Record) with the following Continental Dispersion:

CONTINENTS Number Entries %

europe 35 42,7
N. america 15 18,3
asia 14 17,1
S.america 7 8,5
africa 5 6,1
Undefined 4 4,9
Oceania 2 2,4

Total 82 100,0


Asia has about the same number than N.America
Africa and S. America have significantly increased, as well.
Eurpe and N.Ameria are about the same levels than previous contests.
Oenia i kept low in 2 entries.

Congratulations to all the participants

There are still 26 hours for last minute entries. It is expected that the final number of entries would be closed to 90 entries. This has to be considered in terms of number of entry voted per votant. Accordng to the rules will be 8 or 9, depending on the final figures. If 90 or more .........9 votes per voter
If less than 90.......... 8 votes pe votant

Best regards fom **4Ullas**

[Keno Kawabata]

Quote Brian W. Schaller:

please enter all your questions and comments about the monthly "no prize" contests in this forum topic. summaries of changes to the rules will also be posted here. cheers, brian

Since this is the first time to enter the NPC, I'm bit confused how I can vote and get voted. THX.

[Guido Musch]

Quote Keno Kawabata:

Since this is the first time to enter the NPC, I'm bit confused how I can vote and get voted. THX.

You can vote between the 11th and the 20th. So people can vote on your photo from tomorrow till the 20th of novembre

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi everybody, you're right Guido, those are the dates, but I please Keno and all other users and contestant to read at least once the rules at the top of the NPC topic, just here:

http://www.panoramio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13344&start=0

Well, two hours, and posting period will be over!
See you soon, good luck.
Bruno.

[BWS's ghost]

thanks bruno! if you like to sleep now i can start voting period for you - i'm in a better-positioned time zone

if so, what voting format do you want? numbers and names, names only, numbers only, some combination or anything goes? (not the last i hope!)

cheers, brian

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi Brian and thanks for your thought, I'm very well, within a hour I'll close the 1st period.
I'm thinking to suggest both forms, x,y,z and the usual form #x name.
Seems people like to give a name to a number.
What do you think about?

[BWS's ghost]

may be confusing to use both, and possible double counts if #'s are shown twice, as i think happened last month. my preference:

1,2,3,...
name1,name2,name3,...

looks a little odd, and a little more difficult to enter and read maybe, but much easier for spreadsheet counting purposes, and we still see our names and have a double-check without double counts!

cheers,
brian

ps - dinnertime for me, be back soon...

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

We can do it...
Have a good dinner, I have a glass of white and fresh wine...
Cheers.

[4ullas]

Hi everybody!

The time is over. Here you have the final figures about this month NPC:

89 participants (71 IN OCTOBER) from the following 36 states:

usa 14
Italy 11
Hungary 6
uk 5
France 5
Undefined 4
China 4
Spain 3

Canada 2
Holland 2
Mexico 2

india 3
romania 2

Norway 1
Austria 1
Brasil 1
Argentina 1
Cuba 1
Tailand 1
Uzbekistan 1
Indonesia 1
tanzania 1
mozambique 1
mali 1
kenia 1
algeria 1
peru 1
pakistan 1
bolivia 1
guatemala 1
greece 1
Czeck Rep 1
australia 1
new zealand 1
japan 1

vietnam 1
Germany 1
Lithuania 1
SriLanka 1

Total 36 COUNTRIES (NEW RECORD)

The distribution among continents is as follows:

CONTINENTS Number Entries %

europe 40 45,5
N. america 15 17,0
asia 15 15,9
S.america 7 8,0
africa 5 5,7
Undefined 4 4,5
Oceania 3 3,4

Total 89 100,0





THE GOOGLE EARTH REFERENCES are the following:

Google Earth %
Yes 24 27,3
No 64 72,7

Total 89 100



CONGRATULATION EVERYBODY FOR THE GROWING PARTICIPATON AND THE MORE DIVERSE GEOGRAPHICAL DISTRIBUTION OF THE ENTRIES

NOW BRUNO WILL OPEN THE VOTATION PERIOD: GOOD LUCK TO EVERYBODY from **4ULLAS**

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi 4ullas, they are 89...

[4ullas]

Hi Bruno: You are completly right. At the last minute a last entry has being included. I have corrected the final figures reediting my last message.

regards from 4ullas

[BWS's ghost]

Quote 4ullas:

...
usa 14
Canada 2
Mexico 2
Cuba 1
guatemala 1
...
N. america 15 17,0
...

hi 4ullas! thanks for all the stats. found an error in north america count:

14+2+2+1+1 = 15?

at least my world atlas says that canada, mexico, caribbean and central america are all part of north america, along with the usa

cheers, brian

[4ullas]

Quote Brian W. Schaller:

Hi Brian:

You are right but not fully right: Here are my reasons for my proposal of distribution:

1) I have included in N. America just Continental USA and Canada. So Hawaii Islands belong to USA but geographically are in OCEANIA.

2) The spanish and portuguese speaking countries are included into S. America, that could be better called Latin America.

I know that in strickly geographic terms, Mexico, Cuba and Guatemala are not considered part of S. America, but it is dificult culturally to join them with N. America. In the Spanish World Atlas, those countries are called Central America, and Northern America are just USA and Canada without including Central America.

Anyway, if there is a consensus for changing my proposal I am completly ready for do it.

Best regards from **4Ullas**

[BWS's ghost]

interesting... there are only 7 continents (well, we can forget antarctica, or should we? might be "penguins" subject someday...) but different definitions of what country is in each. what a crazy world we live in...

i really hope these extra stats don't start nationalistic or continental "wars" in NPC

probably just a "GE / not GE" breakdown is enough. the extra stats are interesting but i worry about how people might read them, or start reading them... ( or :evil

i did not know that the "usa" (however it is defined here) accounted for most entries until the stats appeared! i don't personally subscribe to the nationalistic-pride feelings of many people and just care for the photos and the photographers, not within which borders they happen to live, or take their photos...

just my opinions, not a fact for everyone, so please don't get mad at me, or think that i'm trying to change your minds about anything. it's great that many more people are entering - i just hope not for the wrong reasons.

cheers,
brian

[4ullas]

Hi Brian:

I would not give more importance to the continental distribution. It is just a way for paying attention toward parts of the world where there are less number of shots and for increasing the interest of native or non native photographers.

As far as the American subdivision, we can just forget it and join the whole America together. So I have done it right away.


CONTINENT ENTRIES %

Europe 40 45,5
America 23 25,0
Asia 15 16,9

africa 5 5,7
Undefined 4 4,5
Oceania 3 3,4

Total 89 100,0

Best regards **4Ullas**

[BWS's ghost]

thanks a lot for all your efforts, 4ullas!

looks like we need to invite some more americans (south, central and north) and a lot more asian, african and oceanian people next month to even the distribution.

this month in particular was interesting with the subject bringing so many different faces and clothing and street scenes. i wish we had more from other places.

i really wish i had made the rule about maximum votes = 20% of the total entries, instead of 10%! i had much trouble cutting back from about 24 favorites... to 8 sorry to the other 16...

cheers,
brian

[Keno Kawabata]

Quote ©B&W:

Thank you very much!! I think I got it. Since I'm about to go to bed, I'll work on it sometimes tomorrow.

Keno

[skida]

This has been a very good subject for the contest and there are lots of excellent entries. The voting is going to be very difficult, though. Somehow it seems harder to pick one over another with this subject. Well done evryone!

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi Skida, I hope it won't be so difficult, I'm counting all the votes by hand, paper and pencil, and someone else is surely doing it electronically as well.
Thanks for the compliments about my choice, happy for all those entries!
And thanks to all of you for trusting me.
Ciao Bruno.

[BWS's ghost]

hi bruno, i don't do an electronic count till the last hour, in case someone changes their vote (which is allowed by the rules), and so i'm not tempted to reveal any current leaders, and to make it a surprise for myself!

i'm sure someone else has done a count and already knows the leader(s) at the moment - it seems certain #'s/names are coming up a lot i'd personally rather not have anyone reveal the current leaders during voting.

the "paper and pencil" method will work well too, as long as NPC stays relatively small, but there's plenty of potential for growth.

cheers,
brian

ps - i've added italian, french and spanish translations (by google) to the APC entry topic if anyone's interested in inviting some people they know. we still need at least 7 more entries by the 20th, though that "deadline" could be extended! dutch, german and russian translations soon...

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi Brian, no problems to count them all, user by user including Joe Goodings, right now...I've got time!
And I know the temporary leader but I don't want to reveal.
Thanks for translations, I'll take a look...
Cheers...B

[4ullas]

Hi Bruno: I have to report you as moderator of this month Contest the following fact:

Yesterday I received the following message from the NPC November 2008 entry # 32 called Morrique in the shot number http://www.panoramio.com/photo/15485408 of my gallery.

© Morrique, yesterday, said: Hola 4ullas, perdona que utilice esta vía, pero en el foro del NPC November 2008 no puedo votar. De hecho no me deja acceder, Panoramio pide que me registre de nuevo. Tampoco puedo exponer el problema en ninguno de los foros por la misma razón. ¿tenéis alguna solución a esto? gracias y un saludo.

The translation into English of this message can be as follows:

Hi 4ullas, excuse me for using this way, but I can not vote at the NPC November 2008. In fact I can not get trought. Panoramio is asking me to register again. I can neither to explain my problem in any forum due to the same reasons. ¿Do you have any solution to this? Thanks and regards

I think this problem has to be solved in order to allow any Panoramio member to vote, especially those participants at the NPC of November. The final result must be cristal clear and free of any suspicion of censorship.

In order to get a faster solution to the problem I have reported to Panoramio asking them to solve it.

I am very sorry for the inconvenience and troubles this situation might produce at the Contest credibility but I can not help it. We all that like and enjoy this marvellous NPC must work for getting it stronger and reliable.

Best regards from **4Ullas**

[Jessica G.]

4ullas, I have that problem often when I try to access the forum to post, it tells me that I need to log in and won't let me through to the forum. Does it work for Morrique to delete all Panoramio cookies? That's the only way I've been able to solve it.

[BWS's ghost]

never had that problem myself. in such cases, the entrant could place votes in the photo comments of the moderator for the month (this month in bruno's [B&W's] photo) and they copy into the forum with explanation of whose votes they actually are.

how do you like that idea, bruno and morrique? cheers, brian

[4ullas]

Hi, Bruno, Brian and Jessica:

Thanks to the indications given by Jessica, Morrique has posted already his/her votes, so the problem is over.

I am very glad because that means the Contest results will be cristal clear without any suspicion of censorship.

Special thanks to Jessica and Brian. They both answer to the problem, and Jessica gave the solution.

Best regards from **4Ullas**

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Sorry guys, just back home...
As monthly moderator I have a very limited power, just a control on posting, comments and spam, open and close the periods and something else, not remove or delete posts or comments...
Besides I'm more more photographer than pc expert so I don't really know how to solve this problem, but I also see it is over now...phew!
I have had no problem myself and my italian friends as well, none of them.
Nevertheless I don't think that an electronic issue can make less cristal this contest, we have a lot of issues here everyday, what I must think about? Can we trust Panoramio again?
I don't think so, troubles comes and go and in a virtual world it seems to be normal, please have fun and enjoy this NPC...
Thanks everybody, and as usual, forgive my english.

[David Soler]

Hi, I just want to point out that there's an exciting fight for the first place of the contest between two users I won't reveal (score is 26 votes against 25 votes at the time of this post). There are still some days to vote and many users who can do it, so the suspense is sure until the end. Come on and vote panoramio users!

[Pierre-Jean Durieu]

Quote 4ullas:

Panoramio is asking me to register again.

Yes, it happens to me sometimes, Panoramio doesn't find its own cookie !!!

[4ullas]

Hi Everybody:

When we are crossing the half term of the November Contest it is more exciting than ever.

As David Soler said, there is a draw score at 27 votes among two entries.

As far as participation is concerned we have new records:

Here we have the figures of pages and replies at the Forum thread at the 15th day of the month:


Month , Pag at 15 , Replies at 15

March ,7, 93
April ,7, 100
May ,5, 72
June ,6, 82
July ,8 ,105
August ,8 ,116
September, 8 ,108
October ,8 ,121
November ,10, 149




Moreover, at 15th of November there are 11078 views a the NPC forum. You can realise the increment looking at the following list of total views:



Month , Views of Forum

March ,14377
April ,15703
May ,12936
June ,13628
July ,16359
August ,15185
September ,13683
October ,14669
November ,(11078 at half month)




Good luck to the participants in the final rush and best regards from **4Ullas**

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

As I wrote in the Game topic, thanks to Morrique for noticed this issue, we have a contestant who votes himself.

#42 Paulo Farina.

I asked to the moderators to remove his votes and picture, I don't like this.
He's got 3 votes currently, I please the two contestant who votes him to remove their votes.
They are:
Kovacs-Toka Anita
dbotez

Thanks. Job is calling me, see you later at night...in Italy.

[4ullas]

Hi Bruno:

I do not understand exactly which is your deccision on the Paulo Farina /Morrique affair. Could you explain it again?

You wrote,

The rule don't say that the votation will be invalid, it's easy, this is an official request to the moderators to remove Paulo Farina votes and it's picture too.
We like to play fairly, is it clear?
So please moderators, remove this post and Paulo Farina votes

Does it means that Paulo Farina is already out of the Contest? Please tell it clear and if so give a more consistent reason, because yourself said that "The rule don't say that the votation will be invalid¨. This reason is completly opposite to remove Paulo Farina from the contest.

For sure you know the consequences of your deccision especially difficult for the implications on your own entry final results. I would not like to be in your position. Therefore, if I have to moderate one Month the NPC, I will not participate with any entry, and I will ask to change the rules in that directionthe month NPC moderator will not participate with any entry at the month NPC.

Very sad and upset for this situation, but in any case best regards to everybody from **4Ullas**.

[purdey12345]

It seems harsh to exclude Paulo Farina from the contest completely. He probably voted for his own picture inadvertently because he didn't realise that he shouldn't have. The answer is simple: discount his vote for his own picture and leave everything else as it is.

Sembra duro escludere Paulo Farina dal concorso completamente. Probabilmente ha votato involontariamente per la sua propria immagine perché non ha non rend contoere che non dovrebbe avere. La risposta è semplice: sconti il suo voto per la sua propria immagine e lasci tutto per quanto sia altro.

[tashimelampo]

Also for me the answer is simple: discount his vote for his own picture and leave everything else as it is.
Credo che basti non contare il voto dato a se stesso!!!

[grcav]

Hi there,

firstly, most of us will agree that this is supposed to be a fun game and, in that light, if somebody with two votes cheats (knowingly or otherwise) and gets three votes instead of two, it is not really the end of the world... actually, it pretty much does not change anything.

Since he was caught he should at least change his vote, otherwise it should be fully disregarded. In general (i.e., for future cases) however, I find more appropriate that there should be some penalty associated with cheating. Otherwise there is nothing really stopping people from doing it. The message "you can always cheat and, if you get caught, all you have to do is fix it" seems far too lenient for me. What the penalty for cheating is should be discussed and I'm not sure we should apply it already this turn, as it would be a rule change/clarification half way through the game. I think removal of voting rights and/or fully disqualification from the contest are appropriate penalties for future cases.

That is my take

Gil

PS. Further remarks.
1) Using the number's only voting system makes it even harder than usual to spot self votes. Maybe we should bring back the names in future editions of the NPC, and use the two line format (numbers and then names) which some are using this turn
2) Interestingly enough, in this case, Paulo did write down the names of all the photographers for which he was voting, except for his own name. For his self vote, he preferred to refer to the photo title. That does make me think of foul play.
3) His self vote does not make a difference in the contest, however disregarding his whole vote may make a difference given that we have such a close fight for the first place... interesting no?

[Bits-n-Pieces]

It seems much simpler to just discard Paulo's vote for himself and leave his photo and his other votes. With all of the other complicating factors, it really seems to be creating quite a mess and a lot of hard feelings. By invalidating his entry, the ones who had voted for him are also losing their votes, etc.

But could I make a request that all of the long discussions about it be removed from the Voting page? That itself seems to be against the policy that the NPC page is only for photos and voting, and all comments go here.

[Jessica G.]

I also think it should be just Paulo's vote that should be disregarded. Has he participated in the Contest before? Does he realize that voting for your own picture is not allowed? Although Gil's point about the title is interesting. I think Paulo should be given the chance to change his vote - if he does not retract his self-vote by the end of the voting period, his picture and votes can be disqualified as Bruno was going to do.

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi everybody, just back home right now again...sorry but it's a hard job and it takes a lot of time especially in this period, saturday and sunday too...
Well, I read some post about that trouble, I think this is the first time it happens but it's normal, the number of contestant increases month by month and unfortunately a lot of them never read the rules, it's a pity...still...
I also think that my decision to disqualify Paulo Farina maybe excessive but I was so upset reading Morrique notice, moreover the interpretation I gave to his words was to invalid the FULL votation, and it was really too much!
Well, all misunderstanding seems to be clear now, my final decision is to REMOVE the vote he gave to himself, leaving all others as they are, but

PLEASE, EVERYBODY, CONTESTANT AND USERS...PAY ATTENTION TO THE RULES!

Many thanks to 4ullas, Jessica, purdey, tashimelampo, grcav, bits-n-pieces and all others maybe I've forgotten, for their kind help to understand and take the right decision.
Many thanks to Paulo Farina if next time take a little of his precious time to read the rules...just one time, please.
Many thanks to my mother who gave me this huge patience...
And now I please the moderator to remove all the post from the game pages, Thanks Daniela or someone else.
Bruno, monthly moderator...maybe for the last time!

PS, this trouble reminds me that I was for #number and name in the votation and not number only as Brian suggests, I'm sure as grcav wrote that it's harder make this kind of mistake with double posting.

[BWS's ghost]

so many words for such a simple thing... just don't count paulo's vote for himself as bruno has decided, and others have recommended.

actually, i noticed it even before morrique posted but did not say anything. i was testing you all a bit, especially bruno. just a friendly test, this must be very clear!

i hope paulo simply did not read the rules or was only testing us a bit and will change his vote very soon.

always remember to be kind and don't expect the worst, until proven otherwise...

cheers, brian

ps - no more rules, please! we may scare everyone away...

[Daniela Brocca]

Where is the great problem, I wonder. If Paulo Farina doesn't change his vote (only the vote for himself) in time it will be not counted. I deleted all the comments in the thread. Mod Daniela

[BWS's ghost]

hi daniela,

thanks for the all editing - it was getting messy over there!

we should still count paulo's other votes, unless he gives a reason why we should remove them all.

please remove the "advertisement" from the end of the NPC topic, if not already done by the user. i have notified that user inside their 1st photo's comments area on how to properly place a vote.

also, just noticed user "baiyunheitu" (#234062 who voted: 15 Nov 2008 12:15 pm, Joined: 11 Oct 2008 so is ineligible to vote this month. i let the user know in their comments area.

cheers and thanks again!
brian

[4ullas]

Hi Bruno, Brian an eveybody else:

1) Thanks Bruno for darifying your final decision: Quoting your last mesage "my final decision is to REMOVE the vote he gave to himself, leaving all others as they are".

If so, I completely agree and accept your decision, realising how difficult is the trouble. I suggest to include into the future month rules a line for clarfying this situation as the majoity of participants would decide: Invalidity, asking for reconsideration, or just disregarding their own vote.

2) Many thanks Brian for realising that a vote has been cast by a voter who was not registered at Panoramio one month earlier that the NPC start. In this case, I think there is no doubt about the decision: The rules are cristal clear, as the rule number 4 says:

"4. Posting a Vote: any Panoramio user with the exception of #4g below may vote by leaving a single posting in the contest forum topic using the same user account of their entry if an entrant, within the time frame of rule #1b.

a) list the entry numbers of the photographs for which you want to vote - for example: 2,5,12,33,50
b) total choices are limited: 5 if < 60 entries, 6 if < 70, 7 if < 80, 8 if < 90, 9 if < 100, and 10 if 100 or more
c) minimum number of votes: 5 no matter how many entries
d) you may only vote once for any one photo; any repeated entry numbers are ignored
e) you must change your original vote posting to change your vote
f) any postings after the first by any one user will be removed by moderators
g) non-contestants who wish to vote must be registered at least a month before the start of the contest and must have uploaded at least 10 photos
h) this is not a presidential election - you cannot vote for yourself! Not voting is preferable. "

Accodingly, I think that there is no room for discussion: The votation of
baiyunheitu, posted: 15 Nov 2008 12:15 pm must be declared INVALID because he was regsitered at PANORAMIO on 11 Oct 2008, less than 1 month earlier the November NPC started

It is clear that this decison is against my entry final score, but this is completely secondary: Fairplay is first.

Thanks everbody for your opinions that helped in solving the situation

Very happy because I verify the high level of transparency reached at the NPC and stil anxious and exicted for the uncentain final result, allways wishing everybody best regards and a pleasant sunday from **4Ullas**

[picsonthemove]

I'm sorry that I'm not able to count votes, because I'm leaving tomorrow for two weeks to places without internet

Ciao

picsonthemove

[bainketa]

Quote picsonthemove:

I'm sorry that I'm not able to count votes, because I'm leaving tomorrow for two weeks to places without internet

Ciao

picsonthemove

Lucky you!

Switch off, and have a nice time.

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Edit for shame.
Bruno.

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

"Hi Ngoc Vien, I think this is not the right way to play fairly in this contest that is a game or a challenge and have no prize, my own first rule is never ask a vote and I hope it should be the same for everybody. The second think I must say, as Moderator of this game, (that it's for fun, remember this), is to ask Pham Trung Duc to remove his comment on your picture in the votes pages, post what you want in the comment thread.
B&W"


I left this comment on Ngoc Vien pictures, I hope you'll agree.

[Bits-n-Pieces]

PHOTOGRAPHY NOT SPAM

While we are on the subject of unacceptably campaigning for votes, I have to express my total disgust at 4Ullas behavior on the photos of many of the entrants who have not yet voted.

This morning 4Ullas has been posting typically lengthy messages on the photos of MANY of the entrants who have not yet voted with a link to her photo and a request for a vote. I saw the following message on the photo of someone I talk with a lot, and going to 4Ullas page, saw many many many of the SPAM messages.

A copy from one person's page:

4ullas, 3 hours ago, said:

Hi XXXXX. I have looked and checked the votation at the NPC of November. You have still no voted. This is just a reminder.

If you have not decided yet, I am writing for suggesting you just to consider the possility of voting my entry:

Figure #1

Only in the case you like my shot, please include it in the ticket list of 5 (minimum) and 8 (maximun) favorites.

Many thanks in anycase for your attention from 4Ullas


This 'Competition' was started not as an ACTUAL competition, but as A GAME, and most especially as a way away from the revolting SPAM we are inundated with for the 'Official' contest.

I'll be using my votes this month, that's for sure. But after this month will have nothing more to do with this game that has been ruined by this nasty sense of competition that's developed.

It's too bad. Until recently this has been a very enjoyable way to see the photos of others and actually focus on PHOTOGRAPHY and NOT be a competition only in how much time one person has available to waste spamming others for votes.

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

I can't believe but it's true since I've seen this...

4ullas said:

Hi kristofino. I have looked at the votation of the NPC of November. You have still no voted. This is just a reminder.

If you have not decided yet, I am writing for suggesting you just to consider the possibility of voting my entry:

Figure #1

Only in the case you like my shot, please include it in the ticket list of 5 (minimum) and 8 (maximun) favorites.

Early news:
At 04.40 pm kristofino has voted #1
Now this votation is really invalid.

Many thanks in anycase for your attention from 4Ullas

This is the worst thing I've ever seen, and I wrote about his fair play, my God...what a mistake!
What can I say...it's hard to take a decision, I think is in 4ullas hands, it's really a shame...ask a vote!
I officially ask to the moderators to take responsability about this and I'm considering the possibility to leave this game too.
I've no more words to say, for the moment.
Very very sad, thanks Bits-n-Pieces.

Early news:
at 04.40 p.m. kristofino voted #1 4ullas.
No comment...

[Bits-n-Pieces]

And another coincidence?

This message to axiome:
by axiome - ID: 10123742

4ullas, 4 hours ago, said:
Hi Axiome. I have looked at the votation of the NPC of November. You have still no voted. This is just a reminder.

If you have not decided yet, I am writing for suggesting you just to consider the possibility of voting my entry:
Figure #1
Only in the case you like my shot, please include it in the ticket list of 5 (minimum) and 8 (maximun) favorites.

Many thanks in anycase for your attention from 4Ullas

and now in the voting thread:

axiome
Posted: 16 Nov 2008 04:35 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 08 May 2007 View user's posts
#1
#6
#21
#29
#34
#40
#47
#87

Everyone is free to vote for who they wish to, but the timing of these seems very much against the original spirit of the NPC.

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

IT'S TOTALLY AGAINST!
NO FAIR PLAY AT ALL! AND NO COINCIDENCE AT ALL!
THAT'S INCREDIBLE, HE WAS FIRST IN THIS NPC, NOW I CAN SAY THAT, HOW HE CAN DO IT!
I'M VERY UPSET.

[purdey12345]

The irony is that 4ullas was doing very well in the voting anyway! I think canvassing for votes is wrong in this sort of competition and, if #1 wins, it will be seen as a hollow victory which, I suspect, will be greeted with a deafening silence. Mind you, the technique doesn't always work. This entrant didn't vote as 4ullas would have wished.

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Edited by the author.

[Daniela Brocca]

It's not fair, it's against all what you want, but there is not a rule which said : it is forbidden to promote the submitted photo.
I see the rule it's indispensable. We will add the rule before next month. But please no tragedies.

[Bits-n-Pieces]

It's too bad that campaigning for votes that focused on only those with votes left that had not yet voted for one specific entry will be allowed to stand. Because unless the current direction changes, it looks like we very likely will end up with the wolf guarding the hen-house next month. A very sad state.

A reminder to all that votes can be editted until midnight GMT on 11-20, and so that the two votes for a shot I only entered on a lark won't be wasted, I'm withdrawing my entry, and will urge the 2 voters to edit their posts to include an entry that remains.

It's just so ironic, since this game started out being called
The No-Spam Contest !

[4ullas]

I apologize for the deleted comments

[purdey12345]

4Ullas, if you can't understand why your actions caused so much concern, even if they were not against the rules, then I feel a little sorry for you. If you win I hope you enjoy your victory; just don't expect me to be to first in line to congratulate you.

[MHiller]

Quote 4ullas:

2) I have read and re-read the NPC rules looking for any prohibition for exchanging messages between participants. There is no regulation whatsoever, and I have seen many crossed messages between participants including those who blame me for doing so.

This is not a paragraph for written rules, but simply a human thing.
I'll change my vote...

[skida]

My tuppence worth:

4ullas has been an active participant in the NPC for quite a while and has submitted some excellent shots. The extra information 4ullas has taken the time to collate and post here has been interesting and helpful. The promotion of the NPC to people around the world has helped to widen the user base.

What happened today was NOT against the rules but certainly against the spirit of the contest, especially with a lot of participants being disenchanted with the Official Prize Contest shenanigans. It was good to remind people to exercise their vote and NOT good to promote your own picture at the same time.

BUT............

The reaction of others in this thread, with accusations of cheating, were way out of proportion, when a "quiet word" in the comments box of 4ullas's photo would have been sufficient.

I suggest everyone should just calm down and think hard before posting anymore on this subject.

[skida]

ps: People should vote on the quality of the photos and vote changing for political reasons goes against the spirit of the contest too.

[4ullas]

I apologize for my deleted comments

[4ullas]

[4ullas]

Quote MHiller:

Many thanks MHiller for your vote, even if you finaly change it. I enjoyed during it last, thinking that a great photographer like you have found quality in my modest shot.

What has dissapointed to me is that other supposedly awfull reasons like asking for vote if they like the shot and blaming me of SPAMING and unfair play, HAVE CHANGED YOUR OPINION ABOUT THE SHOT. Was it good several days ago and now is awfull? What is this NPC about? I fight for PHOTOGRAPHY values and for TRANSPARENCY. I am against POLITICAL reasons for changing other people mind.

I am sorry, but the people who blame to me have gotten with you exactly what they have accused to me: They have changed your mind and your taste. At last. they have stollen your FREEDOM.

Please, excuse my very bad english, and if you keep liking my shot, keep voting it. If not I don't want your vote anymore.

In any case, I will keep admiring your great shots.

Best regards from **4Ullas**

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

"If you have not decided yet, I am writing for suggesting you just to consider the possibility of voting my entry:
Figure #1"

I'm sorry and sad, but I believe in what I see, and here I see a request of votes and someone of them votes for you after your request, it's enough for me to think you are unfair, as rightly MHiller said, this is human, not a paragraph of rules, this is your big mistake, turn around to catch some votes, my culture says before is the man, then the photographer or what you want.
You were talking about crossing comments, I can show this to you:

©B&W, Pubblicata 13 giorni fa, disse:

Thanks Guido, 4ullas, Eva, Brian, Diego...you're very kind, but I'm sorry...as monthly mod I feel I can't post a comment on yours. Thanks for your understanding. Bruno.

People will be my and your judge if I'm right or wrong.
Remember, this is HUMAN, you have to admit that was a bad thing.
Have you ever heard the word Ethical?
Now you know what it means.
This is my last comment, this is not tragical, only sad, but I stay at my place till the end.
Good votes to everybody, here in Italy night is coming and my bell rings at five.
goodnight, bruno.

[BWS's ghost]

Quote 4ullas:

...
If my messages are SPAMS, those very frequently sent by BRIAN W SCHALLER are SPAM as well. I do not think they are. He is continuosly sending mesages but no SPAM.

4ullas, please never include my name in all caps and joined with the word spam as i have never spammed in my life. of course, that's my opinion (i know you weren't trying to tie me to spamming, but it looks like it)

please note the major difference is, your messages include links to your photo and only your photo, and requesting (even just the possibility of) a vote for you and only you.

i know that such links are typical (but to me and others, offensive) in the "official" contest, but this is a simple contest among friends, and i hope it always remains that way. we may need a new "rule" otherwise and who really wants to make those any longer than they already are. no one, i hope.

a simple lesson to all - call it a personal "rule" of fair play if you like:
the only proper place to "cheer" for your entry is in your own entry's photo comments area. please don't canvass people from all over the contest and the rest of panoramio by linking them to a particular photo.

i accept your apology above and we go on from here.

cheers,
brian

[Guido Musch]

I think the new rule of Brian would be a good new rule. It's oke when you say don't forget to vote, but if you say vote for me, it's not oke! One rule is that the NPC isn't a presidential election, so making this much propaganda..

[Matthew Winn]

Quote 4ullas:

My messages aren’t any SPAM. I sent them manually, no by any automatic system (I just have a personal computer at home). THEY WERE NEVER IMPOSING ANYTHING. Please read them carefully and you will find any imposition at all (the messages are already in the forum).

Messages don't have to be automated to be spam. Simply repeating the same message unnecessarily makes a message spam. (On the forum where I'm a moderator we consider it spamming if someone advertises themselves just twice.) Spam started long before automated posting systems became available.

[Jessica G.]

I totally agree with skida here. 4Ullas has been a great help in this contest, keeping track of scoring, inviting people to join and watching over the entries. It's unfair to change your votes because you're unhappy with his actions.

But I also understand why Bruno, Kamaly and others are so upset. This contest was started as a fun alternative to the nasty competitive Official Contest. The NPC was meant to be a reprieve from the spam and vote-begging that have filled Panoramio since the Official Contest started. 4Ullas: "spam" isn't just automated advertisements sent out by an anonymous spam-bot. When you go around to people's pictures and suggest they vote for you in the NPC, that is spam and against the spirit of the contest.

I'm sure we all appreciate your work in the NPC so far, 4Ullas, and it's sad to see the fighting that's broken out because of your messages. I have voted for your picture and won't change it because of this. Anyway, hopefully this can all be resolved without too much hard feelings.

[4ullas]

I apologize the deleted comments

[4ullas]

I apologise for the deletd comments

[BWS's ghost]

thanks for your wise words everyone, especially those of our two teenagers in the NPC! both guido and jessica display more wisdom and common sense than the rest of us old people combined, and great photographic talent too! and thanks to matthew for more precisely defining what spam is. i would have done it but was a bit too lazy to find and copy/paste

4ullas, sorry to report that you are considered a spammer by most definitions as you sent multiple messages with links to your photo to several voters. it does not have to be automated - a simple copy/paste or even re-typing will do.

however, it's not "the end of the world", or NPC, and it did not appear to be a very effective, or even necessary, campaign so we can just disregard it ... this time
[at least, i disregard it, not sure about others who are leaving the contest because of this...]

i only expect that you and others never do that again, but have no punishment in mind, except that which i think you've caused to your own chances of having your photo get more votes... there are still 4 days of voting to go, without any spamming please, by anyone!

btw, NPC was started 1 month before the official contest and was not intended as an "antidote" to anything, though it's evolved into one. i'm happy to see it's survived this long. i truly didn't think it could. let's hope our little family squabbles don't tear it apart.

please, everyone who's "heading for the exits" or are already there, re-consider and come back! it's still fun and fair here, and better than the alternative. no, i don't mean any other contests, i mean watching TV!!!

cheers,
brian

ps - sorry bruno, but the waters were not so calm this month, but then again where's the adventure without a storm or two

[peargrin]

The only possible reward in this contest is an honest and unsolicited vote by a fellow photographer. It feels so nice to have someone you may not even have encountered before pick your photo. If you have gathered votes by campaigning, you'll have to wonder, in your heart, whether you admit it or not, whether your work is truly worthy, or if you're just good at public relations. You also know, in your heart, whether what you have done is honest, polite, fair, or just bad manners born of misplaced and misguided competitiveness.

It's the second month now that squabbles have broken out in the NPC of the three months I've participated. The first month was a lovely and relaxed experience, marked by cooperation, community and fun. I very much hope we can take a breath and find our way back to that.

[grcav]

Well, my view is rather simple. This contest is not even a year old and every so often we have people "crying foul play": nationality voting, single person submitting multiple photos, votes to a single entry, spam, self votes and now spam+advertisement are just some of the things we have experienced. This seems to just get bigger as the popularity of the contest increases (congrats Brian for cooking up such a popular thing!).

As we approach 100 contestants for the month, I think it is unavoidable to have people behaving as if winning/doing well was actually an important thing and the behaviour and words are escalating.

My way of thinking of the contest is just as an opportunity to share your photos with other people who share that interest. On the bright side, by putting your photo in the contest, it gets more views, more comments and more YSs than it would otherwise (at least that is the case for most of us). Hence it also gets better visibility in the world map and you get to share one of your preferred photos "better" with the world! And everybody wins!

On the negative side, if every so often we have to come here and argue about rule breaking (perceived or real), the annoyance part of the contest starts to compete with its photo-sharing benefits and to some of us it may just get the better of it.

After this month's problems I'm finally becoming in favour on Brian's APC. If I did not enter it yet, I may enter in the future.

I offer no solution to the current problem as it seems to be within human nature, though once again the APC may give a step towards a proper solution: there at least people who cheat have to do it hidden, so it does not bother the other players!

But I'm no master of creating games and all I can offer is a tongue-in-cheek solution (and I'm really in favour of this one).

Brian should change the one rule which causes all the problems, namely, rule number 9. It should be changed from
"9. Prize: nothing in the material world; however, a great feeling of elation at having a favorite photo liked by so many fellow photographers!
to
9. Prize: nothing in the material world; however, a great feeling of elation at
a) being liked by so many fellow photographers and/or
b) being so good at cheating without people noticing and/or
c) having such a powerful advertisement and entrepreneurial spirit and/or
d) being from a very popular country and/or
e) maybe even having a favorite photo liked by so many fellow photographers and/or
f) in general doing so well what you do so well.

I urge Brian to really consider this change to the rules.

Gil

[4ullas]

I deleted this previous message as a symbol of my recognition to Bruno.

[BWS's ghost]

hi peargrin and gil!

i agree with your comments and am happy to see at least gil and about 5 other people like the ideas of APC! thanks, gil, for being so vague about entering, or not! [please note: i didn't mention it first since this issue came up and "grcav" is not an alter-ego of mine ]

let this be very clear: i did not create APC to compete with NPC. it's just a fun experiment in seeing how well-behaved a contest can possibly be, though still not perfect. i think it could become a really fun extra challenge for all of us.

no rule changes are necessary, but some "clarifications" may be in order, not quite so detailed as gil humorously suggests

cheers, brian

[Bits-n-Pieces]

I'll start by saying I'm laughing as I write this:

Let me get this straight: I reiterate the rule that allows people to edit their votes, didn't give any photo #s to be voted on instead.

But 4Ullas searches out people who haven't yet voted, and those who haven't used all their votes and none of the votes they did cast were for #1, leaves invitations to vote for his/her shot, with a convenient link and the photo number (and conveniently does NOT contact those who haven't used all the votes but DID vote for #1. No concern about them using all their votes. how sad.)

And I'm in the wrong for saying it's possible to edit votes, and it's 4Ullas who is being wronged here?

I'll edit my post to stress the 2 people who voted for #50 should edit to change to an entry that remains in the game. Since an entry isn't required for voting, I'll be leaving my votes. And I hope the winner feels lot of satisfaction in the victory this month.

It's sad there can't just be a friendly little competition based on photography where we can escape all of the self-campaigning we're subject to because of the 'Official' contest. This is a site and a thread that's just supposed to be fun, and with all the spam and self-campaigning, compiling statistics on where all the photos were taken, were the photographers are based, etc. etc., its just no fun at all. That's too much like work.

I'm sure there'll be a page-long rebuttal ignoring again all the messages of those who are really unhappy with the campaigning for votes, and making more accusations that we're all un-happy out of jealousy, but just as advance: this will be the last post of mine to the thread, so I won't be further responding to any of it and extending the controversy any further.

[hs238]

Quote Bits-n-Pieces:

Precisely why I withdrew last month and will never enter this competition again Too many rules and Too many police for it to ever be a really friendly competition, EVEY ONE takes it much too seriously it is JUST A GAME your life or even your livelihood do not depend upon the results!
LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE WHO CARES!!!!

[4ullas]

I apologise for the deleted comments

[skida]

All these accusations of cheating are killing the competition and I have now decided that I will no longer be participating in future competitions. The whole thing has become very petty. Bye folks.

[BWS's ghost]

hi everyone,

i hate to leave another message, but it seems necessary to try to close all these recent issues.

so, please let me take a little charge at this point and do the following:

1 - add a rule clarification more precisely spelling out what is meant by this not being a "presidential election" and not voting for yourself and that only that part of your vote doesn't count, which was my intention for that rule

2 - define right at the top what is meant by this being a No Prize Contest - no fighting for no prize (it is only a virtual award, a congrats or two, and picking the subject next month. the moderator does not have the ability to do anything they want with the rules, like wide interpretations or changes/additions - that was never my intention. they should only moderate and enforce the rules as they stand. and, it is not in the "rules" [nor has it ever been] that the winner is automatically the moderator for the month when they start the NPC, but that's the way it's been going)

3 - new rule defining what the majority of people on panoramio consider spamming, and what will happen to your entry if you do it. removal of your entry from the contest results that month, or a simple withdrawal of your own entry (as many people are unfortunately doing right now for various reasons ...)

i had thought that all those things were clear without additional clarification, but i've been proven wrong on all 3 counts and now this month's NPC seems beyond repair for many "people" ironically.

cheers,
brian

[4ullas]

Quote Brian W. Schaller:

Hi Brian:

I could not agree more. Let's do it.


Hi Skida:

I am very sorry about your decision.
I did not start the accusations and condemnation without trial.
I have apologised my self many times and I did not receive any excuse till now, just hard words from the moderator.

Anyway, in order to preserve what all of us like the most. I mean NPC, I will not post any further message on this topic, unless somebody blame me again.

Best regards for everybody from **4Ullas**

antin

[grcav]

Quote hs238:

Precisely why I withdrew last month and will never enter this competition again Too many rules and Too many police for it to ever be a really friendly competition, EVEY ONE takes it much too seriously it is JUST A GAME your life or even your livelihood do not depend upon the results!
LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE WHO CARES!!!!

Hi HS,

it seems that to appreciate the contest to the full, you have to think of it as a soap-opera where you are one of the actors and then behave as such

Gil

[BWS's ghost]

soap opera? good comparison, gil. actually, i only started NPC as a study in human nature, and it's paying off in spades! i now plan to write my phd thesis just on the basis of NPC alone i think i may win an award or something...
i don't think i'll get much good material out of APC, but we'll see...

[please read all the above very humorously]