Gravel Grinding - non-programmer needs help creating a customized routing profile

[RobertR]

Hello,

I would like to setup a new customized profile created specifically for a project I'm working on - creating long distance gravel grinding cycling routes in Europe.

However, I have no programming experience or knowledge. Is there someone that can help set this up and help me adjust and optimize over time?

I look forward to hearing your suggestions, recommendations, contacts etc.

Thanks!

[poutnik]

Hi Robert,

Somebody can be found, but would need to know little more about the project and the profile requirements.

But in the beginning check if something ready to use is already present at http://github.com/poutnikl/Brouter-profiles/wiki

28. září 2016 11:22:08 CEST, RobertR <robert.b...@gmail.com> napsal:

--
Sent from my phone via Android email client K-9.
Please, forgive my brevity.

[Robert Reimann]

Hi,

thanks for your answer. I took a look at the profiles on the wiki page and of course the customization possibilities are amazing, this program will solve so many 'problems' (better said, provides so much value) to me and I'm sure others. 

I am glad to explain more about my project - I will develop a network of long distance 'gravel grinding' routes that connect major European destinations and provide 'gravel grinders' and 'bikepackers' with a wonderful way to travel and experience Europe. The elements that make up good gravel routes are unpaved roads that are not too technical (i.e. not 'singletrack'). If no gravel road or path is available, then a bike path or small public road is preferred. Finding the right type of road surface that leads to the destinations is more important than the most direct route. From my experience, local bike routes are preferred over long distance bike paths.

Thus far, I've used the standard 'trekking' profile to create gravel routes between destinations. This works well and I'm able to drag the calculated route manually to include more unpaved routes than the program calculated. But the trekking profile still takes me onto too many paved roads and bike paths.

I am sure that if I had the chance to experiment and adjust the various preferences, flags, numeric parameters etc., I will be able to find the ideal profile for this project's purposes. The problem is I lack the technical know-how to do this. Is it possible to get some assistance on 'editing' the profiles and using the program more efficiently? I am located in Dresden, Germany (I am an American and speak German fluently as well) and would be glad to travel to Germany, the Czech Republic or elsewhere to meet with BBRouter experts as well.

Thanks again and I look forward to hearing from you.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "OSM Android bikerouting" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/osm-android-bikerouting/mxhIBYdABsI/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to osm-android-bikerouting+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Poutnik]

Hi Robert,

Experimenting and testing of tuned profiles is in fact very easy, and need not special programming or IT skills.
The profiles are normal plain text files and their basic tuning is done by simple editing of few logical or numeric values.
You can take this template of  my Trekking profile

You can for the beginning tweak the  numeric parameters MTB_factor and smallpaved_factor
The former tilts prefereces toward unpaved and smaller  Openstreetmap ways ( or the opposite if negative )
Values < 1.5 are near to Fastbike profile for road bikes.
Value > 1.5 are near to be a profile for MTB.
The latter prefers small and paved roads, for convenient long distance trekking. ( or opposite if negative )
Both parameter can be combined.

Tweaked profile you can test at BRouter web front-end

Fine tuning can be done by few other parameters, especially wrt marked cycleroutes.
If not enough, I can offer some custom tweaks.

BTW, by bike path, do you mean  cycleroute ( marking ) or cycleway (dedicated communication)  ?

Dne 30/09/2016 v 07:21 Robert Reimann napsal(a):

Hi,

thanks for your answer. I took a look at the profiles on the wiki page and of course the customization possibilities are amazing, this program will solve so many 'problems' (better said, provides so much value) to me and I'm sure others. 

I am glad to explain more about my project - I will develop a network of long distance 'gravel grinding' routes that connect major European destinations and provide 'gravel grinders' and 'bikepackers' with a wonderful way to travel and experience Europe. The elements that make up good gravel routes are unpaved roads that are not too technical (i.e. not 'singletrack'). If no gravel road or path is available, then a bike path or small public road is preferred. Finding the right type of road surface that leads to the destinations is more important than the most direct route. From my experience, local bike routes are preferred over long distance bike paths.

Thus far, I've used the standard 'trekking' profile to create gravel routes between destinations. This works well and I'm able to drag the calculated route manually to include more unpaved routes than the program calculated. But the trekking profile still takes me onto too many paved roads and bike paths.

I am sure that if I had the chance to experiment and adjust the various preferences, flags, numeric parameters etc., I will be able to find the ideal profile for this project's purposes. The problem is I lack the technical know-how to do this. Is it possible to get some assistance on 'editing' the profiles and using the program more efficiently? I am located in Dresden, Germany (I am an American and speak German fluently as well) and would be glad to travel to Germany, the Czech Republic or elsewhere to meet with BBRouter experts as well.

Thanks again and I look forward to hearing from you.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Wanderer )

My Brouter profiles 
https://github.com/poutnikl/Brouter-profiles/wiki

[Arndt Brenschede]

On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 7:21:05 AM UTC+2, RobertR wrote:

 

Thus far, I've used the standard 'trekking' profile to create gravel routes between destinations. This works well and I'm able to drag the calculated route manually to include more unpaved routes than the program calculated. But the trekking profile still takes me onto too many paved roads and bike paths.

Then, as a very simple approach, try a small variation of trekking to express what you are looking for. To do that, define a criterium that identity the ways that you think are good for your purpose, like that:

assign gravelsurface = surface=fine_gravel|gravel|compacted|dirt

assign goodforgrinding =
  if ( highway=track|road|service|tertiary|unclassified ) then
  (
    if      ( tracktype=       ) then ( gravelsurface             )
    else if ( tracktype=grade1 ) then ( gravelsurface             )
    else if ( tracktype=grade2 ) then ( or surface= gravelsurface )
    else false
  )
  else false

And then insert a penalty in the costfactor expression that pushes up all ways that do not match this criterium, just before the line commented with "apply oneway-and access-penalties":

 add if goodforgrinding then 0.0 else 0.3

However, I think at least in germany, you will find mainly forest-ways meeting your expecations. Long-distance gravel roads for car traffic, as known from the US, do not exist in germany.

[Poutnik]

Errata>  Values <  -1.5 are near to Fastbike profile for road bikes.

Dne 30/09/2016 v 11:18 Poutnik napsal(a):

.......

You can for the beginning tweak the  numeric parameters MTB_factor and smallpaved_factor
The former tilts prefereces toward unpaved and smaller  Openstreetmap ways ( or the opposite if negative )
Values < 1.5 are near to Fastbike profile for road bikes.
Value > 1.5 are near to be a profile for MTB.

......

[Poutnik]

I like the Arndt suggestion, as for tweaking for special requirements,
it may be easier and more straightforward
to just take the Trekking profiles and making few taylorings, focused on
major priorities.
You may try both ways for testing.

I have not mentioned it as it did not come to the mind at time,
not because of my work promotion. :-)

And as Arndt says, gravel grinders can have difficult time to find a job
in many EU countries.
OTOH, Norway has alot of very nice compacted ways.

[Robert Reimann]

thanks for the suggestions, I will get to work on this and will try to get some testing underways.

yes, gravel grinding here is different than the roads in the US, like you said, more forest paths, unpaved bike paths, including public roads that are unpaved. The combination of gravel and European cities & towns is what think make these types of routes so unique and fun to ride. Germany is ideal for this since you can often ride on paths through privately owned properties and the network of paths & trails as well, so I'll start there, almost (Prague-Dresden-Berlin).

ᐧ

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "OSM Android bikerouting" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/osm-android-bikerouting/mxhIBYdABsI/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to osm-android-bikerouting+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Robert Reimann

Founder & CEO

BikeSherpa Corp.
rob...@bikesherpa.com

http://bikesherpa.com/

Mobile: 49 (0)176 313 81 924

Tel (US): 646 403 4432

Tel (Europe): 49 (0)351 26 31 740
Fax: 49 (0)351 26 31 907
Note: only dial the 0 when calling within Germany
BikeSherpa
Hofmannstrasse 33
01277 Dresden
Germany

[Robert Reimann]

thanks for the suggestions, I will get to work on this and will try to get some testing underways.

yes, gravel grinding here is different than the roads in the US, like you said, more forest paths, unpaved bike paths, including public roads that are unpaved. The combination of gravel and European cities & towns is what think make these types of routes so unique and fun to ride. Germany is ideal for this since you can often ride on paths through privately owned properties and the network of paths & trails as well, so I'll start there, almost (Prague-Dresden-Berlin).

ᐧ

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Poutnik <poutni...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "OSM Android bikerouting" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/osm-android-bikerouting/mxhIBYdABsI/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to osm-android-bikerouting+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Poutnik]

Robert may need to use
    assign ignore_cycleroutes true
or tweak cycleroute management.

Otherwise non gravelsurface track-like CR would have CF 1.3,
but                   gravelsurface track-like non CR would have CF 2.0 of worse.

  else if ( highway=track|road|path|footway ) then
  (
    if      ( tracktype=grade1 ) then ( if probablyGood then 1.0 else 1.3 )
    else if ( tracktype=grade2 ) then ( if probablyGood then 1.1 else 2.0 )
    else if ( tracktype=grade3 ) then ( if probablyGood then 1.5 else 3.0 )
    else if ( tracktype=grade4 ) then ( if probablyGood then 2.0 else 5.0 )
    else if ( tracktype=grade5 ) then ( if probablyGood then 3.0 else 5.0 )
    else                              ( if probablyGood then 1.0 else 5.0 )
  )

Dne 30/09/2016 v 11:25 'Arndt Brenschede' via OSM Android bikerouting napsal(a):

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OSM Android bikerouting" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to osm-android-biker...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Robert Reimann]

Ok, thanks. I am traveling until Oct 14th and will get started when I get back. I'm looking forward to it!

ᐧ

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to osm-android-bikerouting+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Wanderer )

My Brouter profiles 
https://github.com/poutnikl/Brouter-profiles/wiki

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "OSM Android bikerouting" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/osm-android-bikerouting/mxhIBYdABsI/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to osm-android-bikerouting+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

[kristianm...@gmail.com]

Have you ever found a solution to use for this? I am not a programmer and have been looking for a way to use brouter and locus to pick primarily gravel/dirt/unpaved roads to route me for adventure motorcycle rides. I like to stay off the pavement as much as possible and have not found a way to set a profile to do that as of yet in locus/brouter and definitely not in google maps.

Kris

[poutnik]

hi, I have not been paying attention to it for some time..
It a new and surprising information for me it is targeted for motorbikes. It was not mentioned or I and Arndt have missed it, considering bike profiles.
It is not a big problem to create such a profile, but it would be a problem for the profile to find desired surfaces. As there is not much roads permitted for bikes and being unpaved at the same time.

It would be better to use a car profile as starting point.

It would be good if you defined by frwe form a particular quantitative priorities
For particular road types and surface.
E.g. If you set gravel track is 1.0
And a primary paved road as 3.0,
It means for profile
1km of the primary is as good
as 3 km of the gravel track.
Optimum is 1.0 , the bigger the worse.
I need your cooperation here, to avoid creating anything you would not like.

8. listopadu 2016 2:33:16 CET, kristianm...@gmail.com napsal:

Have you ever found a solution to use for this? I am not a programmer and have been looking for a way to use brouter and locus to pick primarily gravel/dirt/unpaved roads to route me for adventure motorcycle rides. I like to stay off the pavement as much as possible and have not found a way to set a profile to do that as of yet in locus/brouter and definitely not in google maps.

Kris

[poutnik]

Hi Kristian,
You have confused me by jumping into a thread with related yet different topic. It is better to keep it in different thread.

Sure, it is possible, just tell the profile to do so. Syntax is not that difficult.

If you want others to do it for you, you will have to be much more specific, as there is many quantitative decisions to do.

As they would not like to create profile you would not like.


https://github.com/poutnikl/Brouter-profiles/wiki

9. listopadu 2016 23:09:57 CET, Kristian Matthews <kristianm...@gmail.com> napsal:

I am in the USA and here there are hundreds of thousands of miles of dirt roads for riding motorcycles legally. I just have not found a way to get google maps or locus with brouter to pick primarily dirt. There are options to pick avoid dirt, but not the opposite.

I would like it to identify gravel/dirt as the primary route, with paved roads as secondary.

Does this sound like something that is possible?

An adventure motorcycle routing profile?

I ride a 2016 BMW R1200GS Adventure.

Kris

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "OSM Android bikerouting" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/osm-android-bikerouting/mxhIBYdABsI/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to osm-android-bikerouting+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Poutnik]

*How much* would you like to prefer gravel/dirt roads to paved ones ?

If a paved road is 10 km long, what would be a threshold length
for a gravel/dirt to reconsider the choice ?

Do you wish to make more distinguishing for particular surfaces ?

What would be the preferred similar decision
for OSM road classes, regardless of surface ?

( like motorways / trunks / primary /secondary / tertiary /
unclassified / service / residental / track )

Example:
unclassified road would be chosen as best
10 km of primary as good as 25 km of unclassified
10 km of secondary as good as 20 km of unclassified
10 km of track ( supposed vehicles are allowed )
as good as 15 km of unclassified
etc

What is supposed the *default* surface for particular road type as
above, if no explicit surface quality is specified in map data ?

As this is very country/region specific.

On 11/09/2016 11:09 PM, Kristian Matthews wrote:
> I am in the USA and here there are hundreds of thousands of miles of
> dirt roads for riding motorcycles legally. I just have not found a way
> to get google maps or locus with brouter to pick primarily dirt. There
> are options to pick avoid dirt, but not the opposite.
>
> I would like it to identify gravel/dirt as the primary route, with paved
> roads as secondary.
>
> Does this sound like something that is possible?
> An adventure motorcycle routing profile?
> I ride a 2016 BMW R1200GS Adventure.
>
> Kris
>
> On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 12:09 AM, poutnik <poutni...@gmail.com

> <mailto:poutni...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> hi, I have not been paying attention to it for some time..
> It a new and surprising information for me it is targeted for
> motorbikes. It was not mentioned or I and Arndt have missed it,
> considering bike profiles.
> It is not a big problem to create such a profile, but it would be a
> problem for the profile to find desired surfaces. As there is not
> much roads permitted for bikes and being unpaved at the same time.
>
> It would be better to use a car profile as starting point.
>
> It would be good if you defined by frwe form a particular
> quantitative priorities
> For particular road types and surface.
> E.g. If you set gravel track is 1.0
> And a primary paved road as 3.0,
> It means for profile
> 1km of the primary is as good
> as 3 km of the gravel track.
> Optimum is 1.0 , the bigger the worse.
> I need your cooperation here, to avoid creating anything you would
> not like.
>
>
>
>
>
> 8. listopadu 2016 2:33:16 CET, kristianm...@gmail.com

> <mailto:kristianm...@gmail.com> napsal:

>
> Have you ever found a solution to use for this? I am not a programmer and have been looking for a way to use brouter and locus to pick primarily gravel/dirt/unpaved roads to route me for adventure motorcycle rides. I like to stay off the pavement as much as possible and have not found a way to set a profile to do that as of yet in locus/brouter and definitely not in google maps.
>
> Kris
>
>
> --
> Sent from my phone via Android email client K-9.
> Please, forgive my brevity.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in
> the Google Groups "OSM Android bikerouting" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/osm-android-bikerouting/mxhIBYdABsI/unsubscribe

> <https://groups.google.com/d/topic/osm-android-bikerouting/mxhIBYdABsI/unsubscribe>.

> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to

> osm-android-biker...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:osm-android-biker...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout

> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
>