Migrating Chinese SMT460 machine to OpenPnP (44 Yamaha Feeders, 4 Juki Nozzles, 6 Vision Cameras)

[Cyril]

Hello Everybody,

I am just starting to work on that project.

I have brand new machine from China, but I am totally disappointed by the quality of the bundled control software.

It is not properly translated in English, and there are many bugs and lacking features.

Machine connects via Serial (USB VCP) to the host computer, and has one HiRes-3MP USB3 camera

and the other 5 analog cameras are captured via 8port frame-grabber card.

The serial protocol is not a text G-code like, but binary. Most of the commands are 7 byte longs frames., responses and status readings are in the similar way..

I have successfully eavesdropped on that communication and now I have all the possible commands to control most of the hardware.

The 44 feeders (Yamaha  CL type) are controlled with pneumatic valves, there are 4 valves for suction/exhaust to control nozzles and Venturi pipes.

Machine does have various auxiliary  outputs and inputs such as 8 PWM controlled Led Light Sources, 3 colored Alarm Light, Buzzer, Home position sensor,

and few control knobs... All these are controlled via the same Serial channel together with servo positioning for the head, and separate drop/lift and angle rotation for the four nozzles. Mark camera is mounted behind the nozzles, and the HiRes camera, and 4 HiSpeed cameras  are stationary next to feeders.

Anyone having experience in writing custom hardware driver for OpenPnP, or a Gcode translating to 3rd party protocols?

I am still considering the best approach, please give me feedback, ideas, recommendations.

If someone owns the same or similar machine (TVM920, Neoden 4) and converted to OpenPnP, please share experience.

Regards

/Cyril/

[Marek T.]

Hi Cyril,
I can't help you but have question. What is disappointing you except gui translation, what lacks? I've planned to buy their similiar SMT560 machine but resigned due to missing conveyor mainly (Neoden has this as option but it's the toy machine for me). Decided to retrofit my old machines. But it's challenge and sometimes I was thinking that maybe it was mistake, maybe should take this 560. How about the accuracy, precision and speed? And solid of construction?

[Eagle Media]

What exactly do You think is toy like on the neoden 4?

[Marek T.]

Neoden 4:
- is very lightweight. SMT machine should have solid and heavy frame, to avoid any vibrations etc. 80kgs is nothing. SMT460 has ~250kgs.
- uses their own feeders with many plastic parts. The feeders are grouped in banks and you can't take off one feeder when needed - don't like this solution. Buying CHinese machine you never know when factory disappear, so better buy machine using widely used feeders (Yamaha CL copies are optimal solution and few factories produce it).
- upper lids (covers) opened at left-right sides instead of front-rear. When you put machine in-line to another the access to the inside is really not good.
- not too much place to put the trays.
SMT460 or a bit bigger SMT-560 model is much more better solution as for me, and cheaper. But remeber I'm telling only about visual side of the construction, I don't know precission of 460/560 - maybe it's total shit while Neoden maybe is perfect,  don't know this and ask Cyril that's why. I'm only telling that I'd not buy Neoden looking on his construction only.

And Neoden-China doesn't want sell it to Europe since esablished distributor in Netherland. Price in China is much lower than here in Europe even looking on costs of shipmentCN-EU. I got the price of naked machine from China $6500, in Europe it's ~€8145. But you have local support, maybe some spare parts if needed.

[Cyril]

Hi, the SMT460's hardware seems to be well built, it has a solid frame, thick aluminum base plate, two fast and powerful Leisai motors 

coupled to Leadshine's DM882 servo controllers, 4 Juki nozzle's and rotators, 4 linear drive Z axis actuators... 6 cameras in total, 

4 hi-speed parallel orientation of small parts sourced from the 44 Yamaha CL feeders, 1 HiRes 5mp camera for BGA/QFN,LQFP... 

for orientation parts from sucked from trays... and one upper mark camera...  Machine is moving smoothly, no vibrations and reactive shakes,

valves for feeders are not noisy, vacuum switches are almost silent. So far nothing too bad, but the bundled

software is total disaster, not only for the non-translated gui, it is not working with International Windows at all.

Seems strange, and I had a long dispute with the factory about that, but the software is not appearing properly

when installed in any english or international windows system. It does work fine, only with the Chinese version of Windows 7 Utlimate.

Application's main window (it's only one view in fact) works at fixed 1280x1024 resolution, software is pure .NET (shit), 

and they have compiled and used only fully Chinese windows, everything appears normal. But when other system is used,

software's text labels and buttons appear misaligned, and Screen is somehow over-scanned, so you can't reach and see about 

1/4 of the window, which is bellow the screen's bottom. There are no-scroll bars, and screen can't be maximized/minimized. 

However resolution was correct, but there is difference in the graphical kern of text letters between Chinese and other languages, and software is using non-native fonts, taken as external resource when host's locale is Chinese. This is very annoying problem, despite the fact that 4/5 of the text is still non translated.

That's only salt... and there is a jar full of pepper. The importing of any PnP file is almost impossible, the supported format is only XML

(which is their internal format for storage configuration, feeder setup, and placement coordinates). So called importer can read

tab separated text file as centroid data, but it is total mess how to use it lately. Many Chinese message windows are popping, nothing

good is happening... The only way to use the machine is to manually teach the locations of components and select feeders, and the

nozzle's usage order you have to decide yourself. Panelization support is fake, you can select matrix dimension and offsets, but no way to optically find

and use fiducials, you have to use two mark points manually entered in locations list.  There tons of other problems, if anyone is interested

I can share in PM, or write separate topic for that.

The outcome is that the machine is usable only for high volume production of the same board/panel, without any flexibility

to quickly change the products. I like OpenPnP, and I am seriously working on porting that machine to it. So far I have

added additional driver in the machine setup menu, which is targeting that machine, and simple operation and jogging are 

already a fact. There are many parameters for vision and speed limitation, feeder/vacuum switching which must be implemented. And

I have to change cameras with USB type, I will keep you updated, if anyone interested in the progress I am ready to share.

Regards

/Cyril/

[Marek T.]

Hi!
When I was thinking to buy this machine, mainly I was worried about the mechanical quality of this machine (and see it's good). I haven't expected so big shit about the soft as you say at all...
As there is Ultimate version of W7 you can download and add other language packet instead of replacement whole the system. You will stay then with every libraries, fonts etc added by Chineses. Chinese WIN version doesn't allow for this?? Understand it's not final solution for you but maybe temporary useful until you migrate to Openpnp.
As I know, Openpnp doesn't support multicameras for bottom vision on the moment. You can add there more than one bottom cameras but the soft cannot "read" and analyze 4 cameras simultaneously as you have it now. Maybe I'm wrong but don't think, you will get sure information about this from CriS or Jason very soon I think :-). Don't know if they plan to add that functionality in future.
Girl who sells SMT460 (Jim Jiang) and Wenzhou YingXing Technology isn't the real factory. You can find on YouTube that they sold few different machine under the same name. Manufacturer one of them was Boreytech from Beijing. You can try to contact to them and try get some more serious help than from Wenzhou. However it's not 100% that they took your machine from Borey.

[Jason von Nieda]

Multi bottom vision camera support is something I've wanted to add for a while, but I haven't had the hardware to support it. Niels is now making incredible progress with the new capture library, so soon it will be MUCH easier to support multiple cameras without all the USB problems. At that point it will be reasonable to add support for multi bottom vision cameras. 

So, I won't say it's coming soon, but it's on the roadmap.

Jason

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[Arthur Wolf]

Jason : about many cameras without USB. Does OpenPNP currently supports getting the images from an URL instead of USB ? If so I think it'd work pretty well to use one of these for each camera : http://bananapiwarehouse.com/lang/en-us/banana-pi-bpi-d1-camera/ and just get the pictures over the network ...

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 1:01 AM, Jason von Nieda <ja...@vonnieda.org> wrote:

Multi bottom vision camera support is something I've wanted to add for a while, but I haven't had the hardware to support it. Niels is now making incredible progress with the new capture library, so soon it will be MUCH easier to support multiple cameras without all the USB problems. At that point it will be reasonable to add support for multi bottom vision cameras. 

So, I won't say it's coming soon, but it's on the roadmap.

Jason

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 5:12 PM Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi!
When I was thinking to buy this machine, mainly I was worried about the mechanical quality of this machine (and see it's good). I haven't expected so big shit about the soft as you say at all...
As there is Ultimate version of W7 you can download and add other language packet instead of replacement whole the system. You will stay then with every libraries, fonts etc  added by Chineses. Chinese WIN version doesn't allow for this?? Understand it's not final solution for you but maybe temporary useful until you migrate to Openpnp.
As I know, Openpnp doesn't support multicameras for bottom vision on the moment. You can add there more than one bottom cameras but the soft cannot "read" and analyze 4 cameras simultaneously as you have it now. Maybe I'm wrong but don't think, you will get sure information about this from CriS or Jason very soon I think :-). Don't know if they plan to add that functionality in future.
Girl who sells SMT460 (Jim Jiang) and Wenzhou YingXing Technology isn't the real factory. You can find on YouTube that they sold few different machine under the same name. Manufacturer one of them was Boreytech from Beijing. You can try to contact to them and try get some more serious help than from Wenzhou. However it's not 100% that they took your machine from Borey.

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[Jason von Nieda]

Hi Arthur,

Yes, it's possible to grab images over the network in a few different ways, but it hasn't been explored very much. Some folks are using the WebcamCamera and others have hacked support into the OpenCVCamera. We also have native support for Onvif. I think if network camera hardware became more readily available we'd definitely spend some time on this.

That being said, do you have any experience with this camera board? It says it's open source but I can't find any. If there is an open source board out there that has support for a native camera module I'd be very interested as this is a black magic area in electronics. I've wanted to develop a small, simple camera module for years but to the best of my understanding the manufactures of the camera sensors aren't really interested in talking to you if you aren't talking millions of units.

Jason

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:43 PM Arthur Wolf <wolf....@gmail.com> wrote:

Jason : about many cameras without USB. Does OpenPNP currently supports getting the images from an URL instead of USB ? If so I think it'd work pretty well to use one of these for each camera : http://bananapiwarehouse.com/lang/en-us/banana-pi-bpi-d1-camera/ and just get the pictures over the network ...

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 1:01 AM, Jason von Nieda <ja...@vonnieda.org> wrote:

Multi bottom vision camera support is something I've wanted to add for a while, but I haven't had the hardware to support it. Niels is now making incredible progress with the new capture library, so soon it will be MUCH easier to support multiple cameras without all the USB problems. At that point it will be reasonable to add support for multi bottom vision cameras. 

So, I won't say it's coming soon, but it's on the roadmap.

Jason

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 5:12 PM Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi!
When I was thinking to buy this machine, mainly I was worried about the mechanical quality of this machine (and see it's good). I haven't expected so big shit about the soft as you say at all...
As there is Ultimate version of W7 you can download and add other language packet instead of replacement whole the system. You will stay then with every libraries, fonts etc  added by Chineses. Chinese WIN version doesn't allow for this?? Understand it's not final solution for you but maybe temporary useful until you migrate to Openpnp.
As I know, Openpnp doesn't support multicameras for bottom vision on the moment. You can add there more than one bottom cameras but the soft cannot "read" and analyze 4 cameras simultaneously as you have it now. Maybe I'm wrong but don't think, you will get sure information about this from CriS or Jason very soon I think :-). Don't know if they plan to add that functionality in future.
Girl who sells SMT460 (Jim Jiang) and Wenzhou YingXing Technology isn't the real factory. You can find on YouTube that they sold few different machine under the same name. Manufacturer one of them was Boreytech from Beijing. You can try to contact to them and try get some more serious help than from Wenzhou. However it's not 100% that they took your machine from Borey.

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[Arthur Wolf]

A search on aliexpress shows some very cool options there ( much less expensive than the orange pi thing too ).

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/Sony-IMX322-HI3516C-IP-Camera-Module-IP-PCB-board-2mp-1080P-1-3-CMOS-DWDR/32781638921.html
https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1080P-Network-2-0MP-mini-IP-Camera-Board-ONVIF-2-8-12mm-manual-Varifocal-Zoom-Lens/1995949925.html

fairly inexpensive, and allows you to grab pictures over the network.

I'm working on using vision to do origin finding on cnc mills, so I'm going to be trying out these boards, I'll report back here. If they work for my needs they probably do for pnp.

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 1:54 AM, Jason von Nieda <ja...@vonnieda.org> wrote:

Hi Arthur,

Yes, it's possible to grab images over the network in a few different ways, but it hasn't been explored very much. Some folks are using the WebcamCamera and others have hacked support into the OpenCVCamera. We also have native support for Onvif. I think if network camera hardware became more readily available we'd definitely spend some time on this.

That being said, do you have any experience with this camera board? It says it's open source but I can't find any. If there is an open source board out there that has support for a native camera module I'd be very interested as this is a black magic area in electronics. I've wanted to develop a small, simple camera module for years but to the best of my understanding the manufactures of the camera sensors aren't really interested in talking to you if you aren't talking millions of units.

Jason

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:43 PM Arthur Wolf <wolf....@gmail.com> wrote:

Jason : about many cameras without USB. Does OpenPNP currently supports getting the images from an URL instead of USB ? If so I think it'd work pretty well to use one of these for each camera : http://bananapiwarehouse.com/lang/en-us/banana-pi-bpi-d1-camera/ and just get the pictures over the network ...

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 1:01 AM, Jason von Nieda <ja...@vonnieda.org> wrote:

Multi bottom vision camera support is something I've wanted to add for a while, but I haven't had the hardware to support it. Niels is now making incredible progress with the new capture library, so soon it will be MUCH easier to support multiple cameras without all the USB problems. At that point it will be reasonable to add support for multi bottom vision cameras. 

So, I won't say it's coming soon, but it's on the roadmap.

Jason

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 5:12 PM Marek T. <marek.tw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi!
When I was thinking to buy this machine, mainly I was worried about the mechanical quality of this machine (and see it's good). I haven't expected so big shit about the soft as you say at all...
As there is Ultimate version of W7 you can download and add other language packet instead of replacement whole the system. You will stay then with every libraries, fonts etc  added by Chineses. Chinese WIN version doesn't allow for this?? Understand it's not final solution for you but maybe temporary useful until you migrate to Openpnp.
As I know, Openpnp doesn't support multicameras for bottom vision on the moment. You can add there more than one bottom cameras but the soft cannot "read" and analyze 4 cameras simultaneously as you have it now. Maybe I'm wrong but don't think, you will get sure information about this from CriS or Jason very soon I think :-). Don't know if they plan to add that functionality in future.
Girl who sells SMT460 (Jim Jiang) and Wenzhou YingXing Technology isn't the real factory. You can find on YouTube that they sold few different machine under the same name. Manufacturer one of them was Boreytech from Beijing. You can try to contact to them and try get some more serious help than from Wenzhou. However it's not 100% that they took your machine from Borey.

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[Paul Jones]

I’m currently using a rpi camera and a usb camera which are both streamed from the rpi using https://github.com/jacksonliam/mjpg-streamer

 

I started with OpenCvCamera, but OpenCv is garbage when using network capture devices. I then started using WebcamCamera which is better, but still rather awkward to use. I’ve been watching development on openpnp-capture with interest, so when it’s somewhat working I’ll add support for network capture to that.

I couldn’t find any usable software to stream Onvif from the rpi.

 

Paul.

 

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[Rich Obermeyer]

FYI, there is a push in the hi-res camera world to add video 

processing in the camera.  Because of recent use of cameras in 

front doors and porches the cameras need to process motion internally.

In some cases object size to wake up the system CPU. The system

sleeps until the camera finds a specific size and shape of moving object.

Reduces system power and false alarms for small cats and birds.

That filter/processing will be very useful for apps like openpnp.  I hope

to see a spec soon.

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[Cri S]

@Cyril are you using win or unix ?

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[Cyril]

@Cri S

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 10:54:38 AM UTC+3, Cri S wrote:

@Cyril  are you using win or unix ?

 

I am using Linux, OpenBSD, MacOS for all my daily activities, and when I was ordering  the SMT460 machine they promised, 

that there is Linux version for the control software available (another lie)

I run Windows as Virtual Machine with VirtualBox and Parallels  when it is necessary 

for e.g. Altium Designer, proprietary FPGA IDE/Toolchains... for everything else I am always first looking for a Posix and Open Source...

That's why I like OpenPnP, Java is portable and multi-platform... 

Currently all tests for migrating SMT460 to OpenPnP are done within the original windows machine, that came from China, 

because I was capturing serial protocol, and reflecting the .NET code of the crappy software...

I've setup both IntelliJ IDEA and Eclipse Mars for building and running OpenPnP

inside the Windows machine, also I'm using Processing for Java for testing serial commands and

DRO readings aside the original software and OpenPnP. 

My plan is to use few RPI's boards for capturing cameras and delivering network streams

to OpenPnP (in case USB issues are not solved)  and move everything to Linux later.

If you have any recommendations I will appreciate any advice. 

I am ready to cooperate and share experience with anyone who interested in that project.

Regards

[Eagle Media]

Which USB issues are you referring?
AFAIR there are no USB issues other than "using multiple cameras on the same usb bus"

You can run into other troubles with RPI Cameras.

Regards,
Rick

[Cyril]

@Rick

Hi, one potential problem still is "using multiple cameras on the same usb bus",

other I think could be USB enumeration mess, when using many (5-6) USB cameras of the same type, even with a different USB root hosts.

But so far major one, is the currently lacking support in the OpenPnP for parallel processing and orientation

of 4 nozzles with 4 cameras (feeder sourced parts), plus 5th HD camera for bigger parts taken from trays.

RPI I intend to use with same USB cameras, and it will just convert captured video to RTSP, and possible ONVIF...

I am still choosing the right path, but I will not use the RPI's built-in camera port. I prefer all modifications done by me, 

to stay upward compatible with future versions and developments around OpenPNP.

Lastnight I managed to start my machine with OpenPnP via the custom driver I'm writing. It is doing good all basic things.

Now I have to implement new configuration panel with sliders and checkboxes, in the setup menu. I will help me to continue

developing the driver, to control machine's additional features, and tweak camera parameters remotely.

Regards

Cyril

[Cri S]

> I am using Linux, OpenBSD, MacOS for all my daily activities, and when I

Then if you are ready for linux, use that and install the driver if
required for the video card
in order it is visible in v4l2 . Eventually that is not needed. Using
the pci vendor/procuct
key with lspci ... , surely you know that already.

os.system("v4l2-ctl -d /dev/video0 -i 5 -s 4
--set-fmt-video=width=720,height=576,pixelformat=4");
With :

-d : device (in my case /dev/video0),
-i : input. for my Easycap (0 = CVBS0; 1 = CVBS1; 2 = CVBS2; 3 =
CVBS3; 4 = CVBS4; 5 = S-VIDEO)
-s : norm (0 = PAL_BGHIN; 1 = NTSC_N_443; 2 = PAL_Nc; 3 = NTSC_N; 4 =
SECAM; 5 = NTSC_M; 6 = NTSC_M_JP; 7 = PAL_60; 8 = NTSC_443; 9 =
PAL_M;)

, other device maybe have different format, with v4l2-ctl you get out
the meaning.
The most usual error getting no image out from analog camera is that
format is setup to
NTSC and camera is PAL.

javacv have native support for analog cameras and mux and run on win and unix.
just use opencv driver, and webcam
for the usb cameras (removing -video0 suffix from machine.xml) . and
switch the mux
using v4l-ctl without need to change source code for openpnp.

On machine.xml for every nozzle change the id="N1" either to "1" or
to "N_1" depending what you prefer. The second assume first 2 char
are ID and then there is numeric index.
in order getId().substring(2) is valid numeric id. Optional use 3 id,
that is safer for future,
and two underscore, do it consistent trought all the machine.xml.
Inside vision pipeline, you could call a (bsh) script that simply does:
I'm not sure about getProperty on pipeline as this was introduced
recently and i don't have
use it or switched to it and this example assume 3 chars for id,
change accordly you'r
preferences or use exec instead of execUsingShell .

cmd="v4l2-ctl -d /dev/video0 -i "
+((String)pipeline.getProperty("nozzle")).getId().substring(3) + " -s
4 --set-fmt-video=width=720,height=576,pixelformat=4";

if(
com.Ostermiller.util.ExecHelper.execUsingShell(cmd)).getStatus()!=0)
throw new Exception("System error during camera mux switching");

Further i suggest you to configure NaN as location X and Y for the uplooking
camera manually inside machine.xml and inside the script to
have:

nozzle = machine.getDefaultHead().getDefaultNozzle();
nozzle.moveTo(nozzle.getLocation().derive(xxx,yyy,null,null));
// where xxx and yyy are coordinate of uplooking camera.
// the same move should be accessible from a Camera4.bsh script inside
go subdir inside
// scripts.
nozzle= (Nozzle)pipeline.getProperty("nozzle");
cmd="v4l2-ctl -d /dev/video0 -i " + nozzle.getId().substring(3) + " -s
4 --set-fmt-video=width=720,height=576,pixelformat=4";

alternativly you could store that location inside
machine.set/getProperty() and inside
scripts use thats and setting it up on startup script.

As you have a mux, it is supported by openpnp, having separate cameras
implies that
the pipeline setup the correct camera based on nozzle and that
functionality was
intentionally removed or not wanted.

[Cri S]

usb enumeration, just remove the -video0 suffix from camera id from
webcam configuration (manually) inside machine.xml and the enumeration
problem go away.

[Gonzo Veliki]

@Marek T.

Hi,

using the international/us windows for SMT460 control software

is impossible, adding language pack to the original Chinese version is the only way to get something readable on the desktop, but there are still many issues if you try to install more third party software  like gerber tools, cam processors, viewers, etc., The language pack changes only few things, and many texts in windows remain cryptic, the directory structure of windows system and system paths are not as usual. Windows Locale must stay Chinese otherwise it will break SMT460 operation. The problem comes from system fonts and text kerning, also decimal point representation is wrong. Not to mention drivers nightmare for the JVS-C960 PCI 8 Channel Analog Video Grabber Card and for the HiRes CatchBest U3C500C USB 3.0 camera.

In short these machines comes with solid and stiff chassis/frame, thick base plate, quality machined parts rails and bearings, giving the impression that will work flawless out of the box. But after that the real nightmare had began, I have to hire a Chinese fluent guy from the local Chi restaurant to help me with the menu :)

 

I successfully adapted OpenPnP to that machine for movement, and

now I will follow @Cri S (Thank you!)  advice for the vision, under Linux.

Regards

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[Marek T.]

Oh sh**, here is not Chinatowns in my country only Korean or Vietnamise, so I could not work with this machine at all 😀.
Fine that it seems you are good with Linux and good enough to follow CriS' short form advices. Wish you luck with this job then maybe will think to buy this machine too :-). However import it to Europe with their dubious certificates may produce problems.

[Pixbroker]

@Cyril, I just bought a SMT460 myself and was wondering if you could give a short update on your progress of OpenPnP conversion? Thanks!

[Cyril]

Hello Pixbroker,

my conversion is almost finished. I have written an external application which controls SMT460 servo's and valves

and adapts to OpenPNP via LinuxCNC and/or Virtual ComPort emulating G-Code controllers.

I have done a lot of changes to hardware as well. I am ready to share in case you opt to change your machine too.

Regards

[julian...@gmail.com]

Hi there Pixel

I've just received an SMT460 but I can't even get it to work.. grrr..   I can turn the machine on... turn on the monitor, run up the YX program... (icon on desktop).. and I can see all the information, I can see the 'mark' camera image,  (in my case it seems to want 'COM3' as the preferred serial port.. don't know which thing relies on that)... anyway.. it  all lasts about a minute, or until I try to change something for the XY gantry/table then it gives me a message in Chinese which I think says "no communication" and when I click ok the program exits.  If I try firing up the program again, it rejects that with some other chinese message!  When I turn the SMT460 off...then ON again, and fire up the program, I can get the image back, and the home screen for the human interface of the YX operating system, but.. move something, click something.. "the end".... that evil message comes up. I've got an engineer over at YX working on it now... I sent them a video of how I fired it all up... no reply just yet..    did you find the CONNECTION video wrong? I did, it shows a red and black wire pair coming out of the single wire D connector for  (presumably camera 5)  which then is plugged into what looks like a PCI mouse input!  But then when I asked them... they said "That's how the OLDer machines worked, now they feed the camera through a USB input .... (CONFUSING)... tell me your story.. have you managed to make your machine DO anything constructive?

Cheers.

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 8:25:21 AM UTC+11, Pixbroker wrote:

[julian...@gmail.com]

I just bought one Cyril.... you've done well to find out all that information.

do you have a schematic diagram?

I can't get my unit to fire up.. it goes 'home' and then any input to the interface screen causes one of those chinese messages and shut down!

Cheers

[julian...@gmail.com]

Hi Cyril... how do you write code for this SMT460..? Do you have a schematic diagram of all the bits and pieces and circuitry?  If so, can you share it with me.

I"m having an awful time even getting my thing working

I'm going back and forth with YX about it now.  :(

cheers

[julian...@gmail.com]

Cyril,

did you have any issue with which lead goes to which USB port on your SMT460?

The only video available shows a lead that is from an old way they did it..

[Gonzo Veliki]

Hi, I am in Australia right now, I don't know where are you and which is your time zone.

Are you using the original computer that came with the machine, with

the Chinese Windows 7?

You must plug the usb cable from the HiRes Camera into usb3 blue port.

And the other usb you must fit in black (regular 2.0) - that is for CP2104 Serial-to-USB

Check do you have SiLabs comport active in device manager, and see which com port number is asigned.

I can guide you in realtime chat, or send you some fresh software to reinstall on other machine

Now is 20:58 friday in Sydney Australia, we have match our time difference.

Regards

/Cyril/

[JULIAN DE ROSS]

Thanks so much for that Cyril...

your input there is highly valuable as I was confused about the USB camera port.

As for my woes... FIXED basically... I had to send videos and pics to the blokes at YX and "lo" they picked the area of the problem.   There is a 'limit' Led sensor at the back of the gantry, and there was no light..... no wonder the damn thing 'crashed' (sounded) when it initially zero'd.  I touched the lead and... it came ON... let the lead go... it went off.. finally, I pulled off the plug to the sensor and found it had 4 tabs/leads/pins.. 2 of them were skew-if.... bent.. when I straightened them the unit booted up brilliantly and I could actually use all the buttons on the gui.  Greatly relieved now about that.

I'm using the supplied computer, yes.

I'll check the comport.

That idea of some software for another machine sounds interesting. I've got one more PC in my factory area.  
You seem to know a lot about these.. do you have any kind of schematic for it?

Will the other software work with the 6 camera's?

Finally.. what do you 'do'?  I'm sorta retired, but I have a small manufacturing plant. I live in Victoria, Eastern Standard Daylight saving time.

I also bought a Puhui T-960 reflow oven and a screen/stencil printer table.

For real time chat.. we can use skype right?

Feel free to give me a bell anytime. I might not be around, but if I am, I'm happy to chat and compare notes.

motroni...@gmail.com is one active skype account.

Cheers

Julian

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[JULIAN DE ROSS]

Cyril...

one more thing.

On my unit there is a bunch of video connectors dangling out of the D connectors and one D connector only has ONE camera lead into it. Do you know what those extra leads were meant to be fore? (The BNCs)

J

[Konstantinos Pappas]

Hello Cyril,
This is Kostas from Greece.
I have just buy a SMT460 and im trying to do the training courses looking the youtube videos and operate it. Im facing a lot of problems (program stacks, un- accurate pickup of components,problems calibrating nozzles etc).
I dont know what to do to go on.
Waiting your progress with your external application and i will like to try it when you will be ready.
I have a small construction company here in Greece and it was very hard for me to collect all the money to buy this, plus solder, feeders etc.
Is my first try to assembly my self my own PCBs.
Wish you the Best

[Konstantinos Pappas]

Τη Κυριακή, 5 Νοεμβρίου 2017 - 9:35:16 π.μ. UTC+2, ο χρήστης Cyril έγραψε:

[Cyril]

Hi Kostas, 

I am from Plovdiv/Bulgaria, but currently, I am in Sydney/Australia. I will be back on 3rd Dec. Then we could talk over the phone and I will explain to you what are major flaws of the SMT460's hardware and software, and share the way I am dealing with these.

I've tried to contact you on google hangouts, but with no luck, my time difference with Greece is +9hrs.

Regards

[Konstantinos Pappas]

Hi Ciril,
Thats very good news, we are so close.
My mail is   kostasp...@gmail.com and our location is at Thessaloniki.
I will be happy if you contact me. And even more if you come here some weekend.
Our site is www.teletechnika.gr
I fix a stack i had at the machine start,it was because a broken connector at Y axis end. Bad quality....?
Im starting over training.
Waiting your mail message,
Kostas

[JULIAN DE ROSS]

Hi Cyril

you won't get me on google hangouts yet.. (FYI).. I'm pretty much a facebook and email bloke... you could get me on facebook, but my fb name is 'Hugh Pearson' in a suit... 

Cheers

Julian

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[H Jilani]

Cyril,

  Would you recommend this product?  I was about to buy it but after seeing your trouble I may not.  Like you, hardware was very impressive.  I am surprised there is no open source software that can be used in its place?

[Konstantinos Pappas]

Cyril Hello,
This is Kostas from Greece
are you there?
Im trying to communicate with you but there is no answer.
What about SMT460 project? Any progress?

[Guillaume]

Dear Cyril,

My name is Guillaume, I bought a SMT460 in China and as you said the hardware is very impressive and well designed. But when you start the software, the nightmare starts....

My first goal was to write a software to convert automatically the file to placement project for the machine in order not to use the import system.
I precise that I had a TMV802B before and I develop a software to generate the file for the machine directly.
First the coordinates of the SMT460 seems to be in 1/100mm but they do not use a orthonormal axis (Y is inverted...).
I tried to understand the way they use to convert the coordinates from mm to their units, it not a multiplication by 100, there is an offset but nothing logical.

What about the commands, could you tell me the protocol you reverse engineered : maybe I will try to write my own software.

If you have some information I would be very happy to get the results of your researches.

Best regards,
Guillaume (lem...@free.fr)

[anghel.alexand...@gmail.com]

Hy, I also bought recently a SMT460 from YZ ... I received another machine , I believe something from Borey tech similar to the SMT460. Manufacturer claims it is practical the same.

I am having issues with the software and manual that seems to me it is done with google translate. Anybody experience with this machine that can help me operate it and understand it better ?

Mine is something like a SMT460 but with conveyor belt for pcb's. However the name on the side is HW-T4 .. something ..

greets Alex

Op maandag 16 april 2018 22:20:53 UTC+2 schreef Guillaume:

[Marek T.]

If you are sure it's real Borey I can search direct contact to technical guy from the factory. But Borey is making conveyor machines for few years already and their new machines of capacity like smt460 have 9 bottom cameras (4 at front, 4 at rear and one central for large components). I wanted to buy it but given up due to lack of certificates. Is your machine equipped the same?

[Marek T.]

Ok, found it in my archive, HWT4 seems be realy Borey...
I also have found some Borey's manual for their other machine, not the same like your one but probably software differencies are not very large - maybe it will help you a bit to tame the animal :-)

[anghel.alexand...@gmail.com]

Hy,

Thank you for the file but this is not exactly the machine.

Mine is HW-T4-42F and is sold by YX the same manufacturer that sells the SMT460. 

It has 42 Feeders, 6 camera's , hiwin linear rails and is equipped with a conveyor.

I recently got the new software upgrade from the seller but I dont have the right parameter file for this machine.
It seems the new R3 software only works for SMT660 , SMT880 etc.. This software is 2018 version and it looks more user friendly.

They give me this software and now I can't use it, neither I have the older firmware for the upper and lower computer. They are .TFU files if I'm not mistaken. Anybody have those ?

 I do not have a file that shows the main difference and bugs between the old software and new software. If somebody have this please share it, I am curious. IF anybody have information or files for this machine let me know. So far I have done some minor modifications on the pcb conveyor because it would not work for smaller pcb's so I had to make new bracket as well as other hardware modifications in order for it to work with 28mm wide pcb's instead of the minimum 40mm.

greets

Op maandag 30 april 2018 15:46:09 UTC+2 schreef Marek T.:

[Marek T.]

I'll send you later contact details to guy from Borey factory. I think he'll provide you more responsible support than the seller who often even doesn't know what's exactly selling...

[anghel.alexand...@gmail.com]

Hy,

Ok please do so .. al information are welcome.

Op zaterdag 5 mei 2018 14:29:31 UTC+2 schreef Marek T.:

[anghel.alexand...@gmail.com]

Hy,

Does somebody here have the firmware of the main and slave computer (mcu's) ? I am looking for the old version firmware of the SMT460.

For some reason manufacturer told me to instal the new software and new firmware ... and now it doesn't work. I ask him to send me the old firmware he says it is not possible ?

Am I going crazy ? 

[Marek T.]

Looks crazy that you want load firmware of SMT460 to Borey machine... However I don't finaly know who exactly manufactures SMT but not Borey as seems to me.
Here is an email address to someone dealing with SMT whom I was talking to some time ago jimj...@wzyxing.com.cn . But probably you have the same I guess.

The contact details to Boreytech guy I have sent you on private as don't feel allowed to share it widely without owner acceptation.

[JULIAN DE ROSS]

JimJiang is the contact person for the SMT460 and is generally helpful, but he usually refers to an engineer for more complicated issues.    They have assisted me resolve a challenging problem which was producing PROGRAM CRASH each time the X-Y table tried to go 'home'.

The issue was an LED sensor at the home position which had one pin of it's connector bent and thus not connecting. (Makes you wonder how they final tested the machine!!!!).... Anyway.. though I've still not used the machine other than verifying the program no longer crashes at 'home'...Others have got them working, and a chap in Brazil had a similar problem to me, but got it going, then found a couple of minor issues about certain loaders which could not be reached and some kind of 'out of bounds' issue if the placement head was sent too far.

Hope this helps

Julian

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[anghel.alexand...@gmail.com]

That's the problem Marek :)) .. the communication and business relationship with jim from wzyxing is not good. I don't know if he is dealing with the problems himself or somebody else but hi's engineers are a joke. I have to make videos fro everything explaining everything step by step 10 times ... Then it is still my fault or something that I am doing wrong according to him. I have no choice now. When you upgrade the new firmware files for the main and slave mcu with the small program from ST, you can choose to upload the firmware I think. The SMT460 is the same as HW-T4-42F. There are many machines that are similar to this. In china they call this '' MY factory '' and actually it is somebody else who is the real manufacturer. The problem you don't know where or from who you are buying it and you are stuck with the SH*T afterwwards. .. I also do not have time to change it to open source unless there is a ready to instal file and firmware and everything .. We need the machine up and running as fast as possible for a small batch production..

Op woensdag 9 mei 2018 13:57:23 UTC+2 schreef Marek T.:

[anghel.alexand...@gmail.com]

By the way, 

With the new software you can choose between SMT450, SMT440, SMT440R, SMT660 and SMT880 .. There is no SMT460 so why would somebody tell me to instal the new software if they DIDN't knew it is ready ? When you choose a profile it does not connect unless it is SMT440R and SMT660. Im guessing the chipset is the same and recognizes the firmware or whatever... When choosing the SMT660 The machine does not operate as it should which is logical as it have different parameters. The engineer from WZYXING tells me to choose SMT440. But the funny thing is that the software itself gives me an error, '' there is currently no support for this machine '' so you can not choose it. I tried with the SMT440R and it connects but as soon as the machine goes to it's homing position software gives me an error and stops.

There is nothing wrong with the homing sensors.. The machine worked fine before with the older software .. AND like I mentioned if I choose the SMT660 profile the machine works  a little it goes to its homing position I can move the Y about 4cm and the X beyond it's reach ... and the nozzles goes up and down.. 

Does somebody here have the SMT460 with the older software from 2017 and older ?

greets

[Marek T.]

Are you still working on Chinese Windows or reinstalled the system to English (or other)? Because as remember Ciril told that soft for smt440 requires some non-typical libraries that were installed by Chineses, no existing in "normal" languages systems. So maybe your errors are due to lack of them...

[anghel.alexand...@gmail.com]

Hy,

Just to be clear my machine is not SMT440 neither SMT460. My machine is sold by the YX manufacturer called JIM and the machine that I bought was a SMT460 but he sent me other machine.

He sent me the HW-T4-42F and is made by SMTHW.com They have 2 versions of software and firmware. The older version and the new 2018 version. The 2018 version seems to be made in better english as well as the manual for it. The older one was made very poorly or with google translate. The old software however was more complex and you had more buttons and parameters to adjust in the PC software itself.

On the new software it looks more easy but it for the moment I didn't find how to test the feeders or align the nozzles , pick up height from the feeders, height on the pcb etc .. With older software this was much easier to see and to configure. This is not the problem. 

The problem is I had a working software the old version and everything worked perfect. Jim told me to instal the new software and the new software was not ready as it should have.

Before I installed the new software I did a backup of the parameters on the old software. Few days ago I got the firmware for the old software back and the old PC software. I installed it and finally I could go back to the old software version. The problem is that some things are messed up. Everything except the x,y and z is messed up. The nozzle works , the vacuum of the nozzle works, the X and Y limits seems to be ok. But the feeders and camera's are mixed. The feeder number on the machine do not correspond with the number on the software. Worse .. some numbers on the pc software does not do nothing at all.

For example number 42 on the PC software is number 4 on the machine. Number 28 on the PC software does nothing at all .. and many other numbers are mixed. This is related to the parameter file if I'm not mistaken. The other problem is the LEDS of the FAST cameras and the HIRES camera does not work. Also the MARK cam goes on when you choose FAST cam on the PC software. So it is mixed up again.

The strange thing is that I even tried again with LOADING my previous parameters I have saved. I had that old backup so I uploaded and still the same. I also have noticed something and was just curious. The firmware files are not so big. There are 2 mcu's on the machine end. Main mcu and slave mcu. Main mcu have a 24kb .DFU file and the Slave mcu firmware file is about 6kb. After I upgrade the mcu's and try to upload the files to the PC I get 1024kb for the main and 1024kb for the slave. I know this is the size of the mcu but why does it uploads the whole memory ?

greets

Op vrijdag 11 mei 2018 22:07:12 UTC+2 schreef Marek T.:

[Cri S]

Normally the mcu have internal eeprom or emulates it using flash for
parameter storage and that part don't necessary get updated or there
have some flags/bytes inside bootloader, write only flags that are
problematic for downgrades.
Usually inside Firmware there is a number that
get increased and the firmware checks if the number is less then the
internal number,
If so, it is a upgrade and it upgrade the settings. This don't work on
downgrades, and for
downgrades, a special downgrade firmware is usually required to be
loaded in order to
clean up the settings and initialize it in a way that older firmware
can be loaded.
Maybe there exista a firmware sequence or mode, where this setting get
erased. I doubt that outside the producer or reseller that have a
direct contact with producer the problem can be resolved without
replacing the electronic..
Further if producer don't have such downgrading firmware, the only
possibility is replacing
the electronic, as producer can reflash the electronic to working
state, where it is not possible using upgrade mechanism. Annother
issue is, that maybe the firmware to blank the settings is the test
code used inside manufactury to test machine and that the producer
don't want share that code as this allows some things that the
producer don't want allow that the customer could do that. Basically
if the producer is not able to give
you a firmware or software that resets the machine and allows reflash
the old firmware, the simplest possibility is that the electronic get
replaced.


2018-05-12 15:07 GMT+02:00, anghel.alexand...@gmail.com
<anghel.alexand...@gmail.com>:

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[SMdude]

Is there no set up menu for setting feeder location?
I would take a very close look at all the files and see if thee is a feeder file of some sort.

Good luck with it....

[anghel.alexand...@gmail.com]

Hy,

I understand what you are saying, but who does that ? And what is the difference between downgrading or reinstalling a new firmware. I mean this would be very bad if you had to replace the electronics just to change a firmware...Mcu's are from ST and firmwares are .DFU files. Parameters could also be changed in the PC software by assigning the command line a different name .. I think , that would be logical.

If I were to erase the mcu's completely you are saying I could not upgrade it anymore? I find it kind of hard to believe that they would target specific memory in the mcu and others would remain ..
Especially if you know that the software has so many flaws like people complains here I hardly think they would have a code that is stable and that would always use. I think they just replace the entire firmware. Or at least I hope so. Main mcu is for controlling the x, y axis and some other stuff .. slave is for the nozzles etc and feeders , camera's have their own drivers and work through a capture card from Joyvison or something like that .. I think there is a lot more in the software itself then in the firmware.. Do you own an smt460 or a hw type machine ?

greets

Op zaterdag 12 mei 2018 15:41:23 UTC+2 schreef Cri S:

<anghel.alexandru.volo.des...@gmail.com>:

[Cri S]

The difference from ugrading to downgrading is this.

Upgrading know the previous config settings locations and is able to migrate or ugrade the settings, instead if you downgrade this is not possible and if the settings are not editable by user it is not possible to change it.

Now as example if old fw have set at location 10 the number oft feeder with value 32 and the newer fw have feeder retry at location 10 with value 4, the result from downgrading on this fictive example is that after downgrade only 4 feeders are Woking supposing this settings are only editable by engineer and not by final user. 

<anghel.alexandru.volo.designs@gmail.com>:

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[Cri S]

It is possible erasing the MCU you erase the bootloader or some configs or sw parts and as result bricks the machine. Exception is if there is no protection enabled and you could read out the fw and if MCU have ROM bootloader. 

Il domenica 13 maggio 2018, Cri S <phon...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

The difference from ugrading to downgrading is this.

Upgrading know the previous config settings locations and is able to migrate or ugrade the settings, instead if you downgrade this is not possible and if the settings are not editable by user it is not possible to change it.

Now as example if old fw have set at location 10 the number oft feeder with value 32 and the newer fw have feeder retry at location 10 with value 4, the result from downgrading on this fictive example is that after downgrade only 4 feeders are Woking supposing this settings are only editable by engineer and not by final user. 

[Jason von Nieda]

Please don't post commercial firmware to this list. If you have a link to a manufacturer's site, you can post that, but I can't allow commercial software to be posted directly to the list.

Thanks,

Jason

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:05 AM <anghel.alexand...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hy,

The firmware upgrades using .DFU files so I don't know if they are using a bootloader. They are using dfuse program to upload the firmware.

I have attached the OLD and NEW firmware files in hex.
Maybe somebody can take a look and layout the difference between the old and new main mcu firmware and slave mcu firmware.. If something gets erased or overridden when upgrading to the new..
Maybe somebody here is good at this... then we would know for certain.

greets

Op zondag 13 mei 2018 14:41:32 UTC+2 schreef Cri S:

It is possible erasing the MCU you erase the bootloader or some configs or sw parts and as result bricks the machine. Exception is if there is no protection enabled and you could read out the fw and if MCU have ROM bootloader. 

Il domenica 13 maggio 2018, Cri S <phon...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

The difference from ugrading to downgrading is this.

Upgrading know the previous config settings locations and is able to migrate or ugrade the settings, instead if you downgrade this is not possible and if the settings are not editable by user it is not possible to change it.

Now as example if old fw have set at location 10 the number oft feeder with value 32 and the newer fw have feeder retry at location 10 with value 4, the result from downgrading on this fictive example is that after downgrade only 4 feeders are Woking supposing this settings are only editable by engineer and not by final user. 

<anghel.alexand...@gmail.com>:

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