The religious atheist

[archytas]

Atheism is an evidence-based faith.  There's no getting away from faith, even if you make despair into one.  Small scale societies are less religious than larger ones, with less emphasis on afterlife, world rejection and salvation.  The small group has less resources for a parasitic priest class. Generally, as societies have progressed through farming, the archaeological evidence is that life got tougher for those not in control.  The daily number of hours worked got longer, nutrition deteriorated, infectious disease and body wear increased and life span shortened.  Descriptions of the plight of the poor in the industrial revolution are truly dreadful. Social stratification and inequality all increased from our hunter-gathering days. 

So we ask what the role of religion in this has been.  The story is long and unpleasant.  Currently, religion is much stronger in poor countries (80 to 99%) where GDP is less than $10,000 per capita and down to 71-43% where GDP is above $30,000.  Though we can see why there should be some kind of division of labour, we are not at all sure this should be based on religious traditions or the increasingly avaricious allocation class.  Machines are now doing most of the hard work where peasantry has been abolished, and we wonder about religious roles in work ethics.  We want a more rational materialism.

In this we reject the comforting aspects of religion, seeing them as materially achievable.  We don't reject spirituality, other than as a control mechanism, a governing of the soul through fable and intolerance through claims of absolute authority.

[facilitator]

"Atheism is an evidence-based faith."

Evidence of what?

"In this we reject the comforting aspects of religion, seeing them as materially achievable."   

 Opulence and status of Clergy vs laity has always been problematic.  

[archytas]

It isn't possible to write the full opus here Tony.  You say 'always', yet the shamans went out to the hunt and shared the ordinary work.  I suppose we look for evidence of clergy economic rent on society and what, if anything, is received in return.  Original claims involved special connections with the divine The solution in every chiefdom and early state society - from ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, Polynesian Hawaii to the Incas was to proclaim an organised religion with the chief or king related to the gods - then various very similar control of resources, public works, storehouses, work organisation, armies and education form.

The evidence we look at is human development and organisation.  Differences between gods look rather unimportant in this context of historical and anthropological evidence.  Underlying the search is some kind of faith that truth can lead to a new form of consciousness and living together.  We don't know what this faith is.  Skepticism is very hard to ground and one needs faith to believe there can be knowledge or devote oneself to a life of inquiry.

This is hardly new.  The pre-Socratics noted gods were suspiciously anthropomorphic (a culture's gods looked like the culture) and Socrates said something like;

Socrates raises the challenge that it might be truly bad (for one's life, for the state of one's soul, and so on) to base one's actions on unexamined beliefs. For all one knows, these beliefs could be false, and without investigation, one does not even aim to rid oneself of false belief, which is admittedly a bad thing for one's soul. Only an examined life is worth living. Once we take this challenge seriously, as the ancient skeptics do, we embark on a kind of investigation that is seen as directly relevant to our lives. Our beliefs are assumed, at this pre-skeptical phase, to be guiding our actions. Confidence in unexamined views seems misplaced. Others regularly disagree with us. With respect to even the most basic questions, such as whether there is movement, or whether there are good and bad things, we face conflicting views. In favor of each view, some arguments can be adduced, some practices invoked, some experiences cited. These conflicting arguments, practices and experiences need to be examined. But that just raises further views that are in conflict. As a consequence, suspension of judgment on every such question looks rationally mandatory. But it is also rational to persist in investigation. The skeptic is committed to a search for the truth, on virtually all questions, even if this search repeatedly and predictably leads to suspension of judgment.

Faith can look like the opposite of evidence-based action.  I don't believe this.  Something emergent comes from inquiry, there is feedback and faith to act from suspended judgement.  This is not the kind of faith that can lead one to be indistinguishable from a zealot moron.

[Gabby]

I need to hurry, before Allan wakes up and enters the scene ....

What you are doing looks like circular reasoning to me, not leading anywhere, only referring back to you. Demonstrating selected faith fossils as proof how humans have killed curiosity does not make you look any less zealot moron-like. That's the price you need to pay when your target market is the points business.

What do want here, Neil? Maybe we could help you to find you the right peer group so you could get whe you want to get.

[archytas]

Of course, I should say we aren't ancient Greeks and have science with such as crucial experiments.  Evidence is not something we treat as direct observation language and spins with theory.  We are not simple empiricists, recognising evidence hits world-view or research programme networks.  I would say we are both 'tropical fish realists' and deeper 'structural realists'.  In the first, if we want to keep tropical fish we find out how to do this from people who know (or follow textbook recipes).  In the second, we analyse how we construct theories and how these relate to how we treat evidence, measurement and approximations in choice of mathematical systems.

What we can believe is difficult.  Is it big bang, little whimper, M-theory (several universes of brane form), multiverse (various), string theory (various) or two universes with one running 'time backwards' (called the multiple future idea)?  Could it all be more biocentric than this, as Molly reminded us recently?

It all might still come down to a world created in 4004 BC complete with fossil record and memories.  We tend though, not to like evidence from ancient people likely to be convinced by stories involving talking serpents and need instruments of torture to convince others.  Evolution makes much more sense to me, though it has plenty of metaphors to challenge.

This is not the end of the story.  I have seen Molly say much of this in her own way.  There are also prudential reasons for belief and I can still believe in god (and do).  I deeply resent 'scientist atheists' (look up Rebecca Watson) who shout 'look at the evidence' at people who don't know how in our terms, and usually turn out not to know the difficulties of our own position.  This doesn't stop me being appalled by those who would teach kids creationism instead of biology.

[archytas]

More rhetoric Gabby.  Your killing curiosity is not mine.  Can you explain what circular reasoning is?  You repeatedly come back to the rather nasty.  

[gabbydott]

Whereas I don't think you are nasty. If the key for you is intentionality, then I would say your intentions are good. It's not exactly my key, which explains the deviant sound pattern interpretation.

Coming back to your question, I defined circular reasoning here as "not leading anywhere, only referring back" to the speaker.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Sorry Gabby i have been awake long before you wrote..

To conclude the internet and move on to the next idea.. The internet can allow communication between groups and share ideas and work together for the greater good of humanity. Forming small groups and the internet will allow them to do differant specialities and work as a cohesive units

A while back we did a peice on the moral compass.  The next step was to resort what was submitted into each persons vsration of the compass..   I did do it.

I know God is real .  that is enough knowing there is a power greater than myself.. God does not wave a magic wand but works within his creation.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

No Gabby, I rather like you.  I see the circularity as coming back to intent and reaction.  The lack of speed in argument is very frustrating, as are the ways we avoid difficult argument in favour of unexamined routines.  We find it very easy to shoot the messenger for being subjective, perhaps in terms of stereotypes like 'men always speaking about themselves'.  The extra somatic content of the position I put forward is vast and not to do with me other than that I have a personal position open to it.  I would like to know how a speaker does not come back to herself without a dishonest feigning of objectivity, though to some extent all speech feigns a rationality compared with thought.  In fact, many people have tried to explicate their personal positions and communicative action comes back to intentionality on mutual understanding.  Part of that intention involves reciprocity on the explication of one's own thinking and feeling, and vulnerability.  Could the circularity in your case be not knowing the wider debate and reliance on rendering the views of others as externalities to be slagged off as irrelevant to you?  

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[archytas]

The devil is in the detail no doubt.  

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 11:17:29 AM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

Sorry Gabby i have been awake long before you wrote..

To conclude the internet and move on to the next idea.. The internet can allow communication between groups and share ideas and work together for the greater good of humanity. Forming small groups and the internet will allow them to do differant specialities and work as a cohesive units

A while back we did a peice on the moral compass.  The next step was to resort what was submitted into each persons vsration of the compass..   I did do it.

I know God is real .  that is enough knowing there is a power greater than myself.. God does not wave a magic wand but works within his creation.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: "mind...@googlegroups.com" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: The religious atheist

Whereas I don't think you are nasty. If the key for you is intentionality, then I would say your intentions are good. It's not exactly my key, which explains the deviant sound pattern interpretation.

Coming back to your question, I defined circular reasoning here as "not leading anywhere, only referring back" to the speaker.

Am Freitag, 20. Februar 2015 schrieb archytas :

More rhetoric Gabby.  Your killing curiosity is not mine.  Can you explain what circular reasoning is?  You repeatedly come back to the rather nasty.  

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:21:14 AM UTC, Gabby wrote:

I need to hurry, before Allan wakes up and enters the scene ....

What you are doing looks like circular reasoning to me, not leading anywhere, only referring back to you. Demonstrating selected faith fossils as proof how humans have killed curiosity does not make you look any less zealot moron-like. That's the price you need to pay when your target market is the points business.

What do want here, Neil? Maybe we could help you to find you the right peer group so you could get whe you want to get.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Thats true..   Not feel that good this morning..

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[gabbydott]

Maybe it is your loud we-future speculation habit that got me in to what feels like a pact with the devil. Maybe that's why I said I'd take the brakes. Your "we" sound at the moment is so negating all diversity and variety that it is breathtaking. The intentionality of mutual understanding sounds like chopping all tongues and ears off and hammering a funnel into each understandee's head, far away from any common ground.

Am Freitag, 20. Februar 2015 schrieb archytas :

No Gabby, I rather like you.  I see the circularity as coming back to intent and reaction.  The lack of speed in argument is very frustrating, as are the ways we avoid difficult argument in favour of unexamined routines.  We find it very easy to shoot the messenger for being subjective, perhaps in terms of stereotypes like 'men always speaking about themselves'.  The extra somatic content of the position I put forward is vast and not to do with me other than that I have a personal position open to it.  I would like to know how a speaker does not come back to herself without a dishonest feigning of objectivity, though to some extent all speech feigns a rationality compared with thought.  In fact, many people have tried to explicate their personal positions and communicative action comes back to intentionality on mutual understanding.  Part of that intention involves reciprocity on the explication of one's own thinking and feeling, and vulnerability.  Could the circularity in your case be not knowing the wider debate and reliance on rendering the views of others as externalities to be slagged off as irrelevant to you?  

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 10:01:07 AM UTC, Gabby wrote:

Whereas I don't think you are nasty. If the key for you is intentionality, then I would say your intentions are good. It's not exactly my key, which explains the deviant sound pattern interpretation.

Coming back to your question, I defined circular reasoning here as "not leading anywhere, only referring back" to the speaker.

Am Freitag, 20. Februar 2015 schrieb archytas :

More rhetoric Gabby.  Your killing curiosity is not mine.  Can you explain what circular reasoning is?  You repeatedly come back to the rather nasty.  

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:21:14 AM UTC, Gabby wrote:

I need to hurry, before Allan wakes up and enters the scene ....

What you are doing looks like circular reasoning to me, not leading anywhere, only referring back to you. Demonstrating selected faith fossils as proof how humans have killed curiosity does not make you look any less zealot moron-like. That's the price you need to pay when your target market is the points business.

What do want here, Neil? Maybe we could help you to find you the right peer group so you could get whe you want to get.

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[archytas]

Me neither - can't get going.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Hmmm Quantum entangalment?   lol

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[archytas]

Standard teecher mincing really.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

We will see if the entanglement is working. Ah the spell checker is working again with automatic replacement is disabled..
To spell or not to spell that is the question..

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[facilitator]

I would describe myself as a non-religious theist.

Everything in this world and it's environs seem way too well fabricated and conveniently organized to be random.

[archytas]

Very coded my dear Wizard.  Some trouble with my new diabetic med here.  Need dog walk to freshen up.  They already know.  Max has just been chasing the hoover in anticipation.  Plenty of entanglement there,  News here is of missing schoolgirls who have tried to travel to Syria, followed by whodunit in the Eastenders soap yesterday.  Quantum strangeness rules, perhaps.

I'm off into my retreat mode soon.  It's odd that we do this in trying to understand more of society's language.  The sheer weight of its oppression makes it tough to do anything live.  We don't find anything improving, though we can't accommodate recent peace protests other than through media reports - we miss the spirituality protocols if you like - but we do have a good idea on how to get our language coding right and the relational process the machine gets up to.

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[archytas]

We're probably not that different in that Facil,  The organisational features in pre-human, even chemical getting-together works on me that that.  I don't do intelligent design, but I am skeptical about randomness (and don't need it for free will) - the quantum world is looking more and more like a cinema show without a screen to see the picture.  I err towards a notion there is some purpose we can't see, some potential to develop rather than scientific or other fatalism.  Did you get on the one-way mission to Mars?  I missed out and am weeping!

[allan...@gmail.com]

Not coded at all ,, just spent a bunch of time flipping  switches..  Have always have trouble spelling..  But when there is auto correction especially  with predictive text.. 

Then the wrong word is inserted into text. Usually miss the change.

Sounds like Max has your need for exercise under control..   Type I or II?

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[facilitator]

I'm in on the trip to mars when it becomes a round trip ticket.  Hell, I'l go to Europa when the price is right!

The fossil record doesn't bother me other than there really shouldn't be one.  Not because they didn't exist but because a fossil in nature's world is an anomaly, not a given means of preservation.  Dead things get eaten and usually don't wait for a massive world reaching demise.  In the mythos when man was "placed" here as a teenager they weren't asked to start fresh but to "Replenish" which seems to indicate something was before which isn't now.  So many fossils, so little time.   Time does not favor evolution, unless there is an orchestrated change.  Nature doesn't like a vacuum but it abhors change even more.  Genetics favors things staying the same so that the food cycle remains constant and precipitously balanced. 

[archytas]

Type II since I was 19.  Just changed to a tablet that removes sugars from blood via kidneys.  Disrupts the rest of the digestive system less, which has been a big problem the last ten years.

I am still amazed by people who find fossils and how they sniff them out.  I may as well be hunting truffles without a pig.  I have the same difficulty with evolution and time, but guess I have no real concept of the vastness of time  I explored the idea of a civilization 4 billion years older than ours that is no longer libidinal, do energy matter conversion and so on - and found I lacked imagination.  Must be my zombie-moron-lack-of-diversity gene.  I can't understand how we walked out of the sea, or whatever precursor did.  We have seen lizards evolve in real time in the West Indies somewhere.  I guess I can see survival mechanisms in transition.  Genetics and increasingly epigenetics do tell us a lot about biological change.

I'm not much concerned religious text gets so much wrong.  Deprived of modern science I don't think I would have a clue.  We can invent stories now and one looks much like another in terms of plot, genre and characters from Attic tragedy and comedy.  Visitations from gods and angels seem very unlikely, pretty much like monetary policy.  I favour looking at the stuff as fiction, quite a common matter in history and source evaluation.

The Mars trip is throwing up some interesting fuel-saving dodges   One is to chuck us out in front of the planet so its gravity pulls us in, and to slow us down in its atmosphere to save braking fuel.  This would leave enough propulsion energy to get us back using a similar trick with Earth.  Europa is my preferred destination, though gravity and radiation effects from Jupiter pose extra problems.  Life at either venue would pose some interesting questions, hopefully through a universal translator.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Thats a long time.. 
Fossils  are not really hard to find its more a matter of knowing where to look..   They are very much a part of the geological record in my home state of Montana..
One of the strangest records is the top of the Matterhorn wich is from the african continent.
Weird but true..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

[facilitator]

The fuel needed to escape Mars is much less since the gravity is only 38% of Earths.  Send the fuel first to get back…then send people.

A person I know had their stomach sown and it stopped their Diabetes.

[archytas]

It was always one of my dumb spots Allan.  There were loads around on beaches where I was counting dog-whelk 'teeth'.  I somehow missed them until I was shown what to look for.  As for 'Africa' folding over the Matterhorn, this is yet another example of not being able to think in big time and how much one needs to know to see what evidence is.  I can never really understand how buildings from comparatively recent times end up buried, presumably because this is not something we see in a lifetime.  

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[allan...@gmail.com]

As for the Matterhorn I didn't  believe it was watching a program on continental development.. The top is africa.

It is knowing what to look for..

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[allan...@gmail.com]

As for the Matterhorn I didn't  believe it was watching a program on continental development.. The top is africa.

It is knowing what to look for..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 8:54 PM

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[archytas]

Quite a common procedure now.  In mice, they have found transferring gut bacteria from those that have had the band also cures diabetes without the op.  Probably be available the day after our launch to the red planet and have discovered Gabby is on board as morale officer.

Some have argued that we can only understand the evolutionary role of genes by recognizing an informational “domain” that exists alongside the domain of matter and energy (teleosemantics) - and some genes actually decide what others do.  I wonder where we might get if we could drop the idea of a creator and random natural selection.

[archytas]

The finds were originally cited as 'bible proof'.  

[archytas]

Genesis 1:27-8 states: “God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” 

This is a bit more than just 'replenish'.

[archytas]

In 1972 Limits to Growth had this to say - also strikingly religious:

We affirm finally that any deliberate attempt to reach a rational and enduring state of equilibrium by planned measures, rather than by chance or catastrophe, must ultimately be founded on a basic change of values and goals at individual, national and world levels.

We might wonder, on diversity, how anthropocentric we actually are.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Never heard that..

Always thought the purpose of this reality was to demonstrate the souls understanding of do no harm..

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[facilitator]

Indicates God to be androgynous and not male.

[Allan H]

That concept is more egocentric than anything else.

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[gabbydott]

The we-wonder barkology back on track.

Am Freitag, 20. Februar 2015 schrieb archytas :

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[archytas]

Thank you again for the added value Jack Russell ankle snapping Gabby.

There were supposedly Androgens once.  If a man and a woman hugged tightly enough, one was supposed to emerge.  I suppose with our diversity scrutineer so active, we have to ponder on different outcomes for homosexual squeezing.

"It was said that before, in the origin of times, there were three sexes; male, female, and androgens. Original humans do not look like how we humans look today. Humans before were said to be twice of each person now, with two heads, two pair of eyes, two pair of lips, four hands, four feet, two bodies, two hearts, and of course two genitals."  Zeus put an end to it because they dared to climb Mount Olympus.

There is no fossil record, rather supporting your earlier theory Tony.  A lovely woman I did my postgrad with introduced me to the idea.  Hugging does increase hormonal androgens.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Was thinking about the old testament. Whati don't  like about it is the inaccurate descriptions. Or outright lies but what van you expect from a group of people trying to put themselves above the rest of humanity. I can relate to some of what is recorded because similar things have occurred to me,  which leaves me wondering what really went on.

The story of creation is fasinating especially if you pitch thr time scale and look it as stages..  In its own right it ts a simplified  version of the big bsng theory told to a group of herders/hunter gathers explaining their origin.. Similar in aspects to the stories of how the navajo emerhed on this earth. Both are amazingly accurate.  Personally in my views I tend to be a transendentlist believing that one can actually cross the time/space barrier to bring back information from the totality of all knowledge (which is ever expanding and not stagnant)  because of my understanding of a being greater than myself which I commonly refer to as God. This being helps me retrieve new information in a format you can understand. To me there is a totality of knowledge all contained with a being I refer to as God.

[gabbydott]

Hey, your spell checker is doing a good job, Allan! :) Thanks.

The compass needle is in balance. Back in balance. As this seems to be your orientational pattern: "bring back information from the totality of all knowledge". God being the representative of the "all knowledge" and therefore greater than the individual knowledge. Did I get that right so far? What leaves me wondering is, how does that understanding match with the One&theMany understanding, which would not really draw the line between the individual and the All, but see the different perspectives as the cause for you seeing God as being greater. Or let me ask differently, how much would you say is the soul the individual representative of the totality of all knowledge? And in how much is the soul equipped with its own compass needle from there?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

That is good to know,  always have had trouble getting spell checkers set up correctly.. Always takes a while then the a-holes keep changing the spell checkers.

You are a little off..  But close  basic christian theology is saying God is all knowing.. Which is another way of saying totality of all knowledge.

I am not sure what you mean by the one and the many.

Transendental theory is saying that there is a time/space barrier that seperates us from what we know and this r

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: "mind...@googlegroups.com" <mind...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: The religious atheist

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[gabbydott]

The One but the many, the many but the One - does not sound convincing in my ears. Allan, what do you say?

Am Samstag, 21. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

Gabby , the logic is that One is behind the many , but not the many. The individual is just a fragment or rather an emanation of the One , but not the One. It is the One which is the repository of all knowledge where the infinite beings , the limitless creation, is unmanifest and become manifest when their time comes. Theoretically as all that has been or will be is there in the unmanifest any thing in the past or anything in the future can be known by touching that source. The past, present or the future is all history as it always exists in the One.

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[gabbydott]

I see. So when God is all knowing, all we need to do is break that time/space barrier to

A) be God?

B) have access to God knowledge?

C) possess God powers?

And what role does the soul play in that setting?

[allan...@gmail.com]

Contary to popular opinion I do not know everything..  I am going to need time to examine the thought.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: "mind...@googlegroups.com" <mind...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: The religious atheist

[gabbydott]

Sure. No problem. I'm glad you intend to come back on it. :)

[gabbydott]

What if we shift the focus from the One to the many? If we take the any, but the M-any? Hm?

Am Samstag, 21. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

Gabby , the logic is that One is behind the many , but not the many. The individual is just a fragment or rather an emanation of the One , but not the One. It is the One which is the repository of all knowledge where the infinite beings , the limitless creation, is unmanifest and become manifest when their time comes. Theoretically as all that has been or will be is there in the unmanifest any thing in the past or anything in the future can be known by touching that source. The past, present or the future is all history as it always exists in the One.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 4:03 PM, gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[gabbydott]

Why should that One have the need to hide behind the many, when ever present in past, present and future? I would understand if it wants to hide its shadows there behind the Big Bang, but then we should help the One to find its way out there! Time is now.

Am Samstag, 21. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

The entire universe emanated from something following the big bang , but it cannot be said to be that something rather it is the something which is behind the universe. So the One behind the many. Now all the individuals have come from that something but cannot be said to be that something. Again as all come from that something they are ever present in that, and all past , present and future is just history abiding in that something.

[gabbydott]

First you said it was hiding behind the many, now you are saying it is above all. May I ask what it is that makes you so sure it exists, if the mapping is so complicated? How do we know we are not falling for a ghost buster business model?

Am Samstag, 21. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

The One is not present in the past , present and the future , rather it is time , past , present and future which is preent in the One. The One is above time as it is above all.

[gabbydott]

So you are not talking perspective but matter of factual. Okay.

Am Samstag, 21. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

The conclusion that it exists is a product of logic, Life had to come out of something and what better than the One. It is logical to believe that all come out of One and not the many.

[archytas]

Big bang is not necessarily a creation event RP.  God from logic?  I prefer the ghost buster business plan.  I feel some presence is all.

On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 4:06:12 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

The conclusion that it exists is a product of logic, Life had to come out of something and what better than the One. It is logical to believe that all come out of One and not the many.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 9:17 PM, gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

First you said it was hiding behind the many, now you are saying it is above all. May I ask what it is that makes you so sure it exists, if the mapping is so complicated? How do we know we are not falling for a ghost buster business model?

Am Samstag, 21. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

The One is not present in the past , present and the future , rather it is time , past , present and future which is preent in the One. The One is above time as it is above all.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 7:38 PM, gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why should that One have the need to hide behind the many, when ever present in past, present and future? I would understand if it wants to hide its shadows there behind the Big Bang, but then we should help the One to find its way out there! Time is now.

Am Samstag, 21. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

The entire universe emanated from something following the big bang , but it cannot be said to be that something rather it is the something which is behind the universe. So the One behind the many. Now all the individuals have come from that something but cannot be said to be that something. Again as all come from that something they are ever present in that, and all past , present and future is just history abiding in that something.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:59 PM, gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

The One but the many, the many but the One - does not sound convincing in my ears. Allan, what do you say?

Am Samstag, 21. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

Gabby , the logic is that One is behind the many , but not the many. The individual is just a fragment or rather an emanation of the One , but not the One. It is the One which is the repository of all knowledge where the infinite beings , the limitless creation, is unmanifest and become manifest when their time comes. Theoretically as all that has been or will be is there in the unmanifest any thing in the past or anything in the future can be known by touching that source. The past, present or the future is all history as it always exists in the One.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 4:03 PM, gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey, your spell checker is doing a good job, Allan! :) Thanks.

The compass needle is in balance. Back in balance. As this seems to be your orientational pattern: "bring back information from the totality of all knowledge". God being the representative of the "all knowledge" and therefore greater than the individual knowledge. Did I get that right so far? What leaves me wondering is, how does that understanding match with the One&theMany understanding, which would not really draw the line between the individual and the All, but see the different perspectives as the cause for you seeing God as being greater. Or let me ask differently, how much would you say is the soul the individual representative of the totality of all knowledge? And in how much is the soul equipped with its own compass needle from there?

Am Samstag, 21. Februar 2015 schrieb :

Was thinking about the old testament. Whati don't  like about it is the inaccurate descriptions. Or outright lies but what van you expect from a group of people trying to put themselves above the rest of humanity. I can relate to some of what is recorded because similar things have occurred to me,  which leaves me wondering what really went on.

The story of creation is fasinating especially if you pitch thr time scale and look it as stages..  In its own right it ts a simplified  version of the big bsng theory told to a group of herders/hunter gathers explaining their origin.. Similar in aspects to the stories of how the navajo emerhed on this earth. Both are amazingly accurate.  Personally in my views I tend to be a transendentlist believing that one can actually cross the time/space barrier to bring back information from the totality of all knowledge (which is ever expanding and not stagnant)  because of my understanding of a being greater than myself which I commonly refer to as God. This being helps me retrieve new information in a format you can understand. To me there is a totality of knowledge all contained with a being I refer to as God.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

There was a cyclist on the cycle path while I walked the dogs this afternoon.  First time in ten years.  We have lots of cycle paths and road lanes no one uses in the UK.  Is this a "sign"?  God, if there is one, many or otherwise, seems to have us conscious of being and developing in a peculiar way.  I wonder if her definition lies in the way we are.

[archytas]

They let us talk about god and religion, indeed it was forced on me at primary school.  Some of us are skeptical enough to wonder whether creation stories still influence our science on such as creation events in seriously disruptive, deluding ways.  Science has its clergy with the knowledge and languages that are more excruciating to learn than Latin Mass.  Lay appreciation of science may be little more than being swooned by incense, song and being with others on the same page.

What we don't seem allowed to do is shift to a modern religion of genuine emancipation.  There would be something I could regard as genuine faith in such a move, which would be one against human constructions of divine right.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Feeling of presence is more than most people have Neil.. Personally  I am glad to hear that,  over time you will develop your own understanding. Bike on a bike path there are over17,000 km of bike path in the Netherlands.  Have never seen one with out a bike..  Me see it without a bike would be a problem because that is my usual mode of transportation..  It is not uncommon for walking paths to have  bikes on them.  It seems more people are starting to ride bikes in England.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: The religious atheist

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[archytas]

Well, one more Allan.  Our roads are littered with unused bike lanes.  Must have been EU grants at some stage.

Much of the presence is negative, 'inspired' by propaganda and religious bigotry.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

It is a hindu thing and using hindu logic..   I can follow it to a point then the logical steps become illogical to me. But I am thinking,  considering the options..


Being american  I tend to forget that transendentalism is an american thing.  I would suggest looking it up in wikipedia they give a much better explaination than I can

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>

To: "mind...@googlegroups.com" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: The religious atheist

[archytas]

There are many forms of logic, all with flaws.  We have forgotten a lot about the role of religions in how strangers should be treated.  Logics turn out less rational than we tend to think of them.  There is probably a logic of tolerance, that makes claims of certainty from logic untenable.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Bikes are cool..   I paid a lot of euro for it..  Electric flyer swiss made.. Range of 80 km around 50 miles.. Add a little assistance to make an old man fill a yong buck ready for the tour de france. Except I don't  have the range.   It makes riding enjoyable.  There is a lot in easy range.  
I find my bike much more pleasnt than driving a car..

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[allan...@gmail.com]

You are right thete ..many diffent forms of logic,  it is a matter of the form we are used to and try understand the logic of others.. 
Middle ground is and can be difficult fortunatly everyone is allowed their own view.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Started working on a reply..   But like somethings I write they just disappear and I can't  explain it..

Neil is very correct when he is saying  he feels a presence.  When I reglect upon my personal experiences what I am experience it is a presence that I am interacting with..

Thank you Neil for the very deep insight.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: The religious atheist

Creation is not a work of hand but will , if something manifests and evolves it is the work of will, not necessarily a will like ours and not by a conscious being like us but by the Being which scientists are conjecturing as something before the big bang , the cause of it. To me that Something is God as that is the origin of the universe.

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[Molly]

I agree with Neil's statement that it is sometimes hard to see beyond the apparent horror of the presence manifest. Just as it is hard to not be distracted by the perceived beauty. Somewhere in there, we get caught up in the mental gymnastics of judgment and logic. Life to me, is more peaceful and joyful if I can suspend all of that. I don't leave my car running when I don't need to use it.Yet my car is an integral part of my life. I've found my mind to be much the same, an important mechanism that if I keep it well maintained and stored, is there and running at peak operational capacity when needed. That presence can be experienced much more profoundly with a quiet mind, IMHO

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Agreed

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[archytas]

Some minds were so troubled, suicide was the option on failure to resolve difficult problems (Bolzman supposedly etc).  Skepticism lets us see things might be different (obviously in very real ways on things as atoms or whatever else they divide up as, still leaving what might be important to find), but leaves certainty in a quandary, including certainty about skepticism.  Logics fail to escape this quandary too, though we don't use them in practice to reach certainty - more to know what pathways work and those that don't.  There may be no gods, yet we can also suppose worlds with them and wonder which we think would be better.

Mostly RP, we think theories arise in intuition and a lot of early decisions we make on approximation, choice of mathematical systems, measurement and separating facts from fairy stories - but this too tends to be philosophical work done after the fact.  Any purity of origin is disputable rather than logical.  But it is all much to do with recognising different ways to do things and respect for that difference.  Logical and mathematical systems all seem to have an 'outside' that the inner consistency relies on.

Molly's quiet mind is something of an aspiration.  I don't see the switch the car off metaphor as mind seems very active when we think it's switched off because we have lost awareness.  I am more 'RP' on this in that we need security.  Much mind for me is external and embodied in the social-technological.

Presence, as Allan has just said, is often ineffable.  It is very difficult to relate through inner peace too.

[Molly]

Relating through inner peace does require a different skill set, and can upset everything we have learned about people (and some of what we know of ourselves.) As daunting as a whole new operating system that requires learning all new settings. Once you get through it, you find that people respond differently to you in the same circumstance. The change is in you, not others or the world.

[archytas]

The inner world behind the senses is rarely reported directly or with much honesty.  The external manifest, if we can bear to look, is pretty appalling and falsely constructed.  What relation does this have to any introspective journey we take?  We see such as young Muslim women packing off to join Isil (surely some of the creepiest men on Earth).  There is immediate clamour for more internet control.  Not much thought goes into how this "offer" can make any sense at all.  I have a guess this is connected with the fact we could switch the external off without much detriment, that it voids us of reason.

[archytas]

That's rather to individualistic for me Molly - though I don't disagree with the spirit of it, with reservations about the possibility this could be a construction of govern-mentality in the subjective.  

[archytas]

Not where the challenge lies for me.

On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 12:13:37 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

I don't see the ways Molly uses to achieve inner peace, but have my own methods which can easily be tried by everyone. Whatever you experience lay it at the door of God, and whatever you do lay that also at the door of God. The truth is that God or Nature is primarily responsible for everything. If you do this it is easier to achieve inner peace as feelings of arrogance and depression are replaced by a calmness of mind. When the mind is calm the best ideas come to a person and logic works better, but , of course, you can do this only if you believe in absolute bondage.

[archytas]

I can see what you mean RP.  I was reasonably content with a belief that we were progressing and not much had to matter beyond being a cog in the wheel.  More recently, perhaps over the last twenty years, it seems almost nothing flowing past in the more general world was as represented at all.  

On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 6:24:03 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Every work you do should be a challenge and you should strive your uttermost, but you could still lay it as a sacrifice before God  because you are predetermined by the laws made by god. It is needed to keep arrogance at bay because success mostly gives a swollen head.

Those who are not that fortunate and mostly err in their works get depressed easily and need this safety valve to stop recriminating all the time.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Meditation is a very personal thing.  It has nothing to do with change..
Yes change will occur many people eillbtell you how and all kinds of methods..  Had a person tell me I needed to sit in a lotus position and it was impossible for them to concieve that my nees prevented that..  I could do itand there is a much greater chance of damaging my artificial  knees..
But I don't  see what meditation has to do with success  or failure? To me success or failure is determined how your soul responds to the situations  it finds it self in during  the bodies life time.   Has it done as little hatm as possible.  Has it responded in a loving and caring  mannor and only each soul knows that.. In the reality of the soul it can not hide..   Maybe it can by going where I would not want to go..

 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: The religious atheist

For all practical purposes, the will to strive is in our hands , we can put in effort or let ourselves loose. If you have done well you must be happy and content but not arrogant, similarly if you have not put in much effort and failed to progress you should be dissatisfied but not depressed. That's how I take it, Neil, and yet I have not achieved much in life and can be called a failure by most people.

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[Molly]

If it is truly individualistic, how could it be a construction of govern-mentality? We each must come to it in our own way, and others can only point a way, their way. Anyone using another's way will only get so far, and then be called deeper into self discovery. Even the "its" like meditation (or whirling!) will fall away eventually because again, they are an external method designed to take you into your own self discovery. At some point, there is no separation and that presence is all inclusive. My religion gets close to it with symbols like the sacred heart of Christ and holy trinity, and there are many names for it and symbols in other religions. I cannot get there through the pathway of my religion, but it does give me community and a sense of the sacred, and these traditions are comforting when times are tough.I fell away from religion when I thought I had to take it literally. I came back when I discovered it isn't literal, but symbolic. I may fall away again at some point, but my inner processes for peace are enmeshed in my being now. I fall out from time to time, in midst of personal tragedy or the boss screaming. But I know the way back because I blazed the trail that only I could. 

[gabbydott]

That's right, RP.

2015-02-22 1:22 GMT+01:00 RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

All theories have their base in logic and remain perspective until they are proved, same here. What appears logical to me may not to you, that's the difference in understanding. I might solve many problems using algebra but they might be Greek to you.

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[facilitator]

"Faith-Reason"

"Contentment comes at a very high price, anxiety and fear are often sold to secure the debt"  (™)

[archytas]

There may be little worth 'achieving' in the standard senses.  We tend to like a trier.  Molly talks about a quiet mind and the inner change bringing different external response.  RP has an a priori code to lay matters before god.  I see an interactive process in which consciousness is barely an individual matter of rationality at all. The arguments are ancient, mostly arising in the East and adapted into Greek.  Even the origins of modern science are shrouded in myth (I just typoed 'origons' and felt it appropriate).  In common English usage, RP outlines a 'philosophical approach towards life', though if we look into this there are many.

The presence I feel concerns doing the right thing.  We are not progressing well on this as a wide society and I sense science as a religious code increasingly telling us we need a wider shift in awareness.  This is extremely difficult to articulate, and we end up with many slogan forms of 'education, education, education'.  Plato wrote at least seven books on this.  Education remains mostly a failure.  Essentially, we have become scholastic and sweep difficulties away in mounds of rationalisation.  A lust for simplicity arises.

On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 8:43:59 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

For all practical purposes, the will to strive is in our hands , we can put in effort or let ourselves loose. If you have done well you must be happy and content but not arrogant, similarly if you have not put in much effort and failed to progress you should be dissatisfied but not depressed. That's how I take it, Neil, and yet I have not achieved much in life and can be called a failure by most people.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 12:55 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:

[archytas]

Reminds me a bit of trying to do a Rubik's cube my nephews had rendered impossible by peeling labels off to 'complete' it.  We had a debate today with our current Chancellor of five years being blamed for doing nothing on tax evasion-avoidance and in turn blaming his predecessor for doing nothing five years ago.  Clear proof of just how useless our system is and an argument rather like Tony's shape and lack of colour here.  I suspect a diversion of our faith to the kind of contentment we strive to achieve in domestic herds.

[archytas]

We might ask at what point faith is so obviously delusional as to give it up and whether faith can be given up?  Obviously, religions can be given up at the drop of a conqueror's hat, despite all previous professions of faith.  So do we overdo faith as an internal matter?  Without the external misery, scarcity and so on, would there be much need-demand for inner self-development offered as peaceful light at the end of the tunnel in better external environments?

I don't find people working much on inner integrity and much more on image management and backing down to the chief barker.

[polly skid]

Faith in what?? I know you mean Faith faith, but, speaking of faith.. Why do you think it's tough to have faith in other people...

[allan...@gmail.com]

Interesting  questions Polly, I think the faith we are discussing  is generically  classified as a power greater than we are.

Faith in others. That is an interesting  l)question..  Personally  I try give people the benefit of trust. Until that trust is broken.. A lot of people don't  care if they are dishonest toward others.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: polly skid <r.fre...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: The religious atheist

[archytas]

That is the question pol.  I have faith that lead carbonate will turn yellow at 78 degrees, at least in Earth laboratories.  Spent today cleaning up after my grandson - little faith in him and considering a ban.  I take people as they come.  Not so much about faith in them as hoping they may have common interests - fairly rare for me.  Thee seem to be things to hope for requiring faith.  Most people expressing faith seem to be doing something else to me, in the religious sense.

The big one for me is faith in social systems' claims on what they are really doing and can do.  That looks bleak.  

On Monday, 23 February 2015 20:15:52 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

Interesting  questions Polly, I think the faith we are discussing  is generically  classified as a power greater than we are.

Faith in others. That is an interesting  l)question..  Personally  I try give people the benefit of trust. Until that trust is broken.. A lot of people don't  care if they are dishonest toward others.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: polly skid <r.fre...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: The religious atheist

Faith in what?? I know you mean Faith faith, but, speaking of faith.. Why do you think it's tough to have faith in other people...

On Feb 23, 2015 11:30 PM, "archytas" <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:

We might ask at what point faith is so obviously delusional as to give it up and whether faith can be given up?  Obviously, religions can be given up at the drop of a conqueror's hat, despite all previous professions of faith.  So do we overdo faith as an internal matter?  Without the external misery, scarcity and so on, would there be much need-demand for inner self-development offered as peaceful light at the end of the tunnel in better external environments?

I don't find people working much on inner integrity and much more on image management and backing down to the chief barker.

On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 5:03:43 PM UTC, archytas wrote:

Reminds me a bit of trying to do a Rubik's cube my nephews had rendered impossible by peeling labels off to 'complete' it.  We had a debate today with our current Chancellor of five years being blamed for doing nothing on tax evasion-avoidance and in turn blaming his predecessor for doing nothing five years ago.  Clear proof of just how useless our system is and an argument rather like Tony's shape and lack of colour here.  I suspect a diversion of our faith to the kind of contentment we strive to achieve in domestic herds.

On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 4:23:35 PM UTC, facilitator wrote:

"Faith-Reason"

"Contentment comes at a very high price, anxiety and fear are often sold to secure the debt"  (™)

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Faith in the social system? 

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[archytas]

Religions are closely linked with the treatment of others, including strangers.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Thats true,  I was thinking more of the US political /religious system..   Some churches are very good others not so good because of the golden calf factor..

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[Gabby]

You keep on reminding us, Allan, yes. I'll hurry up. I have started reading up on the United States Declaration of Independence, but the problem is there, they don't use "golden calf factor" and don't base it on religious reasons but on "Laws of Nature". Thank you for your patience.

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[gabbydott]

... and Neil since then is a stranger, Allan, so please be patient there too ..

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Gabby,  Gabby,  Gabby,  the golden calf factor..  (An idea of your creation) is nothing more than a simple reference to the people whose obsession is the gathering of wealth and possessions. A total life style of greed.. 
Yes it is a biblical reference with the wall street stock market bring represented by a huge bull..  Being an old farm boy a male calf grows  up to be a bull.  The mixture of the two realities create the golden calf factor. The worship of wealth as god.. Look around because we are  surrounded  by those that worship money as a "god".
The question is just how important is money in your life Gabby?

[gabbydott]

Oh, that's easy: money plays an existential role in my life. It pays my food and shelter and much more. Which role does it play in your life? 

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Basically  food,  shelter, medical,  TV/internet..  My life is fairly simple,  ..  I don't  have needs for more..

[gabbydott]

Why don't you need it anymore? What is your message to us? You said you are coming from a good educational and financial background, why do you you propagate the simple life now? What is the lesson for us?

[Don Johnson]

Hey, what's the going rate for anxiety and fear? 'Cause I seem to see it in abundance and quite a scarcity of contentment. Unless I misread that and it's contemptment. There's plenty of that to go 'round. Rules of supply and demand tell me bushels of anxiety and fear won't buy a thimbleful of contentment. Preparation is the cure. (thinking of getting this trademarked)

[facilitator]

   Don@     "Hey, what's the going rate for anxiety and fear? 'Cause I seem to see it in abundance and quite a scarcity of contentment".

It's about giving it up in exchange, not getting more of it.  How can that be read any other way?

[allan...@gmail.com]

Anxiety and fear..   Seems they are a staple of life in today's reality.  Wonder just how much of that is generated by politics and news broadcasts along with massive distraction programing ..
It leaves one wondering just what morality is being ¿taight? ¿shared?  in today's world. 

[archytas]

I see you are well up on the currency wars Don.  We'll defo be back to bushels and thimblefuls soon, though the content may be reduced to the virtual smell of a re-hypothecated dead donkey betting slip.

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[archytas]

How do we bushel it up Tony?

[facilitator]

Easy, the bushels are labelled "cannot control" and are found in the Shudawudacuda aisle.