Separatists, separation, independence and freedom

[andrew vecsey]

Dear members, I would like to open up a discussion concerning the right of a people to separate and be independent from whoever and whatever they are tied to, whether it be a partner, a family or a state.
I have 3 examples:- The people of Ukraine, The Palestinians in Gaza, and a friend. All 3 show a determination to separate and be independent, and are ready to fight for their independence and separation. 
My simple solution to this complex problem is to have a referendum and to respect the majority vote. If people do not vote, it should be considered that they do not know or care.
It is far better for partners who do not get along together to separate rather than to fight. It is better as well for their neighbors.
Jesus said that if someone slaps you on your cheek, rather than to slap him back, you should offer him your other cheek to slap. Jesus also said that if you love your enemies, then you will not have any enemies to hate and fear. As long as we follow the eye for eyes and and tooth for teeth system of justice, we will continue to fight to the bitter end. As long as we think that we are better than others, then we will never be able to live together in harmony and peace. It is high time we change or ways and show respect to others.
Are there any examples in any countries in the world where the people want a part to separate but that part refuses and fights for their right to stay?   
    

[facilitator]

Majority vote is not often a good idea.  Majority does not always equal justice.  Should the highest number population wise of a religion force others to become that religion?

In terms of your reference to Jesus:  
 "Jesus also said that if you love your enemies, then you will not have any enemies to hate and fear"   This is incorrect.

    

[andrew vecsey]

Thanks for replying. No one knows at present what Jesus said verbatim. But we do know his message of salvation which 2000 years later has proven to be true. He said that if we do not respect nature and do not love our fellow men, even if they are our enemies, just like they were our family, and if we continue with the eye for eyes mentality and our continuous fighting one another, then we are all doomed. How true that is proving to be.

But lets keep on this topic of what we can do about people who fight to the death for their right to be independent. No one can force you to think and believe something that you do not what to think and believe. Especially when it comes to believing in god. But a country can and does force you to pay taxes,to fight wars, and to talk in a particular language. Is there a better form of deciding something that influences an entire group of people than to vote on it and agree to follow the majority votes?    

[Molly]

Would everyone voting have accurate information on the issues?  this would certainly take a great deal of organization.  If the group is ethnocentric or egocentric, chances are the majority rules method would not be a good idea.  In a worldcentric society where members are able to put the good of the group before their own if necessary, it may work, but this is a highly evolved group.  Here in the US, political campaigns count heavily on herd mentality and voters who are not worldly being swayed by negative and inaccurate information.  Hence, the Koch brother's ability to buy election and a congress filled with politicians for hire.  I agree, the ideal is much greater than the practical application.

[archytas]

No one has the slightest idea what "Jesus" said or whether any historic individual is represented by stories of him.  The ideas are something else and I'd prefer to start with 'The Age of Reason' by Tom Paine.  I'm in strong agreement with Molly here, though wish things were different.  I lived in Beirut before westerners became walking kidnap opportunities and would probably still be there had the troubles not come.  It's time we fessed up on what causes our inability to live in sane communities of peace.  Majority voting has led to such dim-wit conclusions as the Third Reich and Muslim Brotherhood, despite hundreds of years since Spinoza set out the secular state as the only system that could support freedom of religion.  He was quite clear that the constitution in which voting operates needs a lot of consideration.

The population of Palestine before 1900 was 86% Muslim, 10% Christian and 4% Jewish.  No voting happened to allow the Zionist creation of Israel.  The latest Muslim zealots with guns have expelled Christians from Mosul.  There were many attempts by the Athenian Democracy to get over problems we can find in our modern attempts.  We need to find a constitutional way of living in honest fellowship.  It would be interesting to see what we think a modern constitution would be, and whether we would allow a bunch of people who vote for Hamas (now sponsored by Qatar more than Iran) to live within missile range of us in such a constitution.

[facilitator]

The problem, as I see it, is not what type of government but the people who run it.  Power is the drug for which there are few if any who can take it without being addicted to it…no matter what the quantity.  We see this from the school yard to the police and further up every ladder.   There is more money spent here on political meandering than any single drug.   Historically, the only thing that binds people together in harmony is a common enemy.   And yes, people can be forced into believing something.   It's called advertisement.    I can walk into a room of people who have absolutely no idea who I am, walk up to a microphone and tell everyone to please take a seat and they will do just that.  Try it.  

[Gabby]

Ha, the light side of failed shadow integration.

[andrew vecsey]

In Swizerland, referendums are preceded by public discussions in the media by interest groups presenting their pro and con view points.  As well each voting ballot comes with a booklet outlining the pro and con views of what is toi be voted. The Republic and Canton of the Jura is one of the cantons of Switzerland created in 1979 after a referendum of the French part of the canton of Bern separating from the Bern canton.

[archytas]

Many converted to Islam after Ottoman invasions.  Advertising is another will-breaker.  The Swiss have better direct democracy.  We elect perverts and socio-paths.  The world is at war. Economics is quasi-religious thievery.  We remain so ignorant that 99 out of 100 have no idea how money is created or by whom.  Time for a radical rethink.

[andrew vecsey]

A radical rethink might not be so necessary. Things have gotten too big. Too many are controlled by too few. People are trying to sell us the concept of globalization where a few control all.  I suggest that rather than a radical rethink, we go back to when things were smaller. How do we do that? By separation into smaller parts. By separating ourselves from the greedy few who control us. We can separate ourselves from banks as the bitcoin technology allows us to do just that. We can separate ourselves from the food industry by supporting local farmer products. We can separate ourselves from shopping malls by not buying from them. We can vote with our wallets. We can separate ourselves from the military by refusing to serve and kill our fellow humans (like the Jehovah Witnesses do). We can even separate ourselves from the pharmaceutical industry by living healthy lifestyles. We can separate ourselves from the mass media by not watching their advertisements. It is harder to separate ourselves from governments, which is what I wanted to discuss. Should people living in a part of a country be able to separate themselves from that country if the majority wish to separate without having to fight for their freedom and independence?   In nature, when something like a mountain gets too big, it breaks apart and eventually erodes and gets smaller. 

[Molly]

Anyone can separate from a country.  Move to a different one..

[Allan]

That is the way it is normally done except when countries want the land as in the Ukraine's case.

Allan
Living Soul

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[Molly]

Identification often keeps people in conflict so one has to ask - is that person seeking conflict as a native state?  I had a friend that told me people move in one of three directions: with, against or away.  this is true of any group with which we associate ourselves - even this one.  If perceived "ownership" of anything prevents someone from moving on, a change in perception might be needed. Millions of people have immigrated to a different country with what they can carry.

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[gabbydott]

Arrogant, stupid, ignorant, privileged, superpowerful are the adjectives that come to my mind when I hear this.
Let me explain why. We have had a history of "offering" people criticising socio- political power issues on our side of the wall to go over there - on the other side. The cynicism lay in the one way option only and the worse state of things over there.
Another story, here in Crete a shop assistant asked us where we were from, but he was not satisfied with Germany, looking at my son. As if we were liars! So I offered some Africa as well. Now he was pleased. He said he was African too here.
He was from Pakistan teaching us Cretan truth.

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[Molly]

I can see how your interpretation could be true given the German history.  However, moving to another country could be anywhere in the world one felt might be better, in any direction and, depending on the mode of transportation, a multitude of distances.  We choose to move or stay.  Often, our choice effects our socio moral codes because wherever we are, there will be a group around us or a government to the country that will define the culture. The point is that it comes down to the choices we make, more so than those around us, that ultimately define us. Of course, if leaving means certain death, our choices are limited.  I did not hear that in what Andrew was saying.

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[andrew vecsey]

Yes, like the Jews of Egypt did 2,300 years ago. Or like many immigrants did when they immigrated to the Americas. A mass exodus. I was thinking of a more fair and a more doable possibility at present for a greater number of people than just disgruntled individuals. What could people do at present if the majority of them living in one part of their country wish to separate from their government that claims to represent them.  Is fighting for that right their only choice?  Should they not have the right to separate without a fight?

[Allan]

What happens when it is outside instigators and a few bullies claiming to represent everyone. To many masked men running around afraid of facial recognition software. Can they be Russian?
To much propaganda floating around. It seems most of the locals want to live in peace, most seemed not to be interested in being occupied by Russia.

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 4:48 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Separatists, separation, independence and freedom

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[Don Johnson]

"Why can't we all just get along?" The old Rodney King plaintive wail is applicable here. The reason we can't is because we want other people's stuff. The best way to get more stuff and keep our stuff is to organize and become more powerful and numerous. Assimilating surrounding resources is an important step. The Chinese and Russians seem to grasp this concept quite well. El Jefe over here in the States seems to embrace the opposite. 

Sorry if this is slightly off topic but is anyone else getting flashbacks to the 30's and German expansion here? Now it's Russian expansion. We have so many bad things going on it's hard to keep track. Results of "leading from behind."

I sincerely hope we are sending hundreds of thousands of pounds of propane to Europe to prepare them for the war to come. 'Cause Emperor Putin will have no problem cutting the flow of gas to Europe if he feels like it. It sure would be nice to start exporting fossil fuels for a change. 

[Don Johnson]

"Are there any examples in any countries in the world where the people want a part to separate but that part refuses and fights for their right to stay?"

Yes, Israel. The "Palestinians" want the Joos to die. All of them. Hopefully painfully with much nashing of teeth and pulling of hair. I will never, ever forget seeing the celebrations in the streets of "Palestine" while bodies fell from the burning towers on 9/11. Savages. 

I agree with Molly and Neil no amount of "voting" is going to change human nature. Rather then referencing the Koch brothers I'd like to mention Acorn and IRS facist style intimidation tactics that effectively influenced the 2008 election and the 2012 election respectively. Whatever the Koch brothers did it obviously wasn't effective enough to get a Conservative elected. Not even close in the case of 2012. 

The closest thing to a successful "separatist" community here in the States is probably the Amish. They are rich, own loads of land and pay their taxes, export fine furniture and other products and live quiet, simple lives. I have much respect for them. 

I remember reading an article about Muslim communities in GB allowed to practice some form of Sharia law. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587215/Sharia-Law-enshrined-British-legal-lawyers-guidelines-drawing-documents-according-Islamic-rules.html

I'm sure that's a wonderful idea. If I couldda beat my wife openly in the streets I'd probably still be married. 

dj

[andrew vecsey]

"Voting" and "Democracy" as practiced in the USA today has lost their true meaning due to brainwashing and a lack of a real opposition. Getting "voting and democracy" to work is what is needed. Respecting "voting and democracy" to the point of allowing a part of a country to separate and be independent is perhaps the first step.

[andrew vecsey]

In that case, it is best for your children, your x-wife, yourself, your neighbors and anyone and everyone else that you were not able to beat your wife "openly in the streets", and that you are now not married to her. And if you beat your wife behind closed doors, then we should have laws that allow your wife to separate from you should she wish to.   

On Friday, August 8, 2014 12:19:23 AM UTC+2, Don Johnson wrote:

[Allan]

I see that happening a lot. People wanting sheria law. The basic problem lies in the problem like here in Holland our laws actually do not violate sheria law. But and it is a big but sharia law violates our laws.
Those that are violating our laws need to be held accountable for their actions and rulings. Child molestation is not acceptable. Rape is not acceptable. If sheria law violates our laws sheria law is wrong.

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 12:19 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Separatists, separation, independence and freedom

[Allan]

Those laws are in place and enforced. Sheria law does not like that .

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 7:52 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Separatists, separation, independence and freedom

[facilitator]

Like I mentioned before, the only way people will be able to get along is to give them a common enemy.  So far its been East VS West or North vs South.  For the resources at the time the Roman empire had an astonishing period of "Peace on Earth.  Many languages today were some form of Latin.   History will repeat itself.

[andrew vecsey]

Israel does not want a 2-state solution". And I do not think that the Palestinians want that either.
This brings on a 2nd question I would like to propose and discuss. Should neighboring states, (and in this shrinking world we are all neighbours) have the right to vote that 2 parts of a country that are continually fighting with each other be forced to separate? Should neighbors who are disturbed by a continually fighting couple living together under one roof have the right to force them to separate. How about a husband who beats his wife? or a wife who provokes her husband to beat her?

On Friday, August 8, 2014 12:19:23 AM UTC+2, Don Johnson wrote:

[Allan]

Common enemy, that shallowness of thoughht is what is causing many of the problems to day.  That is what sharia law is based on.  Remember you are their common enemy.

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 8:02 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Separatists, separation, independence and freedom

[facilitator]

I am referring to it's efficacy not its isolated practice.

[Allan H]

Unfortunately it is not an isolated practice.
It is easier to cause problems than to stop them. Souls are accountable for their actions, even those that people have no idea what they are saying or actions they are taking.

Allan
A Living Soul

[Molly]

I don't think that opposition is what binds us together - a common reason to be against. Although in cases like the two party US political system it seems to be.  Marshall Rosenberg has been doing great things for decades bringing people together through his Center for Nonviolent Communication.  Our differences, on occasion, may create movement between us.  But so do our similarities.  I think more so.  But that's me - the glass of water (not half empty nor half full) kind of gal.

[andrew vecsey]

Common interest is what unites people together. This interest can change very fast making enemies out of friends and visa versa in a matter of minutes.

On Friday, August 8, 2014 7:35:14 PM UTC+2, Molly wrote:

I don't think that opposition is what binds us together - a common reason to be against. .....Our differences, on occasion, may create movement between us.  But so do our similarities. .....

[Molly]

Anyone looking for an enemy will find one.  Opposition is common and often brings misery. Unity is extraordinary and often brings joy. My mentor was head of the Republican party in our county for decades and a master politician. But one thing he taught all of us lucky enough to be in a position to learn from him, was to unify people to create change. This is a change that lasts, and I can see that many of the grass roots programs that we put into place in the county are still going strong today, powered by people who volunteer their time and money to make their community a great place to live and raise their children. With enough people working together like this, a community is strong enough to endure problems that come up, and resolve conflicts created by those who thrive on opposition and misery. This happened under his watch, and continues to happen in that community, because he acted as a compassionate human being first, and sought to improve all lives in the county, not worrying about affiliations or judgments.  He left that to the political system, one of the strongest in the state. He also did not mind at all that I had no interest in the politics.  A person had to be a republican to hold office in that county it seemed, but to work as a grass roots activist working for the common good organizing communities to support families and children, everyone was welcomed and supported. You might be surprise just how many people in a community fit that description, given conditions to succeed.

[Allan H]

That is very true, usually you find what you are looking for.

As for politics. I remember those days, sadly it started down hill with Reagan. It seems in the US politics has lost its connection  with humanity and for the good of the community. Now it is only for what the politicians can get.

When the republican house voted to sue the president, I wonder if they realize the can of worms they opened. Have they considered that accepting a cup of coffee from a person seeking a political favor is in reality a bribe. All of the house members have gone far beyond that. I think it is referred to as SOP or standard operating procedure. May be they need to be sued for accepting a bribe, hiding it under just doing their job.

Politics has radically changed. 

Allan
A Living Soul


-----Original Message-----

From: Molly <moll...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sat, 09 Aug 2014 2:28 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Separatists, separation, independence and freedom

[Molly]

politics will always do what politics does.  It is by nature divisive. When the voting is over, we still have to come together to implement law in communities and live together. 

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[Allan]

Lol tell that to today's republican party. It seems they have there own adgenda and it is not the best interest of the US.

Allan

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[Molly]

people who make politics their life never do anything but.  I know plenty of politicians who also support family and community.  Every politician affiliated with with Republican party is not as you imply, you are generalizing and applying bias.  No sweat, it is done all the time.  I encourage a different view, but it doesn't change the state of US politics.  I am not so sure it wasn't the same when Washington or Lincoln were president.

[Allan H]

I know it is not as I imply, but their actions in the congress say differently. Example is medical insurance and the excessively high cost hospitals. The republican party leadership has fought it tooth and nail. Like taxing the well off, due to political whips keeping membership with threats and political terrorism.
When income tax was introduced our national debt was $35,000.oo that is not a typo. Since then it has grown into the trillions. When Reagan took over the national debt was right around 1 trillion dollars. During the Clinton era the debt level dropped. During republican administration eras especially when totally the policy was do not raise taxes raise the national debt level let future generations deal with the financial problems of debt they created.
They even created the line item veto so they could eliminate democratic liberal programs. But the second it as against the republican wasteful programs in add on legislation. It was wrong and they immediately eliminated the legislation.

The list goes on and on. Now tell me how they support community and people. The only families I see them supporting is their own personal family, and friends . Communities, unless it is for their getting or financial gain.

The republican party is directly responsible for the majority of world problems today. They are totally lacking in for sight for the benefit of humanity. The democrats are not much better.

American politicians today lack intestinal fortitude aka the BALLS to do what is morally correct. 

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[Don Johnson]

Alan, giving free healthcare to the masses makes hospital and doctor services cost more. The reason for this is simple. Nothing is free. "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." Someone always pays. In the case of the "free" healthcare those paying are tax payers. Not so much the wealthy because they have tax breaks and loops and dodges galore but the middleclass struggling to pay a mortgage, put their kids in schools that aren't dominated by criminals and piss poor teachers, save for retirement so they don't have to live on the dross left over for the huddled masses which our government still calls "social security" ha. (hey this stream of consciousness shit is fun) Notice I didn't even mention trying to send thier kids to college. It's been priced right out of availability unless jr. or ms. princess gets a scholarship and works his/her way through themselves. This Obamacare crap was stupid, was never going to work as sold and is beggering the middle class that is going to pay for it. One need look no further then the VA to see what government run healthcare is going to look like in 10 years. What was the answer for the corruption and poor services and under utilzed assets of the VA administration? More money. That's right, their failure was rewarded with craploads of more cash. I'm getting flashbacks to 2009 when the failure of all the banks and GM was rewarded with TARP. Guess who got to pay for all that? I hate congress. Throw the bums out. 

[Molly]

I know many people who live in the US that hold your view about Washington DC or national politics.  I am talking about local, grass roots politics.  Both exist and are related, but may be apples and oranges in terms of this conversation.

[Allan H]

Interesting Don, before I came to the Netherlands I had am still eligible for VA health care I found it quite good and liked it .was treated well with excellent care provided. Oddly my Dad and I had 1pill (med) in common. His cost $79. Mine the cos was just under $6.  Strange difference. I was a representative of the poor on a Catholic hospital,  during that time it made a profit of over 2 million a year. From what I could see they were always in the black. Both of the cities hospitals were in the black , but they were combined to make them more efficient under a private company, a strange thing happened both hospitals started losing money,, someone was being a vampire tapping into the financial artery sucking them dry.
I was there in Bozeman needed emergency care. The cost was $8,000 for less than 24 hrs.  Nothing major except a responsible insurance company saying that the bill were to be sent to them and within 2 working days the bill was paid. Strange even after the bills were paid I still had demands for payment coming to my parent's home where we were visiting at the time.

Both the medical and legal companies need to be brought under control. Along with the financial community. National medical care is desperately needed. And yes everyone needs to pay for it. That is called being a responsible citizen taking responsibility not avoiding it.

Taxes need to be on a level playing field. Not where the poor bear the burdens. I received my COL increase on my SS payments and I am having to pay 50% of it in tax. We are not the highest rate, but our joint in come is above average. I do not like it much but in truth I need to pay my share. That is what allows for our medical care and other benefits. It is the greedy and corrupt politicians that are causing the problem.

The other problem is people hiding their heads under the sand and shoving the problem off on others.. what can be said. Because I am an expat   what I have to say is just thrown in the trashcan.

[Allan H]

Throw the bums out would be a good start, removing the rich man's and corporate perks out. Set up a repayment plan for the financial institutions to repay the money they were loaned during the financial crisis .. I will guarantee they will not like it. Bring in a true financial tax rate system where you have to pay based on total income. Not just what they could not hide.

Allan
A Living Soul


-----Original Message-----

From: Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>

[Allan H]

Local politics for the most part is good..but they are apples and oranges. The problem lies in the greed related mostly to the national level and it is very controlled like sheep being lead to slaughter. That is all political parties, leaves one wondering where is this strange control coming from. I know it thrives on confusion.

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[Molly]

ultimately, it is all spirit in action.

[Allan H]

lol hmm not so good spirits. ¿souls? ¿lost?

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[gabbydott]

Wherever we are there is a government that will define the culture? Ah well, against that kind of attitude we have shown how We Are The People in our recent German history. And no, I don't buy the friendly separation. You develop in different directions, yes. I find the choice argument particularly often used by those who have not been fairly voted into their ownership status btw.

Am 06.08.2014 23:48 schrieb "Molly" <moll...@gmail.com>:

I can see how your interpretation could be true given the German history.  However, moving to another country could be anywhere in the world one felt might be better, in any direction and, depending on the mode of transportation, a multitude of distances.  We choose to move or stay.  Often, our choice effects our socio moral codes because wherever we are, there will be a group around us or a government to the country that will define the culture. The point is that it comes down to the choices we make, more so than those around us, that ultimately define us. Of course, if leaving means certain death, our choices are limited.  I did not hear that in what Andrew was saying.

On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 3:59:46 PM UTC-4, Gabby wrote:

Arrogant, stupid, ignorant, privileged, superpowerful are the adjectives that come to my mind when I hear this.
Let me explain why. We have had a history of "offering" people criticising socio- political power issues on our side of the wall to go over there - on the other side. The cynicism lay in the one way option only and the worse state of things over there.
Another story, here in Crete a shop assistant asked us where we were from, but he was not satisfied with Germany, looking at my son. As if we were liars! So I offered some Africa as well. Now he was pleased. He said he was African too here.
He was from Pakistan teaching us Cretan truth.

Am 06.08.2014 01:27 schrieb "Molly" <moll...@gmail.com>:

Anyone can separate from a country.  Move to a different one..

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 8:40:32 AM UTC-4, andrew vecsey wrote:

A radical rethink might not be so necessary. Things have gotten too big. Too many are controlled by too few. People are trying to sell us the concept of globalization where a few control all.  I suggest that rather than a radical rethink, we go back to when things were smaller. How do we do that? By separation into smaller parts. By separating ourselves from the greedy few who control us. We can separate ourselves from banks as the bitcoin technology allows us to do just that. We can separate ourselves from the food industry by supporting local farmer products. We can separate ourselves from shopping malls by not buying from them. We can vote with our wallets. We can separate ourselves from the military by refusing to serve and kill our fellow humans (like the Jehovah Witnesses do). We can even separate ourselves from the pharmaceutical industry by living healthy lifestyles. We can separate ourselves from the mass media by not watching their advertisements. It is harder to separate ourselves from governments, which is what I wanted to discuss. Should people living in a part of a country be able to separate themselves from that country if the majority wish to separate without having to fight for their freedom and independence?   In nature, when something like a mountain gets too big, it breaks apart and eventually erodes and gets smaller. 

On Friday, August 1, 2014 10:36:30 PM UTC+2, archytas wrote:

Many converted to Islam after Ottoman invasions.  Advertising is another will-breaker.  The Swiss have better direct democracy.  We elect perverts and socio-paths.  The world is at war. Economics is quasi-religious thievery.  We remain so ignorant that 99 out of 100 have no idea how money is created or by whom.  Time for a radical rethink.

On Wednesday, 30 July 2014 14:10:43 UTC+1, andrew vecsey wrote:

In Swizerland, referendums are preceded by public discussions in the media by interest groups presenting their pro and con view points.  As well each voting ballot comes with a booklet outlining the pro and con views of what is toi be voted. The Republic and Canton of the Jura is one of the cantons of Switzerland created in 1979 after a referendum of the French part of the canton of Bern separating from the Bern canton.

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 12:17:12 AM UTC+2, Molly wrote:

Would everyone voting have accurate information on the issues?  this would certainly take a great deal of organization.  If the group is ethnocentric or egocentric, chances are the majority rules method would not be a good idea.  In a worldcentric society where members are able to put the good of the group before their own if necessary, it may work, but this is a highly evolved group.  Here in the US, political campaigns count heavily on herd mentality and voters who are not worldly being swayed by negative and inaccurate information.  Hence, the Koch brother's ability to buy election and a congress filled with politicians for hire.  I agree, the ideal is much greater than the practical application.

On Monday, July 28, 2014 9:39:09 AM UTC-4, facilitator wrote:

Majority vote is not often a good idea.  Majority does not always equal justice.  Should the highest number population wise of a religion force others to become that religion?

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[Molly]

fairly voted.  You have seen many things I have not for sure. Does an exchange of cryptic barbs pass as communication?

[Allan]

Europe has its problems, cultural differences . Friendly separation is essentially you go your way and I will go mine.
Yes Gabby is right our American is heavily influenced by the federal government if not defined. A recent German example would be the Nazi party. Even more recent look at the influence of fundamentalist Islam that is more of a totalitarian form of government than a religion.
 
Besides spirits influencing the US government?

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <moll...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Separatists, separation, independence and freedom

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[gabbydott]

Why don't you choose to mention the all spirit that is in action in this case here too? Because it is the ultimate conversation killer?-That would be a good reason for a good girl with a good purpose, I say.

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[Molly]

Howard Zinn made a noble attempt to write a more true American history that is slowly gaining recognition - told from the point of view of people who endured the political decisions of their government.  His life's work is magnificent but I wonder if my grand children will ever see any of it in history class. The world political theater is a mess, no doubt. Why wouldn't it be, given the difficulty of coming to consensus in any group?  the group itself makes all the difference.  I've seen cultures of deep corruption and cultures based on good will. My choice is to move with the good, I don't deny it. I'm grateful that I have that choice and realize that not everyone in every circumstance does.  I just watched a movie, "The Book Thief" about the difficulties of good people living in the culture of corruption the Nazi government placed on its people. Great movie about human resilience. The people of Detroit watched the city crumble for a couple of decades with crooks and thugs at the helm. Watching that turn around to the degree that it has is a wonderful sight to behold.  All the crooks aren't gone, but the culture is changing quickly. 

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[andrew vecsey]

All the participants in this discussion except me, as far as I understand, are against giving people the choice to separate and be independent of the country they find themselves in. It seems to me that it means that all the participants that are against this "friendly separation" must be in favor of letting people fight to the bitter end for their separation, and/or for forcing people to stay united against their will.

My question to you all is the following: Do you feel the same way about forcing people to live together against their will also in families like in the case of divorce.

A second question: How about past historic events of "separation" like that in America from the British, or more recently in the eastern block countries in Europe from the Soviet Union'     

On Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:24:16 PM UTC+2, Gabby wrote:

......And no, I don't buy the friendly separation. You develop in different directions, yes. I find the choice argument particularly often used by those who have not been fairly voted into their ownership status btw.

[facilitator]

Again, as I said earlier, both instances of separation US vs Britain and Europe vs Soviet Union were the result of people banding together to conquer the common enemy.  In the case of the family or any other unit of people I don't agree with "forcing" people together.    In terms of "fighting to the bitter end" many world conflicts are resolved by bringing the opposition to its knees.   Conflicts that are never resolved only force the greater destruction over generations of time.  

[Molly]

I agree with Howard Zinn, there is no just war:  http://catalog.sevenstories.com/products/terrorism-and-war 

That doesn't change the fact that somewhere on earth, there is always war.

[Allan]

Zinn is right.

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <moll...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Separatists, separation, independence and freedom

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[andrew vecsey]

To understand you correctly, you prefer to have people fight for their freedom, (like they always had to do in the past) rather than to promote a "friendly separation" possibility that is put to a vote.

[Gabby]

Okay, if you insist, we make it the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

And, yes of course, people should be forced to admit who their family is. Children deserve that. As for territorial separation as a form of gerrymandering, yes, also men's drawing beautiful straight lines through the African continent will catch him up one day.

The internet and social media could help to make things more transparent.

[andrew vecsey]

To understand you correctly, you prefer that the people peacefully accept and keep their union with the country they are in rather than to promote either fighting for their freedom or having a democratic vote on it. 

[andrew vecsey]

To understand you correctly, you prefer to force families to stay together (for the sake of the children) even though one or both parents would rather divorce. As far as your opinion on this at the national level, I do not really understand what your opinion is.  It seems to me that you prefer to have them fight it out (like in the "Good, Bad and the Ugly")

[andrew vecsey]

To understand the rest of this group correctly, you either do not have an opinion on this at the moment, (ie. you don`t know) or you don`t care. 

[andrew vecsey]

I started this discussion because I wanted to know the opinions of the members of this group on this topic. I think I have your opinions now. Now I want to present my opinions on this. I think that with technology that enables people to be informed and to voice their opinions in the form of a vote, a Swiss type of direct democratic referendum should be used to decide if a "friendly separation" is desired by a majority. As the world is getting so small, neighboring states  can try to have an influence in respecting the vote of the majority in this matter by recognizing any separation as a new country. There is just too much fighting to the bitter end to gain independence that I see on both a national level as well as on a family level. For the sake of children, fighting parents who can not resolve their problems should be encouraged to have a "friendly separation". For the sake of all people, fighting citizens who can not resolve their problems should be encouraged to have a "friendly separation"  

[gabbydott]

I appreciate very much your attempt at brushing up my English, Andrew, but no, this is not what I say.

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[Allan H]

I think you are demanding opinions, you live in a very small country, what works there does not work elsewhere. A combination ideas may work. But you have offered no solutions.
I have ideas and I am working toward implementation of them, but they are not open for discussion. Your topic has been discussed, apparently you did not like the responses because they don't fit your ideas.
For me war and violence are not a solution, I may understand why there are problems, that does not mean I approve of the chosen solutions. The best I can do is plant seeds, most people condemn and ridicule. That is their problem, everyone's soul has the right to respond to 'do no harm' as hey see fit. It is not my place to condemn their interpretation, they are responsible for themselves, just as I am accountable for my actions. Sadly denial is not an excuse.    

Allan
A Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Separatists, separation, independence and freedom

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[Molly]

It will be interesting to see if facilitator's view of people banding together to respond to a common threat or enemy doesn't come to pass quickly here with North Korea publicizing their missal testing in such a big way.  Hold on to your hat, pontiff.

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[Don Johnson]

Andrew, it's impossible to compare a divorce with a war. (Which reminds me of a very good book "The War Of The Roses.") When many people are involved it makes the situation completely different. All of the folks in the "voting block" of the new proposed "country" are not going to think the same way. if a group of folks already share borders, language and culture why would they want to separate? I would assume it was to go ahead and do something those they are separating from don't think is a good idea. Like rape the land with strip mining or cutting down all the rain forests or building cheaply constructed strip malls. Would it not be far better to try agreeing on zoning laws rather then taking the drastic measure of seceding? I could qoute John Donne on islands and clods washing away but I'd rather stick with bigger is better. Allowing your citizens to willy nilly secede seems very poor policy. Talk with them, work with them, listen to them but no way do they get to run off with real estate. Uh uh. Nope. 

Now, if you don't share a border, or a language, or a culture and you've conquered the land and taken needed resources you were unable to bargain for successfully before war and set up a puppet regime to do business with after you've gone then I can see a separation. I mean, who wants India anyway? I mean, they worship cows for christsake. 

dj

[RP Singh]

Whether you worship a rat , a pig , a cow or an abstract God , it is the same thing. Worshiping someone or something shows that you are insecure and apprehensive and have little faith in your capabilities. Otherwise why worship? It is you who are interacting with the environment and if you are not getting a good response , it is better to understand your environment than to pray and worship some power which you cannot even see.

[andrew vecsey]

I do not see what your reply has to do with the topic being discussed. But thinking about your reply, I suppose I can see myself worshiping freedom.

[RP Singh]

If you looked at the post to which I responded you might see the relevance , further I don't believe that you can worship a non-entity.

[andrew vecsey]

Sorry about that RP. Now I see the reference to what you were replying to. Why is it not possible in your mind to worship a non-entity? Is not God that most people worship and understand a "non-entity" by the common definition of that word?  And how can you defind what people can worship and not worship? I find "freedom" to be divine and sacred and worthy of worship, revere and honor. I find freedom also worthy of fighting for.

On Sunday, August 17, 2014 5:23:27 PM UTC+2, RP Singh wrote:

If you looked at the post to which I responded you might see the relevance , further I don't believe that you can worship a non-entity?

[RP Singh]

Freedom is not an object or a subject , it is a state. If a person gets obsessed with an idea he can claim to do just anything , it doesn't matter if he is talking for the sake of talking , without logic and substance. Go on friend people love freedom , you can do better and worship it.