Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

[Chris Jenkins]

Just so we're all on the same page, can you go ahead and define exactly what a consciousness is?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:05 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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[Chris Jenkins]

Moogle-de-poogledy is an attribute of life and needs no further description.

Do you see why that's not an effective line of conversation?

What is conciousness? Do plants have it? Does it require sentience?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:10 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness is an attribute of life and needs no further description. Without consciousness there would have been no life , and so it is life itself.

[Chris Jenkins]

Why do we have to be satisfied with your explanation when we haven't even determined what that means?

You began a thread called consciousness, and then won't even take the first steps to try to establish a common ground on the idea?

Let's start with the simple question: do you believe plants have consciousness?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:18 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think you will get an answer to this in the near future and maybe not in your lifetime , and so we have to be satisfied with my explanation -- it is an attribute of life , a real one , and not jumbled up.

[archytas]

We may have no consciousness and an evil genie might be making us think we have.  I find inferred consciousness is easily removed by a heavy blow with a pick-axe handle.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 3:10:05 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Consciousness in others is inferred and not known or proved so it might be that even atoms of elements have consciousness. I cannot even prove that you have consciousness it is merely inferred that you have it.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why do we have to be satisfied with your explanation when we haven't even determined what that means?

You began a thread called consciousness, and then won't even take the first steps to try to establish a common ground on the idea?

Let's start with the simple question: do you believe plants have consciousness?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:18 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think you will get an answer to this in the near future and maybe not in your lifetime , and so we have to be satisfied with my explanation -- it is an attribute of life , a real one , and not jumbled up.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Moogle-de-poogledy is an attribute of life and needs no further description.

Do you see why that's not an effective line of conversation?

What is conciousness? Do plants have it? Does it require sentience?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:10 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness is an attribute of life and needs no further description. Without consciousness there would have been no life , and so it is life itself.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just so we're all on the same page, can you go ahead and define exactly what a consciousness is?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:05 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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[Chris Jenkins]

Or a request for definition, apparently. 

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[archytas]

Thoughts in no way imply a thinker, yet  most of us believe consciousness is something the individual possesses.in a virtual system produced in the skull by the brain, yet we seem to be in a wider creation that may be conscious itself, perhaps of itself.  Here we are, tiny specks in a cosmos so big and running away from us -one wonders why we would be conscious of it.  Plants know pain and 'scream'.  Squeeze a rock and you find bacteria that translate energy directly into their systems.

One response to such uncertainty is to force a certainty on the area - a fairly typical religious reaction to bring comfort.  We have even had false consciousness without knowing what 'actual' consciousness might be.

All our thinking is hypothetical in some way.  Reality is a hypothesis.  For instance, do I see:

1. a real blue book

2. dream a blue book

3. hallucinate a blue book

4. see a blue book because an evil genie mediates reality so I do

I forget the rest of the list.  I go for realism, but even this has critical or structured components.  What I know influences what I can sense and experience as a conscious state.  Some squiggles in a computer read out from Hubble pointed at deep space may look like warp signatures leaving our universe to an even deeper dark attractor to me, given my knowledge of Relativity.  I've actually seen the 'data' and it's all squiggles to me really.  I'm relying on better informed explanation.

I can see elegance in RP here.  Playing cricket, I might admire the elegant cover drive and then rough him up like Chris above, with a few short-pitched 'chin music' deliveries.  Elegant theories have to withstand the short stuff of reality and rarely do.  In laboratories we refer to wanting RP's level of comfort from a theory as 'waiting for a blow job from God'.    

Some people seem to think newsrooms are based around "news".  In my head (consciousness) they are about manners, sex, ruthless removal of the disabled, fat and ugly, gossip and propaganda.  Disgust is my major feeling about newsrooms.  We do not all seem to think this.  Why would our consciousness be different?  

[facilitator]

You can only be conscience of self.  You cannot determine if others are conscious.  Nor can you speak to a group conscience.   

[allan...@gmail.com]

There are many differ levels of conciousness.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 2:05 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Consciousness

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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[archytas]

Absolute rot Tony.  Not that I can know of course, owing to no access to your consciousness.  Group consciousness seems to be demonstrated in mob behaviour and brain scans and I'm speaking of it.  Let me put you in an MRI scanner and give you a maths test, or lock you in a room and not let you out until you demonstrate your consciousness to me.  Why would you radiate your conceptual art if not for my consciousness conscientiousness to other;y receive it?

What lies in that dark skull of the other, lit as a virtual world?  Amazing difference as you see 'lines' I never do (thank goodness) and yet given we share so much biology (unless being regally stiffed by an evil genie), a lot we'd expect to be the same, like television sets receiving and tuned in to the same signals.

And on biology, what is it walking around as human?  We carry more micro-organisms around with us than our own cells on a quantitative basis.  Television screens have pictures to those of us not blind.  

[allan...@gmail.com]

That is a very possible reality..  the problem is the evil genie making us think we have consciousness would mean the evil woild have to possess the attributes he is making is think we possess.
It us said more happened in the 1st second of creation than all the time has passed since.

Commonly in the belief system the overall consciousness is refered to as God (or some variation of the name). Due to free will given to all souls and beings the conciousness is ever expanding like the rest of the ùniverse demonstrates.. 

As for a common definition one needs to turn to a dictionary.
CONSCIENTIOUSNESS

noun (uncountable)
• The state or characteristic of being conscientious.

CONSCIENTIOUS

adjective
• Thorough, careful, or vigilant; implies a desire to do a task well.

 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

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[allan...@gmail.com]

News rooms  at their best  my vote is for 'Gossip' may be they should be renamed to the more appropriate Gossip Room!
Tnx fir the thought Neil.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

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[allan...@gmail.com]

There are many many levels consciousness.  As rock who knows all about the long hard grind after carrying the weight of a glacier on his back. Now he passes his time quietly on my workbench.
Unfortunately the dictionary is the common starting point. From where you have to begin building. Chris is right..  your definion is simply not thought out or developed. Mumbo Gumbo does not cut it in an honest discussion. 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

Allan , it is consciousness. What you are seeing the dictionary for is something completely different.

[archytas]

What else do we pay you for RP, other than to give us total answers?  There is no definition really - we are guessing in this particular game.  It's pretty tricky to define oxygen without the rest of chemistry.  It was phlogiston once.

Allan's right that if we invent evil genies they have properties.  To some extent we can see the world through the eyes of another if they tell us about it or do something like Tony's artwork.    Language seems to have some collective consciousness role, even if we are often at odds with it or bewitched by it.  Hard to see language arising privately

Given how much we copy others, is consciousness ever our own?  I can't really see that the same dull academic book or fiction pot boiler repeated a thousand times comes from a thousand original subjective minds,

Sometimes things are defined by what they are not, by what's in or outside a boundary, in a closed or open system, by what use it is in explanation, prediction, comforting we lost souls ...

Telepathy used to be mystical and fail.  Now we have radio and its extensions.  I could pay for a beer for Chris to drink 3000 miles away and understand some of the relish in his description of the experience on google plus.  Somehow I am not that interested in his consciousness when more direct personal experiment is possible.  More interesting, perhaps, is that taste seems to change in near zero gravity.  I hardly know that because I've eaten there.

If Tony starts having the same consciousness as me would there be any point in both of us?  Some choose to live without running water in order to change consciousness.

What is in consciousness we might not admit to?  Is, for instance, pornography an example of what lurks?  Is talk of god just a polite distraction? 

I don't agree we will never know what consciousness is.  We don't know what we will know in the future.  I'm conscious we should start building a better material world to be conscious in - that might change consciousness for the better. 

  

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:11:29 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Allan , when you know so much about such things why don't you give a valid definition of the concept "Consciousness". And it was Chris who was calling it Mumbo Gumbo and not I. I think that I have given quite an honest definition of  such a subjective concept as definitions go. It is upto others to give a better meaning. If I have started the thread it doesn't mean that I alone have to satisfy the group.

[archytas]

It could even be RP that some disaster in, say, 50 years, which a little change now might help us avert, brings the end of humans.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:57:09 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

What would be there if there were no laws of nature --mayhem everywhere , chaos , destruction , anarchy. What if all laws fail ,annihilation--and it might be that the universe will end that way.

[archytas]

We have come a long way from Descartes, whose ‘I think therefore I am’ was a hallmark breakthrough in the celebration of human consciousness and human-centred history making. Today’s cogito ergo sum equivalent would read more like this: ‘I think I exist, or at least there’s an app that proves I exist because it generates data which can be analysed and presented back to me so I can make more sense of my life.’

I'm not worried by AI yet - more that we don't use enough of it.  Machines can feedback into what we are and improve it.  We have some limited software that does biofeedback involved in attempts to let children better see their own poor behaviour and help them correct it.  Much we could do with machines is prevented by economic interests.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 2:27:26 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

It could be that AI robots might have consciousness like us , if they are recognizing objects , seeing , hearing , etc. then probably they are aware and as such have a consciousness like us. After all aren't we all automatons following our biological guidance , seemingly free but bound by hundreds of forces within and outside our bodies. What if robots are given the creative urge , then might not it be the enslavement of humankind like in comics when we were kids. Neil , I think Hawking and Gates might be genuinely worried about the future AI's and the subjugation of humankind. Sometimes it is good to believe in God because we can always hope that he will protect the creatures he has created from their own folly in playing God.

[allan...@gmail.com]

lol  oh my gosh I in trouble..
Actually the roots of conciousness go way back RP ..  like most things it really is a matter of perspective.  My perspective of God as I understand him comes from my childhood and a series of psychotic episodes (none involving drugs) I chose to call spiritual experiences..
It is all a matter of perspective .. my personal understanding my perspective.

Consciousness has many levels most is best guess just what we precieve.. there are more questions than answers  maybe starting with just what is the consciousness of a rock..  take my Rock carried the weight a glacier as it dragged him down the mountain.. it shaped his character of strength as it wore him down to a mere 1.4 kgs  I can only imagine his mass when his journey began.
Just what is Rock's perspective on consciousness?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

Allan , when you know so much about such things why don't you give a valid definition of the concept "Consciousness". And it was Chris who was calling it Mumbo Gumbo and not I. I think that I have given quite an honest definition of  such a subjective concept as definitions go. It is upto others to give a better meaning. If I have started the thread it doesn't mean that I alone have to satisfy the group.

[Chris Jenkins]

I do think your definition was honest, RP, but it wasn't a definition which communicated an idea to a listener, so as such, it doesn't work. I know what color blurpeline is, I can see it in my head, but if I tell you that my wall is a nice shade of blurpeline, you don't see it in your head. 

Now, I could say that blurpeline is an irridescent blend of purple, orange, and brown, which slowly changes tint as light is panned across it, and you could have said that consciousness is the phenomenon by which non-passive organic life appears to be self aware, and although both definitions are not perfect, they could provide a starting point for the conversation. 

Instead, you fell back to "the definition is self-evident". But when a concept is only self-evident it to yourself, that's as far as the picture in your head will travel. And that's why I had to push on you a bit...just to try to understand your meaning. 

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 4:11 AM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Allan , when you know so much about such things why don't you give a valid definition of the concept "Consciousness". And it was Chris who was calling it Mumbo Gumbo and not I. I think that I have given quite an honest definition of  such a subjective concept as definitions go. It is upto others to give a better meaning. If I have started the thread it doesn't mean that I alone have to satisfy the group.

[Chris Jenkins]

You're taking a big risk putting Descartes before the whores. 

Sorry, any opportunity to use that punchline...

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[Chris Jenkins]

And I'm still waiting for that beer, Neil. Although, it's early, and I'm sipping an espresso. But tonight, tonight, tonight...whooooooaaaaaaaahhhhhh. 

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[facilitator]

Of course it's absolute rot Neil !   It's called entropy and that is a given.  I don't think the quote will ever be: "We think therefore we are."  Only god can say "WE"  IE: "Let us make man in our image".

 I will artistically, however in the future, Imagine a courtroom where guilt can be established by switching the consciousness of another.  "Yes I did it, now get me the hell out of his head!

[allan...@gmail.com]

Ah to leave tony to his descent into his entropy

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

[archytas]

When things are all perspective one wonders why we talk at all.  Let the baby grip the burning coal - it's all perspective.  We have no right to do that educational stuff.  Nagel did the stuff on the rock in 1974, but chose to ask us to imagine what it was to be a bat.  I understand his class threw themselves out of the nearest window and to go to a cave party.  It was a fourth floor lecture and none survived, owing to a miscalculation on the speed of evolution in providing wings on the way down.  I survived owing to perspective.  Say bat to me and I think cricket.

What would consciousness be if each perspectivalist was aware they would be taken from the hive and shot unless they couldn't convince the others of their view?

[archytas]

So imagine us all as a jigsaw, each with a piece to contribute to the whole picture.  Mean not to share - though when you run games with undergrads, the sharing penny usually only drops after you tell them it was responsible for their failure in the exercise.  Smug solipsism rules.  Though what a jigsaw might do with a full picture sounds a bit limiting, jigsaws not having consciousness unless made from Allan's rock.

What, by the way, is the consciousness of a bunch of social spiders bringing down a bird for dinner?

Chemicals affect consciousness - Chris is the expert on human experimentation here - in animals this is affected by parasites and chemicals.  The rubber-masked aliens who rule this planet moved on from chemical control years ago and use the easier to deliver propaganda now.  This has side effects, which is why Allan is eating rock as he slides down the glacier

[archytas]

That's all true RP and part of what many of us are conscious of - though I think governments beyond thinking.  Whether we know what consciousness is or not, we often talk of needed change in it.  I'd go for creating something that removed us from grim material competition - but some have it we would lose all motivation in such a state.

We avoid the real morality, perhaps by talk of unattainable abstracts like a definition of consciousness.  Good start RP.  Maybe Allan will have something to say once he's finished chewing his rock?  I think we need to go deep green on materials and far more compassionate spiritually.  If this actually happened in our lifetimes we'd know consciousness can change.  Love is fine, but expecting it from horrible people is usually not a good strategy.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 1:18:35 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Neil , since we know that it is our biology which is acting out and that what we are doing it is the gogs which are working shouldn't we be more tolerant , think of ways and means to address questions of terror ,rage , etc. with a more humanitarian way than to meet violence with violence , shouldn't we meet hate with love and understanding knowing that our brethren know not what they are doing , shouldn't we be more compassionate , is retribution the only way , force the only answer , no Neil , our Governments must think of other options.

When our children do wrong we try to help them by counselling because we love them , couldn't we do the same with others knowing them to be our ignorant brethren , couldn't there be some way to make them realize that their philosophy is wrong , their attitude wrong , we must try and seek alternatives otherwise this monster of terror will never die but rise a hundred times with each drop of bloodshed.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:37 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:

[allan...@gmail.com]

Saddly you can only help those that want help. ŔP often times those drunk with power oveŕ other do not want help.

[Chris Jenkins]

*laughing* I don't know about "expert" as much as "willing to experiment". 

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Smug solipsism rules.  Leaves me wishing my english was better. When I looked up the word  it is very true in reality.that brings feelings of great sadness visually seeng donkey nodders imitating their heros.
As for consciousness I sense there are many different levels of conciousness.. yet we are using a single term to cover all levels of awareness.. as for Rock I found in our farm feilds. Once you understand the glacial effects it is not had to spot. Probably like many others sometimes work is a long hard grind and not at all of which are not pleasant. When look at Rock and see the effects of the glacier ice had on him.. I can visualise Rocks long hard grind then it becomes easier to get off the pitty pot and return to work with a smile knowing that my grind is short.
Due to my response to outside circumstances i was in a position where outside propaganda did not have the effects of long duration subliminal input. My soul was free to expand into its own direction with minimal outside input.
That brings back the original topic what is consciousness.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

I think real consciousness and morality can be obtained on smaller levels in small groups cooperating for common good.. 

But that is easy to condemn because it requires change. That change requires a long hard grind.  Ask rock.(",).

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Experimentation requires direction.

[archytas]

You are spot on on the multiple definition of the word consciousness Allan.  Most words vary a lot in use.  The "ants" may have us all working for them as they do in brood parasitism - and watch out for those cunning rocks!

Whatever we mean by the term it is obvious "they" try to alter consciousness.  In ants we can spot the chemical used and even replace queens with glass ones and get the same behaviour across the nest with chemical signals.  I've done the West African secret society rituals, which must be a bit like a barbecue round at Jenkins' place without fears you have kuru afterwards (transmitted by cannibalism).  Herds of domestic animals can lose 20% of body weight in the presence of a predator and there are huge changes in hormone levels in some monkeys when boss monkey is around.  Spectators of losing teams have lower testosterone levels than winners and sex has many chemical change associations.

The idea we can change consciousness through argument seems an unlikely starter when one considers the chemical nature of much interaction and cultures held together by very odd ideologies.  The key may be in recognising that we start from the wrong place in over-stating our rationality.  Rocks at least don't pretend this and nor do advertisers.   

[archytas]

Are you offering to be Director of Chris' experimental programme Allan?

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 9:05:07 AM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

[archytas]

All sorts of quantum mysteries remain unsatisfactorily resolved, but maybe the rest would succumb if entanglement does. Entanglement occurs in systems with widely separated parts that share a common history; a measurement of one of the parts reveals what you will find out when you measure its distant relative. Entanglement is a fact of nature, well-established by experiment. It suggests that time and space do not constrain quantum phenomena the way they do ordinary human activity. Among the latest intriguing aspects of entanglement to be studied involves black holes. It seems that black holes can be entangled, which apparently is equivalent to their being connected by a wormhole. Related work suggests that space, time and gravity are all part of a vast quantum entanglement network. Since both the evolution of networks and quantum entanglement fit nicely into game theory, solving all sorts of mysteries might boil down to viewing the world from a game-theoretical perspective. But maybe that will still be too hard for human brains — it might take advanced artificial intelligence, which, in turn, might be created with the help of some version of quantum game theory.  

In M-theory we are the shadows on Plato's famous wall. The `room' is some larger, five-dimensional spacetime and our four-dimensional world is just the boundary of this larger space. If we try to move away from the wall, we are moving into an extra dimension of space - a fifth dimension. In fact, people have recently been trying to think of ways in which we might actually experimentally `probe' this fifth dimension.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1407.6552

Looking in perspective, the historical development of tensor network methods has followed different periods.  One could talk of an initial “statistical mechanics” era underpinned by results in exactly solvable models around the 60’s and 70’s. After that period we could say that a “DMRG era” started in the 90’s with the explosion of White’s DMRG for 1d systems and subsequent applications. Later on, around 2000’s one could talk about the advent of a “quantum information era” with the many results on many-body entanglement and further TN developments.  As for today, one could perhaps talk about a new “quantum gravity era” of TNs that is just starting. In fact, it looks like important physical objects, such as curved space-times and quantum Hamiltonians, emerge naturally from entanglement in TN states via holography.

I don't know if anyone will have read this far.  Gabby's Theorem of logical dogs chasing their tails will appeal more to some.  Consciousness without such complex maths as tensors may be preventing us being conscious of the universe of shadows we actually walk in.  We may not recognise ourselves in this 'mirror' and be as self-aware as we think a dog is when it doesn't recognise itself in one.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Me a director. . I don't know how good I would be. My preference has always been in the trenches.
Chris' s expermental programis probably a good idea..there would need to be a lot of planning to be done.. that objective might be good one for the ME collective community to take on, seeing where it leads.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Quantum  entanglement in a fascinating idea especially when it comes to consciousness. How would entanglement across the levels of consciousness?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Why does a state of awareness have to be restricted to organìc matter RP?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

I don't understand all this talk of consciousness as if it were an entity , to me consciousness is simply a state i.e. awareness , and what is aware is the organism. It is like  a sweet which is pleasurable but is pleasure an entity , no it is not , it is simply a quality and the sweet is the entity. So the question is what is consciousness? It is a state of the organism like the dream-state , sleep-state and awake-state. And awareness is strongest in the awake-state of the organism and in the sleep-state awareness is very nominal. So what we are trying to define is a quality and not an entity , so how do you define a quality , can you define pain , pleasure , sweet , sour and such other abstract things , no you cannot!

So as definitions go we can only say that consciousness is a state of awareness of an organism and is an attribute which can be understood and not defined.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Could quantum entanglement explain avatars like Jesus, Buddha and others?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 2:57 PM

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

[archytas]

My physics is only layman stuff, though I feel some religious connections in it Allan.  Biology is currently into a framework of co-evolution that can sound like various 'battles in heaven' stories. a sort of arms' race.  I can say a lot of experiments that work and give us good explanations leave me with questions that might be put as 'where and how is consciousness outside me operating'.  'Spartacus' ants that rebel against the brood parasite by killing their young are dooming themselves, yet helping their own species.  We have some idea of the chemicals involved - yet what of the inter-connectedness of it all?

I generally don't like religion - but what bit of it would I mean, as the term is as subject to multiple meaning as consciousness?  Science may be some kind of avatar in Allan's sense.  We are about to allow so-called three-person babies in the UK.  The work concerns women who pass on lethal and disabling mitochondrial genes.  Let's say Jane has these and thus can't have healthy children.  Now she could have an egg fertilised by her partner and placed in a cell from a second woman without the mitochondrial problems.  The vast majority of any offspring would genetically come from the parents, with a little from the lovely donor and passed on to future generations.  I prefer the science avatar in such decision making.  Criticism from our two main churches is actually rather reasonable - is it safe, do we really know what we are doing - a long way from some of the vile anti-contraception and abortion stuff around that seeks to make feminism a kind of evil mediated against life.  But surely we don't want cranky men wearing skirts and swinging incense making these decisions?

RP is a bit of an avatar on peace, Gabby and Molly in different ways (at least to me).  Entanglement resolution might give us more idea on how ideas themselves come about, what the role of such sweeping stories as Jesus and the rest is.  Argument often seems to me to be rather like sitting down talking sweet things on peace with Genghis Khan on the other side of the river.  We have to make avatars work where they don't, perhaps by better holographic projection more aware of competing and cooperative forces.  Questions of our own role in creation are involved.  Thoughts seem to have no substance, yet arise in it.  In short, help me out someone!

[archytas]

With the atoms or whatever particles we admit to, it's not so much whether they have awareness but that what we are aware of is less than what is going on.  What then of human interactions!

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 10:38:03 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

I don't know , Allan , what is aware and what is not. I can know only that I am aware and for the rest I can infer that they are so. Maybe even atoms are aware.

[Sue Linda]

consider  consciousness.  The endless pursuit of humanity all threw history.  To find such, is a inner exploring of who resides inside the body you call self.  There is no standard to  consciousness for the life of each has experienced very different events in life that taught them to perceive their own reality and truth by such.  It would seem to reason than that to actually find truth in  consciousness is to realize that in this school of life on this planet, is designed to teach each by experience.  Than in a twist of learning this of self and that others are also no different than you other than the experience, I would think that the only thing left to say is have compassion on all, for we do not create our own life until we realize that this is true.  I would also state, that once you come to a place of compassion for All humans, than the release of seeing differences is dissolved.  Life then can begin for the first time as the self then would choose to live each day without remembrance to the past experience.  Without past recall, then future projections are absent for there is nothing that can be judged by past experience.   Consciousness then would be a daily revealing met with a world of no expectation of evil or of good.  Like a child who just lives in the moment.  

[archytas]

I see kids being very cruel to animals and themselves as well RP.   I agree on the demons and believe them real in some ways - clearly in effect.  And the insanity.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 11:54:36 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Mostly we don't even think of awareness , it is just taken for granted. Little children don't know the term but interact with others and know automatically what is conscious and what is not. They can easily break their toys but not their pups , they are ever so affectionate with the living and cruel with the inanimate. If we continue to think of ourselves as spirits the confusion will remain , we must think of ourselves as organisms and the First Cause as the Spirit. So we are all mortals and it is only the Spirit which is immortal , then and then only can we have a semblance of sanity. It does not take much to go beyond sanity , the breaking point is very near. In many instances I can be called insane when I talk of ridding ourselves of the demons and think about solutions as if the governments of the world even know that I exist.

[Sue Linda]

in your considered thoughts, the state of life would be more like a child like mind who knows nothing of death, nor of life but enjoys each moment that arrives.  It is only by the events of evil works brought on a child does it lean the effects of danger.  Consider children as our teachers.  Before they learn of "evil" that being events that cause harm, the child only lives in the moment and acts of "evil" on another child is rare.

[archytas]

Welcome Sue.  Interesting points.  Have to agree your statement on the point of compassion.  How we achieve that seems the difficulty.  I often think we could live more as we organise school, though without some of the overbearing teachers I remember and with better control of the bullies.

[mehlisue]

Thank you Archytas for the welcome. Indeed "How we achieve that seems
the difficulty." In simple terms, it is a bowl of twisted spaghetti
noodles and difficult to sort threw. Not impossible, but difficult as
one has to look at self and that is not pleasant many times. I reason
from my own experience, that one does not take on that journey until
they reach a place of "brokenness" and actually reach out and ask that
power of life for help and guidance. In my own experience, that has
not been supplied by any man ruled spiritual belief system. Such is
constructed by ego of each leader who expresses their own thoughts by
their own life experience and others agree and follow what such a
leader expresses. Starting again the entire cycle of living life by
the group experience based on the reality on one or in some cases
several individuals. It would reason then, that there is ONE being
needed and be far removed from human influence that would guide and
instruct for that individual as they need. Each person being just a
part of a puzzle and only a piece of the puzzle, can not see the
completed picture. I would then reason that then the ability to
become compassionate to all humans knowing we are all in the same
state and all are a part of the whole picture would only begin to show
a candle flicker of light to change. The possible beginning to such a
event could be reasoned as a "virus" if I may use that example.
Compassion, love, has a stronger influence on the elements of this
planet. Such were the experiments of Dr. Masaru Emoto's effects of
positive emotions and negative emotions on enviroment including other
humans. It could be a reason that to return good to evil was given
and as well, that there is no Law against love.

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[archytas]

Considering children as our teachers sounds very interesting.  In a sense, literature has done some of this with the 'noble savage' theme - though anthropology tells us primitive societies are very violent, even when we factor war into ours.  Kids enjoying each other, like my dogs meeting their pals in the park, always moves me. 'Buster' is a particular friend of my two.  One has to do something to organise children's play (and the dogs') and eliminate obvious dangers.  This includes difficult reasoning on not over-supervising.  We make provision for the future, rather than live every day as it comes.  I think we have become neurotic on how we do this and should be providing security in order that we can be more in the moment and not worrying so much.  Sadly, much living in the moment is consumed with the wrong things already.

[mehlisue]

I agree Archytas. A bowel of spaghetti noodles.

On 1/31/15, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:

[archytas]

Delightful Sue.  It's dawn here, so I'm a few minutes away from dogs fussing about their walk.  Max will pounce on me as I reach for my boots and then insist on 'conversation' all the way to the park.  Then he will run off about a mile to the top of a hill, king of all he surveys.  We should be organising life for moments like this, but I fear we don't.  I think a lot of what is broken is business and why we engage with it.

> minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[archytas]

If one of our old members, Pat, was here, he'd be straight into his favourite 'string theory' from physics on mention of spaghetti.  It' still a sortable or at least eatable mess in my view.  I can't think of consciousness these days without some kind of spaghetti-like web - yet we don't seem to have control over the processes that matter, other than in the hands of people and seeming inevitability we don't want.  Dogs now on their marks, so must go.  Good to see you here.

> minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Who knows  I drive my doctor nuts because I'm aware of being sick before it shows up..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

I don't know , Allan , what is aware and what is not. I can know only that I am aware and for the rest I can infer that they are so. Maybe even atoms are aware.

On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 10:31 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[allan...@gmail.com]

The Avatar in the Hindu sense is a person with a special connect to God. Pretty simple..  noy of the science or movie concept.

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[archytas]

I know Allan.  If something like avatar ideas come from entanglement and we could show how, less faith in what they have to say would be needed than in usual sales pitches claiming a direct line to god.  The topic of avatars has some parallel with memes and the competition of ideas through time.  Some of us are inclined to think those who speak with god are lying.  

Sue Linda seems to have some interesting contributions.  The possibility of having a more child-like consciousness should appeal to both of us now we have worked out the Earth is ruled by ants!

[allan...@gmail.com]

Animals have a great abillity to escape.  I tend to keep Joey away from children as they do not have full control ofor know their muscle strenght.. joey's recommends keeping kids away ..she is cute and cuddlt at same time can be hurt very easily.. her bones though strong are not very big.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Welcome to the Group Sue.. babies only respond to their enviorment. Saddly it is the environment parents create for the children live in create the problems. But what do you expect when you park them infront of violent television programs  or provide electronic war games. What can you expect for their responses to life.
You will find that i believes soul controls the body.. it is outside imput that develops the souls personality and skills. A seven day old only knows the knowledge they are born with.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Linda <mehl...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

--

[allan...@gmail.com]

You have never studied the lesson a child teaches?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 7:54 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

--

[Molly]

A quick google of "awareness consciousness" brings up much of the current discussion on the matter.  Here is an explanation from a guy I prefer (a sculpture, Facilitator, but also a non-dual philosopher.) http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/is_awareness_the_same_as_consciousness_oasg_13 

Of course, one would have to experience what is being discussed to actually have anything other than speculation or opinion (mental constructs.) Since the experience requires going beyond mind...(won't bore you with the P word again.)

Agree, Neil, that the discussion may lead to the experience after the onion of the story is peeled. This may well be the worth of this group and what keeps us coming back.

Being a big fan of St. Therese, Sue, I welcome your thoughts to the group.  There is much to be said for innocence once the mind becomes a well oiled machine, firing only when mechanically necessary, much like a strong healthy heart that just keeps beating. Welcome.

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[Gabby]

Why don't you seize the opportunity and explain Sue and the rest of us what you have found out really controls the baby in an orderly way in a new thread? You say there is a creature born to respond to its soul. And the soul depends on outside (parents?) inputs to develop personality and skills. Where does that leave mind, agency and consciousness of the newborn? In a separate spaghetti bowl?

[Gabby]

Hello Sue, it is not necessary to regress in a child's/childhood state to be then be able to look back at the present - the German language imagery might help you out there. ;) In what we see as "Gegen-wart", being present bans the fear of the "was" and its "evils" no matter how old you are.

[facilitator]

We are all children.  No one person has lived long enough on this planet to be an adult.  Sure we age and consider 90 old and somehow think that going around the sun 90 times makes us more responsible, but that is way too short a life span to learn much.  We cannot view six generations ahead and alter the progression.

I don't see pristine qualities in children.  There are instincts that are counter to group enlightenment.

[archytas]

Most kids work out trees have backs long before phenomenological philosophers get mugged by someone lurking behind one, thinking what the things-in-themselves are really.

Consider some philosophical problems that will be familiar from introductory metaphysics classes: Does the table that I think I see before me exist? Does God exist? Does mind, conceived as an entity distinct from body, exist? These questions have the following form: does x (where x = some particular kind of thing) exist? Questions of this form presuppose that we already know what ‘to exist’ means. We typically don't even notice this presupposition 

Some of us think even to think this way is to take on presuppositions of millennia that this is any way to think successfully and we merely bewitch ourselves with language.  The baby is already in the spaghetti of evolution, DNA and culture.  Regression to the child-mind is not biologically possible.  Freedom from dud theory and trauma may be.  I sense Gabby is right, but somehow don't want to be stung by the Gegen-wart or suffer an outbreak of them.  There is something simpler in Sue Linda's learning from children.

[gabbydott]

... While it's perfectly okay that you carry the lice to the next fresh green leafs to get your extra portion of sugar?...

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[Allan H]

Actually Sue is right,, you learn the difference as you grow

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين

Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

"with a world of no expectation of evil or of good."

To meet evil or good with the same heart is not human nature. The good a person embraces with a smile , and the evil a person accepts with a heavy heart.

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[archytas]

What a dreadful Gegen-wart to dream up Gabby, and how aptly it may describe the classroom presence.

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[archytas]

That's only if they aren't sneaking up behind you RP.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 4:23:10 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

"with a world of no expectation of evil or of good."

To meet evil or good with the same heart is not human nature. The good a person embraces with a smile , and the evil a person accepts with a heavy heart.

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Sue Linda <mehl...@gmail.com> wrote:

consider  consciousness.  The endless pursuit of humanity all threw history.  To find such, is a inner exploring of who resides inside the body you call self.  There is no standard to  consciousness for the life of each has experienced very different events in life that taught them to perceive their own reality and truth by such.  It would seem to reason than that to actually find truth in  consciousness is to realize that in this school of life on this planet, is designed to teach each by experience.  Than in a twist of learning this of self and that others are also no different than you other than the experience, I would think that the only thing left to say is have compassion on all, for we do not create our own life until we realize that this is true.  I would also state, that once you come to a place of compassion for All humans, than the release of seeing differences is dissolved.  Life then can begin for the first time as the self then would choose to live each day without remembrance to the past experience.  Without past recall, then future projections are absent for there is nothing that can be judged by past experience.   Consciousness then would be a daily revealing met with a world of no expectation of evil or of good.  Like a child who just lives in the moment.  

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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[archytas]

Some of our genes are extremely old Tony.  Have to agree on the kids - all monsters are born as babies, some are showing it at nursery, a few killing at nine and then there is teenage, a specific affliction only humans go through, physically ending at about 25.

In transactional analysis child, parent and adult refer to ego states.  That might be a better way of thinking about 'childhood for adults'.

[gabbydott]

I thought this was the consciousness thread... And now it's erase your past to become part of the newborn souls group (adults only)... Wow, now that reminds me of ... 

Am Samstag, 31. Januar 2015 schrieb archytas :

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[mehlisue]

LOL I so enjoyed the conversation Archytas. Maybe it was the walk in
the park like the dogs. Thank you for the interchange. you give me a
some thought to ponder.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

There are always new thougts to ponder.  My life hs been a bit hectic recently ir is good to see new names in the contributers

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين

Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres

Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: mehlisue <mehl...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

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[archytas]

What a lovely way to think of it Sue.  The boys (cat is female - not all sexist here!) are due for the park again in about an hour.  Maxwell seems to think my dog-walking coat has consciousness, given what he tries to do with it!  He gets an extra short walk (Zak is old and a retired Guide Dog) we call his paper-round, where he sniffs the local news.  I try and 'see' their world as they do in the park (which, incidentally is where the industrial revolution began).  They found a rabbit hole yesterday, but Gabby wasn't in, or at least the rabbits didn't answer their knocks.  All the better, they thought, as the breakfast sandwiches didn't go far enough as it was.  They left me the flask of coffee.

We need imagination and dreams.  At some point, one realises subjects like this have a vast literature almost no one reads.  I guess in, say, biology, I can give an account of how our grandparents' genes are mixed when our generation produces children.  I wouldn't be much impressed as a scientist with an account from a tribe with no concept of male parentage other than a 'ghost story' (father roles are taken my male uncles).  Yet surely science is only as small part of what we are conscious of.and what might be important.

Your 'children as teachers' has long interested me.  I took an interest in teenage biology because most undergraduate teaching is with them.  They don't even perceive the world like most adults' (quite literally in the scientific sense) and lots of brain connections are being burned in.  The dogs know far more about the park than I do and I let them teach me.  Why not, then, treat undergrads like dogs.  I know Gabbs will have a vision of me with a big stick and chocolate drop rewards, but, then, the world would not be so good without these reminders either.  My dogs chase sticks and don't get chocolate.  I'm just an old bumbler who keeps them safe from traffic and the cat.  I'm not sure teachers can do much more, or should.  One at least has to try and understand the consciousness of those one tries to teach, including such stuff as autism and dyslexia - and that most of the class would rather be dog walking or at a party - or in the case of one girl, tarot reading.  Her lecture on that was a riot and got far more discussion on personal development going than 'process journals'.  She pulled a first on that one, though no doubt Gabby would say I should have pulled in an expert consultant like her to assess the technicalities, rather than an amateur like me (which would have been very welcome).  Occasionally, it is a mistake to assume consciousness - I have had classes of apparently dead people - but usually there are minds that express themselves by doing such as taking a team with a video camera to make a promotional cd for a local gay rights' campaign.  They teach me by doing things I had no intention of teaching.

Trusting to the consciousness of others is tricky, and part, of course, of learning about consciousness itself for the non-solipsist or German "Crabby" - which my iconoclast Gabby isn't.  We often need a darker wit to remind us the pathway to the wrong place is often lined with good intentions.  Sometimes you have to come at difficult problems like learning and consciousness from the left field of a dog walk.  There is a certain duty in thinking the best of others, but it is still foolish to expect Maxwell to cross a road on his own.

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[archytas]

Science is largely about observation in the first place.  These days there is little we allow as 'observation language' per se.  Even being bilingual affects consciousness (many studies).  What would most of us make of the 'raw data' of the dark flow?  Our consciousness lacks the 'training' to 'see' it as a flow beyond light speed or warp signatures or to build Hubble.

Take the example of the question 'why does it go dark at night'?  Gabby is probably thinking what the Sun god going to sleep has got to do with consciousness, while most is us are conscious of the explanation that the Earth spins on its axis and we are turned away from our sun at night.  I'm only ribbing Gabbs, of course, unless I have her consciousness wrong.  We make guesses about each other.  I'd guess most people in ME don't know what other theory arises in physics from it going dark at night.  You are no doubt all conscious of the basic theory I allude to.

I'm only guessing, but I think most here won't know that it going dark at night leads to Olbers' Paradox, which leads to big bang theory.  I'll explain if anyone asks.

I'm also guessing you can all google Olbers' Paradox.  I have taught kids who can't do that.  We make a lot of guesses about the consciousness of others and what they may have in them.  The idea that consciousness is inevitably perspectival is a non-starter for me.  We'd realise this if we shared more.

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 8:37:17 AM UTC, archytas wrote:

What a lovely way to think of it Sue.  The boys (cat is female - not all sexist here!) are due for the park again in about an hour.  Maxwell seems to think my dog-walking coat has consciousness, given what he tries to do with it!  He gets an extra short walk (Zak is old and a retired Guide Dog) we call his paper-round, where he sniffs the local news.  I try and 'see' their world as they do in the park (which, incidentally is where the industrial revolution began).  They found a rabbit hole yesterday, but Gabby wasn't in, or at least the rabbits didn't answer their knocks.  All the better, they thought, as the breakfast sandwiches didn't go far enough as it was.  They left me the flask of coffee.

We need imagination and dreams.  At some point, one realises subjects like this have a vast literature almost no one reads.  I guess in, say, biology, I can give an account of how our grandparents' genes are mixed when our generation produces children.  I wouldn't be much impressed as a scientist with an account from a tribe with no concept of male parentage other than a 'ghost story' (father roles are taken my male uncles).  Yet surely science is only as small part of what we are conscious of.and what might be important.

Your 'children as teachers' has long interested me.  I took an interest in teenage biology because most undergraduate teaching is with them.  They don't even perceive the world like most adults' (quite literally in the scientific sense) and lots of brain connections are being burned in.  The dogs know far more about the park than I do and I let them teach me.  Why not, then, treat undergrads like dogs.  I know Gabbs will have a vision of me with a big stick and chocolate drop rewards, but, then, the world would not be so good without these reminders either.  My dogs chase sticks and don't get chocolate.  I'm just an old bumbler who keeps them safe from traffic and the cat.  I'm not sure teachers can do much more, or should.  One at least has to try and understand the consciousness of those one tries to teach, including such stuff as autism and dyslexia - and that most of the class would rather be dog walking or at a party - or in the case of one girl, tarot reading.  Her lecture on that was a riot and got far more discussion on personal development going than 'process journals'.  She pulled a first on that one, though no doubt Gabby would say I should have pulled in an expert consultant like her to assess the technicalities, rather than an amateur like me (which would have been very welcome).  Occasionally, it is a mistake to assume consciousness - I have had classes of apparently dead people - but usually there are minds that express themselves by doing such as taking a team with a video camera to make a promotional cd for a local gay rights' campaign.  They teach me by doing things I had no intention of teaching.

Trusting to the consciousness of others is tricky, and part, of course, of learning about consciousness itself for the non-solipsist or German "Crabby" - which my iconoclast Gabby isn't.  We often need a darker wit to remind us the pathway to the wrong place is often lined with good intentions.  Sometimes you have to come at difficult problems like learning and consciousness from the left field of a dog walk.  There is a certain duty in thinking the best of others, but it is still foolish to expect Maxwell to cross a road on his own.

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[Allan H]

This consciousness thread and is directly inline with the topic. To me Gabby you are far stepping over the line ...  I for one am not interested on what I suspect is a porn site.. if that is what you enjoy have at it and do your thing..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين

Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: "mind...@googlegroups.com" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

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[gabbydott]

Thanks for lining out the framework, RP. Ah well.

Am Sonntag, 1. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

I , the conscious ego, am a part of this body and engage in work under the promptings of various faculties of this body.

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:11 AM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think when the scientists say that they are unable to define consciousness they are referring to the quality of consciousness and not the consciousness as an entity because neurology being so advanced they may be knowing where the central command of the organism is and as such that is the very place in which consciousness-entity resides.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:13 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:

What else do we pay you for RP, other than to give us total answers?  There is no definition really - we are guessing in this particular game.  It's pretty tricky to define oxygen without the rest of chemistry.  It was phlogiston once.

Allan's right that if we invent evil genies they have properties.  To some extent we can see the world through the eyes of another if they tell us about it or do something like Tony's artwork.    Language seems to have some collective consciousness role, even if we are often at odds with it or bewitched by it.  Hard to see language arising privately

Given how much we copy others, is consciousness ever our own?  I can't really see that the same dull academic book or fiction pot boiler repeated a thousand times comes from a thousand original subjective minds,

Sometimes things are defined by what they are not, by what's in or outside a boundary, in a closed or open system, by what use it is in explanation, prediction, comforting we lost souls ...

Telepathy used to be mystical and fail.  Now we have radio and its extensions.  I could pay for a beer for Chris to drink 3000 miles away and understand some of the relish in his description of the experience on google plus.  Somehow I am not that interested in his consciousness when more direct personal experiment is possible.  More interesting, perhaps, is that taste seems to change in near zero gravity.  I hardly know that because I've eaten there.

If Tony starts having the same consciousness as me would there be any point in both of us?  Some choose to live without running water in order to change consciousness.

What is in consciousness we might not admit to?  Is, for instance, pornography an example of what lurks?  Is talk of god just a polite distraction? 

I don't agree we will never know what consciousness is.  We don't know what we will know in the future.  I'm conscious we should start building a better material world to be conscious in - that might change consciousness for the better. 

  

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:11:29 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Allan , when you know so much about such things why don't you give a valid definition of the concept "Consciousness". And it was Chris who was calling it Mumbo Gumbo and not I. I think that I have given quite an honest definition of  such a subjective concept as definitions go. It is upto others to give a better meaning. If I have started the thread it doesn't mean that I alone have to satisfy the group.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 1:53 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

There are many many levels consciousness.  As rock who knows all about the long hard grind after carrying the weight of a glacier on his back. Now he passes his time quietly on my workbench.
Unfortunately the dictionary is the common starting point. From where you have to begin building. Chris is right..  your definion is simply not thought out or developed. Mumbo Gumbo does not cut it in an honest discussion. 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين

Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres

Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

Allan , it is consciousness. What you are seeing the dictionary for is something completely different.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 1:15 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

That is a very possible reality..  the problem is the evil genie making us think we have consciousness would mean the evil woild have to possess the attributes he is making is think we possess.
It us said more happened in the 1st second of creation than all the time has passed since.

Commonly in the belief system the overall consciousness is refered to as God (or some variation of the name). Due to free will given to all souls and beings the conciousness is ever expanding like the rest of the ùniverse demonstrates.. 

As for a common definition one needs to turn to a dictionary.
CONSCIENTIOUSNESS

noun (uncountable)
• The state or characteristic of being conscientious.

CONSCIENTIOUS

adjective
• Thorough, careful, or vigilant; implies a desire to do a task well.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين

Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres

Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Consciousness

We may have no consciousness and an evil genie might be making us think we have.  I find inferred consciousness is easily removed by a heavy blow with a pick-axe handle.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 3:10:05 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Consciousness in others is inferred and not known or proved so it might be that even atoms of elements have consciousness. I cannot even prove that you have consciousness it is merely inferred that you have it.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why do we have to be satisfied with your explanation when we haven't even determined what that means?

You began a thread called consciousness, and then won't even take the first steps to try to establish a common ground on the idea?

Let's start with the simple question: do you believe plants have consciousness?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:18 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think you will get an answer to this in the near future and maybe not in your lifetime , and so we have to be satisfied with my explanation -- it is an attribute of life , a real one , and not jumbled up.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Moogle-de-poogledy is an attribute of life and needs no further description.

Do you see why that's not an effective line of conversation?

What is conciousness? Do plants have it? Does it require sentience?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:10 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Consciousness is an attribute of life and needs no further description. Without consciousness there would have been no life , and so it is life itself.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Chris Jenkins <digitalp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just so we're all on the same page, can you go ahead and define exactly what a consciousness is?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:05 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death , nothing else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is something which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all obeys laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos. What would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws of biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we would return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home from work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there is satisfaction and assurance of well-being.

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[Molly]

Biocentrisism and Quantum Consciousness: http://higherperspective.com/2015/01/consciousness-death.html#sQpqtmeO9xKmWcZD.99

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 3:37:17 AM UTC-5, archytas wrote:

What a lovely way to think of it Sue.  The boys (cat is female - not all sexist here!) are due for the park again in about an hour.  Maxwell seems to think my dog-walking coat has consciousness, given what he tries to do with it!  He gets an extra short walk (Zak is old and a retired Guide Dog) we call his paper-round, where he sniffs the local news.  I try and 'see' their world as they do in the park (which, incidentally is where the industrial revolution began).  They found a rabbit hole yesterday, but Gabby wasn't in, or at least the rabbits didn't answer their knocks.  All the better, they thought, as the breakfast sandwiches didn't go far enough as it was.  They left me the flask of coffee.

We need imagination and dreams.  At some point, one realises subjects like this have a vast literature almost no one reads.  I guess in, say, biology, I can give an account of how our grandparents' genes are mixed when our generation produces children.  I wouldn't be much impressed as a scientist with an account from a tribe with no concept of male parentage other than a 'ghost story' (father roles are taken my male uncles).  Yet surely science is only as small part of what we are conscious of.and what might be important.

Your 'children as teachers' has long interested me.  I took an interest in teenage biology because most undergraduate teaching is with them.  They don't even perceive the world like most adults' (quite literally in the scientific sense) and lots of brain connections are being burned in.  The dogs know far more about the park than I do and I let them teach me.  Why not, then, treat undergrads like dogs.  I know Gabbs will have a vision of me with a big stick and chocolate drop rewards, but, then, the world would not be so good without these reminders either.  My dogs chase sticks and don't get chocolate.  I'm just an old bumbler who keeps them safe from traffic and the cat.  I'm not sure teachers can do much more, or should.  One at least has to try and understand the consciousness of those one tries to teach, including such stuff as autism and dyslexia - and that most of the class would rather be dog walking or at a party - or in the case of one girl, tarot reading.  Her lecture on that was a riot and got far more discussion on personal development going than 'process journals'.  She pulled a first on that one, though no doubt Gabby would say I should have pulled in an expert consultant like her to assess the technicalities, rather than an amateur like me (which would have been very welcome).  Occasionally, it is a mistake to assume consciousness - I have had classes of apparently dead people - but usually there are minds that express themselves by doing such as taking a team with a video camera to make a promotional cd for a local gay rights' campaign.  They teach me by doing things I had no intention of teaching.

Trusting to the consciousness of others is tricky, and part, of course, of learning about consciousness itself for the non-solipsist or German "Crabby" - which my iconoclast Gabby isn't.  We often need a darker wit to remind us the pathway to the wrong place is often lined with good intentions.  Sometimes you have to come at difficult problems like learning and consciousness from the left field of a dog walk.  There is a certain duty in thinking the best of others, but it is still foolish to expect Maxwell to cross a road on his own.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Been saying that for years.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

Good find Molly.  Despite my second favourite old crank (I'm putting myself first these days) saying he's been saying this for years.  Don't forget though that when we cast a shadow on a wall and walk away from that wall, we walk into the 5th dimension (M-theory).  Science hasn't proved any of this either, but Lanza at least suggests we need to be less accepting of current theories as sacrosanct.  I have written, even in here, that many biologists like me believe in an information world and that our concepts of what the individual and self may be (are in some research) suit up well with a spiritual paradigm.  Of course, a foot in the 5th dimension we were aware of or some actual evidence would be good.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Explan to me the difference between a different reality  and a dimension?  Or ME and a fancy web page.. pft...

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[archytas]

Molly has linked to a credible scientist speculating RP and a report in a BS magazine.  The guy's web site is here http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/ - he doesn't understand consciousness in any scientific way either, but is rather vying with physics to make biology more important in understanding the physical world.  So all he is really saying here concerns a change in focus to life and what it means (good in my view).  There is nothing new on consciousness and the idea we have proved via quantum physics anything in the area is false.  It's theoretical speculation.  A summary of 'quantum-consciousness' work is available here http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/

No one with scientific knowledge really believes we can demonstrate any of this.  There is a market for books for gullible religionists and other chattering class types for easy read don't do the hard work science made facile like this article.  This said, I think this is the best guess and the ideas have been around since I was an undergraduate 40 years ago.  Long bibliography available if anyone actually wants to read.  

On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 1:31:32 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

I understood from previous discussions that consciousness has not yet been defined by scientists , so where does this doctor turned scientist comes up with his extra-ordinary conclusions without any evidence. It almost appeared that a philosopher without any real knowledge of philosophy was giving us a lecture on the most debatable theory in the world.

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[archytas]

Spot on again Allan.  Dimensions arise out of the maths they use and are speculative after 3.  Realities are the fantasy worlds built with speculative dimensions, though .... and weirdly, many observations they make are more sensible in multiple dimensional reality, the actual world.  If I say 'Allan is cantankerous' this is going to be true in more possible worlds than 'Allan is cantankerous and bald as the king of France'.  I have though, forgotten why this is important or whether it ever was.  Modal logics.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

You like at mathematics. .  So let us examine the weird fantasy called mathamatics on which science is based.
But first let us take a look the atheist view of God.  There is no God  a big Zero nothing.. interesting God is a big Zero
Interesting because in school they said zero was nothing just a place holder.

Now logical  using atheist thought God is nothing  and zero is nothing  so using sound logic we can safely use zero (0) to represent God in mathematics.
Now please remove 0 (zero) fom all equations as God (0) does not exist. . Then let us see the results of your calculations.
If they no longer work out you need to admit that mathematics is based on the fantasy of God (0).

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[archytas]

All very clever mon vieux Lapin, but one must ask if the ants have been breathing that brandy at you.  The zero is a Hindu invention, stolen by the Persians before incorporation in the West.  In British schools we were taught the Roman numeral system, godless and without zero as it was.  Self taught Brazilian street kids do not use zero either.  Brazilian street-life is pretty godless at this level, so you may be right god is zero.  And spare a thought for a quasi-atheist like me, working in binary with all those gods.  And given i can re-normalise infinities ...

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