War, good god y'all, what is it good for?

253 views
Skip to first unread message

Molly

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 7:03:34 PM3/23/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Howard Zinn, http://howardzinn.org/ historian, author, professor, playwright, and activist, whose life’s work focused on a wide range of issues including race, class, war, and history, and touched the lives of countless people, said "war itself is the enemy of the human race" http://bit.ly/1FwyDUP

We go to war in a variety of ways, big to small. daily (some of us), in interpersonal ways, and over decades, as the human race. Why?

Molly

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 7:29:29 PM3/23/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com

Molly

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 2:35:47 AM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
There is a story, believed to be of Cherokee origin, in which a girl is troubled by a recurring dream in which two wolves fight viciously. Seeking an explanation, she goes to her grandfather, highly regarded for his wisdom, who explains that there are two forces within each of us, struggling for supremacy, one embodying peace and the other, war. At this, the girl is even more distressed, and asks her grandfather who wins. His answer: “The one you feed.”

This from a New York Times article "Are We Hard-Wired for War" http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/opinion/sunday/are-we-hard-wired-for-war.html

That also references this national interest article on the nature of war: http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/what-our-primate-relatives-say-about-war-7996

Looks like Kant thought war ingrained in human nature: http://www.iep.utm.edu/war/#H3  But I wonder, are we so hell bent on dominating one another that we can't help but rip each other apart, whatever the group? Marshall Rosenberg's compassionate communication model has been around for at least a decade but you couldn't see it anywhere in a CNN broadcast. The models of argument, problems solving, conflict resolution, group dynamic are available to everyone here since this group is on the internet, yet the drive to deconstruct into war and chaos seems to overwhelm, and often. Why? We go around an around with it, and come up with problems in translation and cultural differences yet it seems to me that over time these could be resolved. So what is it that brings us back to the dross over and over? Beyond who's right and who's wrong there is a skip in the record here interfering with the concert. What is it?

archytas

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 5:19:06 AM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Someone will blame it on failing to moderate the Cherokee girl within the hour.  Standard neo-Darwinism now is that we are borne in a co-evolutionary arms' race.  Even micro-organisms that fight in the wild can cooperate in other circumstances.  Perhaps our closest profile are the assimilating Borg.  We are nothing like the humans portrayed in literature.  That thing you kiss has fewer human cells than micro-organisms, even when not dying of 'flu.  And wars are about such as smallpox blankets, starvation ... 

In some species of ants, even workers may be distinguished by nine levels of aggression.  Lions are very 'Numbers 31' when new males take over a pride and we even relate female 'promiscuity' in chimps and other strategies to the prevention of infanticide by males (hippos do this too).  

Mum would have had no time for me telling tales on that dreadful Thiede girl.  This said, some of the instruments of torture that prevent learning are present in this group and elsewhere in our petty spite societies.  These are important matters, so we can rely on mostly silence here.  Gabby raises them behind her own screen and multiple aliases.  I would go a long way to be victim of her wit, at least, as we said once, 't'foot a oor stairs'.  No use running all the way home to Mommy.

The est of the war story is economics as war by other means (discussed by Greeks, found in More's Utopia) and beggaring neighbours.  This may even have an 'international financier' problem concealed in it.

A big thesis in what I'd call 'perceptual-speed-language' is needed to discuss war and complex human issues.  Now what might such language be?  How might it help those too ignorant to know many facts?

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 5:45:35 AM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
The wise Opa is correct  "it is the one you feed."
Unfortunately the political leadership follow the path  of greed always ready to line their pockets  with gold for many the god of their souls choosing. Business  soul sadly follows the same god.
I do not see how you can rob the poor and hungry

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others
--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Molly

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 6:16:54 AM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Tortured souls do present a challenge in the "no soul left behind" initiative. Sorry to keep repeating it. It somehow tickled me. I do know the tremendous challenges the no child left behind policy presented to the US school system. I wonder if the notion isn't more critical at the soul level.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 7:45:55 AM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I agree that no soul left behind concept..  the problem lies in every soul has free will with the same known  guideline. But there in lies the problem and Andrew  stated it clearly he is bringing  his own parachute to be used for escape if he does like the chatter  from the back.. 
A parachute is an escapist attitude and many many souls have it. They can neither lead nor are they able to follow, kind of like a gang mentality where they are told how to think, what to say and who to kick.. a good example might  be the US legislatures.
Ready to blame the other guy as they bail from the may lay  they created as their platinum parachute blossoms over their heads shielding them from the poverty, disease, and hunger they created leaving no soul behind..
I think it is very true for the souls that do decide  it is the path to follow. .
You can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink..


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <moll...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:16 AM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: War, good god y'all, what is it good for?

--

Molly

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 8:09:26 AM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I liked Andrew's idea, but since it is your airship Allan, you can be the one to stay and navigate.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 8:14:07 AM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Age old maritime law..  "The captain  goes down with the ship."  Hmm that would  lead to the silence beyond time.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

facilitator

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 9:56:30 AM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
War brings resolution.  

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 10:49:18 AM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
War never brings resolution. It only brings destruction, death, injury, sickness, starvation, destitution. ..  a destroyer of society. And resolves nothing. .
You live in NYC and an small  act of war occurred using the world trade center as a target..  what resolution did that bring? Or were you foaming at the mouth?

War has never brought resolution  only harm.



تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 2:56 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: War, good god y'all, what is it good for?

archytas

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 1:34:22 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Somehow, midst strangely fewer gems per acre than produced by traditional chained monkeys at typewriters, Hegel and Nietzsche relished war.  Hegel thought the ultimate contest would be between North and South America, Nietzsche that real men were warriors and women were for the recreation of such men.  In 'bag of words' interviewing, one of the things we look for are reference points in what people say that should have  empirical checks we can make.  Once you have someone telling you they were never in a room full of their fingerprints ...

Nietzsche seemed to relish war in the same way as post WW2 morons like us, listening to the beating of the drums of a 'war to end all wars' speech, without easily lapsed memories on the last one of these and what has followed since.  Ask yourself and other people what you know about war.  I can say you won't find anyone who has much clue about the realities - but how can we establish what the realities of war are?

Primitive societies (those that will have politically correct drongoes castigating one's use of the term primitive) usually state that 'revenge' is the main reason for ongoing wars.  Plenty of examples of that in this group, as the children claim 'she hit me first'.  I blame my big sister fro dropping me in a carry cot when I was 18 months old.  I claim to remember a pink carrycot - this was the one I used to use a a toboggan to ride down the stairs when old enough to have actual memories.  The one we had at the time relevant to the dropping 'memories' was green.  Of course, traumatised by the incident, I would inevitably confuse colours ... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz - or so it seems until you meet people involved in fantasy against fantasy "arguments" about real vendetta, range war and plans to hide a small population under Cheyenne Mountain to emerge 300 years after the thermo-nuclear "resolution". 



On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 1:56:30 PM UTC, facilitator wrote:
War brings resolut

Gabby

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 1:44:47 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
It is not difficult to understand how your lying through your teeth serves the ignorantly happy and those depending on this happiness. In the days before porn-war ideology weakened the senses ids lay separated from IDs and an alias was needed when the boys did not bother to deal with a bot on the banned list. Perceptual speed language is an old hat.

Gabby

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 1:52:52 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I see you pumping a lot of hate, lies, indirect accusations and all that stuff into the group. What exactly do you want to know? Maybe we can help you on the short track, give it a try!?

archytas

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 3:03:18 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
You would really Gabby.  Tell us what a perceptual speed language is, if you can drag yourself away from old trilbies.  One feature of them is spotting sour old chestnuts who have been everywhere and bought all the T-shirts.  So maybe tell us:
1. how a perceptual speed language works
2. how such might allow big data decision-making and even peace.

Wait!  I know!  Why not slag someone off like a 14 year old troll!  Gosh!  That's new!

Gabby Thiede

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 3:53:01 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Uijuijui, in this state you understand nothing. First you have to get rid of your head cramps. Think away the German accent and overwrite it with Molly's soft and gentle voice. Relax. All will be wonderful. Believe me. Trust your instincts, they will guide you through this experience. Love and peace is where we are heading, mutual understanding the key that has unlocked our hearts. Ready now?
The I's undivided wisdom is already there where the "us" needs to be gathered in a yet to be negotiated language. Us is I is the modus operandum. Peace already exists. Let go of your war porn big data swirl and you will know what is in the making. :)

I really hope you will find your peace of mind, Neil.
--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/TQ-KPlS5JIk/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

archytas

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 4:33:40 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Dissociative Identity Disorder must be hell to live with if you are aware of it in yourself.  Gabby, Hope, Donna and Pol (who has at least been pol.sci.kid in perpetual student time for longer than it takes to get a PhD) all have pretend radical features that can't stand much probing and quickly seek to blame others through projection of their worst aspects.  The insanity is largely in the 'repeated toilet cleaning' - the same devices be scrubbed away with over and over.  The idea is to subject victims to prick teasing without any fun and only to raise an expectation that can then be crushed..  All one can give is time and hope the real victim gets to see herself without the trauma.

In terms of the war machine, rather than parochial issues, psycho-pathologies are rampant, idealised as correctly mannered behaviour and give rise to killing leaderships that play chess with people.  What does the human condition do with reality other than push it down and away?  Why might we tell stories of people tranced?  What was thee banality of evil, perhaps more likely the secret pleasures of the banal, in mobilisation to war - when our lives are so full. focused, prioritised and essential they can be thrown onto the war scrapheap tomorrow?

archytas

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 5:22:11 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Europe wins hands-down every time for me Gabbsie.  It's just that you Berlin girls are too sophisticated for a country boy like me, with only my shield of innocence, forged by Scottish spiders drinking Irn Bru to prevent me from being ripped apart.  Knowing nothing can be useful.  It stops you telling old Greek stories about ships of gay sailors undergoing tough passage between straight fantasies of equally unattractive female hordes crooning in Japeianese.  Of course, it ain't a good idea to know so little as an experienced detective as to think the victim an innocent young woman when she has been murdered by one of her Johns.  Though this does make it easier to deal with the poor girl's father and his picture of his innocent child.  At least until you realise the father did it.

Beware the American saying the world is at peace?  Bit late with that inoculation dear heart.  


Safer to fly sometimes.  Hardly the type to strap myself to the mast.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 5:29:15 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Like the painting.


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

facilitator

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 5:47:29 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
What is the painting of?

archytas

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 5:55:45 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Well, where would you expect to end up between the siren calls of such dangerous women Tony?  Between Scylla and Charybdis?  I think the image may be from a cartoon of that name.

archytas

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 6:35:22 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
We actually know very little about war as a general population.  If only we could knock up a perceptual speed language out of one of Gabby's old hats.  It might help if we could get a better translation of breaking bread.  Gabby ends up bending it and as toast as one can see here: 
<iframe width="854" height="510" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OcKAdLfVFow" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Time to rush off and spread non-directed evil like butter straight from the fridge at Milady's direction.

Gabby Thiede

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 7:01:03 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I am okay, Neil. Just the normal disorders one has these days. Pol is gorgeous. She does what she wants and has a wicked sense of humor. Her animal stuff drives me crazy, but then that's my Pol, she does what she wants and I love her for it. 

You and Molly are normal control freaks, bitching out the wrong people, but you know that. The wrong that RP had been done to and the loyalty of the gentlemen owing to his queen makes me sick and I develop anti-bodies. That's how I would describe what I'm doing here and how it serves me.

But continue your war porn Walz ... 123, 123, 123..


Am Dienstag, 24. März 2015 schrieb archytas :
--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/TQ-KPlS5JIk/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

archytas

unread,
Mar 24, 2015, 9:33:11 PM3/24/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Ja, ja Thriekie, one really needs to be called a control thrieke by an identity avatar personation machine and justified victim picker.  The idea I could keep anyone else's time is so funny, almost like a German clockwork joke.  
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

andrew vecsey

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 7:27:21 AM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Very interesting question you pose Molly.
Of course it is very easy to see the many negative consequences to war, which seems to be a part of human nature. I like to believe that there is always 2 sides to everything - positive and negative. War with weapons and fighting with words have some common ground, like you suggest. Being an aggressor in a war and being a bully also share common ground.

The positive consequences of bullying that I can think of are:
1. It can make you stronger when you are bullied.
2. It shows you who your friends are who come to your aid if you are bullied.
3. It allows you to show your friendship by coming to the aid of your friends who are bullied. 
4. It allows you to make friends by coming to the aid of strangers who are bullied.
5. You can learn from it so that you do not bully others yourself. 

The positive consequences of war that I can think of are much more difficult to spot of course:
1. It advances knowledge and technology that can be useful in times of peace.
2. It allows people to mix their cultures, knowledge and genes.
3. It can protect your countrymen and family against aggressors.
4. Like natural disasters like floods. earthquakes, fires and epidemics,it can be used to counteract over population.
5. We can learn from it. If you love your enemies, like Jesus is claimed to have said, then you will not have any.

archytas

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 10:11:29 AM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Full lists on this would be very long.  

andrew vecsey

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 10:50:28 AM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
That should not stop you or members of this group from adding to the list. That is what this topic is all about.

facilitator

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 10:57:27 AM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Good points Andrew!

archytas

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 12:58:28 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I meant it more as encouragement Andrew.  

archytas

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 2:41:14 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
1. War has a very long history and seems to be most of what is taught as history.
2. In the main we know very little of even this false history.
3. Economics is now war by other means.  This means there is no real economics as the basic idea is to lie to stay ahead.
4. War is a good thing to have your enemies doing between themselves.
5. People die in excruciating agony in wars.  Armies die of starvation, dysentery, having no weapons and such as not even being able to sit down (at the Battle of Borodin, Russian casualties were halved when a general allowed them to sit down).
6.  Wars cost a lot in tax and this is mostly spent to benefit a very small number.
7.  We know a great deal about why primitive societies do war.  Ask the guy next to you and wonder why he doesn't know.  He can then ask you why you don't know either.
8. We have lots of war games at the moment in which no pain is experienced by the player.
9. Most people who die in wars are civilians.
10. Do you know what the purpose of a rear-guard is? (who do they prevent from running away?)
11.  When did Queen Eilzabeth 1 give that rousing speech and how long after the Spanish Armada had been defeated at sea was it?  How many English sailors and their families died of starvation because she didn't pay them?
12. What language did the great Scottish rebels Bruce and Wallace speak?
13. Culloden was a battle between the English and Scots - right?
14.  Thomas Cook made the travel and provisioning arrangements for the Boer War.  A third of British troops died of dysentery and starvation.  Critically evaluate "free trade and the efficiencies of the private sector" and describe the emergence of the modern package holidays.
15.  The Boer Wars (there were two) happened:
a. because Queen Victoria had heavy periods
b. the devil was known to shit Dutchmen
c. to relieve black people from slavery
d. to save the world from Zulu weapons of mass destruction
e. because gold had been discovered near Witwatersrand.
16.  Trenches are built straight so war horses could run the length of them.  True or false?
17.  You are safe in a dug-out from enemy artillery shells.  True of false?
18. The 18,000 strong British garrison at Kabul was killed to a man jack in 1840.
a. because you can't trust Al Qaeda
b. because relief supplies and troops were diverted to drug running operations elsewhere
19.  British troops in Helmand province were drinking river water and getting dysentery within days of deployment in the latest heroic victory against the Taliban.  True of false?
20. We are always the good guys.
21.  War brings technological advancement.  Does this mean nationalisation beats the private sector hands down on technological advancement?  War brings employment when genius government and economic strategies have failed to stimulate the private sector in this area.  

facilitator

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 2:59:14 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
A politician will go to war before a soldier.

andrew vecsey

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 3:21:26 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I think that all of us agree that the negative consequences of war far out weight any of the few positive consequences. 
The positive consequences of war can be realized by other means, especially in the modern times that we live in.:
1. The advance of knowledge and technology can be realized by universities and government and private projects with monetary and merit rewards.
2. People can mix their cultures, knowledge and genes via tourism and exchange projects and the internet.
3. Protection against aggressors can be attempted by diplomacy and sanctions.
4. Over population can be reduced by education, family planing and contraception.
5. We can realize that the world has become a lot smaller and that the brotherhood of man has become a lot clearer. We all have a common enemy in that if nature is exploited further we are all threatened. If you love your enemies, then you will not have any.

Switzerland has a lot to teach the world in avoiding wars.
On a political level, the keys to this are neutrality and direct democracy.
On a personal level, the keys are respect, tolerance, appreciation of diversity,

Examples are:
If a part of a canton wants to separate, then accept that fact and let them separate like demonstrated by Jura a few years ago.
Small is beautiful concept.as demonstrated by semi autonomy of the cantons and the refusal to join Euro.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 3:59:05 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
There are no positive outcome to war only elusion to attempt  to justify  what is wrong..
 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 4:03:31 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Neutrality is afraid  of taking a position.  A cowards way out.. how now to stand up for what is morally correct.. 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 8:21 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: War, good god y'all, what is it good for?

--

Gabby Thiede

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 5:42:15 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Haha, the super predictable Al is warming up for the next wave that is calculated to bring peace and power renewal for the war starter in return .... Allan, you brave and honorable warrior servant of words, why did I miss your standing up and fighting against the morally wrong behavior of Molly with respect to RP? All I have seen was a cowardish side note...
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/TQ-KPlS5JIk/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

andrew vecsey

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 5:50:39 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Neutrality kept Switzerland out of fighting wars. Wars are immoral. Judges in order to do  their job right have to remain neutral. Parents should as well remain neutral. Staying neutral takes more bravery than taking sides. As an example, some countries and some people find homosexuality immoral. In those situations, it takes courage to take a neutral stand regarding homosexuals. Neutrality shows fearless and unconditional respect.Who is to say what is moral and what is not. And something regarded as morally correct at one time  can be regarded as immorally wrong at another time.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 5:51:05 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Predictable Gabby. Finding faults that do exist. And attacking or bullying others..

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 5:54:56 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Neutrality gas marked the swiss government as cowards ..  unwilling to take a stand for morality.

Gabby Thiede

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 6:03:01 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
And what do we do when we find a fault? Attack, bully and start war threads instead?

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 6:03:50 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
If you are so neutral why are you promoting the benefits of war..
Are you for war or against war..  your lip flapping is anything but neutral. It does not take bravery to be neutral but rather cowardice. .  Those wanting to profit from war while hiding. .

I do not like .. i have seen the harm it does and there is no neutrality.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:50 PM

Gabby Thiede

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 6:10:03 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Don't let yourself get distracted, Allan! I am the evil bitch here! You need to fight with me!


Am Mittwoch, 25. März 2015 schrieb :
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/TQ-KPlS5JIk/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

archytas

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 6:18:32 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Neutrality never quite worked for Belgium, but as a personal construct it can be brave enough. The Plymouth Brethren and Amish can bottle out, but not the anarchist.  Generally, Andrew is right here, but I feel a bit queasy.  War should tell us something on how bullshit economics is, otherwise Germany and Japan would still be ashes.  I suppose there is a certain positive for some in seeing the male flower of youth cut down and old farts left behind having prettier, more fertile girls.  Some old dears had some very ear-burning things to say about their war experience, especially the rural posh.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 6:29:02 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Why do i want to fight with you Gabby? I never considered you an evil bitch or person. You are just Gabby. .


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

Gabby Thiede

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 6:30:34 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Relaxation. The master is back to sort things in the right boxes. Puh, stress relief. We don't need to think wrong stuff.
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/TQ-KPlS5JIk/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

archytas

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 6:48:01 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Well said Allan, though I fear you have allowed a woman with a pointy hat to manoeuvre behind you with an ice pick in hand.  Still, I have her in the cross-hairs of my Javelin SSM and have just seen a traffic warden give her broomstick a parking ticket.  I'll push the button after supper.  Meantime just duck and weave  I have assumed RP was not one of the Gabbys, as he knew something of cricket.  Forgive me if I must test your blood when we meet - it's just Deep Space Nine protocol these days. 
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/TQ-KPlS5JIk/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

archytas

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 7:17:37 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I have referred RP's passing to the virtual forensic lab and will follow the evidence of this and earlier incidents.  Reception for the bad girl correcter device embedded in your false tooth will improve if you stop biting people Gabby.  There is a team, due to report shortly, on whether you have replaced Molly.  She is rapidly becoming a better bad girl than you can really aspire to, given your compulsive banality.  Bob seems to match your current interests, pondering excellently on the colour of boxes.  Stuff is more likely snorted than thought, and one suspects this a more likely way for you to get up to speed than application of intellect.  I can see you giving really useful advice to someone choosing between the colours while, black and woodgrain.


On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 10:30:34 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:
Relaxation. The mastck to sort things in the right boxes. Puh, stress relief. We don't need to think wrong stuff.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

Molly

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 7:44:11 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
My boss did coin a new phrase today "going all Brogan on them," referring on my way to deal with difficult vendors. Was amused that he used my pen name, as if it were a covert activity. We are all who we are, all out when called for.

archytas

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 8:38:51 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
With the shape-shifters beaming sunshine at us, I'm merely taking security precautions.  You see, if you were one of them, you would say that, wouldn't you?  You can rely on me for eternal vigilance and the total boredom solution needed in Berlin company that has conflated telling jokes by numbers with numbers being funny.  Do you knit Molly?  I'm thinking of a guillotine motion ...

James Lynch

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 8:39:12 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com

'Dance like a butterfly sting like a bee' fair lady. Silence feels like cowardice to me Allan.

Hey Tony, glad to hear Andrew and Fran too! Who's this Chris fellow?

archytas

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 8:54:16 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Chris came as custodian of the group's beer cellars.  He was last seen making a trip to a craft brewery on a German manufactured broomstick, mistaking Wytch's Brew for witch's broom, an easy mistake for an American drinker after 19 quarts of Old Peculiar.  Other ventures here include putting wolves in charge of hen houses/
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/TQ-KPlS5JIk/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

James Lynch

unread,
Mar 25, 2015, 10:32:11 PM3/25/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com

I find this to be wise insight Andrew. A caveat might be the vulnerability of standing in no mans land, a lone wolf on many counts. This watchful, listening temperance may be natural to each in part, when it turns away we are surely damned to our less virtuous and hungrier wolves.

James Lynch

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 12:36:53 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com

Parenting, like teaching can be a  thankless task requiring incorrigible wit and a stomach for dark beers. I for one am glad to hear a good story even as a statue in disanimie (crap the Brits already made that word up). Lacking both I seem to have transintegrated on my path to enlightenment and landed back here. In flight from hell a falcon dive through a wall of fire meditation left me triple spinning with the thunder of a waterfall on my head to send me to my knees grasping the ground. It was almost downright 'spiritual'.

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 2:18:25 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
My bout of 'flu had me on my knees in similar manner Ash.- as you know we Brits have to do things on the cheap these days.  ME hasn't changed much and at one point only hung together through threads of Allan talking to himself.  The rest of our world is made up by that German actress we hired to play Estella Haversham, the girl brought up to raise and then bring the Great Expectations of men crashing down.  She has gone native and has a cloning machine in operation, as in 'The Fly'.  In this case, whatever comes out has an over-sized spleen.  We discuss nothing at all  productive and there are more former members exchanging emails with me than use the group for fear of being savaged in the post catastrophe world of these columns. Even Molly Brogan has gone feral and sank teeth into RP Singh.  The poor chap hasn't been seen since.  He only indicated Moll had been neglecting her family by spending time in religious speakeasy joints and frittering her time away writing on the imagination - something we all knew anyway but wouldn't say out of respect for the brick in her handbag.  Moll and I agree on almost everything these days except god.  I don't do Deity despite Gabby's claims I am one and it seems Molly's chap talks to her about quantum phenomena, making me believe she is in touch with a charlatan as I passed through the quantum rainbow some time ago, whilst waiting to cross the Planck wall and feel the burn.  My main triumph concerns successful treatment of Allan's zero complex by convincing him there are no numbers in mathematics.

You can tell the usual standards of ignorance reign.  This thread is supposedly about war and no one seems to be aware of basic details and our countries' roles in finding chaps armed with sharpened mangoes prepared to be slaughtered to prove their manhood in death and ours in that distant triumph in which we don't know whether we are flying a drone or Master Chief in Halo legendary mode.  That the Saudis and other GCC members are bombing Yemen is seen as an irrelevance as Gabby continues a bullying monologue between the various 'alters' that prove she does not have dissociative personality disorder.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 2:18:31 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Gabby is just Gabby and i have not pissed her off yet.. and the fencing sword will come out for exercise..

Deep space Nine. Might  be a good idea. But i think we will first need to build it orbiting  earth.. as the have not mastered warp drive yet. To much of a desire for war and wasting resources.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 2:20:58 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Kool!


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <moll...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: War, good god y'all, what is it good for?

My boss did coin a new phrase today "going all Brogan on them," referring on my way to deal with difficult vendors. Was amused that he used my pen name, as if it was a covert activity. We are all who we are, all out when called for.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 2:24:26 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Chris is the weird fellow that started the ME group..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 2:31:06 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I'm not sure a sword is the ideal combat weapon against the collective alters of the formidable Ms Thiede Allan - though a back-to-back tactic might be effective.   

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 2:42:05 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Fencing swords are for exercise. Requiring protective  tips and padding that sounds alerts then points are scored.. we do not want her hurt..  RP sadly  did not become guru with his own kiosk on ME.. lack of followers and miss Gabby  and Andrew did not oww and ahh enough for him.  Molly had little to do with his leaving.  Good to see you back now I can stop  talking to myself..

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 2:58:23 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I have abandoned warp technology.  At relativistic speeds collisions with the cosmic background radiation become problematic and colliding with a speck of dust would produce as much energy at a couple of tons of exploding TNT - http://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.05845v1.pdf
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/TQ-KPlS5JIk/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 3:02:27 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Back to back they faced each other
And with their swords shot each other.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 4:00:33 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Vanishing
Puff of smoke
Follows

Gabby Thiede

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 6:05:46 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Tell us about your war Neil. What is your motive for being here? S-words because f-words are forbidden? Have you not created a catchy mud fighting prequel with the Holy Queen and the Evil Witch to the now to follow serious deep thought reasoning in the main body? We are all thrilled to hear what your guided by s-word support revelation will tell us about who we really are .... So exciting...
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

Gabby

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 6:24:06 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
No, that was Craig, the attorney who was so kind as to take my plead serious and pulled me out of the banned for lifetime list so I wouldn't have to post with my donnadonne email but could use my standard gabbydott account. Chris is my eternal savior who I guess saved me several times afterwards from being cleaned off the members list. He did not find James offer to replace him as a moderator good enough and was delighted to see an academic hat being thrown in the ring by Neil. That's the story.

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 7:04:32 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Brilliantly predictive when you look at the next two posts Allan!

Gabby Thiede

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 7:45:25 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
This translates that you are supposed to open a new thread topic Allan. That way you "forget" where we are coming from.


Am Donnerstag, 26. März 2015 schrieb archytas :
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

Molly

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 7:46:41 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
It all does seem to come down to managing the several members known as Gabby as they play out her psychodramas. What's up with that?

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 8:20:41 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Hubble bubble our toil and trouble.  There were three witches, but now you have to invent imaginary friends.  One suspects even the cauldron sprouted legs and had it away on its toes.  I never had an academic hat, thinking such things trappings of supplicants to power.  When instructed  'by the left, quick march' my brain asks why anyone worth responding to would be so directive.  I never have to engage mind when putting out bait for you, though how long I can leave this pro bono work on my list is moot.  You must have something I suppose.  I don't generally have to bother with women old enough to already have dentists stealing their teeth, style themselves on the south end of a north bound tram and borrow painted smiles from clowns.  Though not being an ageist sucker for the honey-face bloke in need of anti-depressants to ensure fair play for ugly women, I do manage to be fair to the unfair.  I suppose you can be relied on not to do fashion and be generally less dangerous than our brick in handbag carrying and all round main woman Molly.  I expect the ratings on our social intercourse are low (Geselligkeit seems suited to say after a sneeze). 'Die Welt, in Deutsch zu sehen ist sehr grau', I once said to a colleague trying to prove perception changes with the use of other languages.  Like many half-wits skilled in linguistic incompetence, he hadn't worked out that if there are prawns without language that see in 16 colours, that colour perception may not have much to do with language.  I am probably less easily charmed by a female sock puppet in distress than your Chrissy and Craig, who banned Chazwin when he had cancer and actually some interesting arguments as well.  Time to walk dogs, do shopping, get sick friend to the doctor, put tea in slow cooker and other things inconsiderate, fascist men like me do.  We may have to moderate you on boredom, or market you as 'Bad Barbie' to the pre-teen boys' toys segment dumb enough to thonk (they wouldn't spell well) lipstick sophisticated on Miss Piggy and are jealous of Kermit's luck.

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 8:39:18 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
The pro bono bit Molly.  There are limits, even with our no soul left behind policy.  Psychodrama seems to pin it all.  As in shower curtain, knife and cut to black-and-white, all turned into a one-woman show at the Bate's Motel.  Could we not get her doing her own therapy too?  I know she only craves attention because she has a younger, prettier, smarter sister, but most kids do grow through this stage.  Maybe we should start charging and create a waiting room to do some Lacanian time structuring (she stays out there, we do nothing and then send her a big bill for the non-therapy that has taught her to understand how she wastes our time)?  Or we could roll her up in a carpet and have it sent c/o 'Chrissy Jenkins, Some Swamp, Flouride County, SEP' (someone else's problem).

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 8:46:28 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Ah yes SEP good udea .


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 9:01:50 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
You do realize  hacking is illegal. .


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabby <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: War, good god y'all, what is it good for?

Molly

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 9:06:17 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Great way to study without having to go through the trouble of hanging out a shingle. And since all saviors have left the group (except of course the alters) we would be hard pressed for a shipping address. If there are limits here Gabby hasn't seen them, as her new application to the group with a different address for RP proves. A war that knows no bounds. Not many left to watch, let alone get off a shot now and then.

Molly

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 10:49:47 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Looks like everything is going on behind the scenes at this point. Let me know when the war is over. Until then, I will be in Switzerland, with or without Andrew.


On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 8:39:18 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote:

facilitator

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 11:08:30 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
And there was war in Heaven…  Rev 12:7

Molly

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 11:37:09 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
goes on in every heart

facilitator

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 11:47:31 AM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Yes Molly !  The battle within is fierce and takes few prisoners.

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 12:01:31 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I was impressed when I thought she was a bot.  One had to admire that almost human quality. Now we know she's just a daft old bat addicted to white board wipe vapour or a runaway from the Rocky Horror Show, the disappointment would be intense if we'd ever cared for substrate dependant mind fetish.

facilitator

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 12:07:19 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Neil, I wish I could sculpt with metal to the degree you sculpt with words!  I would have been in MOMA years ago.

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 12:09:24 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I take the implicit meaning Tony.

andrew vecsey

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 12:23:36 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Molly, if you are ever in Switzerland, please let me know. I would like to meet you and your family and show you how civilized Switzerland is and how nice the Swiss people are.

andrew vecsey

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 12:32:38 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Niel, you are also invited to Switzerland to sharpen up your "tolerance", which seemed to have been dulled. Remember, everything and everyone has 2 sides - a positive and a negative - even Allan and Gabby.

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 5:06:17 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I'll take the tolerance classes as long as they come with some anti-mugging refreshers..

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 5:13:52 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I was just shuddering about the thought of being in MOMA when the modern art bit dawned.  

Molly

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 5:18:43 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Tolerance is one thing. I think we have an abundance in here. If you read the guidelines (always the first post in the row) this is a group for rational discussion. Somewhere, we lost sight of that, although Neil makes a heroic effort to keep it all in perspective and honor all participants. Provocative therapy sometimes works on those hell bent on provocation and not offering much else. Would love to see us get back to an honest dialogue, free of fantasy, delusion, aggression, etc. Art, culture, family, community, economy, hell at this point, I would settle for politics as long as the discussion was rational. (Bet you didn't think you would hear that from me!)

facilitator

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 6:03:10 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Well Molly, that would be up to you. You asked the question about what war was good for.  There were some responses in kind but little feedback.



Molly

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 6:24:47 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
"Your heart just breaks, that’s all. But you can’t judge or point fingers. You just have to be lucky enough to find someone who appreciates you." Audrey Hepburn.

Never been much of a fighter or seen the need of it. I did have three older brothers that always seemed to fight growing up so understand the instinct to war. Think it has been an industrial machine in the US for way too long, making money (a lot) for politicians (Dick Cheney.) I was always good at the game of risk and understand the strategies of defense and expansion. My dad was in WWII and scarred for life from it, passing very early from health problems associated with his service. Conflict seems to be addicting on small and large levels for those not interested in resolution but focused on perpetuation. I guess I was looking more at the warring behaviors of this group and hoping for insights from the more insightful members. Neil seems to see it pretty clearly. Not sure what resolution, if any, is possible.

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 6:50:26 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I was just thinking I don't go around chasing the tail pipes of north bound trams, when the modern art of MOMA dawned on me.  

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 8:00:20 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Many google groups are effectively dead.  You have to wonder, in front of undergraduates, whether anyone does rational discourse at all.  Hardly any of them will be interested in learning how to work things out for themselves and trying to give them the opportunity is something resisted very hard.  We run feedback exercises, but in staff development events the chances of it all starting with a 10 second biopic in which you learn the French teacher next to you teaches French are remarkably high.  

I'm seriously interested in how free speech is stopped.  This is connected with Molly's question in this thread.  The bickering, personation, alters, slagging, barking and the rest look like scenes from British secondary schools - and this is where I would judge most knowledge content expressed over the years.  Of course, I can hear the old fart speaking this.  The jaded lecturer who cast pearls before swine now sits in condescension on all the teecher mincers who thought they were smarter and cooler than Bart Simpson, grown to druggie failure as adults.  I know the thinking in this is not good enough, partly because I know a huge amount taught in schools and universities is simply crap - though not quite in the way the kids themselves feel this.

My approach has been to look at the "secret pleasures of bureaucracy".  Slagging Gabby, for instance, is very easy because she even pisses off her (?) own alters - yet what are the "secret pleasures" of such engagement?  The possibilities are legion and disturbing - yet what could be more disturbing of the mannered society in which many of our kids can't remember what they did in school yesterday and any adults I've polled on general and scientific understanding over 30 years live in cloud cuckoo land.  One can start a lecture by such polling and a comparison of human knowledge with the performance of chimpanzees on the same multiple choice tests.  The same chimps are turning up by the end of the module too.  

If we wanted to, we could offer "her (?)" as slagging - hinting "she" is, say, a cross-dresser (I know a few and wouldn't want to upset most of them - slag +) etc.  Few seem to get that decent people can be very "impolite" in actual friendship and a lot of the mannered stuff covers appalling war-like hostility and lies about in our society without real help.  Most murders and brutality have such pathetic "origins" I can barely relate the tales without people thinking I'm making them up.  Anthropology tells similar tales.  In the Balkans and Cyprus you can find communities with inter-marriage, shared wealth and friendships one day, killing each other the next.  Genocides are not uncommon and Jews are not over-often the victims (think how impossible this debate is and the turds who would make me a holocaust denier).  I suspect "secret pleasures" in hating other people, even that the relevant traumas may be generations old.

My guess has long been that most free speech can't start because people get used to living without knowledge because it is much easier to cheat following fashion or modelling on role.  I'd love to get into discussion of such and to an extent can with books and papers (there is a 'fashion' theory of learning and exploitation).  What we need to imagine is why various clowns and barkers, those gossiping loudly at the back or even those good adaptive children who want to know which page of the textbook to copy, want to stop us having our free speech. 

Molly

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 9:31:03 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Free speech in those terms, is rare indeed. I can read Blake till the cows come home, feeling my way through it, understanding it a little more each time. I can read Yeats on Blake, and feel I understand Blake better, but do I? Or do I only now understand the more structured vision of Blake through Yeats:

The whole of Blake's teaching, -- and he was a teacher before all things, -- may be summed up in a few words.

Nature, he tells (or rather he reminds) us, is merely a name for one form of mental existence. Art is another and a higher form. But that art may rise to its true place, it must be set free from memory that binds it to Nature.

Nature, -- or creation, -- is a result of the shrinkage of consciousness, -- originally clairvoyant, -- under the rule of the live senses, and of argument and law. Consciousness is the result of the divided portions of Universal Mind obtaining reception of one another.

The divisions of mind began to produce matter (as one of its [[breve]]llvld(d moods is called), as soon as it produced contraction (/~d.lm), and opacity (Satan), but its fatal tendency to division had further effects. Contraction divided into male and female, -- mental and emotional egotism. This was the 'fall'. Perpetual war is the result. Morality wars on Passion, Reason on Hope, Memory on Inspiration, Matter on Love.

In Imagination only we find a Human Faculty that touches nature at one side, and spirit on the other. Imagination may be described as that which is sent bringing spirit to nature, entering into nature, and seemingly losing its spirit, that nature being revealed as symbol may lose the power to delude.

Imagination is thus the philosophic name of the Saviour, whose symbolic name is Christ, just as Nature is the philosophic name of Satan and Adam. In saying that Christ redeems Adam (and Eve) from becoming Satan, we say that Imagination redeems Reason (and Passion) from becoming Delusion, -- or Nature.

The prophets and apostles, priests and missionaries, of this Redemption are, -- or should be, -- artists and poets. Art and poetry, by constantly using symbolism, continually remind us that nature itself is a symbol. To remember this, is to be redeemed from nature's death and destruction.

This is Blake's message. He uttered it with the zeal of a man, who saw with spiritual eyes the eternal importance of that which he proclaimed. For this he looked forward to the return of the Golden Age, when 'all that was not inspiration should be cast off from poetry'. (13) Then, wherever the metaphors and the rhythms of the poet were heard, while the voices of the sects had fallen dumb, should be the new Sinai, from which God should speak in 'Thunder of Thought and flames of fierce desire'.(14)

http://www.csun.edu/~hceng029/yeats/yeatsprefacetoblake.html

I understand that most students at the university level aren't there to thinks and learn - it is more political (matter of economy). They are brainwashed to believe that going to university means making more money in the future and most are willing to regurgitate what is easiest to make the passing grade.

But I also know that some of what I learned and wrote during that time is some of the best of who I am, and somehow we integrate those experiences into the larger matrix of being. I would seem like a simpleton to myself if I went back and listened to a day in the life. I know because 90% of my written record during that time was tossed. That 10% is the essence of Molly Brogan still today. It must be hard for a teacher to see all that while in the thick of it.

 As you can imagine, I like what Yeats had to say about Blake's treatment of imagination. Is free speech hampered by looking through this lens?

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 9:51:09 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Ellery Hanley was so good as an opponent in rugby league that the only strategy we could come up with to stop him was to try and get him to fight before the game.  You'd lose the fight too as he was a magnificent physical specimen, but what was a week eating hospital food compared with getting him sent off for fighting and giving the rest of the team an even chance playing against mere mortals?  He really was one of the few that good.  I understand this kind of thing, but actually think it is better to lose than win like this.  In cricket, the smiling grins on nearby fielders' faces may conceal very inappropriate comments about one's mother, parentage and genital warts - it's called 'sledging'.  In its absence, one could get paranoid enough to think one was being subjected to the silent treatment or not considered good enough to warrant the effort!  My fast bowling career (pitching) started with a captain who tossed me the ball, saying the game was lost but we might as well have the pleasure of killing a few of them.  No one died, but with each of their batsmen greeted with whoops from my colleagues about washing the blood off the stretcher used to carry my victims from the field the previous week and how fast I'd bowl if anyone offered serious resistance, the job got done.

Such games bear comparison with internet flaming and the rest, but are remarkably non-violent (as most sportsmen are) and part of a 'crack', respect for rules and umpires.  Yet they do reach boil over and almost all human history demonstrates much violence lurks under our manners.  I can demonstrate ad hom in all academic discourses, hatred in the religions of peace, vile racism in Marx and I believe chronic fascist supremacy in all economics that is essentially and invisibly about a control fraud of staying ahead by beggaring neighbours.

The silencing mechanisms, whether pathetic 'nasty child' or propaganda are remarkably efficient in preventing dialogue and peaceful resolution.  In all this, there are people who would think me mad for countenancing WW1 did not start in 1914 and can't even name the countries that fought in the standard model and on which side.

archytas

unread,
Mar 26, 2015, 11:28:04 PM3/26/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
The Sun in the Middle East is more or less at arm's length and men in it prone to visions and poetry.  My head is hurting a bit like an after sun-stroke experience from this 'flu.  Can't really do justice to this with a Bahrain hangover!  Scientists are a bit dismissive about hanging around for these 'blow jobs from god or poetry', but much of our through the keyhole language has this form, if a different lexicon. and more inclination to swear to distinguish ourselves from the Bildungswaller.  

There are problems in what you say here Molly  What would be important to me in free speech as an ideal-type would be not to shut us out of the potential experience in the raw (or as close as we could get) before any shift in reasoning phase and future potentials of reculer pour me sauter - to be able to stand back to leap forward.  This would apply as much to you as my guide through the 'poetry' as anything I might say of a speck of dust in collision with a baryon hull near the speed of light (two tons of exploding TNT if I got the sums wrong).  Cows coming home need milking too.

Only some kids can even do the regurgitation bit - education condemns itself by its failure for me,  One is denied teaching and learners learning in so many ways.  Science fiction leaves most things unchanged from 19th century literature and Attic tragedy - copied copies rather than imagination.  I see the girl too.  

Must try some sleep now.  Free speech is structured, what is free is also contained.  Slavery and the poor do not always have to be with us as we smug creeps allow the laws of history and economics to work unconsciously in a world of Gabby-girl alters.  Something is stopping us from imagining we can.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 1:44:31 AM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I think the problem lies in people having narcissistic personality disorder.  The people involved know who they are and about their problem . . Sadly they have no desire to change.

This probably  the problem  with a lot of groups not just ours. This narcissistic people drive away quality people as they have no desire to put up with them.



تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: War, good god y'all, what is it good for?

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 2:07:27 AM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
You are right Neil

And WW 1 did not start in 1914 it started  years earlier from what could be best described as ghetto elitism. Never realized until my mother let it slip when talking about why her dad mover to Montana.. i know the Montana land and have Hamburg area land.. farming wise Hamburg is better. Political socially  Montana is far better. The difference  is the result of Ghetto Elitism.  Many of the world's problems today originate right there. Will people evolve away from the attitude. . Seriously doubt it.


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: War, good god y'all, what is it good for?

archytas

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 2:20:08 AM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
We may have been closer to Nous sommes tous Gabbie than we know Allan - almost had to switch myself on and off this morning to make sure I hadn't become one of her alters.  She put so much effort in I thought she must be some kind of crooked scheme going, but con men usually try and use offered exchanges of humour to manipulate.  I suspect most people don't really empathise much beyond genetic imprinting and sex.  Odd stuff.  
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

allan...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 3:38:07 AM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I think you are right there Neil.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

andrew vecsey

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 7:36:56 AM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
How about if people and the nations they are represented by just refuse to engage in wars.Like we see in Switzerland.
How parents resolve fights between their children should be a guide as to how governments resolve wars between nations.

1. Let the parts of Ukraine that want to separate and join Russia, do so. Even encourage them to do so and keep peace with them.
2. Let the parts of the world with Sunni majorities who support the support they are getting from ISIS set up their Caliphate. Even encourage them to do so and keep peace with them.
3. Let Putin do what he wants with his Russia. After all, the Russians have elected him. And let the Russians throw him out if they want to.

With the Palestinian-Isreali problem, it is more complicated because Israel, a puppet state of US, does not want the Palestinians to have their own state and at the same time does not allow them to be integrated into Israel. The solution demands not neutrality, but a heavy hand. This is where the UN can exert its influence.
1.Move the UN headquarters to Jerusalem and surroundings, which historically should belong to everyone - believers and non-believers. 
2.The peoples of the world should vote with their wallets, and demand with their wallets via sanctions the following:
2a. that the Palestinians have their own state and encourage them to be independent.
2b. no more weapon imports to anywhere and to anyone.

Defense against aggressors should be via non-violent resistance. Money seems to be the most powerfull weapon. It probably has always been and perhaps it always will be.. 

I know all of this sounds very simplistic and painful, but without pain, there is no gain.

Molly

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 8:52:18 AM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Ed Norton was in a movie called the 25th hour that I really liked, and not just because his character's name was Monty Brogan. The plot line unfolded in the 24 hours before Monty went to jail and at one point, his friend turned to him and said, "wouldn't it be nice if you could take your dog to jail?" The chances of that happening anywhere seem slim but gee, wouldn't it be nice?

I've never enjoyed competition but saw two boys through a few decades of it and watched the fruition of decency it can create in terms of cooperative effort, team work, camaraderie, strategy and physical prowess. Accepting victory and defeat with grace is probably the most valuable lesson that I saw them learn. When a group can get beyond personality and move as one toward a common goal it can be a beautiful thing. When that is obviously absent in a group the dysfunction can be painful to watch and the fruit becomes toxic or dies before edible. Competitive spirit when married to generosity of spirit is glorious. I saw my son help another player up off the field that had just tackled him hard (found out later he told him, "good hit!") I also saw him clash helmets so hard with a guy before the play started that it was heard loudly throughout the stadium, walk off and sit himself on the sidelines, taking the 20 yard penalty with his team. Was told later it was a move calculated by the team to stop the trash talk. (We won't get into the neck injury) But stomping on someone's knee to try to get him out of the game, while seen by some as just part of the competitive spirit, takes us into that win at all cost mindset where the honest competition is lost and the flavor of war is set.

Free speech is a tricky thing when speech becomes more about inflicting pain and inflaming conflict than communicating. I thought it interesting that the moderators were seen as beast masters by the trolls in this group over the years, as if those roles are a necessary part of the psychodrama. It may be the nature of an internet group and the reason that most have a life span. Most reasonable people walk away from perpetual conflict. There are groups on the internet that thrive on it, and all the members engage. Then there are trolls on the internet whose personalities get more of a charge from the feeling of victory having disbanded a functional group with conflict. How does free speech come into play when speech is used as a weapon of war? That use may be ingrained in US culture, with political ads designed to smear and manipulate voters running for months before every election. I am sure that is what makes Netflix's business model successful. Gotta be.

Allan has a point about the narcissist. Using words as weapon is a major part of that personality disorder and the flaming narcissist goes off at the drop of a hat, willing to tell you everything that is wrong with you and how you ruin everything. but I think somewhere in each of us there is a narcissist, so fascinated with their own reflection that their awareness is stunted by their inability to look beyond it. It becomes a disorder when the fascination becomes obsession and projection, and war with experience becomes all that is known.

Are we obligated to listen to the ravings of a mad man indulging his free speech? Are we entitled to inflict words of hate that can lead to violence or destruction (yelling fire in a crowded room?) Is the prevention of the destruction of a productive group a line that should be drawn for hate speech? Or is it a line drawn too soon?

No soul left behind is certainly noble. But at the level of soul, all that is required is unconditional love. We are not required to submit ourselves as target practice.

I have no desire to be anyone's beast master. Nor do I want to see this group die. If it can be preserved, it should be preserved because by all accounts, it offers a place to dialogue like no other. The guidelines to this group have taken many forms over the years but have the same essential message. Reasonable, respectful dialogue is the space they provide. Is anyone who gets a charge by continually violating the guidelines (and the members) invoking their free speech or engaging in war?

Is there an example of a society that successfully operates with a governing structure of anarchy? I would be interested to know. Because I would like to experience a world where laws and social contracts were not necessary. I haven't found it yet.

archytas

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 11:07:54 AM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Chomsky advocates institutional evaluation and de-institutionalisation where possible.  Anarchy is defamed as lawlessness, meaning leaderlessness.  There have been various institutional anarchies in history and there was a strong movement in the US 100 years back.  Generally, being an anarchist and thus having no interest in capitalism's wars is not regarded as a good excuse for conscientious objection as being blinded by the light of the lord the day before the draft.  Religion is the safer cowards' retreat.  Anarchist units fight rather well, given they could and have been known to take annual leave on the night before battle and shouldn't really have organised logistics.

I knew a guy called 'Three-card-Monty Brogan' once.  Not a relative Molly, not his real name 'Brogan', but then ... nom de plume, nom de guerre - and all these pesky Gabby-alters!  Putting all that energy into spoiling other people's fun?  The wasp factory network in place (iain Banks) and mad continuation by email.  Now it's all Allan's fault again and RP has a harrowing biography I read in a book somewhere years ago in an Indian Railway Club.

There may be something worth saving Molly, but we may have to do it somewhere else.  Gmail makes things tougher than need be by not showing IP addresses in its headers.  I quite like Gabby's notion of theatre and alias - but she is too brutal for this old rugby player.  Both she and Allan, assuming they are different people, can put anyone wanting some fun in dialogue off.  No doubt my jokes do too.  

I guess the anarchy game has problems before it starts because there are biological hierarchies.  Humans are much less imaginative than they think (and may have the imagination you dream up Molly, not about petty fashions).  I deleted the 'Molly shame' post and some other related boredom muck for much the same reasons I haven't posted anything on whether Gabby is a frustrated hausfrau or really some kind of international con artist.  

The nearest to a governing structure (oxymoron) of anarchy?  Termites and social spiders.  To get into this we'd need to get a framework of what leadership is.  In humans, anarchy and fascism run into the same problems of charismatic leadership - so you could have a lot to offer on 'non-corrupt charisma'.  I'll have to explain more.  Dogs directing me to walk.


On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 12:52:18 PM UTC, Molly wrote:
Ed Norton was in a movie called the 25th hour that I really liked, and not just because his character's name was Monty Brogan. The plot line unfolded in the 24 hours before Monty went to jail and at one point, his friend turned to him and said, "wouldn't it be nice if you could take your dog to jail?" The chances of that happening anywhere seem slim but gee, wouldn't it be nice?

I've never enjoyed competition but saw two boys through a few decades of it and watched the fruition of decency it can create in terms of cooperative effort, team work, camaraderie, strategy and physical prowess. Accepting victory and defeat with grace is probably the most valuable lesson that I saw them learn. When a group can get beyond personality and move as one toward a common goal it can be a beautiful thing. When that is obviously absent in a group the dysfunction can be painful to watch and the fruit becomes toxic or dies before edible. Competitive spirit when married to generosity of spirit is glorious. I saw my son help another player up off the field that had just tackled him hard (found out later he told him, "good hit!") I also saw him clash helmets so hard with a guy before the play started that it was heard loudly throughout the stadium, walk off and sit himself on the sidelines, taking the 20 yard penalty with his team. Was told later it was a move calculated by the team to stop the trash talk. (We won't get into the neck injury) But stomping on someone's knee to try to get him out of the game, while seen by some as just part of the competitive spirit, takes us into that win at all cost mindset where the honest competition is lost and the flavor of war is set.

Free speech is a tricky thing when speech becomes more about inflicting pain and inflaming conflict than communicating. I thought it interesting that the moderators were seen as beast masters by the trolls in this group over the years, as if those roles are a necessary part of the psychodrama. It may be the nature of an internet group and the reason that most have a life span. Most reasonable people walk away from perpetual conflict. There are groups on the internet that thrive on it, and all the members engage. Then there are trolls on the internet whose personalities get more of a charge from the feeling of victory having disbanded a functional group with conflict. How does free speech come into play when speech is used as a weapon of war? That use may be ingrained in US culture, with political ads designed to smear and manipulate voters running for months before every election. I am sure that is what makes Netflix's business model successful. Gotta be.

Allan has a point about the narcissist. Using words as weapon is a major part of that personality disorder and the flaming narcissist goes of at the drop of a hat, willing to tell you everything that is wrong with you and how you ruin everything. but I think somewhere in each of us there is a narcissist, so fascinated with their own reflection that their awareness is stunted by their inability to look beyond it. It becomes a disorder when the fascination becomes obsession and projection, and war with experience becomes all that is known.

archytas

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 2:26:48 PM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Listening to mad people falls within the principles of education as an aim in itself, though there clearly are limits, even if it can be tough to establish what they are.  We could have some cracking debates on such as this.  Of course, you can't have the debates (which might spawn such as books) if some miserable sods flood it with nonsense and libellous attacks.


On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 12:52:18 PM UTC, Molly wrote:

Molly

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 3:59:43 PM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I'd say the time for such debates is now, within the relative calm. I completely understand and applaud the notion of giving people the space to learn and self govern. The no child left behind philosophy fell apart in the US when the inclusion lines fell so far beyond kids that could learn and self govern that the classrooms became chaotic and students became witnesses to teachers trying to manage disorder, and only able to do so. Kids throwing furniture, spontaneously masturbating on a regular basis and never passing a test set the class tempo and every class seemed to have a child or few that required all the attention. Teachers were frustrated because the old system of having schools capable of handling such students were already in place, but the rolls were diminished and very few students attended because of the new guidelines. It was costing taxpayers more and their kids were not getting better education, any of them. We were never leaving any of the kids behind, educating them all. But the labels of special education were so traumatizing that the grand experiment began and failed miserably.

I know first hand the struggle of families with members suffering from a mental illness. Once did an internship on a suicide hotline. 90% of the callers weren't contemplating suicide at all, just looking for someone to talk to. The service had to set up guidelines for how many times such people could call a day, how long the conversation could be, what language was and wasn't allowed etc. It was really a community service for families dealing with these family members, as having people to talk to and vent to gave the families some measure of relief. I learned a lot about people in those six months. And I think we should all have an active "study in humanity" going on, contributing through that study in some positive, compassionate way. Whether through work, church, a swim club, sitting on a bench and watching the world go by with the occasional conversation with strangers - whatever. I don't think we should ever stop learning about the people around us and how we relate to them. It is a powerful mirror of life.

archytas

unread,
Mar 27, 2015, 8:26:45 PM3/27/15
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Gabby (or Gabriel) has raised some interesting points and left us unable to trust each other.  This is a classic intelligence trick.  And obviously hesheorit has the place bugged.  Probably doing the spontaneity bit right now Molly.  We have similar classroom scenes.  And even as an army statement, 'no man left behind' is a lie.

I think we should continue, but even Molly and I can't trust each other's identities as not Gabby-Alter.  There are ways through this.

On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 7:59:43 PM UTC, Molly wrote:
I'd say the time for such debates is now, within the relative calm. I completely understand and applaud the notion of giving people the space to learn and self govern. The no child left behind philosophy fell apart in the US when the inclusion lines fell so far beyond kids that could learn and self govern that the classrooms became chaotic and students became witnesses to teachers trying to manage disorder, and only able to do so. Kids throwing furniture, spontaneously masturbating on a regular basis and never passing a test set the class tempo and every class seemed to have a child or few that required al   the attention. Teachers were frustrated because the old system of having schools capable of handling such students were already in place, but the rolls were diminished and very few students attended because of the new guidelines. It was costing taxpayers more and their kids were not getting better education, any of them. We were never leaving any of the kids behind, educating them all. But the labels of special education were so traumatizing that the grand experiment began and failed miserably.
It is loading more messages.
0 new messages