Aliens

[facilitator]

   Throughout the discussions occasionally the topic of "Aliens", Alien life, has come up.   My view: I don't think so.  (And this from someone who has witnessed two UFO's).    What is (are) your argument(s) for believing (religious connotation) in Alien life?  

[archytas]

Apparently, atheists and Muslims are most likely to believe in aliens.  I suppose religionists are more likely to be prone to 'visions' and guess atheists (I've never quite met one) know about Drake's Law (in a universe so big there not being other life is unlikely).  Various chimera exist in our literature from times when more than a few days' walk was to enter 'alien territory'.  My alien experiences as a child were of the face at the widow kind and being terrified by dreams of golden-clawed lobsters coming out from under the bed.  Later, post-op morphine was pretty good, as was post-exhaustion on army exercises (where I asked a werewolf for directions).  

Much alien stuff is pretty religious - good guys might come offering salvation like a couple of fusion reactors and bad guys might unite us in a battle against their evil.  Joining the EU was once about salvation, just as leaving is now.  Human beings often seem pretty alien to me (touch of autism).  MumboJumbo was some kind of Congo jungle spirit used to prevent women wandering off - all rather religious.  The fantastic power of aliens in travelling space-time (Facil's sculpture is brilliantly fantastic as its constituents would melt, yet is also a symbol of escape to salvation - maybe like the Mayflower and current rickety refugee boats).

The alien in religion, especially control fraud religion like economics, can be salvation or hideous control (the sky will fall, MumboJumbo will get you, Judgement Day) - and perhaps even makes the believer alien-chosen as in Rapture.  Under dire religious control of ridiculous status quo blood debts (Lele) or banks, maybe the spirit flies to the alien - 'my invisible big brother will get you' with plagues of frogs.  Anything other than the practical, like replacing banks with block chain technologies and plastic crap economies with serious development of clean energy and space-craft that can survive space weather.

Good question Tony - I suspect I'd have to experience religion first to give an answer.  The contest between golden salamanders in hats is not my bag.  My aliens, currently diverted into tapping vacuum energy near the centre of our galaxy (this is why our super-massive blackhole is grey) 100,000 light-years away, are coming to tell us to get on with peace or they'll bomb us to kingdom come - sadly highly derivative of US (Western) foreign policy as spoken to us.  Our galaxy, they will explain, has been infected by the spider-ant slavers from Andromeda, another religious-type ploy.  How will we know they are not the spider-ants?  All we need for salvation is a small implant that will allow us to live on a higher plane.

[Molly]

There were salamanders galore in the woods and lots of kids took them home for pets, although I don't remember ever seeing a golden one.  Found this in the Fictitious and Symbolic Creatures in Art Encyclopedia:  

The salamander of mediæval superstition was a creature in the shape of a man, which lived in fire (Greek, salambeander, chimney-man), meaning a man that lives in a chimney. It was described by the ancients as bred by fire and existing in flames, an element which must inevitably prove destructive of life. Pliny describes it as "a sort of lizard which seeks the hottest fire to breed in, but quenches it with the extreme frigidity of its body." He tells us he tried the experiment once, but the creature was soon reduced to powder. *

Gregory of Nazianzen says that the salamander not only lived in and delighted in flames, but extinguished fire. St. Epiphanius compares the virtues of the hyacinth and the salamander. The hyacinth, he states, is unaffected by fire, and will even extinguish it as the salamander does. "The salamander and the hyacinth were symbols of enduring faith, which triumphs over the ardour of the passions.

Submitted to fire the hyacinth is discoloured and becomes white. "We may here perceive," says M. Portal, "a symbol of enduring and triumphant faith."

This imaginary creature is generally represented as a small wingless dragon or lizard, surrounded by and breathing forth flames. Sometimes it is represented somewhat like a dog breathing flames. A golden salamander is so represented on the garter-plate of James, Earl of Douglas, K.G., the first Scottish noble elected into the Order of the Garter, and who died 1483 A.D. Tinctured vert; and in flames proper it is the crest of Douglas, Earl of Angus.

[facilitator]

For the most part I think people consider them some sort of savior while hollywood persists in seeing them as a danger to humanity.  Science feels it would be the death blow to any remaining religious belief.  Math poses a problem to Drakes law, zero times zero is still zero.  No news is bad news on the search of radio signals.  I think many follow the Mulder theorem "I want to believe".

On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:09:34 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote:

[archytas]

Molly's salamander description is sort of alien.  Radio signals from my aliens would be 100,000 years away Tony - we would have to be able to scan the dark as they do and 'see' in different time.  Not much point in them radioing a warning about the asteroid to us!  Promethius, a poor film, has us finding nasty aliens sleeping on a distant planet and stealing one of their ships to go looking for 'who made them'.  Zero times zero is actually interesting in maths, much as infinity.  More relevant, I guess, is that there were no black swans once on the grounds of logic and lack of knowledge of Australia.  

My dogs share my world of sight, but I have to imagine (guided by some science) the world of their noses.  Hollywood is naff and its aliens all-too-human and bound in space-time.  Time to walk said animals and discuss non-commutative geometry with them (no one else listens).  This is about the order of doing things - a bit like looking at one of Facil's structures from and in different orders of perspective and cue.  The dogs listen intently until the treats run out!  Moll's salamander symbol could be the alien from Alien, given the teeth. 

[archytas]

There's a PhD attempt on the theme here - https://suny-dspace.longsight.com/bitstream/handle/1951/55962/Calvey_grad.sunysb_0771E_10436.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

[facilitator]

Link is dysfunctional.  My browser rejects it.

[archytas]

The link isn't dodgy.  You have to click on advanced when the page saying it isn't 'safe' comes up.  It really is just a PDF of a thesis on the topic.  I get a lot of these auto-protects these days to academic material.  Should have warned in advance but thought everyone would know.

The abstract considers Tony's good point on threat/salvation.

'This dissertation argues that mainstream discourse on theology and morality often fails to explore the value and credibility of different theological approaches and the possibility of moral evolution and that, as a result, we need to pay more attention to arenas which allow for deeper speculation about theology and morality. Following an observation by Margaret Atwood, I argue that one such space within literature is literary science fiction and fantasy. In my first chapter, I argue that, while some science fiction merely echoes the limitations of mainstream debate, the genres can creatively explore theological questions because, like myth and theology, they contextualize known existence and voice what I call “transcendent outsiders,” beings who are superior to humans and provide critical and comforting outside perspectives. In the second and third chapters, I draw on the work of writers such as Carl Jung, Brenda Denzler, and Linda Dégh on alien beings as spiritual/theological figures to argue that a range of narratives and films, such as The Day the Earth Stood Still and Carl Sagan’s Contact, present aliens as godlike transcendent outsider figures in ways that explore, endorse, or critique various theological conceptualizations: in chapter two, the judgmental, punishing god figures of much ancient myth and traditional religion; in chapter three, more loving, peaceful god figures echoing Eastern and New Age theological concepts and progressive spirituality. In chapter four, I argue that science fiction and fantasy also contextualize by depicting what I call “aspiring human” figures, a kind of flipside of transcendent outsiders which allows us to explore human identity and morality and, by positioning us as gods, theology. I assert that in his Wizard Knight and Short Sun series, Gene Wolfe uses an array of aspiring humans to raise deep questions about human identity, morality, and theology and to present hierarchical Christian solutions. I conclude by suggesting both a fresh approach to theology that emphasizes the need for imaginative, open-minded speculation about transcendence that goes beyond the limitations of the mainstream debate and an increased recognition of the value of science fiction and fantasy as literary arenas in which important, creative theological speculation is occurring.'

[facilitator]

Interesting read.

I like to reverse engineer things in order to get a foundation under my frail belief system.  In this regard I think there might be some plausible explanations for the lack of Alien contact.

1. We are alone in the universe. An anomalous evolutionary copulation.  An error.  A mistake.  We find ourselves at the very top of the food chain that we are ill prepared to assume responsibility for.  Somehow found the only "Sweet spot" in the galaxy.

2. We are under quarantine by a plurality of alien life that find us too dangerous to spread across the galaxy.  This might be indefinite or eternal damnation.  A rise in our own venturing inside our solar system seem to produce an uptick in "sightings".  

3. We are the aliens we are looking for and we have already settled here.  (Panspermia).  Many drawings and folklore tales of superior(?) beings visiting this planet.  Even the Bible is ripe with strange creatures (All with gift of flight) and designs of things that make no sense to the writers at the time.  Ezekiels Gyroscopic wheel.

1a)      I think the "alone in the universe" terrifies even the most ardent scientist/atheist.  Unfathomable…there must be other life.  A devotion to this "Hope" borders on religious fanaticism.   It has been stated: We don't know but there must be other life forms.  Like children seeing the Virgin Mary (How she stayed a virgin after having other children with Joseph still baffles me.)  Scientists scramble to  see water and amino acids everywhere.  

2a)      Being under quarantine is debilitating.  It means we can strive to reach the stars but it will be in vain.  Like the tower of babel when men tried to reach heaven.

I think this also to be egregious and unfair because it guaranties that life exists elsewhere.  This is the unrequited love of Earth toward the galaxy.

3a)       Not so far fetched is the idea that we are us. Or we are them.  After all this seems as a good a place as any to settle. (Or to be placed).   We ourselves seem to prefer, in the beginning, to be content, to send people to the moon before robots. Which is really a nonsensical idea.

My good friend Neil provided an interesting read which I would like to address in this way.  Science fiction of the past always makes its way into science fact.  Why is this?  Are these ideas already part of our Instinct?  Are these vain imaginations or predetermined programs?

[archytas]

The current scramble on water and amino acids includes speculation that Earth's water is older than the Earth and 'comet guns' that have shown comet impact creates the precursor chemicals.

I guess the read tells us not much is new in this area, a typical product of literature review.  There's a longer example here - http://www.dickhoutman.nl/mediatheek/files/stef_aupers__dick_houtman_religions_of_modernity_2010.pdf

'Dickhoutman' gave me a slight giggle!  There's even a journal called 'Holy Sci-fi: Science Fiction and Religion' considering such as religious robots.

Bits of science fiction turn to science fact - our current rocket and space technology thanks to Nazi war technology.  Anything much beyond the solar system hasn't.  On Facil's last point, I go back to my ants.  They 'invented' slavery long before we humans and there seems something inevitably biological about competitive advantage.  Dung beetles navigate in relation to the Milky Way and some creatures by more distant stars.  Physicists sometimes think quantum mechanics is a cosmic code and it is possible religion and science fiction are 'early interpretations' of what we can make material reality.  If "dark" exists we may start to perceive it.

Another haunting image Facil.   

[Allan H]

Recently there was  science program was on TV, one of the topics was the possibility of life within the milky way galaxy, using broad guesses at numbers. The figure he came up with is the minimum number of civilizations equal to or greater than our own would be 10 in the galaxy. With a much greater possibility for advanced civilizations.  

Allan
A Living Soul

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[archytas]

Electro-magnetic spectrum communication is very slow in the distances involved.  Some have estimated the energy needed to focus radio through lasers might be  enormous - a reason to think the silence doesn't rule out other civilisations.

One reason science fiction may have so much religious content is copying - we tell the same stories over and over, reinforcing this by restricting output to notions of what is popular in the market.

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[archytas]

There is such a thing as science fiction prototyping specifically intended to use SF in practical product development.

On Thursday, 16 October 2014 17:52:39 UTC+1, facilitator wrote:

[archytas]

An outline of SFP can be found here - https://ub-madoc.bib.uni-mannheim.de/36602/4/AISE18-0235.pdf

[facilitator]

So does anyone else here think we are alone in the universe?

Or, as I stated earlier, are we under quarantine?

[Allan]

We are not alone at all there are a minimum of 10 civilizations equal to or more advanced than our own within the milkyway galaxy alone.
I think it is more a time/distance problem.


Allan

Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 8:35 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Aliens

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[facilitator]

Your just quoting a theory.  How do you know we are not alone?

[archytas]

I'm with Facil - unless I can come up with a new geometry or we move beyond the limitations of biology.  The more I know of history the more alien I feel.  I like the quarantine image - we seem dangerous enough for that.

I can see a fairly close future in which we might be able to do rationality a bit as we drive cars, through an implant linking us to sophisticated computers (processing through mini magnetic tornadoes) that embody most of what we now call work.

[facilitator]

Ok Neil, there may in fact be, utilizing the Sci-fi theorem, another more, frightening for some, possibility and that is we are already being taken over (Like the frog in water to be boiled) incrementally.  Yes the implants will occur as easily as it is to find children and pets wearing them.  If I were an alien race I would begin to replace human parts (In the interest of modernization and medical advancement). A knee joint here, a prosthetic there, eye implants, etc. till there be not a biological human left to squabble with.  The upside, we will live forever.  The downside, we will not be us.

[Allan H]

Knee joint I'll?take 2 ~ wait a minute cancel that I all ready have 2.. airport alarms go nuts..
Actually you are right it is nothing more than best guess, never have said differently.. but let me see there is our humanoid species , the Neanderthal (seems like there areas lot of them hanging around.. and it seems like there are several more distinct variations that have been found.

To me thanks saying there is even a greater chance of another intelligent race within the galaxy.  The odds are in favor many more. Not that that it matters. Religions are always talking about angels . . That is saying there is at least one more intelligent life form.. open your miñd.

Allan
A Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

[facilitator]

Mr. Heretic,

My mind is open just enough that my brain doesn't fall out.

Relative to the size of the galaxy there are extremely low "Sweet Spots" where there is even the slightest chance that something could survive much less prosper.  There are so many factors in our own solar system that make life extremely tenuous here.  Type of sun, mass of sun, magnetic molten core of earth, heavy elements, percentage of land to water, active tectonics, mass of earth, distance to sun, Wobble of rotation, Jupiter's catchers mitt, even without the moon ocean life and therefore land life would cease to exist.  If you are that religiously zealous about odds my suggestion would be to go to Vegas immediately and drop a few.  Angelic beings, so the story is told, are not from planets.

[archytas]

Not sure I don't have brain leakage Facil - though I'm not so laid back I fall backwards with my chair - find sitting on a couch useful in this respect.  There is some kind of evidence the bit of the galaxy we are in is a bubble of some kind.

[facilitator]

Yes Neil,

The bubble theory has been volleyed about.  There seems to be something missing so we try to fill it with things called dark matter and such.  Lack of material for re-coalesce and therefore the questions arise, (Philosophical at this juncture), why does anything exist at all? A non-repeating universe is scientifically very troublesome.  The bubble gives boundary to something that should not have form at all.  The universe seems to matter a great deal to us and yet I am left with some cognition that it is not even aware of our existence as a species.

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 1:20:23 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote:

Not sure I don't have brain leakage Facil - though I'm not so laid back I fall backwards with my chair - find sitting on a couch useful in this respect.  There is some kind of evidence the bit of the galaxy we are in is a bubble of some kind.

 Sentinels!  Stay frosty!

[Allan]

That is some old depictions of the ort cloud surrounds the solar system. Essentially it is the outer edge of the magnetic sphere that surrounds the solar system.

Allan
Living Soul

[archytas]

This bubble has something to do with the density of neutral hydrogen.  Facil is right the theories are incomplete and something is always being added.  According to Lakatos, anomalies eventually lead to the collapse of the core of a research programme and the emergence of a new core.  The current view, perhaps thought of as the constraints of the speed of light in vacuum, is bleak without something like Allan's souls.  I'm more materialist and believe ideology is much to blame.

I tend to see religion and science as in no confict (other than of Inquisition-style politics).  The real conflict is with economics telling us we can't do the right things and a lack of sensitively policed goodwill.  I doubt religion or science have any argument worth a candle on this and we need a 'driveable scenario'.

[Allan]

Personally religion and science fit together. Yes i think the way you put it Neil is correct
.  it is the politics that is the problem.

Allan
Living Soul

[archytas]

The politico-economic Inquisition sure shows itself against peaceful religion and sensible scientific criticism.

[Allan H]

It is really kind of strange that on alter the perspective even a little insights change perspective. The slight changes of words create platforms on which to build and clarify.

It is all the illegal aliens fault.

Allan
A Living Soul


-----Original Message-----

From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Aliens

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[archytas]

We call that the UKIP solution here.  We are in the process of setting up an 'inquiry into establishment sex abuse' here.  So far, they have tried to put an 81 year old judge related to one of the likely perpetrators  (she was also married to a dodgy prostitute-loving judge) in charge.  Then they put up a commercial solicitor who lived a few doors away from another likely perp she used to invite to dinner parties.  The excuse they roll out is it is almost impossible to imagine anyone qualified enough to run the inquiry not knowing potential perps.  They never think to appoint one of us aliens.

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[Molly]

sounds like the perps are well funded, and so are the judges

[facilitator]

it is not unlikely that all religions started with an observable fact but then morphed into hypothesis.  Both sides look for more facts and relics to back up claims.  The problem is faith needs no facts. If it did what would be the point of faith?  And science needs tons of faith to support theoretical papers. Irony!

[Allan H]

What is said: "Follow the money."

Allan
A Living Soul

[Allan H]

Sorry to disappoint you Tony, my faith is based off what I personally have observe and experienced, Science and religion have provided a base for relations of this ideas and experiences. Wisdom of the ages has a lot to offer. The ‘morphed' ideas of today leave s lot to be desired in my opinion, I read them occasionally I see something of of value.

Allan
A Living Soul

[facilitator]

There is no point in apologizing, I am not disappointed.  I am ambivalent as to how you derive your belief system.  In order to be efficacious, faith must be unreasonable.

[Allan]

No Tony  Faith is how you live your life. In hinduism it is known as dharma. You are free walk your life by any standard you choose.
Actions speak louder than words. You can not hide from yourself, the problem is denial is not a river in Egypt. Karma  is your soul's accountability for its actions of your soul in this reality ..

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>

To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Aliens

[Molly]

I whole heartedly disagree with your last statement here.  Faith can be beyond reason, but doesn't need to be necessarily. It is reasonable for me to believe that living by the ten commandments can lead to as good a life as living by Stephen Covey's 7 habits. It may not be reasonable to believe that after I have lost everything of value in this world, the Lord will provide and things will get better.  My experience is, they do. Is it because I believe? That might be a reasonable explanation.

[facilitator]

Once faith leaves the realm of "unreasonable" it becomes fact.  Your belief system may incorporate faith, but it is not necessary.  You can claim belief in substantive things or ideals or nor at all.  It is a mechanism.   Facts and probabilities are also part of a valid belief system but faith requires that the adherent relies on the metaphysical.

[Molly]

I don't agree that everything reasonable is factual but there you have it.  We are probably both wrong.

[facilitator]

Good, I don't agree that everything reasonable is factual either.  I was expressly referring to the line between faith and reason.  

[archytas]

Tony sounds a lot like Wittgenstein in his 'lectures on religious belief', perhaps most easily summarised by the end of his paper 'lecture on ethics'.  'My whole tendency and I believe the tendency of all men who ever tried to write or talk Ethics or Religion was to run against the boundaries of language.  This running against the walls of our cage is perfectly, absolutely helpless.  Ethics so far as it springs from the desire to say something about the ultimate meaning of life, the absolute good, the absolute valuable, can be no science.  What it says does not add to our knowledge in any sense.  But it is a document of a tendency in the human mind which I personally cannot help respecting deeply and I would not for my life ridicule it'.

I suspect we are alien.  Maybe to ship across space-time, we had to assume extremely primitive form (space weather is a killer of advanced biology and technology), and at some point we get advanced enough to set up a 'receiver' that will allow our more advanced yet previous civilisation to come?  To get to Mars in reasonable time, it would be handy to have a base there to fire fuel at our ships to slow them down.

It is harder than Wittgenstein says not to ridicule.  We might expect the best team to win in games like rugby league - yet I would say my team lost in the semifinal because an injury put out our best passer, meaning the replacement was in his position and unable to give the winning pass (I'd have managed on my Zimmer).  This left the team that beat us the best team in the final.  Then they got a man sent off for two dire punches (in a rush of blood) and lost to the third best team.  The black swan flies!  Maybe life is tough and then you die.  The rules of conviction and conversion in religion are not rational, and rules are always subject to gaming and fate.  It is a mistake to think science and religion speak the same language, though what is said shares the same actors and (my guess) the same deep iconography.

[archytas]

The human speaking in the present in front of us is subject to history, eventually biology and the 'big bang' of a universe evolving.  I doubt, say, that Molly and I speak the 'same' language of words, though over the years it's clear we do share a great deal of meaning.  I find the credibility of conviction difficult - indeed credibility itself as a weapon in argument.  Incredulity, on the other hand, does not have to make comfort impossible, and without thought of reconstruction, deconstruction is not true to itself, relying on belief in a better society after all truth revealed in the main destruction (so anarchy is very religious).  I don't know what has Molly believing in a beneficent god.  It doesn't matter to me.  Molly's Molly.  I would be lying if I evinced religious conviction - she isn't.  More dangerous are creeps like Tony Blair evincing conviction.

[facilitator]

To be convinced of a thing doesn't mean I am convinced of that thing.  To pose the question doesn't mean I do not know the answer, nor the reciprocal.  The answers I seek are the walls or boundaries of current thought.  I am happy to know I have convinced myself but often seek the voracity of others beliefs to test my own.  This is not an inquisition on my part but rather a building of walls that are sturdier than my own hands can sometimes make.  I do find it a bit odd that in this forum the birdie barely makes it over the net before a fowl is called.  Maybe it is a virus of social weariness.  Maybe each having given so much blood as to despise the thought of sharing an ounce of hemoglobin, coming up against the briars and thickets, as if something were to be forever lost in the searching.  Perhaps it is the laughs we don't share between the sips of tea.  Cast me in the shallow waters before I get too deep.

[Allan]

I was reading or rather rereading
I started thinking about the word alien , so I looked the word up and part of the definition.

Alien: • Any life form of extraterrestrial origin.

Strange thought occurred to me, my thinking along the lines of a soul, the soul would qualify a an alien. I know my soul is real controlling my body. Was my body created to study human life? That creates some strange set of new questions .

Allan

Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Aliens

[Molly]

Interesting notion, if a soul is created, how is it also eternal? How could it be created with intent and purpose? The cause and effect of soul (karma) is not necessary and can be transcended. So, can soul be changing and eternal?

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[Molly]

Not all of us require someone else's blood to find our way.  I suppose in here we respect that.

[archytas]

Brilliant mixed metaphors from Facil - 'golf and ducks' perhaps ... the boundaries of human thought lead mainly to head-banging against them.  Art and literature seem badly hindered (perhaps gelded) by genre boundaries - art less so away from the direct sales pitch and chocolate box picture.  The 'fourth wall' is a genre though Tony.  Molly points to an important problem - I sense this even if I can't frame the problem much and have no answers - a sign of boundary singularity.  I wrote a few chapters on Allan's theme of 'alien ethnography' some years back.

My view was that the aliens were studying a simulation of their own past here.  This is a new universe, created by beings from others.  The story cannot be completed without resort to magic concerning space-time travel (the quarantine problem of the speed of light).  In genre terms, one faces the long history of religious myths and Attic tragedy - sending humans into space to play out old soap opera or Nietzsche's pathetic journey into the molten pit of reality and coming back to no one listening (this is derivative of earlier work).  The aliens are either evil (what could they want of us unless our huge brains are cultivated as a sweetmeat?) or salvationists.  Let's face it, we aren't good enough at sex for that to be an interest.

The 'knock down' issues I sense as key.  I go queezy, almost robbed of words or representation - urged to 'paint it upside down Neil' things get worse - I feel like a talentless outsider under the 20 ton anvil of 'positive manners', expected to speak Undead languages of magic procedures like monetary policy.  Refusal leads to the instant knock down that I know nothing of economics and can be safely regarded as a blowhard,  Studying insects, one finds a consensus formation of piercing shrieks and hygiene procedures of fascists.

I saw a lecturer evaluation the other day.  The complaint was he set essays where there was no easy evidence to support the themes.  What a horror!  Most students prefer drivel like 'compare and contrast process and content theories of work motivation' - where the evidence (copying opportunities) lie in the answer given in chapter three of a standard management text not worth reading (they are never read, just copied from).

One is first engaged in systems theory when one looks at the world through the eyes of another.  Imagine a world in which work becomes embodied in machine.  One might write here on such as the move from cottage weaving to factories or invent a world through new eyes involving quite near technology that allows anyone to do accounting or even surgery.  Such thought is highly deconstructive - as was the move to factories, during enclosures and such.  The primary deconstruction concerns much we have come to hold dear.  Wittgenstein 'hides' ridicule in speaking of not doing it.  Economists and politicians still speak "groaf jawbs" without being shot.  When they talk of hard work they surely never do any - that's on slave boats producing our shrimp.  We resist technology because it takes the jawbs we hate, but need to keep the wolf from the door until we win the lottery.  Molly's beneficent god can seem to me like the blandishment of 'comparative advantage' - a key myth in economic control fraud - though I know she is talking of something else.  The god of comparative advantage will fix all while one rots on the unemployment heap with the magic wand of a dud 18th century thought experiment being waved to tell you it is for the greater good.

Dogs need a walk.  These are the most rational creatures I have found on Earth so far Allan!  About 20 yards up the road, Max will give me a look of gratitude and admiration.  The walls, as in containment (what do you keep anti-matter in when it enters into annihilation with matter?) are built with fear. 

[Allan]

The soul like everything else is created from the essence of God. God is uncreated and eternal and beyond

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[facilitator]

Created? Or a portion thereof?

When I speak of the human race being alone I am speaking essentially of it being 1 person.

[facilitator]

It was a metaphor, I am not seeking anyones blood even though it seems to be as the gold standard of thought.  I respect everyone.  I don't own the bullet or the gun.  I suppose if I continue to push further west I must encounter several wagon circles.

[Molly]

"Maybe each having given so much blood as to despise the thought of sharing an ounce of hemoglobin, coming up against the briars and thickets, as if something were to be forever lost in the searching. "

I don't find the bleeding or sacrifice or pain of crawling through thickets a necessary part of the search anymore, and have noticed others in here have given it up as well, with the notions of opinion conquest, purgation or evidentiary proof.  I have, over the years, seen the culture of ME bubble into war and then settle back down into something more peaceful and conducive to self exploration through group dynamic.  I have also seen members loosen their grip on the views they hold tight and watch those views open and the language that explains them change.  It is a wonderful thing. I include myself in this of course.

I don't find a benevolent God in my life, I find that I am not separate from God, or my experience, or others AND, paradoxically, I AM Molly, an individual. Thus, I am eternal and infinite, also finite and time limited.  A design as mysterious as time itself.  Once in awhile, in my own confusion, I can't see past the finite aspects of myself, forget that my placement in that unity and paradox is what brings the design's revelations into my experience.  Happily, that doesn't last too long anymore, and has become the exception, not the rule.

If there are aliens, they are a part of me I have not yet recognized, and so, have no view or experience of them to share.  Still waiting. But I am not going to hold my breath because perhaps, just maybe, if nothing is alien, the notion is irrelevant. 

[archytas]

I wasn't really thinking golf either Facil.  Though with birdies, eagles and albatross (two on a par 5), a fowl might be breaking the opponent's leg with a swing at the first.  To see the connections between "Molly's god" and comparative advantage one needs both stories.  I am not unhappy with the first, but see the latter as fit only for ridicule as a religious story proved not to work.  Students arrive in undergrad economics generally unaware how money is created - true in general of ordinary conversation regarding almost everything - hence our Blue Peter newsrooms (the paradigm case of a patronising children's programme here).

This group, even when bigger, has never been good on ad hom and the negative and I've never seen much clue on the nature of argument as very restricted (this is the academic view beyond text books and the rote teachers).  Max Weber, perhaps the master of 'cold dispassion' was mad for a few years before he came to that fiction.  Creative people are generally not trusted, perhaps because they so easily note morals, values and law are conventions (like money) and could be gone tomorrow.

[archytas]

Darn it Moll - I thought you were the one unchanging set of addresses in space-time in my life!

[archytas]

Is time a mystery?  We have a theory bound by rods and clocks bound up in space that may be 'full'.  Light is at light-speed as soon as it hits space.  Yet we think of aliens 100,000 light-years away as operating in the same time as us, even if so distant we could never meet them in a lifetime.  We don't seem to be able to access this time is all.  All this stems from the conservation of momentum - and we have no satisfactory explanation of our conservation laws.  I'm always struck Columbus' voyage was only 34 days (out).  Time was different then on the absence of steel ships and the refrigerator.  What might it be in the future? 

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 5:23:58 PM UTC+1, Molly wrote:

[archytas]

Much of my own view in there RP.  The possibility of this world-view in the hands of the wrong practical, worldly authority is, sadly, terror, caste and slavery - sad features of much biology and the narcissist.  Most better ways are subject to corruption in desire.

On Thursday, October23, 2014 5:52:29 PM UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:

", I find that I am not separate from God, or my experience, or others AND, paradoxically, I AM Molly, an individual. Thus, I am eternal and infinite, also finite and time limited.  A design as mysterious as time itself."

People attach too much importance to their existence and profess that they are in reality the source as well , maybe it is because of the survival instinct that we assume to survive as God. But God or the reality was always there when I the individual was not, and is now, and will be there when I will not be. I , the individual is just a bubble in the ocean whereas the Reality is the ocean itself. A bubble has no permanency and is transient and illusory , it is the Ocean in which it arose that is real.

[Allan]

So you are saying you are the only human..  Interesting

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----

From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>

To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Aliens

[facilitator]

Alone is alone. Corporate humanity or a single individual on a rock.  The meaning is the same.  The universe is expanding with no foreseeable hope of re-coelescing.  As we travel through the vacuum our spaceship earth is less and less likely to be accompanied by the "Others".

[facilitator]

I must be bumping into a God that is benevolent since I am still able to breathe on my own.

[Allan]

My I say RP you have come a long way from the book thumping you started with.. Your view is very interesting.

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Aliens

", I find that I am not separate from God, or my experience, or others AND, paradoxically, I AM Molly, an individual. Thus, I am eternal and infinite, also finite and time limited.  A design as mysterious as time itself."

People attach too much importance to their existence and profess that they are in reality the source as well , maybe it is because of the survival instinct that we assume to survive as God. But God or the reality was always there when I the individual was not, and is now, and will be there when I will not be. I , the individual is just a bubble in the ocean whereas the Reality is the ocean itself. A bubble has no permanency and is transient and illusory , it is the Ocean in which it arose that is real.

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 9:53 PM, Molly <moll...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Allan]

Oddly the time is the present, the past is but a record ..

Allan
Living Soul

[facilitator]

I wasn't aware that creatives were found untrustworthy.  I find that baring the soul with illustration and grandiose or diminutive works should allow folks to see the transparent nature of any deceptiveness.  But you are probably right, I would never trust an artist to mind my dogs.  My conclusion so far is that people respond to the voice they hear rather than the responder elucidating.  And I suppose as well that an eloquent Satan is still just as voracious.

[archytas]

The stuff I've seen is quasi-psychology.  Creatives are more likely to cheat - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111128121547.htm - and go for the answers that pay more!  Another paper - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110903142411.htm - has these findings on resistance to creative ideas

• Creative ideas are by definition novel, and novelty can trigger feelings of uncertainty that make most people uncomfortable.
• People dismiss creative ideas in favor of ideas that are purely practical -- tried and true.
• Objective evidence shoring up the validity of a creative proposal does not motivate people to accept it.
• Anti-creativity bias is so subtle that people are unaware of it, which can interfere with their ability to recognize a creative idea.

The literature, as I'm prone to say, is legion and generally dull (I used to teach 'creativity').  Apparently, being 'social outcasts' helps us be creative and we are inclined to see rejection as coming from dullards who just can't get us.  How are you fixed to sit my dogs Tony - just to prove I'm not one of the anti-arty set!  So onward beyond the wagon circles - the natives are more likely to attack there anyway.  We may find Gabby out there, complaining Molly has stolen all her needles for a knitting circle.

[facilitator]

My God Neil…I love your standup and glad it is not a routine!  I'm good with dogs.  Maybe not much better with people though.  Perhaps a "heavy petting zoo" would resolve some angst.

I will pass on the creative info to my not so friendly peers at the art dump.  They will scoff.  Which is actually a good thing.  I have to conclude that about ninety percent of people are opposed to change while the other ten percent of people like things the way they are.

Tony

[archytas]

My partner Sue is a psychologist - or at least has a first class degree in such and hence views the subject with even less credibility than me.  There is some stuff called critical psychology she can tolerate - practitioners might listen attentively to the interminable on personality and then ask what personality is.  Our dogs would like you.  They seem to make most of our decisions ... or at least the ones left over by the cat.

Your friends would be right to scoff.  I could send enough papers to bury them, but there are easier ways to get the joke.  Trapped in one of these psychological laboratories I'd probably cheat to glean a little amusement.  I'm more interested in how 'ordinary decent people' do such rotten things as not investigating the sexual exploitation of young kids or running bent banks - matters too dangerous for these psychologists.  To be creative is probably to be heretic and I have little doubt the ordinary will burn us at the drop of a mob mood - but there are plenty of pretend heretics in the establishment zoo wearing frocks or comedians' masks.  Tony Blair after all, was only Margaret Thatcher in drag, both comedians in one sense of the term.

The galaxies are flying apart because of dark energy (which we have never 'seen').  Maybe Bose-Einstein condensate dark matter (which we have never 'seen') will act as a recoiling spring at some point?  Maybe big bang never happened and we need to work out more of what constructs what we witness now - a new thermodynamics of what pathways work and what don't (David Deutsch).  But let's face it, we can't even stop those in charge burning the planet or local kids here dropping litter!

[facilitator]

My dogs have me well trained in deed.  We are the higher intellect but how come they can understand words like "walk" and we can't distinguish a single bark.  Actually I have learned the "I gata pee bark."   I confuse dark energy with dark matter.  

    Yes, even the term big bang (A quantum singularity wouldn't be big and sound does not travel in the vacuum of space) is why we fail to understand, better yet, why most are content to let others do the thinking.  Fi-sci.  Stephen Hawking, pretty much just a powerful mind with a useless body saying there is no all powerful mind in a non-body controlling the universe. Oh the contortion in the irony!  On my way to work this morning and wondering what the hell is the universe so big for? 1 galaxy should have sufficed.  And they are accelerating away from each other?   It would thrill me to no end concluding that this is somehow a random anomaly and yet we are here with the ability to question.  Could this be our own making?  Like a carnival ride "Hey let's do this again only this time we will close our eyes and erase our memory so it can be more fun"   What if, as Moly suggested, we are the alien in our own body?  Maybe God is learning?  Why do kids have such a strange connection to dinosaurs?  Could it be that a child conceived them?  Maybe that was their glory but undoing?  Children dropping litter? How about adults tossing a cigarette butt and then complaining about the state of the planet?

I confuse dark energy with dark matter. 

 Dark, definition: Who the phuck knows?

[Gabby]

Mr Trade Mark self-acclaimed facilitator, I don't know why you are doing this, but I would have found suffocation an acceptable death.

Connectivism is the new Wahlverwandschaften, replacing the having not been able to choose my family background undemocratic aspect of blood-lines. No I without you, so we create resounding avatars to be filled with selectable projections I can choose from. 

I happened to take "Minds Eye" on my smart phone to an artist talk the other day. So while he was demonstrating and elaborating on the strict formalistic setting on the genesis of his latest piece of art, making point after point of how his design acts as a time accelerator, I cheated and looked into what you had come up with here in the meantime. I found it fitted well with the framed canvas depicting layers upon layer of organic flattening. It actually lifted me up a bit. :)

Maybe it is only the degree of alienation that is left as a marker to be able to differentiate between God and Creator.

[Molly]

It's just a ride (longer schtick available if you enjoy this)  http://youtu.be/OtCmCN3ZTas

[archytas]

Don't tell the dogs about the size of the universe Facil - they'll demand longer walks.  Sue describes Max's shorter walk round the block as his 'newsreading round'.

A lot I'd like to be alien from me that arises in my desires.  The best philosophers of science will entertain on our condition is bridled rationality.  I wonder on individuality - partly our obvious trip to paranoid narcissism and partly on how much we are capable of the subjective.  UFO reports are usually chronic copies and much of the academy is monkish in its copying and repeatedly teaches these copies.  Much passing as literature and art could obviously be produced by programs.  'Man wearing dress' does the marketing.

Socially approved epistemic authority in strong form tends to kill innovation.  My sense is it has moved from Inquisition-like institutions into a kitsch-like structure that may allow, say, your sculpture or my stand-up, because artists and comics are unreliable and just entertainment.  Hard to get a grip on the kitsch-jelly.  The plebs will never understand us and it's easy enough to get us feeding at the Establishment Zoo.  One prankster threw himself off a fairly tall building with a cine-camera.  This was the second in his line of pain art, called 'Movie On The Way Down'.  In the first he shot himself in the arm.  This is hardly Einstein pondering on why Maxwell's (not my dog's) equations didn't fit with the experimental evidence of Hopf and others and producing a kinematics that made sense of both.  Yet Einstein was working in a social milieu and we would have had Relativity without him - indeed we would credit Lorentz, Poincare, Planck, Hopf, Hilbert and others (as the man himself). Our grand education systems graduate people who barely know the names, let alone the theory constructions.  Einstein recommended jumping off cliffs to understand observation on the move.  This, of course, was a thought experiment.

I'm into the idea of embodiment - much we regard as personal, individual skill can be embodied in technology (and already is).  What scares me is how little we know about this as a society and general inabilities in discussion.  If only I could take to wearing frocks!

[archytas]

S21E19 - the whale and the squirt - Simpsons.  The current account of the Simpsons is clearly too high. To reduce costs and to be independent of the power company, they decide to install in the garden of their house a wind power plant. What the Simpsons have not occurred: Without wind, there is now no longer current. After Bart sends a prayer to heaven, unexpectedly comes to a storm, which restores the power supply. However, a Walweibchen is washed up on the beach by the force of the wind, which immediately conquered Lisa's heart.  Humpback whales can be identified by their fluke.  Set your art to Wagner for the German market Tony.  I get a kick out of it anyway.  Nice Gabbers, old bean.

[facilitator]

I think only Allen had an issue with my initials being ™.     T  M as it turns out were my parents doing.  Never self proclaimed.  I am glad the imagery brought you some measure of satisfaction. As an artist that is my highest goal.  

[facilitator]

A little help here would be nice:   @ Gabby  " I don't know why you are doing this, but I would have found suffocation an acceptable death."

Is this an inquiry?  Clearly, this is not clear to me.

[Allan]

Tony sound does travel through the vacuum of space. Just because you can not hear it does not mean it is absent.

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----

From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Aliens

--

[Allan]

A lady brought a ¿longa? A mans clothing in burma essentially a tube dress.. It is comfortable, wear it all the time.

Allan
Living Soul

[Allan]

™ is an international mark for trademark, your initials are TM not the international mark for a trademark. I am the holder of a government issued ™ your attempt to claim it as your initials abuses what the symbol is for.

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

[archytas]

Sound travels by compressing a medium - we might shock space with sound compressing distance.  Fetch round the total power of a couple of galaxies and we'll give it  try Allan.  Molecules needed to transmit sound are hard to come by in space and space would need a lot of work on it to efficiently transmit sound.  TM sense here - Tony is not trying to invade Poland to start his campaign to own a symbol.

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[facilitator]

OMG!   Neil how is it you can be brilliant and hilarious at the same time?  Although now, after some thought, I think many comics are closet geniuses.  

[Allan H]

The sounds of solar eruptions are recorded the time. Space is filled with medium.

Allan
A Living Soul

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[facilitator]

Give it a minute Allan.  And think, was I referring to the singularity or not?

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[Allan H]

Sorry Not you were not around to best the singularity .. at he very beginning the density of matter would have been the extreme.. even today the density of matter is enough to hear solar flares or eruptions.
How could believe heard any sound or no sound when you were not there.

[gabbydott]

No, I'm not having an issue-issue with you on this. I just don't understand why you decided to breathe new life into this dying group. 

2014-10-24 19:34 GMT+02:00 'facilitator' via "Minds Eye" <mind...@googlegroups.com>:

A little help here would be nice:   @ Gabby  " I don't know why you are doing this, but I would have found suffocation an acceptable death."

Is this an inquiry?  Clearly, this is not clear to me.

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[Allan H]

Are you dying Gabby? Why do you at it is dying? Are we not plowed o enjoy ourselves discussing much snout nothing?

Allan
A Living Soul

[archytas]

This is what happens when you read most of your books on the toilet.

[archytas]

Thursdays would find Elander Borg serving crusty bread and pea and ham soup in the work's canteen.  Point out grammatical errors in this, and Elander would suggest a speedy experience of sex and outbound travel to a land where people expected Thursdays to have consciousness.  Meaning had little to do with the red pens of English teachers.  What decent person would teach a language with prime directives of ambiguity and deception?  You needed statistics for reliable communing.  This was much more exciting than literature fixated on surfacing women's sexual repression and endless copies of Attic tragedy, matters all Greek to a Swede.

[archytas]

Elander turns out to be alien.

Experimental language is tough - if it's not dull and boring with the enthusiast twist demanded in teacher training, it just can't be factual.  Education must be done in the hair-shirt of seriousness and that patronising politesse that assumes the audience stupid enough to think of Thursdays doing anything.  There's an allusion to modal (many worlds) logic, though the English teacher, with no real conception of logics would red pen on the grammar and politesse she soaked up from another English teacher.  Manners and habits=learning might be seen by the alien as part of our self-destruction.

[facilitator]

Ah yes, the red pen!   My work was bloodied often by the regurgitator.

[andrew vecsey]

What do you attribute to the 2 UFOs you have witnessed?
In my opinion, this universe is as filled with life to the point like in an arctic tundra or desert and a lush rain forest. And if I had to make a bet, I would bet on something in between.

On Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:52:39 PM UTC+2, facilitator wrote:

   Throughout the discussions occasionally the topic of "Aliens", Alien life, has come up.   My view: I don't think so.  (And this from someone who has witnessed two UFO's).    What is (are) your argument(s) for believing (religious connotation) in Alien life?  

[Gabby Thiede]

Gees, Neil, am I glad that I remorphed the alien nation to allow you to get your point across. :))

As for your sentence, the pea and ham soup was the key that this was not happening in a German canteen. "der Elan" and "borg" (= borrow) otherwise looks like a very attractive male service person to me.

 

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[facilitator]

The two ufo's were many years apart and quite different in nature.  The first was metallic and had colored lights around the perimeter.  It stayed in 1 place for about a half hour. Many people reported it.  Then it slowly faded from sight.  I looked at it through binoculars and it was a bit of a oval disc shape.  The second was a very large and reddish light that was hovering in the sky at about 10 O'clock north, north east.  It only appeared for a few minutes and I was not able to pull my car over in time to get a decent pic. A person I know saw the same thing and they were 12 miles away from me. I don't attribute them to anything since they were unidentifiable.  It would be a bit presumptuous of me to say definitively that they must be proof of alien life.

[archytas]

Quite reasonable Facil - my own experiences have turned out to have dull explanations, like flying lanterns, or extreme exhaustion, drugs (usually medicinal).  The alien proctologists are best done by South Park.

Interesting Gabby - a work's canteen with decent food more or less rules out England.  British Rail used to do the management serving workers thing once a year at their staff college.  I once worked with a Swede who probably only knew what day it was on pea and ham soup Thursdays,  Elander Borg turns out not to have gender, being largely arachnid in biological origin.

[gabbydott]

You mean your Elander Borg. Okay. 

Actually I think - in the sense of thinkthink - the "key" concept in my interpretation crept in because I notice Molly is absent and Molly thinks in terms of "keys". Which would then explain why I stumbled over peas and ham and lead me back to Dr. Suess,  a heroic sweetifyer who never quite made it here in Germany. And no, the time pattern I see Molly operating on is not the Thursdays mode.

[archytas]

We might say Dr Suess didn't travel well, not even to the 51st State here, lacking the edge of Danger Mouse, space-flight capability of Dr Snuggles and Penfold's PhD in fear and knee-trembling.  I know you are developing the 'key-needle' concept in your secret laboratory (I have my sources).  We are still resisting the invasion of Aldi here on the grounds of preferring choice between 20 versions of foreign cheddar rather than the choice to pay 40% less for one cheese that tastes like all the others.  I find keys rather useful on the wrong side of a locked door, though needles are more relevant to the world of bubbles we seem to inhabit.  The highly skilled German manufacturing machine produces one third of European cheese, is 97% self-sufficient in food generally compared with 64% in the UK (87% pre-Thatcher).  Britain, of course, 'works smart', exploiting its massive deficiency in maths, competing in finance against the vastly superior SE Asian quantitative capability and now imports 60% of her cheese.  'Cheese' is key in the dynamic 'bubbleeconomy' - something one might have thought the smartmoney would have noticed given the highly uneducated, unskilled Germans (who had 16 times more people in technical training than the UK in 1910) make so much of it in their hapless, low unemployment, generally high-wage, self-sufficient, exporting economy.  The Germans also manufacture many high-tech products, in factories with decent, subsidised canteens, such as pencils (the vorsprung durch technik bleistift) instead of sensibly subsidising banks to engage in criminal activity and tax-losses.  Dr Suess was just a cheese too far.

Gabby's eternal needle-key conflict with Molly is, of course, a diversion from the alien plan to destroy the US economy through excessive water drinking, seen most vividly in California and Neddy Seagoon's cunning strategy to drain the great lakes, both close to fruition.  Britain, with its vast on tap from the sky water supplies, plays its usual balance of power strategum.  Its all very cheesy.

The alien is, of course, found in madness - something we have been defining from an already insane sanity.  The Germany once led by a drug-addicted, gas-shocked, one time rent-boy (a key qualification for British SIS) British agent (turned in pre-Beatles Liverpool) - is now long gone, replaced by the world's most sophisticated economy making cheese from Russian gas.  We have all been eating oil and gas for a very long time, too economically insophisticate to realise.

Elander Borg creates himself from the projections around him - not unlike Bill Gates creating the image of a company built on the creativity he found alone in a garage and nothing to do with his mother being a director at IBM.  I make no claim to invention.  Is the above madness, or metaphor not yet made myth?  Germany is undoubtedly the world's most sophisticated, educated and trained economy - how could anything else produce Gabby, cheese and pencils (my Volkswagen was made in Portugal, complete with additional annoying rattle).  Groaf-jawbs people - the alien plan to make us burn our own planet.  How do we fight the alien spider-ant matriarch without the needle-antidote to her pheromone economics?  We are innovative - when Seagoon's plan to set the English Channel on fire failed due to inadequate Swedish matches, we invented UKIP. 

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[Allan]

Dr Seuss does travel does travel well, I have "Green eggs and ham," and a couple others on my phone. They are great when an escape is needed..
A great hidden key...

Allan
Living Soul

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Aliens

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[archytas]

But you are an American Allan.  I say this before Gabby needle-points your view into a tableau full of holes.  Paddington's marmalade sandwiches are better fodder, let alone the space for Peruvian marching powder in his hat.  I fancy Marsupial Mouse, an antipodean rodent that howls at the Moon (true) and carries a forensic science kit in his pouch (fiction) - Tony to illustrate ...

Green eggs and ham will not power your phone - that's what the wire with a plug on and the hamster-wheel socket are for.

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[archytas]

You mentioned above that 'alone is alone' Tony.  I tend to distinguish between loneliness (which I easily experience among humans) and solitude - the latter being very comforting.  We are never alone in another sense.  Our bodies have about ten trillion cells and we carry a hundred trillion bacteria and various small body-dwellers.  Inside the cells, our energy-makers are mitochondria, thought to have once been parasitic bacteria whose ATP (energy currency) we have reversed.  The 'dark' rushes through us all the time - axions from the Sun are a current suggestion (could we be 'holograms' supported by such?) - and our perception seems to work by focusing-out (there are about 20 senses - making 6th sense awareness a bit puny).

Various experiments we can do in class show we tend to 'see' what is said first as a collective - such as two equal lines being 'seen' as one longer than the other once a couple pf stooges have said so first.  I'm waiting for a trip with aliens who give me a 'capitalism disperser' to bring back!  Their art was so wonderful and fascinating I forgot to bring the device back on the last voyage.

On Saturday, October 25, 2014 8:38:33 PM UTC+1, facilitator wrote:

[archytas]

ET?  This is a virus - increasingly being found living in symbiosis with our bacteria (elsewhere they are aggressive as in killing hosts to replicate themselves).

[facilitator]

Loneliness yes, is a feeling.  Sometimes wonderful, sometimes debilitating.  My cells do seem to enjoy being a part of something bigger.  The alone I speak of is the individual soul.   Many would like to think we are part of some larger "Soul Pool", not the Don Cornelius type.  Not sure how this would fit with the population growth but I can't prove anything doesn't exist either. (That's confusing but true).  But I hold to the snowflake theorem.  Each of us a very unique individual never to be repeated and lasting but a nanosecond in terms of life span when placed on a history graph.   Everyone around me may also be just my matrix dream or I theirs.  When I die, I know for a fact, everything ceases to exist along with me.  It is based on a relativity.  Everyone in the world is living in my perceptive reality.  I am the only observer.

The Black and White Years:  The power to change.  lyrics are decent.

http://youtu.be/S6YGrawORu4

[Allan]

True, i have read those stories for my kids for many years. Oddly I till like listening to them. My children read them to me. They learned to read with expression rather than a drool monotone. (Sigh. Memories)

I am still working the hamster wheel generator. Joey my min pin is having serious objections.

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[gabbydott]

I never hammered out a piece of the Berlin Wall, never had a piece stamped and certified as an original piece, and never sold one. Nothing I forgot to bring back. 

And yes, it gives me the cringes when I hear the collectivist "all one" pronounciation nowadays. They who have embodied it, feel it immediately.

Am Sonntag, 26. Oktober 2014 schrieb archytas :

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[Allan]

Well if you know for a fact you cease to exist on your death. You know some awfully strange facts, but you are not alone as I have heard that many times.

Strange I have never seen any supporting evidence. Just same old rhetoric.

 

Allan
Living Soul

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