What could the internet be?

[archytas]

Most of my use of the internet concerns researching pretty dire academic papers and books through still largely restricted access.  It's much cheaper than buying the stuff directly, particularly as 99% of what shows up is dross.  I've played with the rest to find out what is there.  Search is a big plus compared with rooting through stuff in a university library.  Now, much google search just turns up dross I don't want.

In an academic project we are interested in what is on the net generally - in terms of how much of general consciousness this represents.  Rational discussion is a tiny part of what is on the net.  Techies spend a lot of time looking for cut and paste code and ways we might automate this sweep.  There is a background idea that we are looking for new ways to do 'expert knowledge' on the metaphor of people not being able to build cars but able to drive them with a bit of training.  My own bad is 'big data' as a new language that would bring a different speed to human discourse and potentially control of the means of production.

Lately, I'm interested in the lack of a business model for anything except trash.  I can join a site where a couple of young women will send me off-the-peg clothes on approval to ensure my sartorial elegance, though don't.  There are plenty of interesting Moochs, but I don't have time.  I bank n line and have the joy of never seeing a bank clerk. Shopping can be done in the same manner as shops don't interest me at all.  My insurance renewals are always 30% higher than I can get the same cover for via one of the broker sites on the day.

I do electronic teaching.  So I'm no longer racked by whatever diseases undergraduate classes try to kill me with.  And I never see a boss or have to attend a useless staff meeting, or have my classes flooded as the students discover I'm an easier touch and tell jokes.  The work is more or less pre-prepared and my timetable is not changed at ridiculous short notice and I don't have to take time to teach kids from other classes, at my door because they can't get anywhere with the guy supposed to help.

I can watch television and films through illegal sites, but would really prefer to pay for channels where I could select from much wider material without packaging.  The current business model encourages loads of channels with the same (usually old) dross, or stuff like Netflix with only 1% I'd want to see and don't want to pay to support.  Sports channels require me to pay for soccer I don't want.  Tony has done more for me in a few minutes (neglecting his production time) than Sky Arts bores ever could.  We lack a business model of actual choice.  With one, insanestream news and other entertainment, the crap science pornography of the BBC, Discovery and so on, would be things of my past.  In chronic business terms, I wonder how they do market segmentation at all.  I am sick of Blue Peter (kids programme here) presentation.

One can imagine plenty of people like the best through this group wanting something very different and something large enough not to be a part of when time presses and so on.  Uber, properly supervised against racist drivers, could bring very radical change - I meet few who can explain why - though we have not yet worked out that technology could massively reduce what we currently call work and planet burning.  In the meantime we can't even set up a discussion group without Gabby (and everyone really) worrying on the curtain shades.  Give us a twirl then girl, like one of those doxies Bruce Forsythe used to encourage.  I can see something of a business model, starting with Chris' 'attractors'.  The eventual key is content for a sophisticated audience - remembering very few people do education without any kind of accreditation pay-off and the means to pay for organisation does not move easily from free.  Current strategies are advertising and the begging bowl.

 

[facilitator]

 "My own bad is 'big data' as a new language that would bring a different speed to human discourse and potentially control of the means of production."

When you said wrote this, the following came immediately to my mind.

Well this isn't exactly sequitur but it flows with the whole advertisement corporate mentality and why garbage is acceptable.  Look at it through cynical sunglasses. Intentionally disturbing.

https://vimeo.com/102656753

[allan...@gmail.com]

I understand.   When I started it cost me $1 per minute for 2400 baud $2 for 4800 baud and 9600 baud was not available except in private BBS internet.  I needed for the company  and also made it available  for friends.

The internet has changed.  I personally  don't  like a lot of the changes..  Have stopped heavy use.  Today mostly for email.  Keeping  in touch with family  .. Digging  through marktplaats (not a misspelling) dutch ebay.. Actually  shocking what you can find there.

Download  old books , a couple of games and banking..   My internet  useage  has sharply dropped in reacent years.. This time I am more the exception than the rule.



تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

There are alternatives to things like Netflix (Amazon Prime is clearly just a clone) - like Indieflix, but this just plays cheaper to produce dross - though in principle is interesting.  Discussion groups have the problem there is nothing to idly watch and sort of demand input.  We are so used to watching copies of copied material, there seems little alternative content in us to present, and interestingly little skill in its representation.  I think the net is short of commercial alternatives that aren't lowest common denominator.  

[allan...@gmail.com]

LOL the dress has created modern day zombies..  Mindlessly  surfing the internet because they can not think for themselves.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

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[archytas]

Can you send me a pair of them bootees over Tony?  I don't need the headbutt attachment as I carry a walking stick.  I have a real fear my grandson could watch the link and want a pair.

[archytas]

There are a few gems in the dross.  I start something like Tony's link with the question 'does advertising affect you'.  The answer is almost always no.  Many would not get the vimeo.  The obvious next question is why so much is spent on advertising, followed by one on where all the idiots that are influenced by it are.

Not my sort of big data, but I know what Tony means.

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[archytas]

The question may be how we could collate the non-dross.

[allan...@gmail.com]

I know its crazy ,, reality is companies are paying for page prominence. Personally  I ignore it.   Oddly I had a dislike for YouTube,  but realitively recently it has become of interest.  It is amazing  what people put online.   Actually  some very good explainations.

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[archytas]

The internet could be a means of production and personal control/influence we don't have now.  There are a few developments worth having (a lot behind the scenes in hardware infrastructure development) - yet the big changes are still to come.  More home-based schooling is an example or even a retail-free life for those like me that hate it all and would like to pre-order from manufacturers.  Indeed, we could see it replace international finance and resource allocation. 

[allan...@gmail.com]

I do think education on the internet is up and coming.  Many courses are online I believe many including science are free or low cost..
That is a great improvment cutting  into the cost of university  education..  Having benefits for those other than the extreme  rich. I do  think it can really create benefits for society overall..
My IP address places  me in the Netherlands so I am not targeted by outside companies.. My base language is set for american english which eliminates even more..  (Tatic) but works as most companies are really not international..
Just courious do you have Bol.Com??

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[facilitator]

I see the internet as the new language of barter.  Instead of mink and beaver skins we want information.

[archytas]

No bol here in the UK.  The mink and beaver skins were soon 'mined out' by a few mountain men.  The information stock may be thinner than we think too.  How many cute animals and Asian babes can a man take?  One can imagine publishers and galleries being taken out of the frame - but this seems to bring us back to the garbage issue.

[Allan H]

Change  thought www.bol.com was english.
Nah. Beavers are still out in the wild,  last spring I watched a clip of a beaver surfing the ice flow on the river North of where I as raise..  mink are farmed now so no need to trap them in wild..  how many beaver pelts can you afford Tony? They are still trapped.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?

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[archytas]

In another sense we have our own beaver.  River of them in England now.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Yes I heard that,  I think they are not sure how they arrived back thuis is developing  a company to trap muskrats..   A modern day mountainman. Or is that deltaman.. It is still really  amazing  what you can actually  find on line . The internet dream is still alive buried under the refuse.

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[archytas]

Many of the sophisticated search engines are still hidden from us.  Government security software, algorithms that sniff through newspaper and stock market text looking for phrases associated with past rises and falls.  The internet could provide such as real-time deconstruction of political speeches, newspaper bull and the flight of attention to the trivial.  Barter could be a very serious currency.

[Allan H]

Long forgotten assembler. The language of choice when you want into the guts of the computer data bases. But the problem is in the details.
example. Would making a dump. Modern language go to toilet make a dump. wipe buns leave. Now in assembler you start with the decision to make a dump and include every solitary step in between..  and forget no steps  if you do you have to find the error which is no easy two confidence the reams of paper involved .. not to bad with extreme planning  .. a lot of work. You never use an online computer..
The only language faster is binary.
PS might be through a select group.

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[Molly]

I've always found a questionable lag between discovery and accessibility especially with science and technology. And yet, on the user side, I find it hard to keep up with the change. It would help if there was less that becomes obsolete in the process and more that allowed us to use what we have in different ways. More reuse and recycle, less trashing of old. Of course, this would require us to put better products on the market to begin with, ones that could stand the test of time.

I think the Internet has endless possibility, and dross shows up in direct proportion to the dross of humanity, which in my opinion is considerable. And yet, I "know" all of you and can honestly say that this has improved the quality of my life considerably in ways I cannot define or measure.

20 years ago we did not have the ability to easily, and with a computer, find information on how to repair anything in our homes, and I mean anything. What product specs can't tell us, instructional video and discussion groups can. There are a couple of sincere enough guys who take the time to create little videos on how to repair and remodel MGs and it is actually good info!

For me, I have created through the Internet, a network of writers, publishers and artists from all over the world that I could never have physically created in my local area. It has been a real privilege to watch their work and ideas evolve over time and converse with them in various ways including sharing each others work in our publications.

[Gabby]

Okay. Next round. Twirly-girly at your service or at your command, whatever you prefer.

In a different context I pulled my red pen on the sentence before the one that Facil marked. (Excellent video translation btw, Facil!)

My main point was that you cannot do(???) expert knowledge on a root metaphor with a categorical break at the wrong place - if not to say on the wrong metaphor, because the same car driving training one was used. 

Meaning in speed and business terms, the earlier in the process you identify the error, the cheaper the error eradication process.

I took down a different different keyword from my eternal savior's doings in the delusion thread, but I will take better care this time as to not have it overwritten again this time. It will be one brick of a solid square.

[archytas]

Welcome Twirly - you sound remarkably like someone else.  We'll be playing our cards right soon.  I'm glad you bought a pair of Facil's boots.  Allan seems to have been filling his.  The question probably concerns what expert knowledge is.  There is now a long history of what it wasn't.  Think clerks trying to smash Babbage's counting machine or Luddites on machinery generally.  The shipyards I worked in were full of expert skills not actually needed in building ships.  We have embedded a lot of work skill in technology.  The resistance of the allocation class has been aggressive.

Do??? - there must be some German distinction between knowing that and knowing how - wohl wissend, dass and zu wissen, wie?  Finding the root metaphors is quite difficult.  People are reluctant to show you what they actually do; perhaps beyond your category error and being left trying to model a non-slip process with grease.  We have plenty of examples of TPM (total production maintenance) as you say.  Teachers, lawyers, accountants, managers and politicians all claim expert knowledge.  The expertise may be keeping up the delusion of expertise, rather than rule following and ability to break the rules of actual practice, a bit like a secretive form of a soccer player allowed to carry a machine gun - think big company tax-dodging and stuff like high frequency trading, front-running and other investment tricks since telescopes were used to spot ships on the horizon by commodities traders.

Big issues, of course, concerning who controls the technology.  Currently, ownership is very restricted, to niche markets like Molly's and those behind the smiling pussy internet and government and commercial spying.  Many still have no access.  And we have no challenge to really big news-entertainment corporations - other than Democracy No, Real News and illegal streams of the same old content.

[archytas]

Foucault (1979) put forward some ideas on what would happen as information technology took hold (The Postmodern Condition: a report on knowledge).   Essentially, the  professor would be less a repository of facts as we got free access to these.  Much of this literature would glow bright from Gabby's red pen.  Quite a few have taken Fuller's view on how to get more material into public scrutiny.  These should include the distribution and circulation of knowledge claims. The task of social epistemology of science, according to Fuller, should be regulation of the production of knowledge by regulating the rhetorical, technological, and administrative means of its communication. While there has not been much uptake of Fuller's proposals as articulated, Lee's work begins to make detailed recommendations that take into account the current structures of funding and communication.  Fuller encounter between individual-based social epistemology with its focus on testimony and disagreement as transactions among individuals and the more fully social epistemologies that take social relations or interaction as partially constitutive of empirical knowledge, is the goal.

Whatever this mouthful says, much is not on the internet because existing power interests have prevented it.  A new business model with countervailing structures is not really emerging.  The lack of progress is not surprising, but I suspect most of us don't know how much has been blocked.

Fuller, Steve, 1988. Social Epistemology, Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press.

Lee, Carole J., 2012. “A Kuhnian Critique of Psychometric Research on Peer Review,” Philosophy of Science, 79(5): 859–870.

–––, Cassidy R. Sugimoto, Guo Zhang, and Blaise Cronin, 2013, “Bias in Peer Review,” Journal of the American Society for Information Science and Technology, 64(1): 2–17.

[Molly]

No doubt the current event stuff is conCOCKted and restricted. Net neutrality in the US is presented as not allowing broadband vendors doing what the government already does. Though all that crap, we can still manage to extend our reach and ourselves in ways that raise consciousness (McLuhan)

[archytas]

That's true Molly.  I'm only Oliver asking for more.

[allan...@gmail.com]

And I be the artful dodger..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[Molly]

http://youtu.be/sZrgxHvNNUc

[gabbydott]

I prefer the social romantic quote from Facil to this quote here. New times demand new imagery to hurt and to ridicule.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Right….

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

I was thinking more of a shift from hurt and pain from authority claiming expertise and some radically different ways to live.  Surfacing the deep iconography which humans invent manners to avoid is obviously hurtful.   

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[gabbydott]

Yes, I understood your title question. I have decided to not argue along the your-question-is-wrong line but to take it a step further, to take better care of my energy balance and to see where I am a social romantic myself. I find it relatively easy yo laugh at myself, maybe a side effect of my Gemini nature. But I don't want to bore you with my trivia. 

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[archytas]

Utopia is a book that, like More (who preached religious tolerance and persecuted Protestants), attempted to navigate a course through the ideal and the real, between a desire to create perfection and the pragmatic understanding that perfection, given the fallibility of mankind, is impossible. Your social romantic might be interesting.  I must have spotted your sense of humour to invite you down the rabbit hole.  There remains the question we might just be ostrich and sticking our heads into the ground to evade an already unromantic world.  Gemini is a long way away.  We must be flouting relativity, but then, what are rules?

[archytas]

One of the fantasies of academics who want a free internet is that this will somehow remove bias.  This rather like the fantasy that markets are free and unregulated (like in the unregulated times of the robber barons on the Rhine?).  Astrology is based on fictions, yet what of such as personality psychology in search of the ungroundable personality, or any of the 'bag of words' my lot use that rely on words?  I'm Taurus and might get on with half of you.  Solomon's sword comes to mind!  

[allan...@gmail.com]

Life is a form of fiction.  People want a lot of things and are not willing  to pay for them.
As for astrology,  I don't  know and still don't. Years ago I became curious and sat down and actually  drew up my own astrology chart. Took a couple of weeks but  I  actually  created my own time..  I took a guess at my birth time  and was off by 4 + hrs. Then proceeded to work my way through the two books I had writing everything out. After all of the work by hand and writing I sat down and read what I wrote.
Truth is what I read on my birthchart scared the hell out of me. What it came down to is I  like taking life one day at a time. Life is hard enough without thinking I know  the future. There are programs out there that will do the hard work for you.
If I want to contemplate the future I will consult the I Ching.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?

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[archytas]

More;s Utopia is pretty grim.  No astrology for Gabby and no tavern for me - indeed privacy was no concern at all - rather activity was supposed to be under public scrutiny.  Atheists were tolerated, but had to take instruction from priests.  We would have to get Facil to build a full size raft to commemorate our arrival on the place, close to somewhere to launch it.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Utopia,,   strange thought..  The future is not bright.. But there is hope in small communities.. Verses standing valiantly alone against the odds..
 Ocean community  barges are looking good..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 9:18 PM
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[gabbydott]

I'd be lost would I have to rely on astrology or astronomy for my orientation. Which is why I have the deepest respect for the generations and generations and generations of men and women and the time they took to do all their observations, their remembering, and their drawing lines and conclusions to bring us to where we are. Standing on the shoulders of giants. Pathetic yes.

The Atopia is a cafe here in Berlin with free wlan access, but it's not really suitable get somewhere. 

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[gabbydott]

You have water house communities in holland. 

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[archytas]

Dung beetles can't do astrology, but can navigate by polarised light from the sun we can't see and by the Milky Way at night.  They dance too.  Atopia is an odd name for a cafe you can't get anywhere from, given the no borders aspect.  Pathetic no, history would be a lot of use if we had a real one people could understand in their own terms.  Two women rolled into one?  Sounds temptingly right Gabby.  I did the dogged detective bit once (Taurus), but now seem disparate and unfocused.  Not really interested in the birth sign connections, but anything that gets  people talking is worth looking at.

We could restructure our living space into villages and have a net collectivity.  Utopia, on its etymology, should not exist anywhere, as in the recent television series that should never have been made. 'Standing on the shoulders of giants' was, maybe, just sarcasm by Newton against Hooke, who was small.

So you scoped your horror then Allan?  I just look in the mirror.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Yes,  the idea is for flood  protection more than anything.  But the same idea would work..  You have to be extremely  careful  of the environment.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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From: gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: "mind...@googlegroups.com" <mind...@googlegroups.com>

[allan...@gmail.com]

Mirrors work too. Am afraid there would be no reflection . (not a vampire thing) With no reflection ik  change my understanding of reality.  But again does a soul have a reflection in this reality except that of the body\bottle that the soul is contained within. Perception,  nothing but perception. Then the question becomes which  perception is real?
I would  not want to base a life on astrology though. You would lose far more than gain. 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
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To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?

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[gabbydott]

That's one perspective. Another perspective sees dams and water drainage systems as protection against nature's constant attempt to get back what man has stolen. Or so. ;)

[archytas]

We might do better to sue the corporations who build poisonous water systems and dams that change water tables so land gets salted and only fit for poppy production,

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[facilitator]

Side note, originally all of the salt in the oceans came from the land.

[archytas]

So less salt with our internet aspirations then?

[allan...@gmail.com]

We need to take tony with a grain of salt that is why there are whole oceams full of it.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

What a strange world it would be if we had to take him with egg and chips.

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[andrew vecsey]

I have been thinking about your post Niel.
The internet connects people via their computers. That is very empowering. especially to the owners of centralized computers that offer porn, entertainment,  commerce and information. It is however the decentralized form of the internet that is truly empowering, enabling people globally to freely communicate and share information without the control of centralized powers.  The blockchain technology is the most empowering. It frees people to make money transactions without banks, legal transactions without lawyers, and allows people to vote and voice their opinions without politicians.    

[Allan H]

Blockchain technology is very empowering for those inert breaking te law and criminal activities. Andre on her the fixation for bitcoin..who it came out I as interested, thought it could be a kick.. turns out because my custom silver business was little I as ignored not being on he preferred golden calf list..
The price was less than $1.oo per coin. I think it as around 1/2 that price. I was prepared to put up 100€ to establish a wallet and be able to really sell my art work.. would have been fun..100€ is not a lot of money but it was what I could honestly afford to lose on a failed idea..that amount would have provided me with in excess of 200 bit coins for my wallet.  Would have been fun. I was willing to accept birding today work without a water converting it back to Euro.. strange thing happened I was not allowed to have a wallet..
The current rate of exchange is 206€. When you started beating the bitcoin drum it was close or above 1000€ per bitcoin..  which brings up a real interesting questions just how much have you lost and why are you still beating the block chain tech drum?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

I broadly agree Andrew.  People don't understand the blockchain.  There already is criminal money in the current system.  Bitcoin volatility is a problem and all such systems down to Uber taxis have regulation problems.  Yet the potential is demonstrated.

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[gabbydott]

I am interested in empowerment tools. What is the blockchain technology, Andrew? First what it is and then what is does, okay? Thanks.

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[andrew vecsey]

You can get a better explanation of the blockchain from the internet than I can give you. But as I like to simplify complicated things, I will give it a try. The blockchain is a public ledger that is kept by volunteers. The volunteers document transactions made by users.The ledger is verifyied by consensus of the volunteers. The the only way that ledger can be falsified is that 51% of the volunteers that maintain the ledger all have to agree to a falsified version of the ledger. The users broadcast a transaction they want to include in that ledger, and the volunteers transcribe that transactions in that ledger.  There is no centralized point of control, as the ledger is distributed by the volunteers.  The transactions can be Bitcoins, a cryptocurrency that apparently can not be falsified due to the encryption it uses, or any other transactions, like ownership of assets, or contracts. The blockchain is refereed to as a "trust-less system" in that you do not have to trust a centralized authority to maintain that ledger, as there are none. The protocol that is used for the blockchain is an open source program that prevents anyone compromising that protocol without everyone else knowing about any changes that might compromise it. The entire system is of course very complicated. The main aspects that allow such a system to be implemented is the mathematics of cryptology, the internet, the distributed network of computers, and geeks that maintain that network not because they want to hack or control it, but because they want to keep it honest. I hope that helps.

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[archytas]

In minimal definition the blockchain is very dull - a set of chained blocks forming a record.  At other basic levels it seeks fairness through technical means - https://fc14.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/bitcoin14_submission_10.pdf (the link is safe - you have to do 'advanced' and 'go ahead anyway).

In principle, we could remove many mirrors of authority and 'costs' though the blockchain, replacing the current allocation class.

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[Allan H]

Dream on Andrew, sorry and I already your are going to say I am full of shit,,  by it is okay..  all own source is good for is ease in hacking.. I will watch people do the delusional twisters.
A few people will always maintain machine language you are lucky because they are not interested in delusional dead.. beware through he people who will employ them are rue control freaks. The safety net is within numbers and time, the segmentation ability is where the secret lies..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

It isn't that bleak Allan.  Andrew has the basic description right.  People generally refuse to see the bigger picture these developments are exposing.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

If you worship money.... 
My memory is saying it is not worth anything for data storage and reterival and that is what computers are about.. In 1977 I walked away from programming..
Can be fun if and that is a big if..
Do you like long hours and extreme focus and the edge of sanity.   The research projects were interesting..

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[gabbydott]

Thank you, Andrew, yes that helped. You helped. The internet does not help, it offers help sites maybe. Anyways, the Bitcoint FAQ site only explained me it was a public ledger. Hahaha. So? And then there was you and you took the time to explain it to me .. my special thanks to you.

Also thanks to Neil's link I have got a rough idea now what you are talking about. What is not quite clear to me yet - and I have the same problem in colour discussions when I don't know whether they speak of additive mixing or subtractive mixing - when 51% agree to a falsified version as you say, is it not that the falsified version is thereby verified and not falsified? Things get so easily twisted, not even on purpose, what does honesty mean in this context?

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[gabbydott]

Yes, thank you too. Empowerment through lottery gambling, ah well. Calculations on when to abort the process would not lead to a financial loss. All very logical. I have an idea of who the winners of these deals are.

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[gabbydott]

Use your segmentation ability and go to you Zombie thread if you have to leave your shit out, Allan! And stop barking at Andrew!

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[gabbydott]

Yep, just because Allan needs the "allocation class" (ModGods sounds less stylish) doesn't mean we all need Mr Right.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

I am not barking at andrew..

[gabbydott]

Let's make this a third person case and say people need money. They need money pay their bills. Please don't be so hard on them, dear Allan.

[allan...@gmail.com]

We'll, if that is how you want to pay your bills..  Have fun,  l recall when Andrew became excited about bitcoin the said value was in the 1000 € = 1 bitcoin..  Just looked up the value it is 211 € ..  Let me help you pay your bills you give me 1000 euro and in a few days I will give you 211 € back..   Good deal right?  When I first looked into bitcoin (when it first came out)  you could buy 2 for less than a Euro..
My question really is how many euro did Andrew lose..  They would not let me create a small wallet so I cold sell my jewelry..
Now I was not allowed  to create a wallet,  found out later it was due to questionable activities.   But if you like looking at short term..   Have fun. And I am called a zombie..  lol

[archytas]

You did kind of bark allan.  Max is getting into the habit with passers-by too.  The Bitcoin sage could help us understand the allocation class.  People understand money  in the sense Gabby states.   Few can explain what it actually is beyond vouchers to pay off what they need to live.  With all the years of education we get, most think government issues money, but in fact nearly all of it is issued as debt by private banks.  This is all to do with claims this is the best way to allocate the stuff.  Bitcoin at least demonstrates currency could work without the banks.  The rest is complex - what expert services do we really need?  What does the existing finance system actually do?  What is its relation to the work we actually need to get done?  One idea here is theat it is a giant Ponzi scheme.

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[archytas]

In that sense Allan, iy was just another bubble.  This is not why it is interesting.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

well  can not imagine why it is  interesting.
If it is security  you want stay off the net and even then they still have you..  To much info readily  available. But you know that..
Onions  have great security ..  So what makes it interesting?

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[archytas]

There have been many other alternative currencies, including drugs and spices.  The interesting thing is not Bitcoin itself (or the 80+ other versions), but the challenge to claims of bank expertise and various 'rents' in the economic system, oincluding those imposed by 'professionals'

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Are these alternative  currency really  a challenge  to the banksters?  If you want to really challenge banksters expertise  use it to your advantage by using the onion effect a system  within  a system..  The onion has been used for generations  under various names..
If you are forced to swim across a flooded  you do not survive by swimming  against the current.

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[archytas]

I think the actual expertise is phony.  They have built up a big control fraud around very little.  In the past we have been dominated by such as water-engineers with basic skills hidden by their 'access' to the water-gods.  The financiers are similar.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

You have that right. Banksters is slight of hand. Or is that slight of money?
The actual banking system of debit and credit was developed  by a monk  in the middle ages. That was how accounting was taught years ago..  Today accounting is taught as three card montie..  Shuffle cloud the issue claiming clarity of sight.
Banksters do not want clarity as it does not serve their greed and control.
If you want to change the system  change it from within..  You have to create the illusion for banksters that they are in control..   Bitcoin is an outside force giving banksters an point of attack..
If you want change the current banking system make the banksters attack  themselves by creating a banking system within their system..  Why not control how you you use the system.   You have to remember  that the rudder controls and turns the ship.
My question is why not be the rubber in yourbanking affairs.

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[archytas]

that gets some of the way - though banking goes back 5000 years

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[allan...@gmail.com]

No though banking goes back thousands of years,,  the double entry system was developed  by monk in the middle ages..  Good old debit and credit..   From there the modern  slight of hand.

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[gabbydott]

Barky-barky Allan tells our red-penned Neil that he has it right. Very cute. Gain robber control  to change the system from within, wow, what a fresh idea! Still a way to go to machine transaction time, though. Sigh.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Tread softly Gabby, you can expect to be treated as you have treated others.. Sorry to disappoint  you Gabby the debut/crediet system created in the someone used in the machine accounting you see today.. They just have given names to the slight of hand tricks..

Banking is a unique finacial environment. Normally  it would  be a boring uninteresting  subject the then a name as a joke created interest.  Found out that creating a legal  bank is much easier than  I ever imagined..   Just lacked the major bank connection need to do interbank banking..   Didn't  realize  at the time I had those needed connections also..
Talking with a childhood friend Vern asked me why I didn't sign the required paperwork..   I am still surprised by friends I made while being a yatch bum.. (",)

[gabbydott]

If things are that simple I really understand how and why you down on on people who worship the golden calf - instead of the bull. ;)

[gabbydott]

Look down ... sorry, too fast

[archytas]

The earliest forms of banking I'm aware of go back to the debt/tally systems of the Sumerians.  There are also complex blood debt systems based on the future rent of women.  The scams and power assumptions remain central to the money system we have.  Wider public scrutiny via the internet could produce a new system linked to building what we need.

[archytas]

So how complex might things be Gabby?  You don't vote for the groaf-jawbs-burn-the-planet-some-more "visionaries" - so what do you know?

[allan...@gmail.com]

lol. It is that simple..  I was deeply involved in debit credit  ongoing discussion when our teach a very nice swedish lady told us not to discuss to understand just do the exercises..  I made the comment  under my breath that accounting  was a mindless  operation..  Our teacher heard me and replied. "You have that right. "
Don't  get into the discussions  of why and how..   Just do the paperwork  the system  just works..

[allan...@gmail.com]

Back off Gabby Neil,  she is really  trying to understand.
It figures you like single column accounting..  It is easier to manipulate  and rig verses double column where you have to account the vikings and going of funds..

I know you want a slave girl..

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[gabbydott]

Lol, you fell for the oldest trick? Tell a man he is right and he shuts up!?

[gabbydott]

Ahem, no sorry Allan, I don't think that Neil wants a slave girl. He is a perfect gentleman. A bit too depressed, but otherwise the normal degree of arrogance.

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[archytas]

Why thank you Ma'am.  Indeed, in the Lele blood debt system one doesn't just want just the slave girl, but also to exert rights over generations of female children to be sold off on the promise of their creation in the future.  Sounds a bit like student debt and the weird way banks make money on loans that don't get repaid and inheritance.  After your words I checked to see if we had a high pedestal, so I could sit on it and fall off.  We don't have one.

[gabbydott]

I know of the importance of checking for distractors.
To come back to your question, in your terms I don't know enough.

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[archytas]

Neither do I Gabby.  There is no real distraction in the warnings, I guess about the dangers of a transparent society, especially as one of the models is a prison (the panoptican).  We have politicians and economic pundits talking about austerity with no mention of people going hungry.  Language bewitches and we talk more language.  We look to inner self-development, yet what we can see externally is hardly any mirror of this.  The big data people feel they are on to some way to demonstrate human nature in the external - something of the old behaviourist line - but with more 'black box consciousness' content.

Technology could be doing a great deal for us, reducing work and introducing very different motivations than fear of and actual poverty.  It isn't.

[archytas]

What has struck me for a long time is that education barely equips us for meaningful dialogue on what is happening to us.  This rather implies the need to express our state of ignorance.  We get some idea on the general state of ignorance through regular tales that Americans don't know where Iraq is - though most of us are as bad.  We don't know how money is created or how wealth as currently owned is a millstone round our necks, or to work out ideological components of our thinking.  We drift easily to little interest in much beyond keeping the wolf from our own door.  Debate starts in such a manner that little is actually evaluated in it and huge swathes in it say nothing meaningful in the text delivered.  The internet as we have it suggests no one is really interested.  Is the current internet what we were educated for?  Is it a mirror of consciousness?

[allan...@gmail.com]

Don't underestimate the education of americans.

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[facilitator]

"The predominant religion in the world today is ignorance". (™)

[archytas]

The problem is we don't know what we have been educated into or why we either never learn or forget so much.  We are often ashamed by our lack of education, but how does ignorance reign so easily?  are we educated to it?  The ignorance thing is not part of American exceptionalism Allan.  If we tested more widely we'd discover how much all of us have not learned.

[allan...@gmail.com]

True

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Semi true..well mostly true

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?

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[facilitator]

I see the problem as children are not taught how to question.  The child that raises the hand is often laughed at and the term "Stupid Question" comes from early education years.  Critical thinking is non existent and replaced with regurgitation of facts.  

[RP Singh]

If we only regurgitate I don't see how we have progressed so far. You say that critical thinking is non-existent , what about innumerable theses written to make critical examinations of old masters?

Proving previous knowledge as redundant and accepting new viewpoints is the result of critical thinking.

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 10:08 AM, 'facilitator' via "Minds Eye" <mind...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I see the problem as children are not taught how to question.  The child that raises the hand is often laughed at and the term "Stupid Question" comes from early education years.  Critical thinking is non existent and replaced with regurgitation of facts.  

[gabbydott]

The knowledge mainstreaming effect is not necessarily only to be seen as a progress, RP.
You see when children have their dreadful "why" phase, I am convinced it is great fun for them to hear all the different tales and it would be loss to reduce the creative input. What could they later come up with?

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[RP Singh]

Children start using their creative and critical abilities at some point of time , and Gabby , I think that is the correct thing. I was only refuting Facil's observation that critical thinking is non-existent. 

[allan...@gmail.com]

Many schools depend upon regurgitated answers. I was fortunate as many of my classmates were Professors brats we were used for research subjects. They emphised critical thinking. The other kids had standard testing.. At least they knew what to study for and the questions.

A critical thinking education is extremely labor intensive.. We were fortunate a lot of labor was supplied via student teachers learning how to create a learning situation. The side arrest is all of us learned a great deal about educational methods.. None of us ever became teachers.
If your school teaches creative thinking. In the US. Standardized education has become the norm.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?

[archytas]

One possibility is there isn't much to be creative about.  Some societies remained in the Stone Age without much education other than ostensive training in such as hacking out canoes from trees.  The vast majority of entertainment and the internet is consumed with the naff, suggesting any lives it reflects and is aimed at seek distraction rather than engagement.  Gabby's why phase occurs in communities that remain stone age too.  Schools are very convenient repositories for kids - perhaps really a form of modern wet-nursing.  They run on fear.  You more or less have to send your kids to school and generally about 7% are sent to private institutions or venues created by house prices and such to ensure an elite route.

Creativity seems to fail us in thinking of something better.  We don't even remember much of the experience ourselves, or be able to assess what of schooling we use in work and activities we might enjoy.  There is creative work going on but we don't seem interested in it as a public.  We can't even build homes for people to live in without exasperation through economics.  Could education actually be part of depriving us of individuality and collectivism at the same time? 

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[gabbydott]

Yes, education could actually be part of depriving us of individuality and collectivism at the same time. So? Why are you asking? What is the purpose of your question?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Question's purpose. In this case I think  it is not to find an answer but rather to stimulate  thinking and thought.
I think a lot of the internet is dedicated to the stone age idea of filling  time with mindless and useless occupation with illusions of reward. An extension of the educational system.  There are many programs devoted to the florida of war and killing.  Mindless conditioning of the masses . . . . . . ah hidden conditioning of the soul.. Creation of a zombie state..

Sorry couldn't  resist.. (Kidding the cackle laughter…

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Oops  hiding

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[gabbydott]

Yep, you definitely fall in the hopeless-case category, Allan. Here is your official confirmation!