the dot in asides

[Jessica Sklar]

Is there a way of removing that? I love how they're formatted as knowls, but not loving the dot.

[Rob Beezer]

I can't tell what you are talking about. "dot"?

Can you explain?

On 07/31/2017 07:01 PM, Jessica Sklar wrote:
> Is there a way of removing that? I love how they're formatted as knowls, but not
> loving the dot.
>

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[David Farmer]

Asides are going to change soon. In particular,
when the browser is wide, asides will appear in the
right margin.

Probably the appearance (the blue box) will change, too.

If anyone is using asides as a way to make a paragraph appear
in a blue box, then as soon as possible you should change
the markup to something else. Asides should only be used
for non-critical material, as suggested by the term "aside".

As to changing the styling in other ways: that will have to
wait until other "theses" become available.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017, Jessica Sklar wrote:

> Is there a way of removing that? I love how they're formatted as knowls, but not loving the dot.
>

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[Jessica Sklar]

Sorry, I should have sent an example.  Here is an example.

https://community.plu.edu/~sklarjk/ptx/ptx/section-1.html

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 8:08:13 PM UTC-7, Robert Beezer wrote:

I can't tell what you are talking about.  "dot"?

Can you explain?

On 07/31/2017 07:01 PM, Jessica Sklar wrote:
> Is there a way of removing that? I love how they're formatted as knowls, but not
> loving the dot.
>
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[Jessica Sklar]

I intend them as asides.  E.g., historical notes.  

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[Rob Beezer]

It seems we have "historical" and "biographical" implemented, which are in the
category "aside-like", but failed to make it into the schema.

Give it a try - it should just behave like an "aside" (and make an issue to have
"aside-like" be reflected in the schema?).

Rob

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[Rob Beezer]

On 07/31/2017 11:16 PM, Jessica Sklar wrote:
> Sorry, I should have sent an example. Here is an example.
>
> https://community.plu.edu/~sklarjk/ptx/ptx/section-1.html

<audible-chuckle />

It is a thing we call a "period", attempting to end a title that is not there (I
think!). ;-)

David will get it squared away. Thanks for the report.

Rob

[Jessica Sklar]

I just figured that out!  I guess it isn't an malfunction if titles are required, but I sort of don't feel like an historical aside should require a title. :/  

Rob

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Dr. Jessica Sklar

Chair of Mathematics

Pacific Lutheran University

[David Farmer]

At the moment asides require a title (whether or not the
schema says so). We can discuss whether it should be that way.

If it is a historical or biographical note, then it should
be marked up as such.

Important note: when discussing questions of appearance, it is
important to give a link to an actual real example. It is not
like debugging code, where it can be helpful to have a
"minimal" example.

The discussion about whether asides need titles cannot reach
a reasonable decision without several real examples to look at.
And possibly several examples of each type of aside.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017, Jessica Sklar wrote:

> I just figured that out!  I guess it isn't an malfunction if titles are required, but I sort of don't feel
> like an historical aside should require a title. :/  
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 11:26 PM, Rob Beezer <bee...@ups.edu> wrote:
> On 07/31/2017 11:16 PM, Jessica Sklar wrote:
> Sorry, I should have sent an example.  Here is an example.
>
> https://community.plu.edu/~sklarjk/ptx/ptx/section-1.html
>
>
> <audible-chuckle />
>
> It is a thing we call a "period", attempting to end a title that is not there (I think!). ;-)
>
> David will get it squared away.  Thanks for the report.
>
> Rob
>
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> Dr. Jessica Sklar
> Chair of Mathematics
> Pacific Lutheran University
>

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[Alex Jordan]

People are misusing aside based on how they like its appearance,
so it's good to be aware of that and it's good that David is working on the HTML side.
The PDF side will need attention too.
But many title-less asides in people's PTX documents should not really be asides.

In my experience running into this in ORCCA, APEX, and Active Calculus,
an aside for which it is hard to have a title is so small
that it's better just as a parenthetical in the main text body.
But the above issue is more usually the issue.
It's title-less because it was really just some portion of text that the author wanted to highlight.

(Trying out David's carriage return scheme.)

[Rob Beezer]

On 08/01/2017 06:53 AM, David Farmer wrote:
> At the moment asides require a title (whether or not the
> schema says so). We can discuss whether it should be that way.

Required or not, via schema or CSS, a title gives automatic, consistent,
identification for a cross-reference, since I think the nature of an aside is
that it not be numbered. (A numbered aside is likely a "remark" or "note".)

I would put a person's name as the title of a "biographical". Certainly there
is more that could be added to the structure there (born, died, etc).

[Jessica Sklar]

I guess my feeling is that a true aside doesn't need a title, number, or cross- reference. That's the whole point of it being an "aside," and not a biographical note, remark, etc. 

Here is an example. I might want to have an aside like this :

<aside>The notation <m>\Z</m>  comes from <q>zahlen, <\q>, the German word for <q>numbers.<\q><\aside>

I don't think that needs a title, number, or cross - reference (all of which asides currently have). I could include it parenthetically, and probably will, since there's no titleless, numberless environment of the type I want, but I would like there to be such a thing. 

For what it's worth, so far 99% of my asides have been put in a different format. The caution against using too many asides, in general, is well taken. 

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[Jessica Sklar]

"It's title-less because it was really just some portion of text that the author wanted to highlight." 

Yes, and /or separate from the main text so that it doesn't interfere with the flow of the paragraph. 

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[Rob Beezer]

Code says "aside" never has a number. Please send an example if you are seeing one.

"title" is almost always optional. Except for divisions (chapters, etc), and
the thing being described in a description list ("dl") and maybe some other places.

On 08/01/2017 10:06 AM, Jessica Sklar wrote:
> I guess my feeling is that a true aside doesn't need a title, number, or cross-
> reference. That's the whole point of it being an "aside," and not a biographical
> note, remark, etc.
>
> Here is an example. I might want to have an aside like this :
>
> <aside>The notation <m>\Z</m> comes from <q>zahlen, <\q>, the German word for
> <q>numbers.<\q><\aside>
>
> I don't think that needs a title, number, or cross - reference (all of which
> asides currently have). I could include it parenthetically, and probably will,
> since there's no titleless, numberless environment of the type I want, but I
> would like there to be such a thing.
>
> For what it's worth, so far 99% of my asides have been put in a different
> format. The caution against using too many asides, in general, is well taken.
>

> On Aug 1, 2017 9:14 AM, "Rob Beezer" <bee...@ups.edu <mailto:bee...@ups.edu>> wrote:
>
> On 08/01/2017 06:53 AM, David Farmer wrote:
>
> At the moment asides require a title (whether or not the
> schema says so). We can discuss whether it should be that way.
>
>
> Required or not, via schema or CSS, a title gives automatic, consistent,
> identification for a cross-reference, since I think the nature of an aside
> is that it not be numbered. (A numbered aside is likely a "remark" or "note".)
>
> I would put a person's name as the title of a "biographical". Certainly
> there is more that could be added to the structure there (born, died, etc).
>
>
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[Keller, Mitch]

On 08/01/2017 10:06 AM, Jessica Sklar wrote:

I guess my feeling is that a true aside doesn't need a title, number, or cross-
reference. That's the whole point of it being an "aside," and not a biographical
note, remark, etc.

I can definitely see a case where a well-indexed book would have an index entry in an aside, which would then require referencing in the index (page number in LaTeX, knowl for the aside in HTML).

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Assistant Professor of Mathematics

Washington & Lee University, Lexington VA

206 Robinson Hall ~ 540.458.8099 ~ http://www.rellek.net

[Jessica Sklar]

My bad, the aside wasn't numbered.

However, if the <title> isn't included in an aside, you get a period showing after the phantom title.  Was this what you were asking David to fix?  If so, thanks!

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[David Farmer]

David is not going to "fix" the phantom period,
because we are far from having a clear understanding
of what asides are for.

Actual examples, from actual books, need to be the
basis of these decisions.

What I expect to happen (based on similar discussions
over the years) is that we will come to recognize that
some things that currently are asides should not be
asides, and some other asides are an aside with some
additional structure (such as: it is a biographical
note). And some asides should just be asides.

I suggest suspending this discussion. If you have actual
examples of asides in your book, let's gather those
examples on this issue:

https://github.com/rbeezer/mathbook/issues/653

Regards,

David

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