Extruder, odd clicking/buzzing noise after extruder upgrade

[Jonathan Galloway]

OK, so I got the additional parts (barring, spring) from Makerbot, then printed and installed this extruder upgrade:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:53125

Now, when printing, there is this weird buzzing/clicking that sounds like it is coming from the extruder.  I THINK it is the filament against the motor and bearing, maybe stripping or something?

It doesn't seem to do this when I load/unload filament.  Just during print.  It doesn't seem to be hurting anything, it's printing fine especially at low and medium.  Still trying to get good gap-less high res prints.

Should I be concerned?

Also - just want to point out that where the two bolts connect the fan guard, the fan and the extruder block ... is crap.  Without realizing it, I nearly damaged the corners of the fan when screwing the bolts back in.  they can easily 'dip in' to the recessed areas of the fan corners, and the pressure of screwing in the bolts (to tightly) can warp or tear then fan plastic.  I think I may put some washers here, just to make sure it has a good broad and flat surface for the fan guard to actually sit against.

So, how tight do these screws need to actually be?

[Jonathan Galloway]

Hmm, I just started a print with a raft.  I made sure to do a good leveling before (thinking maybe the nozzle is too close to the plate.)

So the raft layer printed without any noise.  Then the noise started building, and now during the print it is intermittent (but generally builds)

Is it building up pressure causing the filament to strip against the drive?  How can I fix that!?

[Eighty]

Here's what I read from your questions:

 

You're getting click on the first layer when you don't use a raft.

When you use a raft, you get clicking as soon as the "real" model starts.

No clicking during a load filament routine.

 

You didn't get clicking before the upgrade, but got a lot of gaps.

 

All of this tells me that you're extruding too much plastic.  Here's why:

 

Rafts and supports are generally easy to print.  If you're extruding too much, the plastic can simply squish sideways and not hurt anything.  But solid infill (or printing solid layers on the plate) give the plastic nowhere to go.

 

Clicking generally means you're getting a good bite on the filament, but the stepper can't overcome the forces involved to turn the pinch wheel.  Generally, back pressure causes this (or excessive tension as it pulls the filament in).  Your load/unload routines are fine, so it sounds like back pressure.

 

I'll assume you're using Makerware.  Edit your profile, and change the Feedstock Multiplier from 0.773 to 0.97.  That will get you more in the ballpart of the proper extrusion volume.  I don't know why, but the default MW profile gives you somewhere on the order of 20% too much plastic.

 

So give this a shot and let us know if it helps.  There are many other calibration/tweaking steps that can be taken, but we need to do them one at a time (so you can see what changes).

[David Celento]

The sound might also be related to the lower cooling fan (on the side)?  The spindle mechanism is crap. When you hear the sound, try putting your finger gently on the left (lower) fan (near the center) to see if the drag changes the pitch you hear. If so, there's your culprit. :-)

[TobyCWoods]

Measure your filament. It can't be thicker then 1.85mm or it won't go through the tube inside the extruder. 

[Jonathan Galloway]

Wow, that seemed to have made a big difference.  No gaps and the buzzing/clicking noise didn't happen.

Worked so well, the highest res print I have made yet, stuck to the build plate so well that that I couldn't remove it. LOL.

[David Celento]

Congrats! Was it the feedstock multiplier?

[Jonathan Galloway]

yeah, just that one setting seemed to fix it.

[Nolightforyou]

Dear Eighty:

I saw your post about this after-upgrade clicking.  I'm having that issue too.  Where do you go to "Edit your profile, and change the Feedstock Multiplier from 0.773 to 0.97" on Makerware?  I can't seem to find that setting?  Or is it in the onboard prefs that I can't see right now... in the middle of printing a large item.

Thank you!

[Eighty]

At the bottom of the Make It window, you need to create a new profile (duplicate an existing one as the start point). Then Edit that profile.
Here's the MBI documentation on how to do it.
http://www.makerbot.com/support/makerware/documentation/advanced/

And documentation on the actual profile settings.
http://www.makerbot.com/support/makerware/documentation/slicer/

[Anne McMills]

thank you!  I'll give it a try!

Does all that clicking/filament build-up damage the machine?  (I'm hoping to not have to stop by current print, but I don't want to damage anything.)

Thanks,

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[Eighty]

Its not going to break your bot. Clicking isn't ideal, but don't worry about the stepper.

[Anne McMills]

thanks!!

On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Eighty <adun...@gmail.com> wrote:

Its not going to break your bot. Clicking isn't ideal, but don't worry about the stepper.

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[Anne McMills]

Dear Eighty:

Thanks for the info you provided.  I was able to change the feedstock multiplier, but then it seemed like the temperature could not be changed.  (I've been running my Bot at 220 instead of 230.)  Is there somewhere that's able to be changed?

....seems like MBI should just change this feedstock multiplier default in their next update!....  :)

[Eighty]

You have to edit the gcode for that. Not sure why its not available in the profile editor. Stupid, if you ask me.
I don't know if the stock firmware allows you to override the extruder temp, but Sailfish does. Yet another reason to get away from MBI firmware.

[Arik Czerniak]

hey eighty, i have this same issue with replicatorG
im runing at 1.75 filament size (thats the size) using wingcommanders profiles.
would i need to change a similar setting?

[Eighty]

If you're using the Wingcommander profiles, then the "similar setting" should already be correct.  That setting is called "Filament Packing Density (ratio)" in the Dimension Plugin.  It should be roughly 0.97-1.0 for PLA, and 0.85 for ABS.

 

If this is already correct, and you're still having problems, then there's another (different) issue.  It's kinda hard to diagnose without more information.

[Arik Czerniak]

Its never happened before

30 mins into the build starts clicking and extrudes wisps.

When i do an unload and then load it stops clicking.

I tried to clean the nozzle a bit, not thouroghly but its pretty clean. After extruder upgrde, printed about 50 hours after the upgrade.

I can only conclude its a blocked nozzle? What do u think?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 10:44 PM, Eighty <adun...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you're using the Wingcommander profiles, then the "similar setting" should already be correct.  That setting is called "Filament Packing Density (ratio)" in the Dimension Plugin.  It should be roughly 0.97-1.0 for PLA, and 0.85 for ABS.

 

If this is already correct, and you're still having problems, then there's another (different) issue.  It's kinda hard to diagnose without more information.

--

[Eighty]

Not likely to be a clogged nozzle if it loads filament just fine.

 

Have you tried a different color filament to see if the same issue occurs?  Also, try cycling the power on your bot.  Are you getting any temperature errors on the LCD? 

[Arik Czerniak]

Ill try a diff filament. What does cycling the power mean? Turn it off and on?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 11:29 PM, Eighty <adun...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not likely to be a clogged nozzle if it loads filament just fine.

 

Have you tried a different color filament to see if the same issue occurs?  Also, try cycling the power on your bot.  Are you getting any temperature errors on the LCD? 

--

[Eighty]

Yes. May help clear out any errors.

[TobyCWoods]

...and you measured the filament diameter... right? 

Everytime... 100% of the time.. when that has happened to me the filament diameter went over spec and it would not fit into the tube to the nozzle. Sometimes when it just starts to get to thick you can get a squeeky sound form the friction in the tube... but even with that warning the print will be ruined,

[Arik Czerniak]

It happens with different filaments

When i pause and load/unload it extrudes normal again..

Its either

1 prob with extruder upgrade

2 blocked nozzle

3. Moisture in fiament?

Something else

Ill try to clean the nizzle

[Joseph Chiu]

One possibility that you should check is whether your spring is too strong, causing problems the drive gear and idler bearings to not move smoothly.  If you relieve some of the spring force with your fingers, does the problem go away?  If so, try a weaker spring.

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[Arik Czerniak]

It worked fine for 50 hours u think it got warped? Maybe i should do the aluminium extruder and thats it?

[TobyCWoods]

Changing filament spools still does not verify that you used calipers and measured your filament diameter. If you bought all from the same supplier and sometimes even different suppliers... spools can and do have spots in a 2 lb spool which can go over 1.9mm in diameter. A little bit of a squeeze and it bulges at the tube opening widening the diameter even further. 

So... when it stops... have you removed the filament and measured it right at the end????

If you had a clog the stream would not come out straight down... it would go off to the side a touch or even a lot. If you had blockage in the tube you would not be able to extrude at all.

[Arik Czerniak]

Its the same filament ive printed with before.. 

After about 1 hour (im printing lithophanes) it starts to airprint - when i  pause it and do a load, it loads.

Plus, the extruder stepper is getting warm. 

My suspicion is that the nozzle is clogged, and after a while the stepper cant push against it..

I clean the nozzle but it still happens

Any help would be appreciated

[David Celento]

This seems like a heat related issue. Out of curiosity, are you printing at a layer resolution that is less than 0.20 mm?  Was the drive head "clicking" when it air printed?

I suspect "yes" to the first question, and "no" to the second question.  If that's the case, you're likely experiencing stripping of the filament due to heat soak.

Regardless, to solve this issue, you need to narrow down the variables and determine if it's a printer, filament, or software setting issue. Things to try:

_Power cycle unit, leaving off for 30 seconds before each and every test.

_ Be sure your upgraded extruder is working very smoothly, with no stiction. They do warp with heat if made from PLA (ABS is far better). I found that mine (whpthomas' design) works better with a slightly longer and lighter spring.

_Have you checked to be sure the drive wheel is not slipping on the shaft? A common problem related to a poor installation by MBI. Ideally, the shaft should be filed down and the set screw properly engaged. (careful to keep shavings out of the motor!). When remounting, I found that two layers of "six-pack" cardstock worked well to shim the motor from the mounting block and keep the PLA lever a bit cooler. This helps isolate heat. Be sure that drive wheel is centered on filament when reassembling.

_Make sure the fan is blowing in (you could even try removing the heat sink -- and you might even mount this or another heat sink to the rear of the stepper motor as Wingcommander recommends)

_Clean the hot end connector wires under the side blower fan with electronics cleaner.

_ Print the same stl file that failed with the same filament, using the MakerWare Low slicer settings. (If this works, you can eliminate the filament as a problem and will know that your machine works. If it fails, try different filament to determine if it's the machine.)

_If the above fails, you likely have a heater error. Most likely the thermocouple needs to be replaced (a VERY common problem) or the hot end has gone bad.

_If the above print works, try the MW Medium setting, then try the the MW High setting, but change the layer thickness to 0.15 mm.

_If all those work, then try whatever it was that you tried initially that failed

The Troubleshooting section of my Zero to Hero Guide might help a bit: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:71575

Hope this helps... It can be maddening, I know!

~Dave

[TobyCWoods]

Yes... you printed ok with it before. That means nothing.  The filament can easily bulge for just a tiny bit anywhere along the 2.2 lbs on the spool. Did you measure the tip after unloading from the last time it did an air print? It seems to me you have not. Your bot may be perfectly fine and it's simply your filament!
Can you extrude at all? If you do does the stream go down straight and consistently... making nice curls at the bottom? If so NO clog! If the stream goes off to one side then you probably have blockage on the sides of the nozzle. If it goes normal and slows, then normal then slows... it could be slippage at the gear/bearing. If it is slow and you hear the stepper making it's clicking noise it means the filament is not going through the path easily, but if there were blockage you would not get much extruding at all.

As you yourself wrote... you print fine for an hour or so and then the extruder stops.

There are other reasons for this to happen then those mentioned above. If the tip of the nozzle touches the previous layer over and over again from too much PLA getting extruded in to too small a space then you can get a clog at the nozzle. This happens alot when you try to print a Vase or a shell like thing as a shell with infill within the shell wall and not as a solid with no infill. 

[Arik Czerniak]

Yeah, this happens specifically when i print lithopanes..

U think the filament could have been ruined by the weather or something?

Its makerbot filament. Havent been keeping it sealed and there is a lo of humidity here. 

Ill measure the filament next time. Thing is, after it air prints i pause the print, press load and it extrudes.. Or continues extruding after an unload for a sec and then load.

It happens on 0.2 m lithophane prints..

Could it be specific corrupted g code?

Or maybe the bed is too clisetonthe nozzle? I trued increaseing the distance but it didnt help yet.

[TobyCWoods]

If it was your filament then you would have not been able to extrude after it stopped and you would have to unload the filament, clip it, then reload to get it to work. If it were a clog it would not have been able to go as long as it did.

It sounds more like it is what you are printing and NOT your printer. I've never printed one of these. Can you upload a sample so we can look?

[TobyCWoods]

I just took a look at a Lithopane from the thingiverse. Yes it is possible that you have your settings on this thing set in such a way that it could be extruding more plastic then you would want on to one of those peaks and yeah that can clog the tip of the nozzle.... which then clears easily when you extrude on Load... unlike clogs caused by other reasons...

Post the thing, the SW you are using and the settings.

[Arik Czerniak]

thanks people for all the comments.

the problem still happens.

it doesn't happen when i print at low quality - i.e. 0.34mm replicatorG profile.

the same print at higher quality (0.2) starts to airprint and + clicks usually after 20-60 minutes.

it seems to fail when the printing has a lot of flat surfaces like a box (i tried a rasp pi case that worked at 0,34 and failed at 0,2)

what seems to be happening is that the nozzle gets clogged after a while and the extruder can't push thru this.

im not sure whats causing it - if it's the nozzle touching something on the print, etc.

things i tried: leveling the plate. keeping the largest distance from the plate. putting a ventilator ON the bot to reduce the heat. printing at 235 and 225c.. still keeps happening.

any ideas would be appreciated.

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