Re: Replicator 2x problem with extruding PLA

[FDP]

Read other threads. The 2X does not do PLA.

On Monday, June 10, 2013 12:24:31 PM UTC-4, MK321 wrote:

I have never had a problem with ABS even when printing on 0.1mm layer height , but i just received blue painters tape and wanted to give it a try to print PLA .

my extruder stops extruding after first or second layer and i start to hear ticking sound as if the filament is slipping !!

yes i have tried to tighten the spring of the extruder , and i cleaned the nozzle several times , also tried to raise up the heat but still stops extruding at one point.

is there any extruder upgrade for such a problem ?  

I am using makerbot's red PLA 

thank you in advance

[TaErog]

Or possibly add allot of supplemental cooling and print in PLA.

[dmertens6956]

OK everyone, I finally got my 2X to print PLA with both extruders.  First off, I would like to thank everyone for their suggestions.  After two weeks of trying everything I could think of here is what I came up with.

-  Build plate covered with blue painters tape and then sprayed with hair spray
-  Added 5" fan inside of printer - leave top off - leave front door open
-  Changed out stock extruder to spring loaded extruder
-  Set extruder temperature to 220C
-  Add cooking oil to end of plastic

I am using MakerWare Version 2.2.0.46 and its default settings for all three PLA settings - Low, Standard, and High - only changing the extruder temperature to 220C.
I tried printing my own spring loaded extruders but couldn't get them to work so the ones I finally got to work where the ones I ordered from peoples-exchange on ebay.
I added the 5" fan to the left side of the printer mostly to keep the extruders from getting too hot during initial start up - its location doesn't really blow on them while its printing but I leave it running since the setup seems to be working.  The spring loaded extruders also allow for the plastic to be loaded without using the printer load/unload procedure which might be too hot at 230C.
The last thing I did was to dip the ends of the plastic into cooking oil.  This step might be the only step needed since all the other things didn't work reliably but as I said before the setup seems to be working so I have left all the other changes until I have more time to undo them one at a time to see if it was just the oil that did the trick.  I also still need to play around with the 220C temperature to see if I can lower it to reduce the amount of extra material seeping out of the extruder not being used during dual printing.

I have attached pictures of everything I have used to get this to work.  Once again, thanks to everyone that provided help and suggestions to get this to work.

[Burton Isenstein]

I am having the same issue (got up to speed on a Makerbot Rep 2 printing PLA, had to give it up and now have a Rep 2x.  PLA has not worked so far on the 2X. I tried the cooking oil and it did stop the clicking. Is the extruder upgrade you link to for the Rep 2, or the 2X, or is it interchangeble?  Is it the extruder upgrade that is the key to your success or is it the fan and removing the sides and top?

Thanks,

BI

[dmertens6956]

Burton, the extruder upgrade is for the 2X.  I bolted them right in when I received them from "peoples-exchange" off ebay.  I think they actually improved the ABS printing as well.  However, I was only able to get the PLA to work after I implemented all of the things I listed with the oil being the last thing I did.  I think everything plays a part - build plate prep allows for cooler extruding temp and internal fan keeps the extruders cool until printing actually starts.  I plan to undo all the changes and just try the oil at a later date and will post updates.

Dan

[Burton Isenstein]

Dan,

Thanks for your quick reply.  

I'm currently doing my first PLA print experiment since I first got the machine and had nothing but PLA disasters.  I'm using blue tape, have the extruder temp set to 210 platform to 30.  I used olive oil on the filament.   I was around 20 percent of the print when the clicking started so I paused, then removed and reloaded the filament (with more olive oil) and it's been running fine since then. The print started out a little funky with a small delamination at the bottom but seems to be doing fine as it's moved up on the object.

I'm thinking that the filament might have started out too hot, so using a fan may take care of that.  From the look of your photo it looks like you took a little fan and installed it in the box, correct?

I think I'll try the extruder upgrade (although I must admit it's annoying to have to upgrade parts after having the machine for less than 2 weeks.). 

Also, at a makerbot user friends suggested I change the extrude speed to 130 and travel speed to 150. Not sure why, but seems to be working ok. 

Burt

[Burton Isenstein]

One other question. Have you made any 2 color prints with PLA on your 2X?   I've been doing them with ABS and am wondering if I'll be able to get them to work with the other material.

Burt

On Saturday, July 6, 2013 11:55:24 AM UTC-5, dmertens6956 wrote:

[dmertens6956]

I have been able to print two PLA colors with my 2X.  The spring loader extruders allow you to load the material "cold" and with the added internal fan blowing on the extruders at the start of printing it allows you to keep the filaments from going above your printing temperature.  I have been using 220C as the printing temp but it results in some some seeping of material from the extruder that is in standby while the other one is printing.  I need to experiment with lower temps to see if this goes away.  It doesn't keep you from a successful print but it does require extra cleanup and can result in color mixing.  You can see what I mean in the PLA LOW and the PLA MED pictures with the orange spots in the white letters.  All of these prints are with dual printing.

I played around with changing the speeds but nothing seemed to make a difference so now I just stick to the default speeds in MakerWare.

Just to be clear, this is what I do to start a dual print job:  Everything is cold, I clip the ends of both filaments and dip them in oil, tap excess oil off of the ends, press down on the spring extruder and insert the filament as far down as it will go (should go past the stepper gear and well into the heated tube), and then start the print job.  If you didn't push the material down far enough then it won't print anything during the purge print and you have to cancel and then restart the print and you should be good to go.

I, too, am frustrated with MakerBot that any of this has to be done but it is what it is.  It appears that none of these things hurt the ABS printing and the 2X outperforms the $30,000 dimension printer I have access to at work, I can live with it.

[SurlyMonkey]

Thank you dmertens for posting your fixes with PLA I've been reluctant to try printing PLA on my 2x because of all the horror stories on here. Based on your results I think i'm willing to give it a try now.  My 2x prints ABS like a dream but I'm really interested in trying Nylon filament for printing zip ties. Has anyone tried nylon on a 2x yet?

[dmertens6956]

I haven't tried Nylon...   yet...

[Jake Dambergs]

I'm hesitant to use cooking oil as it will trap dirt + other stuff and eventually get gummed up.  There are some very light oils available, and other lubricants like teflon which should not trap dirt.  I'm curious if there's any reason you're using cooking oil other than it being cheap & accessible?

Thanks for the info btw!

Jake D

[Eighty]

From Wikipedia:
The pyrolysis of PTFE is detectable at 200 °C (392 °F), and it evolves several fluorocarbon gases[23] and a sublimate. An animal study conducted in 1955 concluded that it is unlikely that these products would be generated in amounts significant to health at temperatures below 250 °C (482 °F).[24] More recently, however, a study documented birds having been killed by these decomposition products at 202 °C (396 °F), with unconfirmed reports of bird deaths as a result of non-stick cookware heated to as little as 163 °C (325 °F).[23][25]

It ain't going on my extruder.

[Burton Isenstein]

So are you saying that PLA is actually more toxic than ABS?  That's kind of hard to believe because the fumes from PLA (and there are fumes) seem much milder than ABS.  This is potentially of concern because I have a 35 year old parrot and would horrified if he keels over while I'm printing PLA on my Makerbot. 

[dmertens6956]

Cheap and accessible was the key...  Might put a piece of foam at inlet of filament guide tubes to keep out excess dirt...

[dmertens6956]

Burton, I think what Eighty is saying is that the lubricant PTFE isn't a good idea, not that PLA material when heated is toxic.

[Eighty]

Yes...PTFE. Not PLA.

[Justin Luzius]

Jake i saw this thread a day or so ago and have been printing with the original extruder with PLA at 220C at 40mm per sec and 150mm per sec travel speed non stop for almost 24 hours all i have done is use a Q tip to apply the cooking oil every few min and it works amazing no clogs or anything 

[Jake Dambergs]

Excellent info, thank you.

> On Jul 9, 2013, at 11:08 PM, Eighty <adun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes...PTFE. Not PLA.
>
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[Damian Gto]

I am sorry to say but this is very very wrong.

There is tons of stuff with PTFE that you use in cookware that you using it close to 300 degree c.

So if that would be true then none cookware would have a PTFE on them when you use them in hot area.

Also its not only the PTFE that you have to look at. you must also see what the PTFE is in.

[Damian Gto]

I just checked my bottle with PTFE oil.

It says is will stand heat up to 250 degree c.

That also means that it will stand more heat before it will be any danger to it, due the safety margin they have.

This is a standard ball bearing oil with PTFE.

If it was toxic at that temperature then it would say so on the bottle or it would not even been sold with that label.

[Eighty]

There's a very real reason that Teflon cookware is marked as not being allowed in ovens (cooktops only). Because when you get up into the 350*F range, the off-gassing is harmful.

When my wife bought a canary a few years ago, she insisted that we get rid of all Teflon cookware in favor of stainless steel. It was because of the known issues.

You do whatever you want there, Damian. But regardless of your opinion, people should make up their own minds as to what level of risk they're willing to accept.

[Infinityplusplus]

The potential harmfulness of PTFE is well documented. It has to do with the manufacturing of it and the use of PFOA in that process. The EPA has documented the chemicals released when PTFE is put to high temperatures causes adverse effects in lab animals. There is a reason they set up the PFOA Stewardship program. Doesn't seem worth the risk to me.

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/pfoa/pubs/stewardship/index.html

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/pfoa/

[Damian Gto]

Well its not PTFE, its PFOA...

"Major pathways that enable PFOA, in very small quantities, to get into human blood are not yet fully understood. PFOA is used to make fluoropolymers and can also be released by the transformation of some fluorinated telomers. However, consumer products made with fluoropolymers and fluorinated telomers, including Teflon® and other trademark products, are not PFOA. Rather, some of them may contain trace amounts of PFOA and other related perfluorinated chemicals as impurities. The information that EPA has available does not indicate that the routine use of consumer products poses a concern. At present, there are no steps that EPA recommends that consumers take to reduce exposures to PFOA."

We can argue about this, but even EPA do not file any restricting or anything about this. Almost on every test the PFOA that might be in some bad made cookingware is not over the limits that it has. But like the study  DuPont did on Teflon PTFE did not detect any PFOA above their detection limit of 9 parts per billion.

A 2009 USEPA study found levels of PFOA in nonstick cookware ranging from undetected (with a detection limit of 1.5 parts per billion) to 4.3 parts per billion.[34] DuPont says there should be no measurable amount on a finished pan provided it has been properly cured.

Also if this was as big problem that you think then PTFE is cookware would not be allowed. 

[Diego Seminario]

Hey guys, im having a problem whit pla too, but i thing it is something diferent... the line of the axix x and y are no close enougth... i dont know if you understand me but the lines dont merge and makes the base and roof so bad !

[Jetguy]

What you are saying is the "path" of the nozzle is incorrect for a given assumed nozzle size and resulting strip of plastic being put down.

Yes, this is a gcode creation error and others complained about it in Makerware in some versions.

 

Note though, this can be exagerated by user error in the form of a non-level or incorrect first layer height from tamming/leveling the bed.

Another possible cause is a reduced rate of extrusion due to a slipping filament feeder (clicking, slipping, or grinding filament), and that in and of itself has a few hundred possible toot causes and solutions.

 

So basically, can you isolate the problem to a version of software and reverting back "solves" the issue, or is this just in general, you cannot get a decent print?

[FDP]

Just a second update to my PLA experience. After switching to a Rep 2 from a 2X a few weeks ago I have been able to print some very large, tall 8-10 hour prints with success (with the exception of a little minor corner curling that I am working to fix). I would again stress that anyone who needs PLA for any reason may want to consider just going for a Rep 2. I do miss the heated build plate (would probably help with curling) but not enough to feel like I have made the wrong decision in switching machines.

The only failures I continue to experience are with the first layer of Makerware support structures, which are often printing so fast that they just spray out of the nozzle and bounce off the blue tape I am using on my plate. My solution, hack that it is, is to manually place a 0.5mm fully filled raft under the supports - after that they work perfectly. I had this same issue with my 2X. 

I am starting to test hairspray + painters tape, and again would suggest that not all painters tape is equal. I have tested ~4 types of tape now and have found one that works really well - ScotchBlue 2093EL. Other ScotchBlue tapes have worked poorly, so it isn't even a brand issue. I am in the US, and picked up Garnier Fructis extreme control & full control for the hairspray, I will give feedback on my experience with those as I test them further.

As to safety issue, I am one to lean in the direction of being more careful then less.The fumes from PLA/ABS aren't great, why add more question marks into the mix? There are vegetable oils that should work for those of you who want to oil the filament (hasn't been necessary on my Rep 2, but would certainly have tried it on the 2X). The EPA and FDA in the US are toothless and corrupt respectively and I would never in a million years cite a lack of regulation on their part as being an indication of the safety of a product!

-FDP 

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 1:58:10 PM UTC-4, Diego Seminario wrote:

[Dan Newman]

On 10 Jul 2013 , at 11:24 AM, FDP wrote:

> Just a second update to my PLA experience. After switching to a Rep 2 from
> a 2X a few weeks ago I have been able to print some very large, tall 8-10
> hour prints with success (with the exception of a little minor corner
> curling that I am working to fix). I would again stress that anyone who
> needs PLA for any reason may want to consider just going for a Rep 2. I do
> miss the heated build plate (would probably help with curling) but not
> enough to feel like I have made the wrong decision in switching machines.

You can always buy a HBP for the Rep 2 from Bottleworks,

http://bctechnologicalsolutions.com/

I don't believe that he's begun shipping yet, but I believe he will soon.
I happen to have a prototype which he sent me about two months ago and it
works really well with Sailfish at least.

Dan

[Joel Edelstein]

Thanks Dan! That upgrade looks very interesting. I actually picked up Bottleworks' aluminum arms already, and an aluminum build plate. Haven't installed the arms yet, doing that and installing sailfish are on my immediate todo.

[3DwannaB]

Why use tape?

[Burton Isenstein]

I have another Rep 2X problem with 2 color printing that I thought someone might have some insight into.  

I've moved back to printing ABS because I was too frustrated with PLA (will resume that when I have regained my patience).  I also have the extruder upgrade from Peoples exchange sitting on my desk, but have not installed it yet).

My first attempts at 2 color printing worked exactly as I hoped they would (successfully) but I have been unable to get the exact same files(and process) to repeat print as intended.  They were set up with one color as an inlay inside the other color on the surface bed of makerware.  I used Tinkercad to create holes on the surface of the shape, copied and pasted the objects that were used to create the holes into another Tinkercad file, then exported both as STL files. Brought the individual files (object with hole, object that was originally used to create the hole) into Makerware, then arranged the positive object into the hole of the other object. The first time I tried this it printed exactly as I had hoped it would with the printer laying a layer of the object in the middle in one color, then drawing the rest of the object in the other color around the other color.  Switched back and forth until I had a solid layer of one pattern surrounded by another pattern. 

I made about 6-8 different objects this way so I know I wasn't hallucinating.  Now when I try to print these files I get nothing but air in the beginning of the process as the printer goes through the motions but doesn't produce anything.  I've messed around a lot with leveling and have gotten the printer to where I get perfect prints with some leveling files so I know that's not the problem.  Does anyone have a theory about what is going on here?  I know something has to have changed with the printer because I've been trying to reprint the exact same files created in Makerware that had printed easily (with not changes to infill or width or anything). 

I'm hoping that upgrading the extruders will cure the problem so I think that changing them out will be my next step but maybe I'm completely missing something else her.  (another note that may or may not be relevant).  A little chunk of ceramic material (which I presume is from the printer head) dropped out of the printer head a while ago.  Could that have anything to do with my problem?

Thanks in advance.  Burt I

[Colin Bean]

Just a thought, but could all of this have to do with the Replicator 2X's electronics? Makerbot added another extruder and a HPB, which would draw a lot of power, but it doesn't look like any of the electronics were upgraded. Is it drawing so much power that the bot can't hold the temperature steady like PLA requires?

On Monday, June 10, 2013 11:24:31 AM UTC-5, MK321 wrote:

I have never had a problem with ABS even when printing on 0.1mm layer height , but i just received blue painters tape and wanted to give it a try to print PLA .

my extruder stops extruding after first or second layer and i start to hear ticking sound as if the filament is slipping !!

yes i have tried to tighten the spring of the extruder , and i cleaned the nozzle several times , also tried to raise up the heat but still stops extruding at one point.

is there any extruder upgrade for such a problem ?  

I am using makerbot's red PLA 

thank you in advance

[Colin Bean]

So I finally got PLA to print on my Replicator 2X. The solution was to print 153807: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:153807, and instead dip a small piece of a sponge into oil (I used vegetable, but I heard Canola works), then thread the filament through the top, sponge, and attach it all to the extruder. Looks like the PLA just needs a little bit of oiling...

[Vincent Savoy]

Hey guys, I tried every method that is listed above. Some worked a little and some just didnt work at all. I really do appriciate everyone trying to help out each other. Sad part is that we come up with ideas and makerbot makes money off of it.

This is something that I did and it has been working for about 10 hours now.

1Print a Spring loaded extruder
2Unscrew your fan that your pla is running through, take out the cooling fins and put fan back. This will leave a gap between your fan and spring extruder that will allow direct flow of air to your filament.
3Radio shack and buy some large fans and put blowing on the build plate.

Create a custom profile that changes your "retract distance" to 1.3


then make some stuff

[mmkau]

I actually e-mailed MakerBot Support for this. The reply wasn't too useful. What really was a slap in the face was that they claimed that Makerbot Replicator 2x does not print PLA and nowhere do they say it prints PLA. This is incorrect as, on their makerbot youtube account, they posted replies saying that the Replicator 2x does print PLA. I e-mailed back saying that they did say it prints PLA....and they were being a bit dishonest. Needless to say I haven't heard back from them. 

Well at any rate, No thanks to MakerBot, we did get the 2X to print PLA well. Our distributor gave us a 3D printed part that basically rubs a bit of oil onto the PLA as it enters the Extruders. So far there have been no problems, other than that the 3D printed parts are prone to breaking (snapping off, etc.). 

[Burton Isenstein]

It is dishonest that Makerbot is now denying any previous claim that the 2X can print PLA when dual material was clearly advertised when I bought the machine.  One Makerbot tech support person told me to forget about printing PLA on the 2X and that it really is an ABS optimized printer, another told me the machine can be tweaked for PLA. I think the original PLA compatible claim was wishful thinking on someone's part.  It's clear that the machine can be modified for PLA but how many people are  willing and able to have the patience to tinker the printer to get it to behave more like the Rep 2?

I ended up rewarding Makerbot's bad behavior by purchasing a Rep 2 for printing PLA, in addition to the 2X.  Once I got the hang of the 2X it's an awesome printer (for ABS).  I have had two major breakdowns though, once the XYZ motor cable went bad, the other time there was a major printer head clog and the hot end needed to be changed out.  Both times tech support sent me replacement parts very quickly so I can't complain too much about that (although why this happened on relatively new machines shows there are some unresolved issues with the original design).

Nancy Gardner
Chief Operating Potter (COP)
Nancy Gardner Ceramics
708 524 9936
nancygardnerceramics.com
nancyandburt.blogspot.com

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:50 AM, mmkau <kayle...@gmail.com> wrote:

I actually e-mailed MakerBot Support for this. The reply wasn't too useful. What really was a slap in the face was that they claimed that Makerbot Replicator 2x does not print PLA and nowhere do they say it prints PLA. This is incorrect as, on their makerbot youtube account, they posted replies saying that the Replicator 2x does print PLA. I e-mailed back saying that they did say it prints PLA....and they were being a bit dishonest. Needless to say I haven't heard back from them. 

Well at any rate, No thanks to MakerBot, we did get the 2X to print PLA well. Our distributor gave us a 3D printed part that basically rubs a bit of oil onto the PLA as it enters the Extruders. So far there have been no problems, other than that the 3D printed parts are prone to breaking (snapping off, etc.). 

--

[Joel Edelstein]

I directly asked the salesperson from whom I ordered my 2X if it would print PLA, and was told that it would print just as reliably as the 2. This was before the 2X was released.

As it turns out the 2X doesn't really print PLA reliably, and MakerBot eventually admitted that to me (after wasting a few weeks of my time emailing me suggested 'fixes').

I have to say that in my case MBI eventually saw reason and let me trade in the 2X for a 2 with the difference refunded. This was probably because I had directly asked a salesperson about PLA and they admitted giving me what turned out to be a very deceptive answer.

I also think that MBI had very wishful thinking about the 2X when it came out. To me the machine is a bit of a step backward, with a very annoying HBP and finicky extruder.

My Rep2 has done a fantastic job at printing PLA, unless the fan doesn't run (seems to be an issue with the latest makerware, I have to turn it on manually for every print), in which case the print turns into a gooey mess. The big difference between the 2 and the 2X is that I don't get the incessant jams and air printing that I got on the 2X. I have had exactly one jam on the 2.

[Francis Hauris]

Thanks for the tech advice.   I wanted to let you know that i have PLA printing reliably on my replicator 2x.  Big parts and small parts.    The steps i took were to use painters tape on the platform, adjust the set screw (just tightened it until i couldn't stop it by pinching with two fingers and loosened it until it stopped clicking), turn off the build plate heat (repg by putting a ; at the begining of the "M109 S110 T1 (set HBP temperature)" which is line 11 on my code) (Extra tip: i recommend re-leveling the build plate when not heated for more reliable results with pla and again when its heated before switching back to abs), print and utilize this sponge holder which continually oils the plastic filament (downloaded from thingiverse by ppyromann THANKS!) (attached to this email is the stl file)  Also i used replicatorG for gcode and a build temp of 200.  I still keep the lid on and front panel closed and i have no additional cooling in place. the other nozzle still has abs so both are printing great.   hope this helps!