Replicator 2 Build Platform Replacement that does not require tape, aquanet, or the like?

[Chris]

So I have been using my replicator 2 since it came out and one of my biggest frustrations is with the build platform.

Originally I had issues with parts coming free from the acrylic, so I started using the blue painters tape.  It has been working ok, but for large prints that are skinny in one direction I have had issues with the tape peeling up off the acrylic and the part warping in the long direction. 

I am willing to invest in a new platform and I have heard good things about glass and machined aluminum, but it seems that tape or aquanet are still needed.  Does anyone know of a build platform replacement which requires no tape, adhesive, paint, etc. to get the parts to stay down during printing?

Thanks,
Chris

[Bottleworks]

I don't believe that such a solution exists.  If you want a system that just keeps working, I would suggest a heated plate that has kapton tape on it.  You only replace the tape if you damage it.  It's been close to 2 month sense I've replaced the kapton tape on my Replicator 1....and I've been printing at least 12 hours+ almost everyday.  I'm printing with ABS. 

[TobyCWoods]

I never tried a hbp with PLA on my rep2. However, my best results are with glass and hair spray. Eventually I bet we will find a non aerosol, brush on polymer which will work even better then HS... But for now , IMO... HS provides enough bonding to keep almost any print from completely coming off and... Very importantly... The glass allows for easy removal when the BP and object are placed in the freezer for 10 minutes or so. Great stick AND easy removal is the goal and so far for PLA and a nonHBP this seems to be the best we have.

[Eighty]

One day, I'm sure that someone will discover the "perfect" solution.  I don't mind the hairspray - I remove my build plate to apply it, of course.  Someone has posted that a brush-on acrylic gel also works great on the glass plates.

 

The final solution, though, will need to be fireproof.  An acquaintance told me that the fire marshal (and insurance company) shut him down on the hairspray thing.  It was considered a fire hazard in his professional shop.  He even tested the theory - he applied a 230C heat source to his hairsprayed plate, and was able to start a small fire after several minutes.  I haven't tested this theory - it's simply hearsay.  But long story short: We should strive to find a solution that does NOT involve the possibility of a fire, no matter how remote the possibility.

[David Celento]

Woah....

[Bottleworks]

Yikes!  That's sounds like a overzealous fire marshal.  Hair salons must have a horrible problem. 

[Joseph Chiu]

As 3D printers further go into the mainstream and stop being "hobbyist kits", many of the current entrants will have to bow out when fire marshalls start checking machines for their safety certification.  While not universally required, many major cities have laws that preclude the use of uncertified devices.

When I was finishing up college, I worked part time for a film recorder manufacturer (a printer for making slides and photo negatives - they later printed digitally enhanced movies onto film masters for distributing movies) -- in the company's early days, they did not have UL certification on their machines.

There's a very legitimate reason for UL certification (and their equivalents, CSA and ETL being the two that I've personally worked with).   They basically ensure that the device and its parts would not start or sustain a fire under normal or likely fault conditions, or have other hazardous modes of operation.

A service bureau that bought a room full of their machines had their business basically frozen when the fire marshalls ordered the non-UL machines to removed from the premises.  Safety certification is a slow and expensive process - and it doesn't stop at the initial testing.  You have an ongoing "subscription" to maintain that safety certification.

Purchasing departments in larger organizations, especially when making large purchases, will often check that a device meets a certain approval check-list -- and safety certification is often in that check-list.   I know that issue has come up with the Replicator for at least one educational customer.

I don't know this for a fact, but I'm pretty sure that part of the reason why the Replicator 2 is made of metal parts and injection molded plastic is, imho, to get that safety certification.

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Eighty <adun...@gmail.com> wrote:

One day, I'm sure that someone will discover the "perfect" solution.  I don't mind the hairspray - I remove my build plate to apply it, of course.  Someone has posted that a brush-on acrylic gel also works great on the glass plates.

 

The final solution, though, will need to be fireproof.  An acquaintance told me that the fire marshal (and insurance company) shut him down on the hairspray thing.  It was considered a fire hazard in his professional shop.  He even tested the theory - he applied a 230C heat source to his hairsprayed plate, and was able to start a small fire after several minutes.  I haven't tested this theory - it's simply hearsay.  But long story short: We should strive to find a solution that does NOT involve the possibility of a fire, no matter how remote the possibility.

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[David Celento]

This was discussed earlier, but I can't recall the answer. Are any of MBI's printers UL certified currently?

[Joseph Chiu]

I don't believe so.  I expect they're working on that, though.  I should have thought to check yesterday.  D'oh.

The external power supply will be, though, and that's the first place that the safety issue will concentrate on.  But in a discussion on this list last year, I think it was identified that the total power going into the printer put it above the threshold where you can just certify the PSU for safety.  

Given the nature of how the printer works, it's also likely that any safety certification process for this and other similar printers would even other non-fire safety issues (hand-touch issues, specifically).  (And, don't even get me started about glass and safety certification... *shudder*)

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 11:38 AM, David Celento <dcel...@gmail.com> wrote:

This was discussed earlier, but I can't recall the answer. Are any of MBI's printers UL certified currently?

[Dan Newman]

On 20 May 2013 , at 11:03 AM, Joseph Chiu wrote:

> As 3D printers further go into the mainstream and stop being "hobbyist
> kits", many of the current entrants will have to bow out when fire
> marshalls start checking machines for their safety certification. While
> not universally required, many major cities have laws that preclude the use
> of uncertified devices.

And, I remember reading of at least one case of a company using ABS
3D printers in LA County who, when Cal OSHA came in and got a whiff
of the fumes, hit them with the same ventillation requirements that
the injection molding outfits have to conform to. (I have no idea
what those regulations are.) I don't recall who the group was -- I
just remember seeing someone's blog detail the event. (And, IIRC,
they only had three or four 3D printers.)

> I don't know this for a fact, but I'm pretty sure that part of the reason
> why the Replicator 2 is made of metal parts and injection molded plastic
> is, imho, to get that safety certification.

And don't forget the external, certified PSU which is UL certified.
Mind you, the equipment does not in the US classify as "low voltage".
It falls into the UL's 20.1 - 42.4V peak category which is limited
to 100VA. And 100 VA single phase at 24 V only gets you 4.2 A (100VA / 24V).

Dan

[Bottleworks]

My first posts on the forum was about the lack of an Emergency stop button on the replicator 1.  I wanted to bring it into my wife's classroom but there was a concern because it didn't have a safety stop button. 

[Bryon Miller]

I would be very interested in a plate that does not require anything added.  OP I bought a glass plate and started to use it because I needed a flat surface and my prints would not always stick to the acrylic.  I have to put on about 4 coats of the hair spray, then just touch up after each print.  It's not as bad as it seems.  I would still like to avoid the whole process if possible though.

[DHeadrick]

It is being worked on here.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!starred/makerbot/ogWODYHSFDE

This upgrade not intended to be a build platform replacement but a surface you fix on top which will allow sufficient adhesion while easily allowing parts to be removed.

[TobyCWoods]

All good points... But as far as I can see my Rep2 has no certs at all!
Except of course for the off the shelf and completely separate power supply.

Except for the higher end stratasys devices I'd bet none of the 3d printers meet any safety or other certs (like RF interference).

Probably not a good idea to tell your insurance provider you have one.

[Harrison]

So I've been thinking about this a bit. It seems to be that an acid etched or sandblasted glass build plate could make this work. Check out this thread over on the reprap forums:

http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,163015,163659

A lot of that is ABS talk, but some people have had success with sandblasted glass plates. It also seems that a heated glass plate with nothing on it works quite well for PLA, with the part popping off once the glass is cool. 

I need to get some more glass to cut to shape, but I am hoping to try out the sandblasting in the coming week.

[David Celento]

An acid etched glass plate works pretty well, but it needs hairspray. Less than smooth glass, though.

[James Harbal]

See my Post: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/makerbot/_adMsvy-IAI

I am working on this with my Glass Plates.

[Richard]

I spoke to someone at MBI a while back and they recognized the
certification issue. He was an engineer and he said the new head of
operations had the same concerns. They've done the testing on the Rep
2 and it meets requirements as I recall but they viewed the cost to
make it official as too much at this time. As noted the P/S has its
stamps.

The body panels are PVC, not something you want to burn, but if it
gets that far, you have more problems going on than some plastic
fumes. PVC is much harder to ignite than other plastics due to its
high ignition temp (up to 450 degrees C). However, due to its
molecular structure it apparently will get soft at lower temps than
some other plastics. You are more likely to have your Rep II melt
into a blob around the frame than have it turn into a ball of fire.

http://www.pvc.org/en/p/pvcs-physical-properties

[Wayne H]

Chris,

 

I have something that might be what you are looking for. I'd like someone with a replicator to test it for me. It's something I hope to market and want to try it on several different machines. Interested? Anyone?  I just need the exact dimensions of the platform and if there are any holes needed, what size, location. The plate I'm building needs to be heated and it's about 0.20 (5mm)  inches thick. You can just clip it to your platform with binder clips I think - that's where I need help. I don't have a Replicator so I don't know exactly how you would attach it. Clip it on or use screws...? 

 

 I've had a couple reprap folks try it and they love it. You can print ABS and PLA on it with no tape, hairspray, acetone juice, etc. I've been printing ABS with the surface at about 70-80C and PLA around 45C. It sticks through the whole print, pops off when it cools and you can use it over and over.

 

I will send it to you for free if you tell me how it does for you. Let me know...

 

Wayne

 

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 8:13:17 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote:

[Christopher Wlezien]

Wayne,

Thanks for the offer, that seems really cool.  I have tried all sorts of high surface energy clip on materials and found the hairspray to work the best personally.  I would love to try out your solution, but I do not have a heated build plate so I would not be a good candidate I am afraid.

Best,
Chris W

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[Wayne]

Hi Chris,
Actually, for printing PLA I'm not sure yet if it has to be heated. My printer doesn't allow me to not heat the bed. Would like to know if it will work though since many people don't have heat. If you would be interested I can make one for you.

Thanks, Wayne