Etched Glass and Hairspray (...no, not the John Waters film)

[David Celento]

Mentat-Makerbot asked about etched glass and adhesion a few days ago. Curious as well, I had a piece cut at my local custom glass shop.

The short story is that it seems to provide much better adhesion than smooth glass with hairspray. Prints had to be peeled off, rather than sort of popping off, as I've found to be the case with smooth glass. This is either a good or bad thing depending on your type of printing.

Here's the blow-by-blow:

My method involves loosely taping the left and right edges to an MBI acrylic build plate to prevent shifting. Too tight and you may transfer warping from the MBI plate. My smooth single pane replacement window glass is 2.22 mm thick. The one-side acid-etched sheet was 3.36 mm thick. The benefit of the acid-etched is increased strength due to greater thickness. The drawback is that setting one's clearance gap is a bit more difficult due to high spring tension. (I've found that a total assembly thickness of about 12 mm, from table to top of glass) is about as far as one can go and still get a clearance gap of 0.10 mm before running out of adjustment range. (Incidentally, thanks goes to Jack Coats for the MacGuyver Tip of using a crisp dollar bill for setting the gap -- it measures 0.11mm -- handy for those in the US who are too lazy to dig out their feeler gauges!). The acid-etch is very uniform providing mild surface grit. I imagine (but have not tested) that one could get even better bonding using sand-blasted glass. Bead size for blasting then would have to be explored and the surface height may have more variation.

As for hairspray, the interesting part on the acid-etched piece is that a light mist is all it takes. My own experience with smooth glass and hair spray is that it requires a decent amount (sort of like spray painting a uniform coat) to work.

[xenogea...@gmail.com]

Did you try the etched glass without the hairspray?

[David Celento]

Yes. Poor stick at 230c. No stick at 220c.

Betting sandblasted glass might stick?

[TaErog]

Great to know,
My wife works with glass and I may get her to make me some to play with . . . do not know why I did not think of trying etched or blasted surfaces!

[David Celento]

Please do report back on your findings! My guess is that a range of blasting media size will have significant impacts.

[Mentat-MakerBot]

So what lead me to think about etched glass is the picture below, i got tired of prints not sticking, so i was like hmmm. Got me an extra build plate and BAM, it works well once you lay a raft. 

Something else I am in the process of doing is getting some PYREX style glass and sticking this to it, it is a heated sheet made by 3M and I plan on using this to modify my Rep2 with a Heated platform that will use the Glass pyrex platform.

All this came from http://www.mcmaster.com

I am also taking the table that my bots sit on and enclosing them in Plexiglass with a door that opens in 2 section in the from that way the heat stays nice and warm through out.

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 1:47:37 AM UTC-4, David Celento wrote:

[furicks]

Did anyone give the etched glass a real try? If so how did it work? 

[Jetguy]

Hate to put on the Captain Obvious mask, but if it worked that well, wouldn't you hear more about it?

[Steven Furick]

Maybe but all innovations start out obscure. There's a whole lot of steps between ordering a Rep 2X and printing on an etched boro glass plate. I wouldn't be all that surprised if only a handful of people have ever tried it. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/makerbot/E8cSw30ZOeQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[3DwannaB]

The etching adds nothing and ruins the glassy finish.

Glass and HS works fine without etching.

[Damian Gto]

I have a hard time time believe this statement.
If you etching the surface you will make stuff fasten better. That is a know fact. So why should it not work with 3d printing?
Sure the glass finish will be dull, but I believe that is a good tradeoff. You can also use high quality "sand paper" to make the surface better to.

[3DwannaB]

Damian I do not care that you have a hard time believing it. Your belief is not required by me nor others.

Etching is not needed so why do it? The hold of the HS is an optimal solution. The etching by itself is not enough to hold with glass so HS would also be used anyway. A good design does not add unneeded elements. All I see are negatives to using it; 1. added cost 2. loss of glass-like finish. Tradeoffs: no positives... only negatives... 

If anything the added hold of unneeded etching could hinder removal... though I doubt it.

Others over the past year here have experimented already with all forms of glass etching including uniform lines, sand blasted, etc... all have ended up going without it and simply use HS on a clean surface. HS provides an optimal hold and since HS cannot bond to the glass (or other material like aluminum or slate) removal is not a problem. Rather then creating yet another worthless debate why don't you SIMPLY TRY IT. That is... unless for some irrelevant reason you refuse to apply solutions to your 3D printer that have been found by someone else...?

[Damian Gto]

Well some people do not use Hairspray or even want to.

Also an etched or sanded glass make stuff bound more easy. Thats a fact.

The reason is very simple if  you think about it.

There is more area on the surface that the plastic slurry, kapton tape or HS can bound to. 

The process make the surface not to be so flat so there those things cab stick better.

This is a well know fact for everybody that deal with stuff that is glued together och painted.
You need to remove the flat surface to get a surface that is easy to bond things on. On a flat surface its a lot harder to get things sticked to. Period.

If you do not believe me then just a search on internet and see how you will get stuff bounded on a flat surface..

So no you do not need to believe me, but I know what I do talk about. After all I got about  5 years of experience with it when I did work with this kind of stuff.

[furicks]

Personally, and the reason I revived this discussion, I believe that any permanent solution is superior to any equally effective temporary solution.  What I would really love, is to see if someone has tried both and to have them post specific results. Clearly there has been a discussion around the effects of hair spray. I have yet to see any photos or evidence on the etched glass. 

What I really don't want to see is a yelling match about how one is superior to the others. Maybe someone can post photos that speak for themselves. 

[3DwannaB]

OK... why don't you try it?

[Steven Furick]

I've been in the progress. Boro glass can't be etched using etching cream so I'm trying other solutions. I would like to know if anyone else has discovered anything that does or doesn't work especially well. Might save me and others some time and energy. 

--

[DHeadrick]

I know people love their glass and hairspray and then cooling the whole print and platform to pop parts off with thermal shock... but I have to admit that printing on top of a thin sheet of lexan and then flexing the part off is much less hassle.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:112179

Make your own decision about what is easier.  The images above are of the surface quality that is standard when printing on Lexan (no hairspray or tapes).  I had to put the camera into manual focus because the surface was so shiny it was focusing on the reflection.

[furicks]

Those are really nice prints. There's almost no curving of the edges. Is this ABS? How far from the bed do you put the nozzels? 

Are you using makerware to do the slicing? 

[DHeadrick]

This is PLA printing on a Replicator 2 using the standard gap of 0.1mm (leveled with a feeler gauge).  I sliced it with the latest Makerware.  You can actually see that there were 3 shells.

[3DwannaB]

I would like to be sure we all fully understand your experience with Lexan.

You never have to sand the Lexan? It is clean and shiny permanently?

My experience with plastics such as acrylic was that over time the surface tends to bond to PLA and the only way to get it to allow release was to sand it or buff it after 5-10 prints depending on the print. The resulting finish is not at all shiny, Not as bumpy as tape, but no where near as fine as glass.

I will try Lexan myself and report here.

[DHeadrick]

I have not had to sand the Lexan sheet I have been using.  I have not had a part bond to the Lexan where it couldn't be removed easily.  There are 2 surfaces that have been running for a while now (the printer lifetimes are in the other discussion).  I will take a photo of these surfaces so you can see what condition they are in as well as how many hours they have each logged.

[3DwannaB]

I just went shopping for Lexan. Not exactly as affordable as a $2.65 can of Aquanet + a $5, 4mm 9x6 plate glass... is it?

I've actually been waiting quite awhile to hear about it from others who have purchased it from you and used it.

If it's the solution you are saying it is we need to hear from others. 

With HS one does NOT have to spray each time to get it to stick it nor put the BP in freezer every time to get it to release. It depends on the thing being printed. For a very big thing that touches the entire BP or is very fragile the freezer is a good idea. Otherwise it is rare. As I operate now I have just printed the 30 or so parts for the Tardis Transformer. I only had to do a small touchup of HS once at the start otherwise each part stuck and each part was easily removed by hand. No clips. No overlay to pull off and twist or whatever then reinstall and re-level the bed. No Tape. No need to go into the freezer either. Each surface is as smooth and shiny as the glass it was printed on. After 6 months of working this way reliably on not only my Rep2 with PLA but also my FF with ABS and a HBP for me to switch to something that looks like it may work will take more convincing then just the word of the person who sells it.

[Bottleworks]

FYI guys, I'm working on permanent coatings which will be applied to glass.  You shouldn't need hair spray, or tape.  Working with PLA and ABS is the plan...  Just need to find the time to work on it more.  Stay tuned. 

[DHeadrick]

I understand your point.  I wouldn't believe me either.  I'm hoping that others do start posting honest reviews on how they like/dislike it.

[3DwannaB]

Sorry, but I'm skeptical about a permanent coating. To me... it seems... the HS is kinda like the glue on post it notes. Initially it grips but it starts to weaken and let go. This is what we would want to ensure the object release. If we could get plastic to stick to a sanded, or roughed or etched glass to remove it will make micro breaks in the plastic that seeped into the etched crevices... IOWs it won't be easy to remove... however, when last examined it did not provide the stick needed until the etch was too deep to allow release. The stuff in HS holds the surface of the glass but it cannot bond to it. It does bond to the plastic and as such comes off the glass so in time you need to touch up or re-coat. When put in the freezer or shot with super cold spray either the plastic or the glass changes shape at a faster rate then the other and the HS pulls off the glass releasing the object. 

BTW so far in the past 5 or so months since I have switched to HS/glass I have used ONE can of Aquanet. I am currently on the 2nd can which still feels full.
Regardless... you guys make a better way I WILL buy! and... if you find a better way you should also seek IP protection on it asap!

[AK Eric]

I have a rep1, made my own lexan build plate since I wanted something easily removable.  I was going to go glass, but my research started the same time DHeadrick was posting about this solution, so I figured I'd try that first before I went glass.  I gotta say, it's great for PLA: Print, flex & pop it off.  Print again, flex & pop it off.  Repeat.  No finishing needed other than to scrape off the stuck on bit with a razor blade, and the bottom of the prints are super-smooth.  I've only been using it for about a month now, but I couldn't imaging going back to blue-painters tape.

[Bottleworks]

The coating is not hairspray.  You're welcome to not be interested. 

[Steven Furick]

What precautions do you take to keep the HS away from other parts? 

[James Long]

$13 for a 12"x24" sheet at Home Depot, or $10 for 4 pre-cut 6x12" at TAP Plastics. 

>  No overlay to pull off and twist or whatever then reinstall and re-level the bed.

Not sure what makes you think you'd need to re-level the bed.  You're putting the same plate in the same position with the same clamps each time.  If you had it level before, there's going to be little difference when you put it back (in my experience).

-James

[DHeadrick]

Exactly.  I don't level the bed each time (I can't remember the last time I did).  The process of removing and re-installing the clamps on the EZ-Release surface is so gentle that the leveling is not affected.  In fact, you are more likely to have problems with the plastic tabs that hold the platform in place when removing it.

[3DwannaB]

I will definitely give it a try.

[3DwannaB]

OK I actually found Lexan at the next door Ace HW. .8 per sq ft!

Cut to fit onto my Flashforge... cost $4.65!. I just printed a small gecko and the stick is very good... a bit too good. Getting it off was more work then I expected.  It did not actually pop off as it does with Acrylic or with HS. Instead it gave a little at a time. I will print and print and report back.

[DHeadrick]

What thickness did you buy?  I posted images of the surface condition of one sheet which has been in service for 75hrs in the other thread.  I will do the same with Printer 2 later tonight.

[3DwannaB]

I think it's 4mm.. standard for plate glass which is all Ace carries.

Going on to the 4th print.... and BTW it's not printing hours that tells me something, it's the number of prints... the exact same prints that goes on to the exact same location on the plate that I am curious about.

Acrylic behaved quite a bit different. It does not stick well at all at first and after each time it sticks better and better until it does not come off. This stuff feels different to me. It stuck well right away. We shall see! If it works this way after 2 dozen prints I'll be convinced and will switch from HS. Making an overlay for my Rep2's glass bp will cost just a little more then it did for the Flashforge. Anybody try it with a HBP and ABS??? I'll try that tomorrow.

.

[Steven Furick]

Looks like Lexan / Polycarbonate isn't going to do well as a print surface for ABS. The temperature tolerances are too low. 

Melting temperature (Tm)	155 °C
Glass transition temperature(Tg)	147 °C

[Steven Furick]

If you're willing to give it a try 110 - 115C *should* be fine and I would definitely want to hear your results. The first layer of molten plastic may literally melt to the surface which could cause some serious problems with deforming.

The extrusion temps for PLA and ABS are both higher than the melting point so it might work perfectly. Wouldn't that be nice. 

[DHeadrick]

I know that number of prints is more useful, but the printer doesn't record that (maybe I should post that in the features discussion).  Most of the prints on Printer 1 are about 2-5 hours long so that can give you an idea of how many prints (25 might be a good estimate).

[3DwannaB]

I will give it a shot after I put it though PLA.

I usually run the HBP at 110.

[Steven Furick]

What are you going to do to get a good contact between the plastic sheet and the heat from the build plate? 

I removed my glass plate this morning because I noticed significant heat differences between where it was glued to the heated aluminum and where it was just pressed against it. 

[DHeadrick]

My build surface is only 1/16" (1.6mm) so it's easier to flex to get the parts off.  It also will be different with respect to heat transfer through it from the HBP.

On Monday, 8 July 2013 17:20:54 UTC-4, 3DwannaB wrote:

[3DwannaB]

Clips at the corners. I have extensions I printed in ABS. It should have good contact between the surfaces.

[3DwannaB]

2 days into it and the good: still sticks well and releases ok. The bad, occasionally it sticks too well and the parts have to be chiseled off. Also, the finish wears away and you eventually end up with a rough surface. Addtionally, the surface is not as flat as glass even when clipped all around. You can see the distortion in light reflected off the plate. Glass/HS can be cleaned to a pristine new surface and it stays flat. So IMO lexan seems to work OK for PLA, but I'm still leaning towards glass/HS. ABS is different. The heat form the HBP was starting to make the lexan plate smell so we had to stop the test. We will continue  with the lexan plate on the FF with PLA for now.