Easy and Difficult to print ABS Colours

[Eric Bates]

I was struggling to get anything to print with makerbot's White ABS, there were constant extruder jams. I switched to Red and Ive noticed a huge improvement in reliable printing.

So I wanted to ask what peoples experience are with printing in various colours of ABS (more interested in Makerbot filament, but please any other company is fine too). I'd like to order more colours , but I might choose easier to print colours if theres a common trend.

In my limited experience:

(using 2X and Makerware)

Makerbot White - constant Jams, printing closer to 240 helped a bit but not entirely

Makerbot Red - Seems to print fine at 230, even 0.1mm, very occasionally jams

[Obfuscated]

I've had issues with all of the filament I've gotten from Makerbot. Otherwise no problems with ABS filament I've gotten from vendors on Amazon such as Sainsmart, Zen Tools and Octave.

[Kurt @ Gmail]

Just to add - one of the folks on this list here ALSO Sells Plastic
Filament - and a LOT of the people on the list here have given Great
feedback about the plastic And the Customer support. So - you may want
to check it out as well:
http://toybuilderlabs.com/

-K-

[Joseph Chiu]

It's been my general experience that white ABS (and white PLA) -- the really opaque whites -- generally require significantly higher temperatures.  It's certainly true with the white ABS that we sell - for best results, I run it on my Replicator at 245, while other ABS's in our selection are generally happy at lower temps.  I believe it's due to the high TiO2 content, but I don't know enough details about the chemistry to say with 100% certainty. 

Joseph

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[E. WizardGlick]

 Filament is filament.
After buying our R2 I started researching filament issues.
I discovered that EVERYONE had a differing opinion on what was a crappy supplier, crappy color, so on.
And the MAJORITY disagreed with each other. One would claim Yellow, for example, printed bad while another claimed Yellow printed perfectly for them but Red gave them the shivers.
Keep in mind that each and every printer runs differently. That is manufacturing, no two mass produced products will be exactly alike.
That means what works fine for one person may not be so great for another.
Add to that bias, because x-product behaved poorly on first use then ALL x- product must behave poorly.
And once again we return to manufacturing because there is ABSOLUTELY no guarantee that any two rolls of filament let alone any two lots of filament will be within given tolerance.
Every roll will have a plus or minus tolerance for the complete range of function from size to melting point. Mass production produces variables which include dirt in the product or in the machine and hung over employees doing quality control.
The best you can hope for is to optimize what is being used at present.
Start by using a feeler gauge or something much more accurate to set your nozzle height.
Make sure your build plate isn't warped and that your adhesive of choice, painters tape/kapton tape/slurry/hairspray is working appropriately.
Test print each new color before every print because few take into account things like weather which raises humidity as well as temperature and irritants which adhere to filament. I'm pretty certain that barometric pressure has some type of impact but don't have the skills to check it out. Use something like the 5mm test cube to calibrate.
Other than that try making temp changes to each filament. Maybe attach a small piece of sponge to clean it, or add some oil.
There are literally hundreds of bits and pieces of advice on what to do and what not. Oil is listed as both good and bad, blue tape was used until someone discovered kapton, now slurry and pet tape are the up and comers for adhesion materials.
Overall the most important to learn is how your individual machine handles. Secondly the environment it is kept. Third the ability to filter piles of information when attempting to solve a problem.
As far as filament, just because today's roll works fine doesn't mean the next one will. Manufacturing just does not work that way. Everything in the production chain is vulnerable to flawed creation.
Good luck.
I have yet to raise the temp on any color. Actually make any adjustments at all except changing settings from standard to high.
That is on both our R2 and 2x.
I do find that blue glow in the dark is kind of crappy at times.
We print an assortment of junk with an assortment of colors from a variety of manufacturers.
We did have issues with our 2x from day one. We returned it, Makerbot replaced some parts, and it works fine. Our R2 struggled until we swapped out the replacement extruder. Now no issues.
We adjust with the feeler gauge.
I have started to discover model issues that would print in earlier versions of Makerware but screw up in the most recent. Maybe the newer version, or firmware, isn't as forgiving of flaws as the older ones were.
Our experiences and opinions, take them as you will.

[Eric Bates]

Thanks for all the comments everyone, Ill check out those other sellers. Also, I can see I need to push my temperatures a bit higher, and do some further testing.

[David Clunie]

it seems the whites/naturals that I have all are printing at 235 extruder temp, 110 heated build plate, with a extruder head speed of 50 and travel of 100.  

When I get a new filament in I print out one of these:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:51574 

and then place a sticker as shown but with ALL of the details on the back, e.g., 

Type of plastic (Abs, pla, t-glass, etc.)

Color of Filament (as named by the biz i got it from)

name of biz I got it from

--------------------------------------

extruder temp

heated build plate

extruder speed

travel speed

resolution in microns

infill for the print

shells for the print

and finally the price of the spool

I went through and created sliced versions of the chip model in makerware for each temp range in 5c increments for the extruder / same for the hpb, e.g. 210/70, 215/80, 220/90, 225/100, 230/110, 235/110, 240/110, 245/115, 250/15, 255/115, 260/115

 I used 50 extruder speed/100 travel speed

100 micron

100 infill

1 shell

that way if one doesn't print out "right/smooth" i either go up or down a step.

makes zeroing in on the perfect temp for various colors/maker filaments very speedy and then  you have a future ref.

-dc

[Obfuscated]

After saying filament is filament you pretty much go on to explain how not all filament even from the same vendors is necessarily the same.

For the most part I haven't really had too many problems with ABS in any particular color other than black which some of the rolls I have gotten probably needed to printed at a lower temp.

I will point out that I had noticed that some of the cheaper rolls of white I have gotten like that from Octave printed fine but did not dissolve like I  would expect in acetone.. instead it would just turn into a big blob. Because I was gluing together pieces and sanding them this was an issue for me.

[Joseph Chiu]

I get what you're saying, but I would assert that a different line of product can be measurably different than the next; that different manufacturers have different recipes and methods, and that can yield significantly different products. 

If I substitute pizza for filament, what you're saying goes roughly like this:

Pizza is pizza.

I discovered that everyone had a different opinion on what was a bad pizza make, lousy ingredients, so on.

The majority disagreed with each other. One would claim pepperoni gave them heartburns, while another claimed pepperoni was perfect but olives gave them the hives.

Because Pizza Man pizza was so awful on the first bite, then all Pizza Man pizza must be awful.  

Because Il Fornaio pizza was so wonderful on the first bite, then all Il Fornaio pizza must be wonderful.

There is absolutely no guarantee that any two pizza pies, let alone any two pizzas from different days will be the same.

Every pizza will have a plus or minus tolerance for the amount of dough to the melting point of the cheese.  Mass production produces variables from foreign substances in the pizza or the oven and hung over pizza makers doing bad quality control.

Best you can hope for is to make the most of your dinner with the pizza in front of you.

Just for the record, I can't stand Little Caesar's.  Tried it for a while when I was broke after college.  Il Fornaio's great, but too rich for my taste.  Pizza Hut keeps me happy most of the time, with my favorite being the Supreme.  Dominoe's is ok the few times I've had it, but I've had some really awful Dominioe's over the years.  Once, a friend's Dominoe's was so awful, she called to ask for a refund because it was so awful -- they asked if they made it right (as in correct) -- and it was -- so no refund.    

[Obfuscated]

Yea sure.. that's why I like to order from Amazon Prime or any where that has a generous return policy. How many times would you reorder from the same pizza place if it was bad or if other people told you it was bad? If you have no other option you may keep trying and hey you may be fine with it. Just saying if it's cheaper than there is probably a reason.

My advice is either order a sample or a single roll to test with before buying in bulk if the vendor does not have a generous return policy.

Octave seems to have  good customer support and I was able to print with it.. but when it comes down to it if it doesn't dissolve properly in acetone I don't want it. If I order 1.75 black abs from Makerbot and they charge $40 a roll plus shipping and they send me 1.8mm that I had to wait for...  I'm not going to put up with it and keep taking my chances with them. Although since they are now distributing their filament through Amazon Prime that might solve the delivery time , returns and high shipping charges.

[E. WizardGlick]

Simple answer take a trip to a factory or speak with factory workers. Then you can understand what I'm saying.
Workers fail, machines fail, imagine the individual issues with Makerbots magnified a thousand times.
That is manufacturing.
The uneducated assumption is products are miraculously uniform when they are manufactured.
They are not.
It is one thing to run a home based business where quality control can be checked immediately and standards maintained. because it is limited production.
It is another to mass manufacture products on a national or international scale.
I gather no one bothers to read news stories about product recalls and safety issues.
Do you truly think those problems do not apply to filament manufacture?
It doesn't matter what magic solution goes into the product, what does matter is the entire process down the line.
I've been lucky enough to work in metal shops, wood shops and even a Cummins engine plant.
I've been part of the line making furniture and toolboxes sold nationally.
You have no clue how flawed your products are.
And how much worse they can be.
It ain't pizza, and by the way the pizza analogy is flawed because it fails to take into account different workers on different shifts.

[E. WizardGlick]

Obfuscated

You missed the point that a single roll from a single run is no guarantee that the next roll or job lot will perform exactly the same.
Manufacturing doesn't work that way.
The best one can do is work with the product on hand.
The next may be out of tolerance, or have contaminants, or even wound wrong.
I've recently had rolls that pinched too tightly between loops stopping the filament from moving, and rolls where the filament was under another loop again stopping it.
Those were not from fly by night companies. One came from Makerbot.

[Obfuscated Records]

Uh yeah whatever dude.. that's why I like Amazon prime and their generous return policy.

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ObɟuƧcaʇed яecoʁdƧ

[Joseph Chiu]

> I've recently had rolls that pinched too tightly between loops stopping the filament from moving, and rolls where the filament was under another loop again stopping it.

That sounds like you had a filament end cross under a loop or two.  If you think about how you wind filament, you'd have to out of your way to wind it with a line crossing.   You need to get that crossing out of your spool.

[Eric Bates]

Joseph, that was it! I had no idea I could push the temperature as high as 245C. Once I did this, the Makerbot white printed beautifully! Thanks for that, you've made my day!

I wonder if there are any limits as to how hot you can go?

[Dan Newman]

How about 280C? That's the limit MBI's firmware and Sailfish set on
how high of a temperature you can set. Of course, things might swing
higher.

Dan