Is this technical possible. New 3D Printer BotObjects that can combine 5 PLA colors to produce full color print

[happyman]

I have come across this 3D Printer called BotObjects http://botobjects.com/

It is not yet released and not much information is given out on their technical specifications except some interesting features like full color print from 5 PLA cartridges, self level bed, print resolution of 25micron (0.025mm), dual extruders support dual materials print (PVA and PLA)

Last but not least, the design of machine look so nice (kinda give the feel like Form1 design).

The company is based in New York.

Do you all think if it is technical feasible to mixed 5 PLA filament primary colors to produce the desired color?

[GBR1]

Its two Brits who sound very genuine, had this been launched on the 1st April it would have sounded like a good April fools!!

listen to this.. http://solidsmack.com/fabrication/botobjects-announce-worlds-first-full-color-3d-printer-for-the-desktop/

Basic info from above;

Sounds like June launch

Approx Price; $2300 (to compete with Makerbot, Form labs etc)

build area is 275x275x300mm!

PLA or (ABS mentioned on web site) with PVA on the other extruder apparently!

Print Cartariges like standard printer (guess this is where they will make their $)

Plus above from happyman!

Almost sounds too good to be true but lets wait and see!

I guess this is where we all expected to see 3d printing end up in a few years time

listen to this.. http://solidsmack.com/fabrication/botobjects-announce-worlds-first-full-color-3d-printer-for-the-desktop/

GBR1

[happyman]

It is almost like what I yearn how desktop 3D Printer should be. I believe it will bring about bigger impact than Form1 to 3D printer market if it can deliver as it promises. Another good thing is that it might finally drive Makerbot and other 3D printer manufacturers to really come up with real innovations. The mentioned features even surpass many of low-end to mid end FDM commercial grade 3D Printer (of course if the machine can work well as it claims) at a fraction of the price.

I hope that it will be readily available by June, not another Kickstarter project where the buyers have to wait for half a year or more to get a hand on one.

[GBR1]

I guess the proof will be available soon if they want to start selling/marketing them June they will have to give some demonstrations for reviews etc..

In a funny way the multicolour printing is nice, but I would forgo that just to have all the other listed features and for it to really be a plug and play machine.

As I said above,  I imagined this is where the printers would be in 3-5years or so, hopefully its not another company with good chat an nothing to back it up!

GBR1

[iamloremipsum3d]

wow, i hope this is real.  I would definitely pick one up it if is and proves to be reliable and have good customer support.  

[Laird Popkin]

It certainly looks slick. It has a "too good to be true" feel to it though - they solve critical (and hard to solve) 3d printing challenges, but don't show any prints, just 3d renderings of the case of the printer. But if they pulled it off, it'll be very cool.

But:

- They pack everything into a small package. I don't see how they get power, motors, controllers, and five filament cartridges, etc., all in the small base. But perhaps they're leaving power and cartridges out of the rendering?

- They change colors by feeding different colored pellets into the extruder. That'd work. But doing that with clean transitions between colors/mixtures is 'hard'. I don't see how there wouldn't be a long, gradual transition. Perhaps they automatically feed out the 'extra' off to the side, so the printed transitions are clean? Or perhaps (like analog, NTSC TV) they build the transition time into the system, so color shifts are always gradual horizontally? They don't specify whether by 'full color' they mean able to mix new solid colors (e.g. the handle is 20% red, 80% yellow, the body is blue, etc.), or they can freely color transition throughout the print (e.g. print your head in 3D). I can see how they can do the former, but not the latter. And the latter is the real "magic", because it feels so impossible.

- Auto-leveling print bed. This feels very doable to me, so it's a matter of cost, which I'm guessing is why home 3d printers don't do it now. That is, if you have three motors controlling three mount screws, and a sensor on the extruder head, that'd work, but it'd add quite a bit to the cost/complexity of the printer. Might be worth it, though, in terms of new user accessibility and repeatability.

[Bryon Miller]

Wow, this printer looks great.  I might get one when they come out if this isn't all smoke and mirrors.

[Bryon Miller]

Another deal breaker is if they charge way too much for their plastic like Cube does since they also have a propriatary cartridge that eliminates 3rd party vendors that supply affordable plastic.

[Dan Newman]

On 27 Apr 2013 , at 9:12 AM, Bryon Miller wrote:

> Another deal breaker is if they charge way too much for their plastic like
> Cube does since they also have a propriatary cartridge that eliminates 3rd
> party vendors that supply affordable plastic.

Right now everything appears to be vapor. If they want to be taken
a bit more seriously, they need to produce video of the machine operating
as well as sample prints. A slick but low-information-content website does
not a functioning, commercial product make.

Dan

[Joseph Chiu]

This feels like something design school students put together -- concept, ideation, and presentation.  They say a lot of nice sounding factoids, and generally get the basic facts right (although not always), but zero specifics, or the specifics are very wrong.

These projects often have kernels of good ideas in them, though, and sometimes do turn into real products.  Other times, it stays in the fancy ideas stages.     

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/07/0729_IDEA_awards_students/

The giveaway line for me is "Our industry leading proprietary Self Calibration Software talks to the ProDesk3D, understanding the composition of your uploaded 3D design, and while it auto-sets the printer, it also self calibrates the printer bed. No more tricky software set up!"

Read that carefully.  Does it make sense?  I can find at least two real problems with these claims...

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Whosawhatsis]

On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:27:00 AM UTC-7, Laird Popkin wrote:

It certainly looks slick. It has a "too good to be true" feel to it though - they solve critical (and hard to solve) 3d printing challenges, but don't show any prints, just 3d renderings of the case of the printer. But if they pulled it off, it'll be very cool.

Those aren't even 3d rendering. They're 2d mock-ups with simulated perspective, probably done in Illustrator or possibly Photoshop. 

[TobyCWoods]

They really did talk a mean streak... said all the things a frustrated 3D printer owner would want to hear... That's typically the hallmark of a scam... they say things to you they know you want to hear.

IMO... Based on involvement with commercial products... if it was real they'd be darned quiet about it until they could a. protect it and b.really show it.

[TSDF-3D]

I agree with the skeptical theme. It's vaporware until they show a working unit, and even then until actual users give it good reviews its still just a bunch of good ideas and intentions waiting to be realized.

[JohnD]

They have got at least 4 provisional patents filed in the EU as I understand it - which may/may not mean anything - and are not asking for public funding, as they have a load of private capital already committed.  I can also understand their desire to be ambiguous about how they are doing what they say they are going to do. 

I can easily - however - imagine a roll of "natural" PLA with a CMYK cartridge dye pack attached to the print head metering dye into the filament stream "just in time".  It would be hard but not impossible to calculate the chamber volume and determine how far in advance you wanted to change color, and then pop off to a "dump area" to binge and purge to get the old out.

Proof will be in the product - but it would be just a bit of a game changer...

[whosawhatsis]

They said explicitly in this interview that they are using multiple "cartridges" of colored PLA and mixing it, not adding color to the PLA in the mixing chamber. http://engineervsdesigner.com/67-botobjects-mike-duma-martin-warner/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/makerbot/0ZYQGrNliqY/unsubscribe?hl=en-US.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.

[TobyCWoods]

yeah... but... to do what they say they are doing takes an effort that would have challenged even the largest of the top 10 IT / industrial product manufacturers. Think about what it would take for a self-leveling bed... the sensors and the actuators. Sure it can be done, but the Engineering on it ain't child's play nor is it something that will be cheap to manufacture. Now add to that a conceptually new approach to the extruder... then the fully integrated SW... What about the embedded system for all this? It would have to support all the added stuff... no off the shelf MBs here... and for around the same price as.. hmmm all the best known hobby/prosumer level devices on the mkt today... They made a point of actually dropping their names.

IMO this is a hoax. The pic even looks like a resin based system not FDM... It is meant to manipulate the GOBS of cash getting tossed at this super hyped up thing called 3D Printing. At this rate "3D Printing" will be the big false promise of 2010s.

[JohnD]

I know what they said whosawhatsis - who's to say it's not PLA pigment?  seems easier to mix pigment in, but hey - time will tell - or not.  And I'm not sure I would be sharing the exact "how" of anything I was doing at this point.. :P

[Joseph Chiu]

FWIW, provisional patents don't amount to much except to give them an extra one year window of protection while they get the real patents filed.

Even if they don't have a true patent in the works, if they will be shipping product (versus if it's just pure vapor), a PPA is a cheap way to be able to stamp "patent pending" on your products.  This is even if you do not have defensible IP.  They'd have to make their product during the 1-year PPA period, of course.

[GBR1]

They have a major press launch tomorrow apparently.  I guess they could have "a" with some of the patent pending filed that others have mentioned and maybe they will show it tomorrow!  I cant see getting a load of press to a launch and only having a few pics or cardboard cut outs to show..

It seems like a pretty big effort and pretty ballsy to put your name/rep on the line if they have nothing!?  What would they gain from it other than some press and then bad press?

As I said at the start, this printer is where I thought/hoped the industry would get to in few years and I cant believe nobody else here didn't expect to see this to happen at some point!

I guess we will see if this apparent technical leap is real fairly quickly or if we have to wait a few more years!

GBR1

On Sunday, April 28, 2013 7:15:34 AM UTC+1, TobyCWoods wrote:

[happyman]

The article from website 3D printer world (http://www.3dprinter-world.com/article/botobjects-prodesk3d-too-good-be-true) also expressed some skeptical about this BotObjects. However, the backgrounds check on those listed as the founders seem quite solid according to the website.

After the press was released today, there are still no video or photo of the actual machine. But the website 3D printer world managed to clarify some important aspects as followed;

UPDATE:  BotObjects has just issued a press release that clarifies some of the concerns presented here.  The clarifications are as follows:  Yes, what they were calling a self-calibrating platform means auto-leveling of the build platform.  Additionally, the term, "full color," does not mean full color 3D printing.  BotObjects now explains that the DeskPro3D is able to pull from a full color palette,  allowing you to choose a single color for printing.  While it could be argued that the proper term for such a feature would be "custom color" and not "full color," that clarification alone removes the printer from the probably-not-possible category.  The rest of its features are still amazing, particularly the auto-leveling platform.  We are anxiously awaiting video.

[Tony Sacksteder]

I don't believe you can use "patent pending" with only a provisional application filing. Your Application must be published in order to make that claim. It's a bigger step, and costs more. 

Tony

...via mobile

--

[Tony Sacksteder]

Sounds like a big walk back to "custom color" from "full color" 

Self leveling need not be such a challenge. Only one I/O needed, no servos or additional motors required. 

And if they've locked in a non-standard filament diameter or cassette only refill, they've already made their product obsolete for the low cost consumer grade market.

We can expect more of the same to come as the reality distortion field dissolves as the actual product launch nears. 

Hold your breath for a restyled rep-rap / Makerbot with improved front end software, better support generation and over the top marketing.

Tony

...via mobile

--

[Joseph Chiu]

It turns out you can!  I first learned about this technique from a patent attorney, and it was later reaffirmed to me by a USPTO official at a regional inventor's patent conference.

http://www.uspto.gov/patents/resources/types/provapp.jsp states:

A provisional application for patent is a U.S. national application for patent filed in the USPTO under 35 U.S.C. §111(b). It allows filing without a formal patent claim, oath or declaration, or any information disclosure (prior art) statement. It provides the means to establish an early effective filing date in a later filed non-provisional patent application filed under 35 U.S.C. §111(a). It also allows the term “Patent Pending” to be applied in connection with the description of the invention.

The patent attorney was very adamant that 95% of people he talked to really had no need for patent, and that it was a waste of money to get one.  Instead, just slap a "Patent Pending" on the product (with a PPA filed) and market the heck out of the product during the one year period.  And if anyone asks you what the patent is for, to tell them "we're not telling you. Good luck."

BTW, for anyone that is seriously interested in patents, be sure to look for USPTO's regional conferences.  I got luck - the one a few years ago was practically right in my back yard, was very affordable, and very informative.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.

[Tony Sacksteder]

Thank you, Joe! I stand corrected. Good to know. 

Tony

[iamloremipsum3d]

I had a feeling it wasn't full color.  But Custom color is still pretty great.  Now it seems like much more of a real product.  Just have to see it in action.  I'm most interested in the 25 micron printing, though prints would take forever.  Competition will be fierce.

[TobyCWoods]

YAH! Backpedaling after reading the criticisms! We all see just how close to profitability one has to be to mass produce a device with manual leveling, extruders based on open source, etc...  Add an auto leveling capability... of course it can be done... but then to sell it... along with a completely new closed sourced extruder design... for the same approximate price as a Rep2???   No. These guys are telling us all just what we want to hear. They are from N.Y., home of the phrase; " HEY! Wanna by a watch!". 

[Minestorm]

Their new site launches tomorrow with actual pics of printed samples.

[Joseph Chiu]

You'd think that they would have pulled out the stops to show up and announce at Maker Faire...

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Minestorm <richard.h...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

Their new site launches tomorrow with actual pics of printed samples.

[Jay]

Nothing yet....just checked.

Jay

[Richard]

Have not looked at the pics or website yet, but my view, based on
experience in the computer industry is that Replicators are way
overpriced from what their price/cost could be if they were produced
at volume. You can buy a Chines clone of the Rep 1 for about $1000.
The market is willing to pay over $2000 and at their current volumes,
costs are high than if they were building a 1000 or more per week.

[Jay]

???
Richard...did you post this in the wrong thread? We were talking about BotObjects color mixing 3D printer.....

And the 'chinese' copy is of the Replicator 1 (single and dual) and the TOM (Come! 3D)....I haven't seen a Replicator 2 copy yet. From what I hear they are good copies with better electronics (so no mighty board magic smoke) but they are still as cantankerous as any other printer.

I think I saw the Come!3D on QU-BD for like $699....you have to look for the one that's NOT $120 shipping added though...

Jay

[Richard]

Sounds real to me. Who would go to the trouble of doing this if it
was not real.

[Matthew Stonebraker]

A group of people interested in generating huge amounts of VC and then disappearing off the face of the earth?

[Richard]

Well their website is live and they are taking orders. The price is
over 20% higher than what they were talking about on the web interview
at a starting point of $2800. They have some photos of products that
have been printed. The thing I find hard to believe is that they want
people to order these for delivery in October with no video of a
working machine or verifiable details as far as I can find.

I think I won't be an early adopter.

[TobyCWoods]

uhhh... you serious? Really? What "trouble" did they go to??? They did a ONE page website! The guys involved have ZERO HW development, production and supply experience. The printer described is not technically possible as they have described it. If this is not a scam I will be shocked. Why do it? We'll if you sent them your email I'd bet you will see GOBs of spam!

[Joe Larson (aka Cymon)]

That's full color? That's changing filament halfway through.

And they used my recorder design to sell it. Harumph.

[Joseph Chiu]

I was just going to comment on that... It's like when artists find their songs used at political rallies of the candidate they don't like...

--

[Joe Larson (aka Cymon)]

Well, I released them free to use for anyone so I can't really complain. The thing that bugs me is that it makes me think about the licencing I released them under. I've decided to switch all my stated licences to non-commercial but now I'm doubting whether that was the right choice. I mean if nothing else it's free publicity for me. Get my name out there.

I don't know, what do you guys think. Should I switch my licencing to non-commercial or should I just leave it attribution and be thankful for the coverage?

[Eighty]

It's a plus that they used (and attributed) your print.  Unless you've got some kind of lock on the recorder market, then they would have simply gotten a model elsewhere.  So I'd leave it as you originally had it... 

[Tony Sacksteder]

I'd suggest the " just leave it[sic] attribution and be thankful for the coverage" route.  Its free PR. If they are successful with their product you will benefit. If they turn out to be a hoax or other BS, you will not be harmed,  as their use of your file with proper attribution does not constitute an endorsement on your behalf.

TS

Tony

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/makerbot/0ZYQGrNliqY/unsubscribe?hl=en-US.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.

[Richard]

Leave it attribution.

[Joseph Chiu]

Joe,

I think this is a case where you benefit more from CC-BY-SA than CC-BY-SA-NC.

Joseph

[iamloremipsum3d]

guys this looks potentially pretty awesome, and most likely real (its too small of a market to bother to scam anyone)  and reasonably priced if it delivers on quality and reliability.  The resolution looks great too, but its a little odd they used such a small image to demonstrate that.  I think it might make a great companion printer.  I would consider saving up and to get one.  Does anyone know how many meters of PLA are in a typical 1kg spool?  On their site they say each cartridge will be 180m @ $50.  My fear was they would screw up and over charge for material, but it seems comparable.

[Jay]

Richard..

Can you link to the pics? I just went to website and can't find them and I can't see where ordering/pricing is online either?

Jay

[Richard]

Well I guess my spam blocker is working pretty well.  The only email I have received is that they are open for orders.   As noted above, I won't be preordering one because they have not come close to demonstrating a working machine.  I could produce their examples simply by stopping my Replicator and switching filament multiple times during a build.

I agree that their vitae do not give any confidence about delivering hardware, however, you could outsource all that easily. They claim to have hardware engineers with printer experience on the West Coast and in the UK.

Someone mentioned them wanting to get a lot of attention to get (steal) money from VC's.  No VC will give money without seeing behind the curtain.

What they claim to have done from a hardware point of view and based on their "example" prints does not seem hard.  The color transitions are not distinct which implies they are simply pushing different colored filament into the extruder.  They mention 5 cartridges  perhaps Red, Yellow, Cyan, Black, White and dual extruders. Clearly the second extruder could provide a distinct color change but their sample prints do not show that.  With the replicator approach they would have difficulty feeding 5 different filaments into a head, however with the Bowden tube approach they may be able to feed 5 different filaments into the extruder at once.  One problem with the design which looks beautiful, is where do they have room for 5 cartridges of filament.

Then again, do they actually mention filament or are we all assuming that?  They say FDM, most definitions of FDM refer to filament, but could they be doing this with plastic granules or powder coming out of the cartridges and mixed and melted in a tiny stepper motor driven auger on the printhead before extrusion?  This would still fulfill the basics of FUSED DEPOSITION MODELLING. The cartridges are said to be reloadable which would be easy with plastic powder.

[Eighty]

Wow, 180m for $50.  That's expensive.  A typical spool of 1kg is about 330m for $45.  So...about double the price. 

[Joseph Chiu]

Well, it depends on the diameter of the feedstock. 

For 1.75 mm PLA filament, my calculator shows 330 meters of filament (~2.4 mm^2 cross-section => ~3 g/meter at 1.25 g/cm^2 density of PLA).   

For 3.00 mm PLA filament, about 113 meters of filament.

On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 7:28 AM, iamloremipsum3d <iamlore...@gmail.com> wrote:

guys this looks potentially pretty awesome, and most likely real (its too small of a market to bother to scam anyone)  and reasonably priced if it delivers on quality and reliability.  The resolution looks great too, but its a little odd they used such a small image to demonstrate that.  I think it might make a great companion printer.  I would consider saving up and to get one.  Does anyone know how many meters of PLA are in a typical 1kg spool?  On their site they say each cartridge will be 180m @ $50.  My fear was they would screw up and over charge for material, but it seems comparable.

[JohnD]

You beat me to it.  To the OP who says this is technically impossible, RichRap demo'd a 3 color head a couple of years ago now - so "Full Color" I call BS on, multi-color and some basic blending?  Sound very doable to me. 

I think the firmware would be as interesting as the hardware...

[Richard]

@Jay, my comment about Replicator cost was in reply to someone comparing the proposed BotObject price to that of a Replicator and how they did not think it was possible.  The point I was trying to make, while poorly done, is that the cost of a Replicator does not need to be anywhere close to what they charge and that it is very feasible that BotObject could deliver a more capable printer for price that is competitive with Makerbot's.  In volume, the Replicator 2 parts could be purchased by a company for well under $500, labor cost for assy and testing could be much lower in high volume than how they appear to be doing things at this point.  They are either making lots of profit per computer or the are very inefficient.  GoBot just announced their preorder pricing at $2849 which is $50 more than a Rep 2x.  This seems like a price with a lot of proift built in.

If you look at the price difference between the limited edition blue one and the orange one, you get 4 extra color cartridges and 2 extra support cartridges for an extra $500 which works out to $83/cartridge.  No info on how much you can print with a cartridge.

[Joe Larson (aka Cymon)]

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 7:36:46 AM UTC-6, Eighty wrote:

It's a plus that they used (and attributed) your print.  Unless you've got some kind of lock on the recorder market, then they would have simply gotten a model elsewhere.  So I'd leave it as you originally had it... 

I do have a lock on recorders that actually work off the 3D printer. So.. there's that.

The thing that urks me about this project is that they promised full color prints and PVA support. Now they're demoing prints (still no machine, hmmm) and all they're showing is switching filament mid-print and... no PVA whatsoever. For the first that's not full color. Just because it has color does not make it full color. I can get this effect if I change filament or make a cheap filament joiner like http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:12382. They claim to be doing this on the fly, but I still don't see it. When I see full color I want full color sad keanu (http://www.shapeways.com/model/364717/a-little-sad-keanu-reeves.html) coming out of my printer. For the second, if they're feeding PVA through the same nozzle then they're just mixing it. Man, I can't imagine the effect that would have after disolving.

All I see is smoke and... yup, over there I think is a mirror. 

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:16:06 AM UTC-6, JohnD wrote:

You beat me to it.  To the OP who says this is technically impossible, RichRap demo'd a 3 color head a couple of years ago now - so "Full Color" I call BS on, multi-color and some basic blending?  Sound very doable to me. 

No, RichRap demoed 3 colors going through the same nozzle, but not being blended. He hypothesized that it could be done if you had some sort of mixing obstruction in the nozzle but no one has demonstrated this yet, not even BotObjects. Again, they haven't shown their machine and their supposed color prints could just as easily been a filament joiner. Make a cheap filament joiner, make a striped print on a RepRap, make up a fiction about your imaginary printer that will save the world, raise venture capital, head for Jamaica. Prove to me that this is not the case.

[Joe Larson (aka Cymon)]

Makerbot is also spending a ton on RD and support. Yes you could bring the price down if you're willing to fly by night, but Makerbot isn't playing that game.

Now maybe they're making a solid profit. After all, they're likely charging just as much as the market will bear and good on them for it. But I don't see Bre retiring to his own private Pacific island any time soon. If nothing else he's got some Angel capitalists to pay back first.

You know, a new car could be sold for a lot less than it is. So could Nike shoes. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism and marketing. That may be upsetting to the DIYer and I get that, but don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Eighty]

Their website stated that the filament is 1.75.  So the "double the price" statement appears to hold true.

 

I am actually "tentatively" impressed with the prints they posted online.  I was under the impression that you'd get one (single) custom color.  Their prints demonstrate that the colors can change mid-print, albeit very gradually.  If you look at the flower vase or the robot, it's clear that they can gradually go from one color to another.  That is more than I was expecting.  I'd be interested to see how fast a transition could be made, if desired.  For example, going from red to yellow.  Could this take place within a couple cm of extrusion, or are we talking a couple of meters?

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not exactly plunking any money down on the table here... 

[Joseph Chiu]

Well, even if there is a lag time associated with a color change, a crisp color change would be possible by extruding into a waste bucket at color transitions.

[Richard]

Pricing:  http://botobjects.com/prices

Pics: http://botobjects.com/latest-updates

[Tony Sacksteder]

I looked closely at the sample images on the website - and though I'm no forensic analyst,  my take is that those images are 'shopped:

a) they have been very obviously smoothed - no consistent indication of build layers

b) the gradients have been blended - in fact they seem to follow the picture plane better than the contour of the part.

c) the robot foot shows  evidence of re-touching not attributable to compression artifacts elsewhere in the image.

Tony

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/makerbot/0ZYQGrNliqY/unsubscribe?hl=en-US.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.

[Richard]

Depending on what you use for Specific gravity, it is over 300 mm for a 1kg, 1.75mm spool.  I got 335+.

Here is a link to my calculator, you can change price, SG, weight, diameter, etc to get material cost per cubic cm and per meter.  I think I got it set up so you can change the variables in green.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsZCdI6jBvXZdG14Szg1bHR0N0FkNTFnXzNfVlF5eWc&usp=sharing

So if the price is $50, they are charging at least twice what Makerbot does.  My calculation based on price difference between special addition and regular was $83 per cartridge, which is way higher.

[Richard]

Ummm....anyone have a credit card they want to loan me?  I thought Makerbot charging my card 8 weeks before I got my printer was a problem, no way I will pay almost $3,000 for something over 4 months before it is "planned" to ship, especially something that has not been publically demo'd or released.  I still think it is real, but I don't like this "funding model".  They would not even make it on Kickstarter without demoing something.

I think they left off....AND WAIT, THERE'S MORE.  CALL WITHIN THE NEXT 10 MINUTES AND YOU WILL RECEIVE NOT ONE BUT TWO INSTRUCTION MANUALS, REMEMBER, THIS OFFER WILL NOT LAST!

"Dear Richard

 

WE ARE PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THAT WE ARE OPEN FOR TELEPHONE EARLY ORDERS - 

BE ONE OF THE FIRST TO OWN A PRODESK3D!

 

We are delighted to announce that we are open for telephone orders.  Should you wish to place an early order for the ProDesk3D please click on this link and a sales representative will call you back within one hour to process your order.  [US hours of operation - 8.00am - 6.00pm EST and UK hours of operation - 8.00am - 6.00pm DST].

 

Please note that we have released the NEW ProDesk3D Blue - our limited edition color for the ProDesk3D - please click here to see it. The ProDesk3D Blue is subject to limited stock.

 

Please note that all prices and other customer released information are on our website [http://botObjects.com], and shipping costs, depending on country, will be given to you on our call back to confirm details.  

 

First shipments of the ProDesk3D and ProDesk3D Blue are planned to ship 1st October 2013.  The second shipment timeframe will be confirmed shortly.  For all customers wanting to guarantee earliest delivery from 1st October 2013 shipment should order quickly.

 

We look forward to you receiving your own ProDesk3D soon!

 

Kind regards,

 

the botObjects team

[Jay]

Beat me to it Joe. I am on other boards with whole other kinds of products but there's always a group that says "..but...but...I can buy the parts for $XX and those nasty people are selling them for $XXXX.."

I don't get it...I'm in business (like I assume most of us are)...and whether I was selling Condoms or Industrial Parts...I'm in business to make money. I've literally had people tell me "Well, I can buy 2" Acetal for $18/foot....why is this 4" long bushing going to cost $67? I can make it in my garage in 20 minutes!!.." That's usually when I tell them I'll sell them the foot of material but could they send me pics of the part when they're done. 90% I never get a pic or hear back. The ones that do send a pic it's obvious they used a Dremel...and they'll usually send a snotty message like "See? 15 minutes sitting in my Lazyboy...You guys are thieves!".....whatever...

Just like on here when they smash MBI. So? Don't flipping buy from them...jeez.

Or better yet (for all of us died-in-the-wool American Capitalists) design your own and make you own bath tub full of cash....just don't get mad when someone else does it...(or jealous?)

Now...back to making me money.... :)

Jay

[Jay]

Thanks!

[Matthew Stonebraker]

That was my fear before, now I'm pretty sure the plan is to rake in several hundred thousand dollars in pre-orders and then up and disappear. Has anyone confirmed that Mike Duma & Martin Warner are their legal names?

[Richard]

Sorry, not trying to bash MBI just wish they didn't charge the card up front when they had an 8 week lead time last year. That's their current business model, and I wanted the printer so I paid it and waited and am very happy with my Replicator.  This new BotObj printer, on the other hand, I can not imagine plunking down $3000 for it 4+ months before it is promised to ship and with no demo. If someone wants to do that, fine.   We'll see what they come out with June 1.

My point on the cost of materials on the Replicator is not that they MBI should not be charging what they are, it was that there is likely room between the cost of materials, labor, and overhead, especially as the volume goes up to allow this new company to deliver potentially more capabilities for a similar price (assuming they actually deliver).  My guess is that the BotObject, from looking at the photos and hearing the description will have a similar material cost profile to the Replicators.  BotObject  is in the same ballpark as their competitors, MBI, Formlabs, and the 3DS CubeX Duo that are in this "Prosumer" space.

[Jay]

I would put Formlabs out in front. I'm not a fan of the UV resins but some of the sample prints are flipping awesome. Incredible detail (.02?) with no warping, cracking, or threading. Speaking of that there's a cat on Ebay who has a kit (add your own DLP) for $700. That's almost doable but no wash station or cleaning kit comes with it.

As far as fully assembled bots...not kits. All things being equal they all get they're nickel. Last time I checked an assembled Ultimaker was almost the same price and was 3-5 weeks delivery after payment. Even the crayon like Printbot Jr. is 3 weeks delivery after order per website. I, like you, look askance at anyone who wants me to pay up front for something they have to go build. Of course, lot's of general contractors get 20%-40% up front before ordering materials. At least you can outside and see your cement forms, shingles, castle blocks, piles of dirt..etc.

Also it's all about volume...one of my first personal laptops cost over $3700 (Gateway!)...now you can get a decent one for under $300. So who knows? HP or Canon may release one next week for $500....THEN watch what happens. Printbot has this new super inexpensive one they are offering (sold out for now) at $249 bucks....I think Toby ordered one...this time next year we may all be complaining our HP Design3D (TM) printer is crap because it won't print consistently at .005 layer (I wish!)....

And I wasn't bashing you for bashing MBI...er...anyway. I really did wonder why you put it up because I was following the thread. Interested in a full color printer for parts at work...L~O~V~E the Objet (260?) that I got to watch being demo'd...they can vary the durometer of their material by the exposure to UV...squishy soft to brick hard...THAT'S cool. Like the other lower end pro units the consumables are high and proprietary though.

My Replicator's aren't perfect (no where near depending on who asks) but they do what I want them to...(and I get to write them off on taxes)....and filament's cheap.

Jay

[bjGKlist]

IMAGINE being a globe-trotting paleontologist, on an exciting dig, uncovering a previously unknown cache of dinosaur fossils. How will you identify what species you found, or how they fit together? In Capturing Dinosaurs you will learn how, going behind-the-scenes into the Museum's Big Bones room and using the latest 3D capturing, modeling, and printing technology to build your own dinosaur model.

This summer the American Museum of Natural History, for the first time, is offering a comparative skeletal anatomy program - Capturing Dinosaurs: Reconstructing Extinct Species Through Digital Fabrication - using digital fabrication with a specific focus on dinosaur fossils. Educational comparative anatomy programs teach youth about mechanisms of evolution, shared and derived traits, adaptations to the environment, and about the organisms themselves. The recent emergence of the next generation of digital fabrication tools - for digitally capturing, digitally modeling, and physically printing a subject - bring comparative anatomy to life by engaging youth around the topic and teaching them how to interpret and visualize evolutionary principles.

FOR HIGH SCHOOL YOUTH

Logistics:

$1,100 for two weeks ($1,050 for members). Full fee waivers available (based on need.)

Schedule: 10 day program - M-F, July 8-12, 15-19 9:30AM - 4PM

Register here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/H6VHB9H

More information can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/CapturingDinosaursAMNH

[Jay]

bjGKlist,

Strange...I got two emailed surveys today from surveymonkey. One was on E2 Shop software and the other one was on some Cisco routers we purchased a year ago...now I see them in this post...

Jay

[TobyCWoods]

I cannot believe there are people who really think botobjects is real. Maybe next Botobjects should state that their printer will print a full sized model of the Brooklyn Bridge!

Making commercial stuff ain't easy. It takes much more resources and skill then what any of the 3D printing companies have including MBI. You cannot just go out and hire an Engineer and have it all done for you. NONSENSE. IF Botobjects has anything I would bet they back pedal again and again and again before we actually SEE it.

On Friday, April 26, 2013 11:40:19 PM UTC-7, happyman wrote:

I have come across this 3D Printer called BotObjects http://botobjects.com/

It is not yet released and not much information is given out on their technical specifications except some interesting features like full color print from 5 PLA cartridges, self level bed, print resolution of 25micron (0.025mm), dual extruders support dual materials print (PVA and PLA)

Last but not least, the design of machine look so nice (kinda give the feel like Form1 design).

The company is based in New York.

Do you all think if it is technical feasible to mixed 5 PLA filament primary colors to produce the desired color?

[JohnD]

Toby - I'm skeptical of botobjects, but obviously for different reasons that you.  You seem to think automatic color switching with a 5 color pallet is technically impossible or at least overwhelmingly difficult? 

[TobyCWoods]

It is soooo much more then simply 1 obviously not possible feature.

[Jay]

John + Toby...

Stupid question...Is color mixing possible? I tried (very crudely) melting and mixing two colors in both PLA and ABS...and of course it didn't work. You can 'melt' ABS with acetone and get a colored slurry though......but all my attempts looked like finger painting chimpanzees doing acid...

Has there been anyone who has gotten something to function correctly?

Jay

[Matthew Stonebraker]

I saw a Reprap thread several months ago about a guy who was basically taking two 1.75 filament spools of different colors and feeding them into his 3mm extruder. I don't remember all the results, but I think he classified it as a total failure.

[Joseph Chiu]

Not quite there, but this was one of the early attempts that I saw - I think the basic idea is that it's possible, but requires some bit of work -- http://richrap.blogspot.com/2012/08/3-way-quick-fit-extruder-and-colour.html?m=1

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.

[Jetguy]

I think the trick required is a mixing nozzle. Specifically, a longer
melt zone that has rifling and twists the molten mass. Others who have
tried the 2 into 1 technique with normal systems have said that you
get a unique output thread where some blending happen but really it's
just striped thread most of the time. Introducing a spiral twist in
the melt zone may encourage mixing. The flipside here is the required
longer melt zone and thus the only way for a clean color change is
frequent and lengthy purges. On some prints, even in the same layer,
that could be a lot of movement and purging.

The biggest problem I see in any design is our basic function of the
extruder. We use filament and force it while cool and rigid via
mechanical roller pinch wheel systems. Pretty much the accepted
"norm". Ok, so you have this melt zone and then exit out of the
nozzle. It takes huge pressure to extruder the plastic. Hundreds if
not thousands of PSI. The see, that's the factor people forget. Pounds
Per Square inch. 1.75mm filament is pi*(R squared) or 2.405mm square
surface. There is 25.4mm per inch and that squared is 645.16mm
squared, then divided by 2.405mm squared is 268.258:1 In other
words, if we push on the 1.75mm filament with 1 pound of force, that
is 268 pounds per square inch. 1000 PSI would not be unrealisitic. The
point is, if you have a melt zone with 2 or more input openings, all
are subjected to 1000 PSI or more trying to push molten plastic out.
basically, what is needed is a valve systems of pre molten plastic of
each of the colors. http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?14,13853
More and even a hand drawing here http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?171,40341,40341


BTW, some nice oldschool pics in this thread
http://richrap.blogspot.com/2012/06/jammed-frggn-nozzle-30doc-days-1518.html





On May 24, 10:32 am, Matthew Stonebraker <stonebrak...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[JohnD]

So I'm not that far from RichRap - both physically and experimentation wise.  I've managed to do the same, but using a cam driven bowden setup to feed 4 colors.  My experience married Rich's - it's pretty trivial to "blend" colors, and pretty damned impossible to "mix" them.  I also followed James' thesis work last year with interest, as he was much more successful in chasing "mixing" colors.

I got very good results with blended color prints, either by choosing the color manually, or by hacking my firmware to support a tool change that effectively selected a different filament drive.  I briefly experimented with "sharper" color changes by using post processing script to try and purge one color before actually printing wit the next.  Mixed (literally) results, and every once in a while it would work well enough to make me excited, but then the next color would take "longer" to purge and I'd end up with a ugly layer or two....

I think me next experiment would be going back to a dual extruder design and a dual filament per extruder design -  this would better support the end goal I think, but it will still require some serious work on the software side...

For those interested, James' work is found here http://www.reprap.org/mediawiki/images/0/05/RepRapColourMixingReport-jmc.pdf

[Jay]

John - Jetguy...

What about a mechanical mixing chamber with it's own extruder screw? What I wanted to illustrate is the screw extrusion area and how it functions for mixing. Now the ones we've used are Winnebago sized....but I do know of and have seen table top versions in the Resins lab. Not only that but if you had an active screw feed/mixing chamber you could drive the filament with Bowden drives...since the mixing screw would then pull the filament in, mix, then force it out through die.

Here's the blurb off wiki about compounding and mixing in an extruder (again OVER simplified)

Compound extrusions

Compounding extrusion is a process that mixes one or more polymers with additives to give plastic compounds. The feeds may be pellets, powder and/or liquids, but the product is usually in pellet form, to be used in other plastic-forming processes such as extrusion and injection molding. Machine size varies from tiny lab machines to the biggest extruders in the industry, running as much as 20 tons per hour, as used by the chemical companies that make the base resins. Usually twin-screw extruders are preferred because they give better mixing at lower melt temperatures. Most of these have screws and barrels made up of smaller segments (mixing, conveying, venting and additive feeding) so that the design can be changed to meet the production and product needs. Single-screw extruders can be used for compounding as well, especially with appropriate screw design and static mixers after the screw. Selection of the components to be mixed (viscosities, additive carriers) is as important as the equipment.

[Jay]

Duh...but that would still leave the purging and color change (pays to fully read the quoted articles)....that's the stopping point right? How to quickly (enough) switch or blend the colors without having to do a long purge.

Hmmm...I do know there's a collar on thingiverse that holds 3 sharpy markers...it's intended to 'color' your natural filament as it goes into the head...I don't know if it works. Seems to be too simple. What about instead of mixing 3 filaments you had some kind of die that could be metered? Maybe rig up a direct injection system to the head (ala inkjet). You'd have to use white as the base filament and inject it directly. Since the die would only be injected as needed and right at extrusion point it would limit the amount of colored material you would need to purge?

Just spit balling here...

Jay

[JohnD]

Jay - when I first saw the press release, I was convinced that was how they were going to  pulled it off - Natural filament and die pigments. This still seems to me to be a viable option - it does not answer the binge and purge problem, but it does make life simpler...

From what I've read, however, "properly" coloring PLA filament - and I assume ABS as well - requires completely melting and blending the material...

[Richard]

Looks like they are taking the same approach as Makerbot at this
time. No agency approvals (or even testing). No liability for damage
or loss of income beyond the cost of the printer. No guarantee on the
electronic parts, etc. My experience with Makerbot is that they have
made good on the two issues I brought to them at no cost to me. They
are doing the right thing, it will be interesting to see what BO does
if they actually deliver the product.

THIS IS FROM THE FINE PRINT ON THEIR WEBSITE AT THE BOTTOM:
9. Guarantees and liability
9.1. botObjects sees it as a duty to deliver valuable products.
However, all of the products and services botObjects offers are
experimental and intended for the “maker” community. These products
are not tested by independent laboratories and should only be used by
people who understand the risks. The products offered can be used to
make machines of which nor the performance nor proper or safe
operation can be guaranteed, as they are the sole responsibility of
the experimenter that applies these products in their projects.
Assembly instructions are only partly provided by botObjects and may
include contributions made by third parties. botObjects cannot take
responsibility for the safe nor proper execution of these assembly
steps, nor does botObjects accept responsibility of the functioning of
the resulting assembly.

9.2. botObjects is never bound to financially compensate the buyer or
other parties, unless the damage was caused by intention or guilt.
botObjects is not liable for any indirect loss or damage incurred or
damage regarding loss of income or profit.

9.3. In case botObjects is obliged to financially compensate the
buyer, the amount will always be limited to the invoice amount related
to the product and/or service that caused the damage.

9.4. botObjects does not give any guarantee on electronical parts.

9.5. The guarantee of botObjects does not apply if:
- the defects are (partly) the result of normal wear, injudicious or
incorrect handling or use, injudicious or incorrect maintenance;
- the product is employed for purposes other than normal purposes or
used incorrectly;
- the buyer or the end user does not strictly observe the operating
instructions provided by botObjects;
- the original invoice is missing, modified, or made unreadable.

9.6. When guarantee provisions are exercised, botObjects can do the
following:
- adjust the amount on the invoice;
- replace the delivered item by an article with equal specifications,
or repair the delivered item, in which case the delivered item should
be sent back to botObjects
- take back the delivered item and revoke the agreement, while
reimbursing the paid amount by the buyer, without being obliged to
financially compensate the buyer for any damage. The buyer is obliged
to give botObjects three (3) possibilities to repair any deficiencies.

9.7. The buyer does not hold botObjects liable for any claims
resulting from third parties, unless the law strictly prohibits such
damages and costs to be accounted to the buyer.

9.8. It is possible that botObjects places links on its website to
other websites that could be of interest for a visitor. Such links are
solely informative. botObjects is not liable for the content of the
linked websites or the usage thereof.

[TobyCWoods]

The issue of color printing is already moot with this vaporware. They have already backpedaled and restated what their product will do and it ain't true multicolor printing. It's simply color changing per layers.

These guys look fake for WAY more reasons then this!

[Jay]

Yeah...any printer that can do a pause--->filament change could be a 'full color' printer by their definition. Or...if you had the ability to butt-weld the filament you could sell it as "Multi-color" filament? Seems a little 'janky' to me too Toby....

To go back to the 'sharpy' thing...anyone tried that? If you have...has it worked or did the heat change the color?

Jay

[Jay]

Jetguy,

Here's one on the RerRap boards.http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?2,170354,page=2..look towards the bottom at the pics. From what I can see he got the color blending (somewhat) and it looks like a fairly quick and short transition. Even if you had to do a 'purge move' this seems short enough it would actually take less time than the 2X does in just switching heads.

What do you think? You have some serious experience with 'roll your own' printers (and jet engines!!)

[Joe Larson (aka Cymon)]

I tried the sharpie thing recently:

http://joesmakerbot.blogspot.com/2013/05/coloring-filament-with-markers.html

More experiments to come... eventually.

[GBR1]

I wondered if it was more along these lines;

http://richrap.blogspot.co.uk/

They could have come up with a way to do this on the fly which would work pretty well..

But then I read this;

http://www.techhive.com/article/2039703/how-does-the-world-s-first-full-color-3d-printer-work-we-ask-its-creators.html

The main point for this discussion being;

First off, an answer to the burning question: How does the ProDesk3D pull off its full-color 3D-printing process? According to botObjects, it's all in the mixing chamber. The printer injects five colors of PLA (Polylactic Acid) plastic—cyan, magenta, yellow, black, and white—into a mixing chamber at different proportions to create a wide array of colors. Once the colored plastic runs through the mixing chamber, it's released through one of the printer's dual extruding heads, while the other head extrudes the PVA scaffolding material that supports your model as it prints.

So I am the glass is half full kinda guy and before they started asking for money I thought it could be a data gathering thing, nowadays its way to hard to take peoples money (have they, do we know anyone who has given them anything yet?) and hide it..

GBR1

[Joe Larson (aka Cymon)]

Their mixing chamber story is still unseen and even if it works the way they promise they can't do anything more than different colored layers, and even then blended. No hope of actual "full color" beyond what you could do with changing filaments. And their PVA promise is still entirely unsubstantiated with their demo prints. PVA is notably fiddly.

Even if what they say is true, that they can mix PLA in the chamber with different feeds, then why is their only evidence some obviously shopped photos?

[TobyCWoods]

Simple... they use a wonderful plastic mixing system in a very special chamber designed by their carefully hired Engineers... :-p.

[isaac]

Potentially appropriate given the circumstances; the message, not the political views --  FDR on "Claims" VIDEO

[Minestorm]

Been getting this all day when I try to get to their page -

An Error Was Encountered [ 500 ]

Unable to locate the model you have specified: enquiries_m

[Minestorm]

Just pulled this from their Twitter feed -

http://www.mobypicture.com/user/botObjects/view/15392103/sizes/full

It's printed at 25 micron.

[Darrell jan]

That's a nice print. But that didn't require any color mixing.

[Minestorm]

http://botobjects.com/latest-updates#video

 

Doesn't show much of the printer though.

 

[Obfuscated]

Also they appear to be writing their own software and they mention that it's 32 bit.. so if you want to print large at .025 you'll probably have to slice it elsewhere.

[JohnD]

Guess that sorta depends on how efficent they are at coding.  In any event, come October, I suspect Bre will be checking his sales commitments to he new overlords.  If BotObjects *does* deliver, it's gonna be interesting time for MakerBot.

Someone check my math, but at .025mm layers, assuming an average of 170mm/s, you are looking at an 18 hour print @ 114mm for that vase, or 2 hours 30 for it at .2mm - which I think is about the same for a .27mm print on a 2x.

[Obfuscated Records]

Well hopefully more efficient than Makerware.. which is to say that I'm not going to hold my breath.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "MakerBot Operators" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/makerbot/0ZYQGrNliqY/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--

ObɟuƧcaʇed яecoʁdƧ