Blind Motors

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Aaron

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Jan 7, 2019, 5:16:20 PM1/7/19
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I read a couple of old threads but wondered if anyone had recently had any success with blind motors from the cheaper end of the spectrum?

Amazon and eBay have tube motors starting at £30-40. Anyone tried them? One advertises as being TUV approved...

I've got plenty of relay outputs for both up and down at 230v but is there any advantage of 12/24v except for less cable as the polarity can be reversed?

Any thoughts and advice most welcome!

thanks

David Wallis

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Jan 7, 2019, 5:53:34 PM1/7/19
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interested
From: loxone-...@googlegroups.com <loxone-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Aaron <aa...@necto.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2019 10:16:20 PM
To: Loxone English
Subject: Blind Motors
 
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Duncan

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Jan 7, 2019, 5:58:57 PM1/7/19
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theres a trade company in wales called decorquip and could put you in touch with a reseller.

they have very affordable motorised blinds with various options including low voltage, battery and mains and they do made-to-measure or components.

they are very affordable and have 240v Voluto motors that include both radio control and volt-free contacts that work well with loxone therefore no need to worry about the interlock functionality. They are slightly more expensive at around £75-85 per motor, but they do have the remote control and volt-free control without having to deal with the 240v interlock problem.

ive used them quite a lot and use cheap low power dmx relays to control the volt-free contacts over cat5 cable, with the motors having a permanent 240v supply.

Aaron

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Jan 9, 2019, 12:33:55 AM1/9/19
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Thanks Duncan, much appreciate your advice. Please excuse my ignorance but what is the '240v interlock problem please'? A quick google didn't come up with any suggestions.

May I also ask what voltage you are using for the signal? Presumably something low voltage and provided by something from AliExpress?

cheers

Aaron

David Wallis

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Jan 9, 2019, 6:00:55 AM1/9/19
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One would assume driving both up and down windings on the motor with 230v at the same time. 

Duncan

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Jan 9, 2019, 11:18:50 AM1/9/19
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Yes the interlock problem is where you directly power the motor eg via relays and you have to be careful you can’t drive them up and down at the same time which shorts out your mains/power supply

The volt free input isn’t driven by a voltage, it’s a pair of signal wires which require connecting together to trigger a movement, this would be via a relay from Loxone, dmx or Knx. I tried to get a schematic to see if they can be voltage driven but no luck

Seb

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Jun 29, 2020, 1:47:47 PM6/29/20
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Hi, just re-opening this conversation. I am looking at blind control for a Somfy 30 [1]. For each blind I will need 3 relays that basically touch the common and direction contact from the motor. Rather than using a Loxone relay are there other reliable relays for this? With 11 blinds about to go in and more to follow it will start getting expensive!

Also has anyone hooked Loxone up to the Somfy RTS or RS485 controllers?

[1] https://service.somfy.com/downloads/nam_v4/sonesse30_dct_-_d-0104.pdf

Duncan

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Jun 29, 2020, 2:51:24 PM6/29/20
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my blind motors have a similar setup - needs 3 relays for up/down/stop to a common so im using some 12v 12ch dmx relays like this:
 

in theory you can control somfy via the klf200 which now has an api apparently
https://www.loxforum.com/forum/hardware-zubeh%C3%B6r-sensorik/171217-velux-klf200-endlich-mit-api  (read/translate using chrome) but it doesnt look easy or cheap when including the klf200 and loxberry, i suggest sticking to real relays of whatever cheapest flavour you can buy

i looked at network relays, knx outputs, arduino plug relay board etc and dmx is by far the best combination of cheap/simple/ready-built

Seb

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Jun 29, 2020, 6:34:32 PM6/29/20
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Thanks, I don't want to go too custom so the DMX relay would be a good option here - how reliable are they?

As they will be powered by a PSU near the blind, I assume the -'ve from that PSU will need to be pulled back to the Loxone cabinet? As that is what Loxone recommend on the old DMX RGBW dimmer [1], but in this situation, the motor is the equivalent of the RGBW dimmer.


[1] https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/wiring-accessories/#CONNECTING%20SEVERAL%20DMX%20DIMMERS

Duncan

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Jun 29, 2020, 6:41:01 PM6/29/20
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ive been running quite a number for 4-5years and not had a failure yet...

you shouldnt need to link the psu grounds of the psu, just the dmx cable between which carries its own dmx reference ground - usually a cat5/6/7 cable

ive got plenty of distributed dmx dimmers and relays with their own local PSUs with only the dmx cable linking them and they work reliably

Message has been deleted

Seb

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Jun 30, 2020, 5:00:02 PM6/30/20
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Good to know thank you.

Out of interest how long can the wire be between the DMX controller in the cabinet and a DMX device somewhere in the house be? Also do all DMX the devices need to be in series or can you branch / use a star schema?

AaronP

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Jun 30, 2020, 5:15:35 PM6/30/20
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We purchased some spare remotes then soldered directly to the remote to trigger the up/down actions etc as though you were performing a function from the remote itself, works seamlessly for us on the Somfys. Ping me a message if you’d like some more info/pics

Duncan

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Jun 30, 2020, 5:47:38 PM6/30/20
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a single dmx cable can be 1000m in theory so plenty

by default, a single dmx universe (upto 512 devices in a single series chain) should be a single daisychain, but there are easily and cheaply available splitter/repeaters, which enable you to create branches 

each branch has a signal amplifier/conditioner and protects the other branches from shorts etc, so its not a bad idea to use a splitter / repeater if you have a complex install

you can  daisychain splitters as well...

i have 2 dmx universes (i.e. separate dmx chains) each with their own dmx extension (although one of mine is a udp to dmx bridge rather than loxone extension) and each one has a splitter repeater

the outside one splits each of the 6 external cables on a separate branch so any mechanical/water damage to a cable leaves all the other branches intact and working
the inside one splits according to geographic layout of the house in a sort of daisy chain back to the central wiring point where its on the loxone link

Duncan

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Jun 30, 2020, 6:52:22 PM6/30/20
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you cant use a solid state device to short together your blind wires unfortunately without knowing how their internal electronics works, you just have to use a real relay

as to the device for dmx strip/led control, it should be ok - same device here but cheaper:

and din rail mount version


Joth

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Jul 1, 2020, 2:48:24 AM7/1/20
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On the topic you don't happen to know of a good value dmx relay board that is din rail mounted?
I've ordered one of these, and it's 12ch big brother, they look like they're intended for use in a din rail box but I've not yet sourced one quite large enough and certainly not with the screw mounts in the exact right locations
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32445256833.html

Steven Van Gysel

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Jul 1, 2020, 3:29:12 AM7/1/20
to Duncan, Loxone English
Hi

I followed the advise on this blog: https://smarthome.exposed/24v-dmx-dimmers/

It is working flawlessly and I got rid of all my loose (2) dmx decoders and got them mounted.
Now I can start with extending dmx controlled led strips and experiment with the daylight harvesting feature of the latest Loxone release.

Steven

Op wo 1 jul. 2020 om 00:52 schreef Duncan <joanne...@gmail.com>:
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Stickytricks

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Jul 1, 2020, 6:25:11 AM7/1/20
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I have used somfy rts and two relays and a touch switch to achieve full blind control including stopping midway.

David Wallis

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Jul 1, 2020, 6:48:05 AM7/1/20
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I do wonder if a DMX H bridge board  would be useful for this sort of thing,.

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Duncan

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Jul 1, 2020, 3:03:07 PM7/1/20
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ive used these a few times:

compact and din rail mount, used to be reasonably cheap but now a round £280 per piece

ive not found anything else thats as small/din, however you could use a din-rail 24ch dimmer line:

with outputs linked to a din-rail relay unit:



or to be very compact a load of these stacked together driven by the dmx dim

or something similar and set the dmx outputs so that a 1 input has a 100 (ie fully on) output

Seb

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Jul 1, 2020, 3:44:33 PM7/1/20
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What was your Somfy setup? Did you have the RTS controller and the RS485 controller?

Seb

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Jul 1, 2020, 5:38:25 PM7/1/20
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Duncan, how do you know that [1] is solid state, I cant see that anywhere on the spec (but thank you!)?

By any chance do you know if you can put 24v into [2] instead of 12v? or have you seen a cheap 24v relay block? I ask as the blinds are 24v and hence I will have a 24v PSU near them and the DMX relay, would rather not have to also get a 12v on as well.


[1] https://www.makers-hut.com/product/ws24lu3a-24ch-dmx-controller-dmx-512-decoder-rgb-led-strip-module-dump-node-24x3a-ws24lu3a
[2] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33004228465.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.14356450SbaNPr&algo_pvid=d3f9fbbc-bf3c-430e-8be3-bf244fb8be08&algo_expid=d3f9fbbc-bf3c-430e-8be3-bf244fb8be08-28&btsid=0b0a0ad815934556037118500ee53f&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

Duncan

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Jul 1, 2020, 6:06:37 PM7/1/20
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[1] is a dmx dimmer that will use a transistor (solid state) with high frequency pwm switching of the output to 0v, the other end of the leds attaches to the common anode +v - this is extremely unlikely to work with your blinds input that requires 2 inputs to be shorted together and is likely to damage the electronics if you try

[2]  the relays are probably rated 12v inside and may last with 24v, but not likely forever, ive not tried it though so you can always try and se....

might be better off trying to find a proper 24v version

are these components going to be din rail mounted? how many channels do you need in each location?

Arnaud

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Jul 2, 2020, 3:56:34 AM7/2/20
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Forgive my ignorance, but I would like to understand the interest of controlling blinds motors with DMX instead of a Nano IO powered in 24v ?

Jonathan Dixon

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Jul 2, 2020, 4:52:46 AM7/2/20
to Arnaud, Loxone English
For me the attraction is twofold:
1/ about a tenth of the price (£3 per relay channel Vs £40)
2/ no loxone proprietary lock in

I think I value #2 even more than #1.


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Arnaud

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Jul 2, 2020, 5:44:20 AM7/2/20
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hum, ok. 
To be afraid of a Loxone dependance in a Loxone forum is a little bit ironic ?

For #1, i think you forget the wiring and configuration efforts

but I better understand the motivation, Tks.


Le jeudi 2 juillet 2020 10:52:46 UTC+2, Joth a écrit :
For me the attraction is twofold:
1/ about a tenth of the price (£3 per relay channel Vs £40)
2/ no loxone proprietary lock in

I think I value #2 even more than #1.


On Thu, 2 Jul 2020, 08:56 Arnaud, <contact...@gmail.com> wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but I would like to understand the interest of controlling blinds motors with DMX instead of a Nano IO powered in 24v ?

Le jeudi 2 juillet 2020 00:06:37 UTC+2, Duncan a écrit :
[1] is a dmx dimmer that will use a transistor (solid state) with high frequency pwm switching of the output to 0v, the other end of the leds attaches to the common anode +v - this is extremely unlikely to work with your blinds input that requires 2 inputs to be shorted together and is likely to damage the electronics if you try

[2]  the relays are probably rated 12v inside and may last with 24v, but not likely forever, ive not tried it though so you can always try and se....

might be better off trying to find a proper 24v version

are these components going to be din rail mounted? how many channels do you need in each location?

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Daniel Feist

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Jul 2, 2020, 5:55:09 AM7/2/20
to Arnaud, Loxone English
It's a balance between loxone lock-in and additional cost vs. potential reliability/usability issues with other less mainstream approaches and equipment.  There is also the consideration that if you sell the house, or if your better half needs to get someone in to look at the system... standard approaches/equipment are going to be easier to deal with.

I think I'll probably use Loxone relays, but wire in such a way that I don't need rip off plasterboard if I did need to control blinds via some other mechanism down the line.



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Stickytricks

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Jul 2, 2020, 7:08:07 AM7/2/20
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@seb I just used the centralists rts unit to control the blinds
but to set up the stop points top and bottom of the blind you need the smoove wall switch, but once this is done/set the smoove wall switch is no longer required.

Seb

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Jul 3, 2020, 3:31:03 AM7/3/20
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@Duncan, there are 16 blinds over 4 floors, but I can group some together. They can be controlled from two locations. Location one would be 3 groups (so 9 relays), location two would be 7 groups (so 21 relays).

@Stickytricks, I was told that it was a total **** to setup the central RTS controller with the RS485 interface, do you have your config, would be great to see it. The RTS controller was my initial way of thinking but thought you needed the demo software to set the limits? Also how good is the signal to all your blinds? I have a pretty thick victorian wall between my cabinet and blinds.

@Arnaud I totally agree and everything else I have is Loxone (about to replace my DMX dimmers with the Loxone one) but it is purely a cost play as 10 groups of blinds would be £££ with Loxone relays (£66 for the tree that gives you 2 or £230 for 14 relays via an extension). I really dont know why they are so expensive considering how cheap they are. They should do an extension with low amp relays.

Rydens

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Jul 3, 2020, 3:40:26 AM7/3/20
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Interesting discussion on alternative approaches. Another approach is Shelly who have a external product similar to the Nano https://shelly.cloud/support/knowledge-base/shelly-25/  these can work at 24v or mains, and are controlled over standard WiFi so easy to integrate into Loxone with virtual outputs. I use several and they have been very reliable and a very good price. 
Cheers David

David Wallis

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Jul 3, 2020, 5:05:47 AM7/3/20
to Rydens, Loxone English

I’ve ordered some bits of hardware in to see if I can sort a DMX blind controller, Ill knock a prototype up and see if that works and is of any use to anyone.

 

Prob need to add a shift register to keep the mcu size sensible in order to use dip or solder bridges to set the dmx address though. – however Ideally I would like to keep the pcb compact so it could potentially be mounted inside a blind if so reqd.

 

 

From: Rydens
Sent: 03 July 2020 08:40
To: Loxone English
Subject: Re: Blind Motors

 

Interesting discussion on alternative approaches. Another approach is Shelly who have a external product similar to the Nano https://shelly.cloud/support/knowledge-base/shelly-25/  these can work at 24v or mains, and are controlled over standard WiFi so easy to integrate into Loxone with virtual outputs. I use several and they have been very reliable and a very good price. 

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Duncan

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Jul 3, 2020, 7:54:16 AM7/3/20
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the cheapest solution is to use 3 of the 12ch 12v dmx dimmer blocks with either a £2 'wall wart' power supply or a £5 24v to 12v buck converter

if you are wanting to din-rail these somewhere central then the 12 and 24ch din rail dimmers i pointed out plus the appropriate din mount slim relays (all 24v) works out more expensive but fits nicely in terms of cabinet tidiness plus

the shelly 2.5 are around £22-25 per blind and are very good, but would be wifi rather than wired, but you could fit the shelly at/close to the blind, reducing wiring cost and complexity, but requiring your wifi infrastructure to be sufficiently robust


On Friday, 3 July 2020 08:31:03 UTC+1, Seb wrote:

BartVB

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Jul 6, 2020, 5:10:08 AM7/6/20
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I'm currently using Shelly for our sunshades, works pretty well as a retrofit solution, it's wireless though and not 100% robust so far.

For the house that we're currently building I'm planning going to use SMI motors with a Wago PLC with SMI master module for our blinds (which is probably a bit overkill :D).

For conventional blinds motors a KNX 'Jalousieaktor' / Blinds actor / Shutter actor or universal switching is an affordable and robust option:

The demo or lite version of the ETS software is more than plenty to configure the unit(s). And there are a lot of these actors for sale on eBay and other classifieds sites.

Daniel Feist

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Jul 6, 2020, 5:26:56 AM7/6/20
to BartVB, Loxone English
 I'm planning going to use SMI motors with a Wago PLC with SMI master module for our blinds (which is probably a bit overkill :D).

What advantage does SMI give you over just standard motors with Loxone? Or won't you be using Loxone in this case?

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BartVB

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Jul 6, 2020, 5:36:25 AM7/6/20
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On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:26:56 AM UTC+2, DanF wrote:
 I'm planning going to use SMI motors with a Wago PLC with SMI master module for our blinds (which is probably a bit overkill :D).

What advantage does SMI give you over just standard motors with Loxone? Or won't you be using Loxone in this case?

With SMI you push some intelligence down the chain. The SMI master sends commands to an SMI motor like 'close 40%' or 'turn slats to 45 degrees'. The motor provides the master with status messages. This way it's easier to get all blinds on a facade in sync and conventional motors don't have a way to report status/problems.

I'm using Loxone for this moment, but most of the hardware is going to be KNX, some Wago for input/output and DMX for light. As soon as I find something better (on the software side) than Loxone I'm going to switch.
Loxone was a very promising option a few years back, but their direction since closing their forums is not exactly compatible with me.

There is a lot going on in the home automation scene. So for now I'm using Loxone because of the (fairly) easy configuration. But when the house is finished and I have a bit more time I'm going to switch to something more open.

Bart

Daniel Feist

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Jul 6, 2020, 9:00:52 AM7/6/20
to BartVB, Loxone English
With SMI you push some intelligence down the chain. The SMI master sends commands to an SMI motor like 'close 40%' or 'turn slats to 45 degrees'. The motor provides the master with status messages. This way it's easier to get all blinds on a facade in sync and conventional motors don't have a way to report status/problems.

I looked at this option, but quite a few people on the german forum suggested you didn't achieve any better results than by just using the Loxone time-based configuration and it wasn't worth the extra cost for blind motros + extra SNI/KNX modules required. 

Have you had bad experiences with standard motors and the time-based approach, or just trying to push as much intelligence to blinds as possible?  Can I ask which motors you will be using?  For some reason our blind manufacturer (Roma) doesn't want to supply electronic blind motors, only the standard Elero JA Soft, so I'm not sure.I even have the option.

Thanks,

 

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Stickytricks

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Jul 7, 2020, 5:40:55 PM7/7/20
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@seb.I have never used it with the rs485 interface. Just the rts centralis pared with Somy sonesse 30.

Seb

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Jul 8, 2020, 2:53:49 AM7/8/20
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Ah okay, but how do you control the RTS Centralis from Loxone?

Stickytricks

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Jul 8, 2020, 1:21:15 PM7/8/20
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You just need to use two relays. Centralis do a (volt free) dry contact rts transmitter. So its just a case of shorting up and common for the blind (or any other somfy rts enabled devices) to go up and down and common for the blind to go down then both together to stop.
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