Valve actuators - keep breaking

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James Eades

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Feb 17, 2021, 11:57:23 AM2/17/21
to Loxone English
Hi folks

anyone else had issues with the Loxone valve actuators breaking - I have 4 clients all with broken valve actuators.

Would be interested to know how wide spread this issue is.  I'm not getting any repsonse from Loxone about this but in my opinion they should last longer than a couple of years!

Cheers

Nova Saradjian

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Feb 17, 2021, 12:00:52 PM2/17/21
to James Eades, Loxone English
Yes I've had 3 crack in 3 years..... But Loxone replaced them even when they were out of warranty
The plastic underneath cracks and then the valve doesn't sit properly on the manifold
They need strengthening for sure 

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Rahul and Nandita Thakrar

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Feb 17, 2021, 12:00:52 PM2/17/21
to James Eades, Loxone English
I’ve had the same - two broken in four years...! I thought it was just me...

From: loxone-...@googlegroups.com <loxone-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of James Eades <ja...@energymyway.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 4:57:23 PM
To: Loxone English <loxone-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Valve actuators - keep breaking
 
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Christopher Hughes

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Feb 17, 2021, 3:10:27 PM2/17/21
to Nova Saradjian, James Eades, Loxone English
Yes,  I had one go in January after about 4 years. 
A mechanical failure alert appeared on the Loxone app, when I took the valve off there was a rattling noise from inside.

Got a replacement from Loxone pretty quickly after agreeing to send the damaged one back.  Didn’t hear anything back from Loxone though.

As it happened at the weekend I immediately ordered one from IIKSA,  so now have a spare ready to go.

On 17 Feb 2021, at 17:00, Nova Saradjian <no...@g-d-p.hu> wrote:



Andy Bond

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Feb 17, 2021, 3:15:34 PM2/17/21
to Nova Saradjian, James Eades, Loxone English
Had 5 out of 7 go in 2 years, ended up replacing them with big standard 24v on/off actuators

Loxone wouldn’t replace them as first 2 were water damage (smallest of drip from above onto the light fried the circuit). The others seemed to overdrive either during initialisation or just randomly - seemed the inside pin had gone past the end of the drive, so unwinding (opening) did absolutely nothing.

The 24v on/off actuators were £8 each, ip rated, and just work (connected up to a cheap relay board)

Florian

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Feb 18, 2021, 2:52:35 AM2/18/21
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With some radiant systems we've seen unusually high mechanical pressure that might cause an issue over a couple of years. In the meantime, we have strengthened the construction of the valve actuators.
In case of defects that occur due to mechanical pressure we replace the valve actuators with the newer (and stronger) ones.

Florian

Fabrizio Falca

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Feb 18, 2021, 3:10:51 AM2/18/21
to Florian, Loxone English

Thanks for your valuable feedback Florian,

this answer is by the way very important for many worried and loyal customers (19 units just for my case).

As of today due to this bad-feeling over Loxone actuators in most of the projects we are moving towards more reliable and so less-sofisticated actuators, aware of losing the competitive advantage of the communication bus and continuous regulation.

Is it possible to know from which date the new stronger actuators are ready off-the-shelf ?

Thanks a lot again!

Chris Pitman

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Feb 18, 2021, 7:10:42 AM2/18/21
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Had a load fail here 6 I think so far.

Interested to know when the stronger one came out as my original were just clipped together, the replacements were glued together one of these has failed also I opened it up and inside its exactly the same they just glue the bottom on to stop it popping off, some the white base cracks by the green clips and other like mine the black plastic inside fails. Its a weak design.

Check this link out to many others failing - They have a big problem and Loxone not interested after warranty.

Seb

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Feb 18, 2021, 10:49:29 AM2/18/21
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Yes, 2 broken out of 9. The mechanics were fine, it was the little green plastic clip that snapped so the valve popped off the grey housing. System was at 1.2bar and pin was not stuck. I would not trust the actuator on a UFH mixing valve as if that pops off your UFH temp may well end up at rad temp and your floors ruined.
AB542D46-D37A-4261-A9B6-F92843FE1E9B.jpeg

James Eades

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Feb 18, 2021, 10:54:54 AM2/18/21
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Hi Florian so do you know if its Loxone's policy to replace broken actuators FOC if they were made before a certain date?

Neil Fraser

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Jun 10, 2021, 8:23:27 AM6/10/21
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I have had so many of these break, I was searching for a solution when I found the forum.
I must have replaced 6 or 7 of them in the 4 years since the system was installed.
Three different breaks, 
  1. the clip, (or the white plastic by the green clip)
  2. the whole base of the actuator breaks off
  3. the motor gets jammed
at the best part of £100, a pop I am sick of it and thinking of adding wires and using simple actuators with a metal base or replacing the whole heating controls 
Loxone never replaces them, I have had the usual out-of-warranty or water damage excuse. 

there seems to be a bigger forum in the German section of Loxone but has anyone found a solution 

Deac99

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Jun 10, 2021, 8:32:20 PM6/10/21
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Back in 2017 I installed 35 of these and have not had one fail yet.  (Not from this vendor, but the same model actuator)


I also have experience with about 15 others same manufacturer but older model and they have all been in service for over 15 years without a failure.

Jakob Ventzel

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Jun 12, 2021, 4:55:00 AM6/12/21
to Loxone English
Hi  Deac99

The value actuators you mention (https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Actuator-Underfloor-Suitable-Heimeier-Thermoval/dp/B00EOR98NU/ref=psdc_2076257031_t1_B00JDLCXCK) sound interesting and has a reasonable price point. How are you controlling these using Loxone?

Kind regards Jakob

Mark Deacon

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Jun 12, 2021, 8:05:41 AM6/12/21
to Jakob Ventzel, Loxone English
Yes,
All controlled with Loxone.  The older ones started with KNX but after about 3 years they were switched to Loxone control.

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Jakob Ventzel

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Jun 13, 2021, 5:25:21 AM6/13/21
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>  All controlled with Loxone.  The older ones started with KNX but after about 3 years they were switched to Loxone control.

Understood :-) but how? Are you using Analog outputs because the valves can be set to certain percentage open? Or are they Binary/On-Off valves where, when powered (perhaps with 24VDC) they are fully open, and then not they are fully closed?

Kind regards Jakob

Rob

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Jun 13, 2021, 7:08:27 AM6/13/21
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The Loxone actuators are either Tree or AIR and in Config are just attached to the analogue IRC output. Essentially the actuators are similar to stepper motors or servos and are proportional. The other actuators linked in a previous post are electrothermal where the power applied heats up an element which in turn causes the valve to open. This usually takes a few minutes between fully closed and fully open and uses the PWM output from the IRC. Each valve has to be powered through a relay.

Mark Deacon

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Jun 13, 2021, 10:23:01 AM6/13/21
to Rob, Loxone English
@Rob - Thanks for that, I admit I did not read the specs on the Loxone actuators, now I understand why such a high price

@ Jakob, yes, the ones I mentioned are simply on/off using relays.  Currently they are on Loxone relay extensions which are a bit pricey.  In the future as I need relay extensions for other items, I will likely swap them out with DMX modules and solid state relays (The ones I have are 230V).  To control the flow I have the manual adjusters on the other manifold, I set them once many years ago and never touched them since.

These are examples of dmx units that provide a cost effective solution.


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Rob.b

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Jun 23, 2021, 5:48:43 AM6/23/21
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Just had my second valve actuator break in 3 years. I think it's the motor that's seized as the pin doesn't seem to be moving and now that it's off I can here a rattle. 
Very annoying! Going to try my luck with getting a replacement through loxone.

 

Peter Holden

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Feb 22, 2022, 12:22:24 PM2/22/22
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Purchased seven Tree actuators approx 5 years ago but didn't install any for three years - house renovation delays. The first two have now fractured across the base.
Have contacted Loxone support and been told the same, tired story. Must be down to excessive pressure in the system, ie, my fault.

Although at odds with this assertion is the fact that they extended the warranty in some cases to five years on this product. I assume because they accepted the initial batch were of poor quality. 

Bad timing, my actuators are 2 months outside the extended warranty.

What a shit company Loxone have become. 

Chris Pitman

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Feb 23, 2022, 2:27:11 PM2/23/22
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I don't think the design changed at all, I think the mouldings are all the same the fix was to just glue them together.

There was a guy on loxforum that was prototyping a new case design last I heard was on version 2.

Peter Holden

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Feb 24, 2022, 9:14:24 AM2/24/22
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Chris, no idea what changes they might or might not have made, but it's clear from this forum and on the Loxforum these products were not fit for purpose. What they should have done is recall them all but greed kicks in and they've taken the more cost effective option of replacing those that failed within a certain timeframe. I'm not really that bothered about the financial element, it's the claim that 'we've never seen one broken this badly before' which infuriates me. Anyway, those that are left will be getting replaced by Thermic actuators, fortunately I can still run wires to the manifold with no disruption to the fabric of the house. I still have four of these Tree actuators, which effectively are brand new, I wouldn't be so ignorant to try and sell them though. 

David Wallis

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Feb 24, 2022, 9:28:18 AM2/24/22
to Peter Holden, Loxone English
Probably never seen any that bad as they never get them back as out of warranty 🤦

Sanjeet Matharu

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Apr 4, 2022, 9:34:03 AM4/4/22
to Loxone English
Hi just been reading the experiences of others here and glad I'm not alone. I've got one manifold in particular where the actuators keep breaking, even if they're under a year old. I've had the whole manifold checked and my config checked yet to this day it's my fault and there's too much pressure according to Loxone. To be fair they have replaced a few of them in the past but it's so infuriating and now I'll have to purchase replacements. 

Can anyone recommend a third-party actuator which works as well as the Tree version but 1000 times more reliable?

Thanks,

Sanj

Peter Holden

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Apr 4, 2022, 10:38:18 AM4/4/22
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Sanjeet, just use a thermic actuator, 24v wired to a DMX controller. Of course, where you had one Tree wire previously you'll have to run new wires.
To be honest, I don't really get the point of the Tree actuators for a radiator heating system. Their analogue way of working means that a heating system inevitably at some point will have two radiator valves only partially open with the boiler full on. No doubt someone can explain why they're better than a digital version.

Sanjeet Matharu

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Apr 5, 2022, 8:38:36 AM4/5/22
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thanks may well have to give that a go!
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