[Trustee] Brief update on house hunting

[Henry Sands]

Short answer is we didn't get the property, we were simply out bid.

This brings us back to square one, can everyone please keep their eyes out for any interesting property.

Our requirements are:-

Industrial

5-7,000 Sq ft

Good enough transport links

If anyone finds anything, please email it to trus...@London.hackspace.org.uk

Many thanks,

Henry.

[Park Lover]

What is the budget?

[Paddy Duncan]

It depends, according to location, size, facilities….

The current rent + service charge + rates is just under £119500pa, and we just manage.

But we have a good location, yard, parking etc…

If, for example, we had moved to the place in Silvertown, those outgoings would have dropped by approx. 35%, but we also expect a drop in membership due to the less accessible location, minimal parking, no yard etc..

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[Jason T]

Regardless of where we go you will loose members. The further out you go and the less facilities you have, the more members you will loose. Maybe not right away but when people realise they're not using the place they will cancel.

Keep in mind most people use the space as an internet cafe , you don't need a hackspace to use the internet, it was just convenient.

The place we currently have was perfect for space and location, the reason it was able to attract enough members.

Getting a landlord to accept London Hackspace as a tenant with it's questionable ability to pay the rent will be a problem. (unless they're desperate)

Has anybody tried contacting the counsel for unused properties? 

[Billy]

Just got emailed this NESTA report, http://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/clubbing-map-what-has-happened-london-nightlife

It seems that we're not the only people that are having this problem.

It might be worth looking at the area's that these clubs are migrating to, as they'll have similar requirements in terms of finding places...

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

From what my clubbing friends say, they're not moving, they're closing
down. The result of NIMBYs and gentrification.

> *From:*london-h...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Park Lover
> *Sent:* 13 September 2017 13:48
> *To:* London Hackspace <london-h...@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* [london-hack-space] Re: [Trustee] Brief update on

> house hunting
>
>
>
> What is the budget?
>
> On Friday, 8 September 2017 10:30:57 UTC+1, Henry Sands wrote:
>
> Short answer is we didn't get the property, we were simply
> out bid.
>
>
>
> This brings us back to square one, can everyone please keep
> their eyes out for any interesting property.
>
>
>
> Our requirements are:-
>
> Industrial
>
> 5-7,000 Sq ft
>
> Good enough transport links
>
>
>
> If anyone finds anything, please email it to
> trus...@London.hackspace.org.uk
>
>
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Henry.
>
>
>
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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[Matthew Haynes]

> Keep in mind most people use the space as an internet cafe ,
> you don't need a hackspace to use the internet, it was just convenient.

Is this true? I see a few people on laptops but more doing something else. I don't see many people drinking coffee here either.

Have also heard that the workshop downstairs is oversized and under-used but the only time I've been alone downstairs is after midnight when more sensible people have gone home. It was jam packed on Sunday till after 10pm.

The impression I get is that these facilities are so rare, valuable and affordable that people will travel a good distance to use them, many of us already do it seems. Maybe some very local and occasional Hackspace members will leave, but presumably they'll be replaced by new local and occasional members in a different location.

[Adrian Godwin]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Jason T <jmcbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Regardless of where we go you will loose members. The further out you go and the less facilities you have, the more members you will loose. Maybe not right away but when people realise they're not using the place they will cancel.

Maybe. A good chunk of our income is from people who never use it, but keep paying out of goodwill, or forgetfulness, or something. It's one of the reasons we don't raise the minimum fee as we'd lose many of them.

 

Keep in mind most people use the space as an internet cafe , you don't need a hackspace to use the internet, it was just convenient.

They did at Cremer St. Not so much at Hackney Road - it's been getting gentrified while we've been there but it's nowhere near as handy for  the trendy places. Mare St is still a ghetto of fried chicken shops.

 

The place we currently have was perfect for space and location, the reason it was able to attract enough members.

Getting a landlord to accept London Hackspace as a tenant with it's questionable ability to pay the rent will be a problem. (unless they're desperate)

I don't believe we've ever failed to pay the rent, and doubt that a landlord would make 5-year projections of our membership demographic.

 

Has anybody tried contacting the counsel for unused properties? 

I believe so. The trustees have actually been working quite hard on this, though for some reason haven't chosen to keep us informed. However, the council has a bizarre requirement of wanting the facilities to be particularly beneficial to residents (they don't consider incoming business to be of any value to their ratepayers unless accompanied by appropriate investment, such as in pork).

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[Aaron Ryan]

Having recently moved from Los Angeles, California, I am new to the Hackspace and London in general.  I was extremely pleased to find the space and the open community when I started searching for a local space to move my projects forward.  From my perspective the Hackspace and the tenor of the community I have encountered is very unique, open, inviting, and very cheap relative to what is available for use both in terms of time and equipment.

I would gladly travel much further to maintain access to all of these things, even if the space was smaller in general.  I would also pay a bit more, since the expense is so low.

I don't have any specific recommendations for places that are available, but just wanted to add my voice to the conversation, especially as it relates to possibly having to travel a bit further to enjoy the various aspects of the Hackspace.

If I hear of anything available or any different opportunities I'll get back to the gorup.

Thanks,

Aaron

[Adrian Godwin]

You're overlooking the famous london parochialism. If it's not on your tube line, it's Foreign.

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[Aaron Ryan]

@Adrian Godwin, That's an unfortunate mindset...wonder if it persists in the Hackspace community?

[Henry Sands]

We're definitely looking for somewhere that's connected to the tube network in some way, being off it would seriously damage membership.

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[Adrian Godwin]

To some extent, though as a lot of hackspace members are imports rather than born londoners they're not quite as bad. You'll still often hear someone refer to another part of london - but still within the M25 or even the north circular - as though it were on the moon.

I think the problem is that travel within london is incredibly over-supplied compared to anywhere else in the country, yet still takes a long while. The experience of travelling a short distance or a journey with minimal changes is good, but you onlky need to add a bit of complexity and it scales non-linearly. So the typical londoner's map of the city makes short distances extra-short and medium distances disproportionately long. And because nowhere else in the country is apparently worth considering, you're at the mercy of Great A'Tuin outside the M25.

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[Andy Focallocal]

..they aren't migrating. 

the number of music venues has fallen off a cliff. only hope i see is that right now landlords are beginning to struggle to find tenants due to Brexit as a large percentage of the renting London population is from the EU. landlords seem confused as they've only known increasing prices, but it is happening and i believe really start to kick in around 9 months, reducing the price of renting a large workshop too. that may be too late for HS i just wanted to throw it in there, rents have begun to dip, and may drop.

[Alexander Baxevanis]

Have you tried using a broker? I worked with these guys a while ago: http://www.instantoffices.com/en/gb - they mainly do office space but sometimes they also have light industrial/warehouse properties. There's loads more like them, maybe there are some who specialise in what we want. They get commission from the landlord so we don't have to pay them anything.

On Friday, 8 September 2017 10:30:57 UTC+1, Henry Sands wrote:

[Adrian Godwin]

What if we rented that half-completed building next to oval space ?

It's just a concrete lattice but would support a huge number of shipping containers. We could containerise the hackspace (fill them a few at a time in the existing car park) and load it up. Presumably the owners will eventually develop it when prices are high enough, but then moving is much easier - just shift the containers.
 

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[Meggy]

How about buying a property collectively and filling it with shipping containers?

 

There could be a combination of private live/work and public space areas.

The private live work areas would subsidize the purchase of the public space. 

 

Running costs would be covered by the normal Hackspace membership fees.  

With no rent to pay this amount could go toward improving the space. IE: Facilities such as audio/videostudio, laundry, kitchen, social space, etc. 

Getting a mortgage for £100,000 is a lot easier than the current London £450,000 average one bedroom.

 

 If 30 members were able to do this, there would be £3,000,000 to play with.

 

[Adrian Godwin]

I'm not sure I'd want to get a £100000 mortgage to allow me to live in a shipping container.  But sure, it would be better to buy the land. I'd expect the rent to be much less for land than a fully serviced building, anyway. And yes, private spaces could work well since they are rigidly separated from communal areas, unlike 'private desks'.

There would also be installation and running costs for sewerage etc.

[Tom Newsom]

People are over-estimating the cost and feasibility of turning shipping containers on an empty site into workshops. Utilities need connecting, planning permission and building regs need to be complied with, fitout and access structures need building etc. It is a >12 month project at the very least and would cost a *LOT* in manpower and resources. At SLMS, it took us 2 years to get our railway arch to a completed state, and that at least had plumbing, electrics, four walls & a roof built in.

It is a completely unrealistic option, IMO.

If LHS is in it for the long term, then buying makes sense, but AFAIK there's not nearly enough cash on hand for the deposit.

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[Nigel Worsley]

On 18 September 2017 at 12:02, Tom Newsom <tom.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> People are over-estimating the cost and feasibility of turning shipping
> containers on an empty site into workshops.

I believe you meant UNDER-estimating!

It is a ridiculous idea, especially in the timescales involved.

Nigle

[Adrian Godwin]

As an engineer, I'd prefer to examine the issues and consider them rather than write the idea off as ridiculous.

But that's just me.

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[Adrian Godwin]

It would be much longer than a 12 month project. We've been in the hackspace 5 years and haven't half finished.  But it could start with a few parts and develop. It's a hackspace, not  a commercial office that has to be trading from day 1.

Think in terms of :

Buy 4 containers. Cost about £5000.

Put containers in the yard and start to fill them. Make them usable workspaces, eg a welding container, a lasercutter container, a server container.

Identify a suitable site. Ideally some derelict land or a building shell. May have some services present but probably unusable. Previous use should be industrial or storage.

Approx 3 months before the lease is up, take possession. Cost tba.

Buy a welfare unit container, an office container, and more empty ones as costs permit. These are available ready-fitted secondhand. Portakabins may be possible depending on site (they don't stack as high as containers but are cheaper and more often inhabitable). Cost about £4000.

Connect mains sewer and power to welfare container. £2-6000. Link power to office and essential containers. £500.

Move containers to new site as required. In 3 months pack remainder of hackspace into 2 more containers and exit hackspace. Cost £2000.

Rearrange contents in containers for most important usages.

Add containers as needed to make additional workspaces.

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:

As an engineer, I'd prefer to examine the issues and consider them rather than write the idea off as ridiculous.

But that's just me.

[Billy]

This is a plan that would work.

Look at S.M.E.E. https://www.sm-ee.co.uk/ctt-about-us/ They've been running for nearly 120 years, and they were the Victorian equivalent of a hackspace, when the cutting edge was steam technology. They own their building.

We already have members that have the experience of converting containers into usable structures.

We have the tools and the skills to do the physical work successfully.

If we'd bought the land/building 5 years ago, then we would be 20% of the way through paying a mortgage, and we wouldn't have to move.

I vote we go for it.

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[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

On 18/09/2017 12:38, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> It would be much longer than a 12 month project. We've been in the
> hackspace 5 years and haven't half finished. But it could start with a
> few parts and develop. It's a hackspace, not a commercial office that
> has to be trading from day 1.
>
> Think in terms of :
>
> Buy 4 containers. Cost about £5000.

*20ft containers at that price for four.

Current listed LHS is 600m^2 (including yard?). One 20ft container,
without interior cladding, has an area of 13.8m^2. That's 43 containers
to recreate the listed equivalent floor area.
Even working to deliberately compact the layout for containerisation,
we'd need a lot more than four containers to do any more than just store
the equipment.

> Put containers in the yard and start to fill them. Make them usable
> workspaces, eg a welding container, a lasercutter container, a server
> container.

Add fitting-out materials cost approx £1000 per container. Welding, new
flooring, insulation, boarding, power, lighting, data, security..

> Identify a suitable site. Ideally some derelict land or a building
> shell. May have some services present but probably unusable. Previous
> use should be industrial or storage.

Planning permission for change of use should only take 18 months or so.

> Approx 3 months before the lease is up, take possession. Cost tba.

That's the end of December 2017. We have 3 months to do the above.

> Buy a welfare unit container, an office container, and more empty ones
> as costs permit. These are available ready-fitted secondhand.
> Portakabins may be possible depending on site (they don't stack as high
> as containers but are cheaper and more often inhabitable). Cost about £4000.

Unless we're moving to a container terminal, you're not going to be able
to stack regular intermodal containers more than two high without hiring
a dedicated large crane instead of using the transport HIAB.

Stacking also means budgeting for access-ways, and almost guaranteeing
that it won't have access for wheelchair users.

We'll also need to prepare the site to make the containers sit level and
dry.

> Connect mains sewer and power to welfare container. £2-6000. Link power
> to office and essential containers. £500.
>
> Move containers to new site as required. In 3 months pack remainder of
> hackspace into 2 more containers and exit hackspace. Cost £2000.

Assuming a two-high stacking limit, the area occupied by the total of
ten containers so far described is 74m^2 (12.2x6.058). Add another 30m^2
for one containers-width of access down the open end of the containers.
So 104m^2 (8.5m x 12.2m) area minimum.

> Rearrange contents in containers for most important usages.

18 months of arguments over relative importance of different facilities.

> Add containers as needed to make additional workspaces.

Assuming we've been okay with getting more land than we actually need at
the time.

With a years prep time, this idea is still only feasible with
someone making definitive executive decisions rather than putting each
consideration out to discussion. With three months until it would need
to be put into action, it's totally unrealistic.

[Adrian Godwin]

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Peter "Sci" Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:

On 18/09/2017 12:38, Adrian Godwin wrote:

It would be much longer than a 12 month project. We've been in the
hackspace 5 years and haven't half finished.  But it could start with a
few parts and develop. It's a hackspace, not  a commercial office that
has to be trading from day 1.

Think in terms of :

Buy 4 containers. Cost about £5000.

*20ft containers at that price for four.

£1000 per container is  a reasonable estimate for a 20' container. Allow for a mix of tatty ones and decent one. Try to get some with windows prefitted.  About £5000 each new.

 

Current listed LHS is 600m^2 (including yard?). One 20ft container, without interior cladding, has an area of 13.8m^2. That's 43 containers to recreate the listed equivalent floor area.

But you don't need it all to start with. In fact, the used area at present is around 150 m^2.

 

Even working to deliberately compact the layout for containerisation, we'd need a lot more than four containers to do any more than just store the equipment.

Put containers in the yard and start to fill them. Make them usable
workspaces, eg a welding container, a lasercutter container, a server
container.

Yes. That's why I say containerise the important functions first (laser, metalwork, woodwork machinery, desk space, facilities) and pack the remaining stuff for storage . Extract it into containers as it gets needed.
 

Add fitting-out materials cost approx £1000 per container. Welding, new flooring, insulation, boarding, power, lighting, data, security..

Overdone. They're workshops, not luxury flats. Only half need insulation, and then only if they have external walls. For others, just space against the next container with a block of blue foam. Add other facilities as required. Note that the welfare unit is typically toilets + kitchen and can provide basic server space.

 

Identify a suitable site. Ideally some derelict land or a building
shell. May have some services present but probably unusable. Previous
use should be industrial or storage.

Planning permission for change of use should only take 18 months or so.

That's why previous use should be similar.

 

Approx 3 months before the lease is up, take possession. Cost tba.

That's the end of December 2017. We have 3 months to do the above.

Or to find a traditional space. At least with this plan, if we don't find anything in time, we have half the hackspace already packed to go into storage and a plan in progress.

 

Buy a welfare unit container, an office container, and more empty ones
as costs permit. These are available ready-fitted secondhand.
Portakabins may be possible depending on site (they don't stack as high
as containers but are cheaper and more often inhabitable). Cost about £4000.

 Unless we're moving to a container terminal, you're not going to be able to stack regular intermodal containers more than two high without hiring a dedicated large crane instead of using the transport HIAB.

So stack them 2 high to start with, add further layers for expansion.

 

Stacking also means budgeting for access-ways, and almost guaranteeing that it won't have access for wheelchair users.

The first layer will be ready to access immediately and other layers can be accessed as they're added. Don't think of it as a white box - it's a staged conversion of a brownfield site.

 

We'll also need to prepare the site to make the containers sit level and dry.

Yes, a concrete slab would be an extremely good investment. But again, it's not necessary to get the perfect base initially : there will be a lot of crane movements before the building is too big to move.

 

Connect mains sewer and power to welfare container. £2-6000. Link power
to office and essential containers. £500.

Move containers to new site as required. In 3 months pack remainder of
hackspace into 2 more containers and exit hackspace. Cost £2000.

Assuming a two-high stacking limit, the area occupied by the total of ten containers so far described is 74m^2 (12.2x6.058). Add another 30m^2 for one containers-width of access down the open end of the containers. So 104m^2 (8.5m x 12.2m) area minimum.

104m^2 is not large in office space (10m x 10m), but tiny in land sites. My house has a bigger footprint than that, not including garage, garden, or 2nd floor. And it's not a big house for the suburbs.

 

Rearrange contents in containers for most important usages.

18 months of arguments over relative importance of different facilities.

We'd have that anyway over the prime workshop spots. And at least there's also the option of telling a group to pledge for their own container.

 

Add containers as needed to make additional workspaces.

Assuming we've been okay with getting more land than we actually need at the time.

Or we can afford to stack them.
 

With a years prep time, this idea is still only feasible with
someone making definitive executive decisions rather than putting each consideration out to discussion. With three months until it would need to be put into action, it's totally unrealistic.

It's not totally unrealistic. It's no less realistic than trying to find an optimum office space when we've just lost the one we hoped for. And it's far more amenable to flexible realisation.
 

Keep the criticism coming. I don't want to have to solve them all, but specific objections are far easier to address than blanket nays.

[Russ Garrett]

You would need planning permission, and possibly building regs
approval, for this.

Russ

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[Tom Newsom]

POP Brixton is of comparable scale to an LHS container village. Some interesting figures can be found here: https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s73039/Impact%20Hub%20ODDR%20-%20TB.docx.pdf

33 containers, on a level and empty site, with water/sewage already laid and connected, with 3 years rent-free. These were the planned costs, covered by GLA and Lambeth grants:

However, POP also invested £500k of their own money in the scheme.

From winning the grant to a bare-bones opening took 12 months.

[Adrian Godwin]

Sounds reasonable. For containers fitted out to office standard and all completed before opening.

Cladding on the outside ?

More than twice as much on timber floors than the actual containers cost ?

What were they thinking ?

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[Adrian Godwin]

I like the green roof idea, though.

[Andy at Focallocal]

if you take that shell of a building why bother with shipping containers? Second Home in Shoreditch just left it as an empty shell and stuck sheets of clear acrylic/perspex around the outside. then developed/decorated it. they spent a pretty large budget on decorating the interior though

https://www.amc-archi.com/mediatheque/0/1/0/000023010/espaces-de-coworking-second-home-selgascano.jpg

also, what about that abandoned school behind HS? its just used as a car park for a road works company atm, the building is empty but obviously has power nearby as they are using it (out of container boxes). i imagine if the building is structurally sound and we prepared a proposal to fix it up and make it useable again, they'd be over the moon. i hear its still there because its listed and they don't know what to do with it. in terms of the huge amount of work involved, we could convert/renovate it on a room by room basis so in the future HS would even be able to rent out additional space to other companies. the council wouldn't want any rent for a long time, so we could actually pay our members to work on it out of the membership fee.

the big if is whether it is still structurally sound, although if not i expect it would have been pulled down.

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[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Abandoned school? You mean that massive burnt-out shell to the north-east?

I've wondered about that place for a while, but that it's not being used
to store anything itself suggests that it's either unsound & listed or
riddled with asbestos. And if it's listed, making it even slightly
usable is going to be a lot of expense.

[Andy at Focallocal]

listed from what i understand. i believe its a pain in the councils bum,
they cant do anything with it and want it renovated, but who's going to
pay for it?

pretty sure we'd get a long tenancy for free if they agreed to our
proposal, and could redirect a portion of our membership fees into the
regeneration - over the course of 5 years that's a decent budget.
working on a room by room incremental basis the renovations wouldn't be
disruptive to the rest of HS, and i' sure many members would love the
paid work and project of rebuilding our own space

besides, that building would look spectacular if it was brought up to
scratch

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

My mistake. The shell to the north-east appears to have once been part
of the Chandler & Co Wiltshire Brewery. 1866-1911.

https://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/zoomify151273.html
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/mapsu145ubu22u12uf385ru2.html

Interesting, as it looks like The Oval came into existence around the
same time as it was built. Before that Grove Passage seems to have been
a road called Cambridge Place.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/middx/vol11/pp109-112

On 18/09/2017 21:31, Peter "Sci" Turpin wrote:

[Nigel Worsley]

On 18 September 2017 at 22:23, Peter "Sci" Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
> My mistake. The shell to the north-east appears to have once been part of
> the Chandler & Co Wiltshire Brewery. 1866-1911.

Nice bit of research, my own perusal of old maps came up with nothing.

My thoughts were that it looked more like a warehouse (and possibly a
brewery) than a school. nice to have it confirmed.

Nigle

[Adrian Godwin]

That school would indeed be amazing. I didn't even know it was there.

Maybe a lottery grant would set it up as some sort of arts/hack centre.

I do think a few people would be interested in helping, but given that we can't get most people to clean up after themselves I'm not sure it would be many. The council would be mad to trust us with a listed building .. but then I guess if they trust developers they're likely to get it accidentally knocked down.

[Adrian Godwin]

Not sure if I'm looking at the right place. The school marked on Sci's map is now a day centre.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5336255,-0.0617808,3a,75y,35.6h,84.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMsbKVflH4ujSfOjiihouPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Is that the one ? Or is only part of it used for the day centre ?

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

It is my belief that a large part of why people don't clean up after
themselves at the space is because the space is constantly changing.
Something like the "broken window" idea. Because it's in flux, there's
no point bringing it all to a shine. Being contractually obligated to
work to a higher standard might change that.

Managing the restoration of a listed building would need much more
control than the usual "someone else will get around to it" repairs of
the current LHS. Plus fixing up listed structures tends to carry severe
financial penalties if you don't do it to the required standard, let
alone outright wrong. We wouldn't be able to bodge it.

While they've gotten more flexible with permitted alterations to listed
buildings in recent years, I think it's Grade I where you need to
preserve the internal structure as well as the external appearance. If
it's that, then we shouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

I would expect it to be some type of Grade II if it is, since it's a
former industrial site and (judging from the map) about 4/5ths of the
complex has already been demolished & redeveloped. Good arguments for
stabilising the structure & exterior, but allowing some sympathetic
alterations & interior changes.

If it's structure is fundamentally sound. Otherwise it's a multi-million
pound black hole.

On 18/09/2017 22:34, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> That school would indeed be amazing. I didn't even know it was there.
>
> Maybe a lottery grant would set it up as some sort of arts/hack centre.
>
> I do think a few people would be interested in helping, but given that
> we can't get most people to clean up after themselves I'm not sure it
> would be many. The council would be mad to trust us with a listed
> building .. but then I guess if they trust developers they're likely to
> get it accidentally knocked down.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 10:23 PM, Peter "Sci" Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com
> <mailto:s...@sci-fi-fox.com>> wrote:
>
> My mistake. The shell to the north-east appears to have once been
> part of the Chandler & Co Wiltshire Brewery. 1866-1911.
>
> https://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/zoomify151273.html

> <https://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/zoomify151273.html>
> http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/mapsu145ubu22u12uf385ru2.html

> send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:london-hack-space%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout

> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.

>
>
> --
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[Nigel Worsley]

On 18 September 2017 at 22:40, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure if I'm looking at the right place. The school marked on Sci's map
> is now a day centre.

Wrong place, it is one (I think!):
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5326546,-0.0593503,3a,15y,66.73h,96.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLOF7CPurdiuUcLHnpI_gwA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5334969,-0.0579862,3a,30y,200.83h,94.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz0G17zbQcLsBL4Z7d7BNbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It could be turned into a totally awesome hackspace, but not within
the timescale or budget that we have available.

Nigle

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

The place I thought they were talking about was this thing:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5326285,-0.0594147,3a,31.2y,65.15h,97.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQh0oQoowbnvcK7VLhVCe6w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

On 18/09/2017 22:40, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> Not sure if I'm looking at the right place. The school marked on Sci's
> map is now a day centre.
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5336255,-0.0617808,3a,75y,35.6h,84.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMsbKVflH4ujSfOjiihouPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
>
> Is that the one ? Or is only part of it used for the day centre ?
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com
> <mailto:artg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> That school would indeed be amazing. I didn't even know it was there.
>
> Maybe a lottery grant would set it up as some sort of arts/hack centre.
>
> I do think a few people would be interested in helping, but given
> that we can't get most people to clean up after themselves I'm not
> sure it would be many. The council would be mad to trust us with a
> listed building .. but then I guess if they trust developers they're
> likely to get it accidentally knocked down.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 10:23 PM, Peter "Sci" Turpin
> <s...@sci-fi-fox.com <mailto:s...@sci-fi-fox.com>> wrote:
>
> My mistake. The shell to the north-east appears to have once
> been part of the Chandler & Co Wiltshire Brewery. 1866-1911.
>
> https://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/zoomify151273.html

> <https://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/zoomify151273.html>
> http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/xi/mapsu145ubu22u12uf385ru2.html

> london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:london-hack-space%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout

> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.

>
>
>
> --
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[Tom Newsom]

Good lord. I would not touch that with a barge pole (it might fall down)

Massive liability, even if it was affordable

[Adrian Godwin]

That is indeed what I thought you were talking about initially. But I also thought that it was the building you'd identified as part of the brewery, and that Andy was talking about something different - perhaps the building marked as 'board school' on the insurance map.

I agree with Tom, I wouldn't touch that thing in the roadworks depot, impressive though it is.

--

[Andy at Focallocal]

the council has failed to find anyone wanting to do anything with it for around 50 years, can't see it changing too soon. they might require a proper proposal, but if they are eager to get the building fixed up they might also be very eager in helping us do that including help setting up the lottery grant. personally i'd recommend just a quick clean of an area, then put see through flexible polyurethane sheets around that room. hook up the electric, put a heater and bring a few machines across. from that point it's useable and we can build out and up.

lets be honest, the only other thing it'll be turned into is posh housing and they'll want to make too many structural changes. had dealings with a landlord and his cousin in Chelsea who purchased listed buildings as their business and had accidentally mis-communicated with builders on their last 14 properties, leading to things like a sky roof in the garden forcing its listed status being revoked. then put in swimming pools, etc. simply, if the courts can't prove malice they simply get away with it, time after time.

anyway, sorry for the rant. that's the most likely other alternative. there are people out there who make a very plush living having 'accidents'. so you could argue we are the only ones who are going to preserve it

On 18/09/2017 22:34, Adrian Godwin wrote:

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[Andy at Focallocal]

its no day center. completely abandoned. just a company based in shipping containers in its car park.

you can access it from Hare Row

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5334969,-0.0579862,3a,75y,222.74h,77.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz0G17zbQcLsBL4Z7d7BNbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Andy

On 18/09/2017 22:40, Adrian Godwin wrote:

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[Tom Lynch]

Anyone know anything about Brownall House, Cambridge Heath Road? Former council offices, was squatted in 2013:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Brownall+House/@51.526713,-0.0554832,3a,75y,218.28h,103.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRL07LwQ95hGiCmqYFKDofA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x48761cda61ca6577:0xb85d3693ee083375!8m2!3d51.5266357!4d-0.0557014?hl=en

[Adrian Godwin]

OK, so it's the rotting building on the old brewery site, not the Board School on Marian Place.

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-- 
There's beauty all around you, remember to take a little break and enjoy it today

Andy at Focallocal :O)
focallocal.org

--

[Andy at Focallocal]

nothing obvious here: https://development.towerhamlets.gov.uk/online-applications/simpleSearchResults.do?action=firstPage

or here: http://planning.hackney.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/Generic/StdResults.aspx?PT=Planning%20Applications%20On-Line&SC=Property%20Name%20contains%20BROWNALL%20HOUSE&FT=Planning%20Application%20Search%20Results&XMLSIDE=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Hackney/Menus/PL.xml&XSLTemplate=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Hackney/xslt/PL/PLResults.xslt&PS=10&XMLLoc=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer /Generic/XMLtemp/zs5reirl3gm5he3da1aphps4/d727a4c4-bb52-4f7a-bbb3-5b73b2507df4.xml

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[Tom Lynch]

Olivers yard: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5240577,-0.0874006,3a,83.1y,136.25h,99.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHuzQOukDkX6t3DNexDOB5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[Andy at Focallocal]

rather than looking for places, it might be better to simply ask the planning dept at the council. i imagine they might have a good idea of any spaces that fit our requirements and need a community benefiting resident

On 18/09/2017 23:20, Tom Lynch wrote:

Olivers yard: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5240577,-0.0874006,3a,83.1y,136.25h,99.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHuzQOukDkX6t3DNexDOB5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

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[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Yes, that appears to be part of the former brewery. Curious to learn a
bit more about it now, utility to the LHS nonwithstanding.

On 18/09/2017 22:57, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> That is indeed what I thought you were talking about initially. But I
> also thought that it was the building you'd identified as part of the
> brewery, and that Andy was talking about something different - perhaps
> the building marked as 'board school' on the insurance map.
>
> I agree with Tom, I wouldn't touch that thing in the roadworks depot,
> impressive though it is.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Tom Newsom <tom.n...@gmail.com
> <mailto:tom.n...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Good lord. I would not touch that with a barge pole (it might fall down)
> Massive liability, even if it was affordable
>
> On Monday, 18 September 2017 22:51:38 UTC+1, Nigle wrote:
>
> On 18 September 2017 at 22:40, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Not sure if I'm looking at the right place. The school marked on Sci's map
> > is now a day centre.
>
> Wrong place, it is one (I think!):
> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5326546,-0.0593503,3a,15y,66.73h,96.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLOF7CPurdiuUcLHnpI_gwA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

> <https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5326546,-0.0593503,3a,15y,66.73h,96.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLOF7CPurdiuUcLHnpI_gwA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656>
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5334969,-0.0579862,3a,30y,200.83h,94.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz0G17zbQcLsBL4Z7d7BNbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

> <https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5334969,-0.0579862,3a,30y,200.83h,94.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz0G17zbQcLsBL4Z7d7BNbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656>
>
>
> It could be turned into a totally awesome hackspace, but not within
> the timescale or budget that we have available.
>
> Nigle
>
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[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Any information on it's current status? The name sounds familiar.

[Tom]

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

[Tom]

Andy you might have luck if you try contacting the team responsible for council led redevelopment, at Lambeth our contact’s title was:

Investment & Growth
Neighbourhoods & Growth 
London Borough of Lambeth

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

[Tom]

I don’t live near that area otherwise I’d have a roam around the area with folks and see what we can spot on foot and then make enquiries.

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

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[Adrian Godwin]

I suspect the council knows exactly how to deal with it if they're the owners : wait until it's unsafe then revoke the listed status so it can be 'made safe'.
 

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

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[Adrian Godwin]

I'm more curious about the partial building I initially pointed out - the concrete frame next to Oval Space. What's the history of that ?

[Adrian Godwin]

http://breweryhistory.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chandler%27s_Wiltshire_Brewery_Ltd

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[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Cheers Tom. That imagery's a bit more up to date than googlemaps.

Checked the registry of listed buildings for E2 to see if it is on there
or not.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/

Amazingly, I can't see it on there in the 10 pages of items or on the
map. I am reasonably convinced everything but the LHS on Hackney Road is
at least Grade II listed though. 456 is the address of the yard next
door isn't it? It's on there twice, grade II listed.

If the old brewery isn't full of asbestos then, I can only assume
there's a property firm sitting on it. I wonder who owns it.

On 18/09/2017 23:46, Tom wrote:
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
> Tom Lynch
>
>> On 18 Sep 2017, at 23:34, Peter Sci Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com

[Adrian Godwin]

http://dobbinandsullivan.com/find-a-property/properties/48-storage-yard-the-oval-hackney

[Tom]

Would appear to be 33-37 The Oval

http://www.neptunegroup.com/complete/the-oval-33-37-the-oval.html

May be owned by the council.

Think is there is probably a very good reason it’s an empty shell because Oval Space must make a fortune and could have put a business case together by now, if not some other developer, however it’s probably worth an enquiry.

This was a proposal a couple years ago which won some competition:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/interiors/renovating/10139043/Forgotten-Spaces-shortlist-neglected-London-places-reimagined.html?frame=2598582&page=-3182598586

Here is approved planning permission from May 2016, I’m guessing if someone pops round it looks a fair bit different:

https://development.towerhamlets.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=DCAPR_117993

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

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[Tom]

For your interest and mine about the old brewery:

Marlbrough Surfacing Limited

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5334969,-0.0579862,3a,15y,202.91h,95.86t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sz0G17zbQcLsBL4Z7d7BNbw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dz0G17zbQcLsBL4Z7d7BNbw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D86.948235%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Address is probably Hare Lane, E2 9BY as thats what the Post Office PAF database says Marlborough’s address is.

Wiltshire Brewery and pub:

https://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/BethnalGreen/HareHackney.shtml

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Charrington_and_Co

505 Hackney Road Brewery

Recent hi-res imagary: http://breweryhistory.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chandler%27s_Wiltshire_Brewery_Ltd

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

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[Billy]

Another thing worth thinking about, is that by March, we will have a 5 year track record of paying the rent successfully.

That's approximately £420,000 gone out in rent over the last 5 years.

Does anyone know what size of commercial mortgage would that track record qualify us for?

It would give us a baseline figure to work with.

https://development.towerhamlets.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=DCAPR_117993

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

Kind Regards


Tom Lynch

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[Tom]

And finally, satellite imagery from bing, looks like it’s used by them for storage, I doubt there are floors in the building, seems likely it’s derelict waiting to fall down which is sad when you think this was a family owned brewery in the 1800s.

[Nigel Worsley]

On 19 September 2017 at 01:16, Tom <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:

And finally, satellite imagery from bing, looks like it’s used by them for storage

Which is rather odd, as the Valuation Office Agency (the business rates body) lists neither the building or the yard. This presumably means they are paying no business rates for anything, so what sort of dodgy deal do they have with the council?

Nigle

[Adrian Godwin]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Tom <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk> wrote:

Recent hi-res imagary: http://breweryhistory.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chandler%27s_Wiltshire_Brewery_Ltd

The old imagery there (1893) is particularly interesting - it seems the remaining building was just one section of a larger building in the same style. Also interesting to connect the archway in hackney road with the brewery.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

The 1893 drawing doesn't seem to fully match the 1891 fire insurance
map. But yes, it looks like the remaining structure is just part of the
original building. Presumably the bit including the "press room". I'll
have to run by there this week and pick some brains. See if I can
compare what's left to the map.

I wonder when they tore down the other bits.

This is getting off-topic though. If I find anything interesting out
I'll do a new followup thread.

On 19/09/2017 01:31, Adrian Godwin wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Tom <m...@unknowndomain.co.uk
> <mailto:m...@unknowndomain.co.uk>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Recent hi-res
> imagary: http://breweryhistory.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chandler%27s_Wiltshire_Brewery_Ltd

> <http://breweryhistory.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chandler's_Wiltshire_Brewery_Ltd>

[Billy]

I just spoke to a couple of mortgage brokers to get a rough idea of what we could potentially afford.

With the 5 year track record that we have, we would qualify for a commercial mortgage of 20 yeas, Capital & Interest payments, giving a price range of £400K-£600K for buying a building.

For looking at just buying the land, without planning permission, we would qualify for figures of around the same value, but the commercial banks would only cover up to 70% of the land value. We would need to include the costs of the planning permissions, the insurance, and the cost of construction as well.

The brokers that i spoke to did not mention about what levels of deposit would be required.

These are only rough figures. With some skilled negotiators, we could squeeze a better deal for ourselves.

We would also need to organise more effective protections from fraud, than we currently have, though this could be done through the Articles & Memoranda that we use.

There are numerous examples of this from the Housing Co-operative sector.

I don't know much about land prices in London.

What sort of areas could we look for that these amounts would cover?

[Tom Lynch]

Can you really buy land and build a structure and fit out a space for £600k?

[Billy]

On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 11:34:34 AM UTC+1, Tom Lynch wrote:

Can you really buy land and build a structure and fit out a space for £600k?

Outside London, very easily.

Inside London, it depends...

And with the rough plan that Adrian came up with:

"It would be much longer than a 12 month project. We've been in the hackspace 5 years and haven't half finished.  But it could start with a few parts and develop. It's a hackspace, not  a commercial office that has to be trading from day 1.

Think in terms of :

Buy 4 containers. Cost about £5000.

Put containers in the yard and start to fill them. Make them usable workspaces, eg a welding container, a lasercutter container, a server container.

Identify a suitable site. Ideally some derelict land or a building shell. May have some services present but probably unusable. Previous use should be industrial or storage.

Approx 3 months before the lease is up, take possession. Cost tba.

Buy a welfare unit container, an office container, and more empty ones as costs permit. These are available ready-fitted secondhand. Portakabins may be possible depending on site (they don't stack as high as containers but are cheaper and more often inhabitable). Cost about £4000.

Connect mains sewer and power to welfare container. £2-6000. Link power to office and essential containers. £500.

Move containers to new site as required. In 3 months pack remainder of hackspace into 2 more containers and exit hackspace. Cost £2000.

Rearrange contents in containers for most important usages.

Add containers as needed to make additional workspaces."

It would be possible to start with something simple and functional, and gradually expand.

Think in terms of SMEE. They started in a similar way to us, but they are still going nearly 120 years later.

Plan with this sort of time-scale in mind, and the figures become a lot less daunting. £400k-£600k split over 120 years, is £3333-£5000, per year.

After all, we will own the building, and, the land, so we can afford to think in the longer term...

 

[Tom Newsom]

Good luck finding empty land at a good price! 

Here's some construction costs:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/601846/industrial-building-cost-uk-2016/

£840/m² for basic warehouse in London => £500k to match the current space's area.

Buying property is a good idea if it's affordable, but given the timescales involved, an existing building is probably the most realistic option.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

It's also a bad time to buy. Prices are currently inflated in another
speculative bubble and we can expect the land to severely devalue
sometime if/when Brexit goes through.

It's also unlikely we'd be able to buy within the remaining time left
anyway. At very least we'd still need to be looking for a years worth of
temporary accommodation.

[Des Quilty]

I wouldn't be surprised if a commercial development loan would require personal guarantees from a officer(s) of the organisation, and evidence that there were assets which could be acquired by the bank supplying the loan in case of a default..

[Lex Robinson]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 at 11:50 Billy <bi...@billycomputersmith.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 11:34:34 AM UTC+1, Tom Lynch wrote:

Can you really buy land and build a structure and fit out a space for £600k?

Outside London, very easily.

Inside London, it depends...

Unfortunately if you buy land outside of London it's no longer the London Hackspace and all the current members that you need in order to get this loan will evaporate like morning mist.

Given the utilisation of the car park vs the utilisation of the space I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the number of people that own a car and are willing to commute to the hackspace is far far below the minimum viable population required.

The next venue will have to be near the tube & fully usable up front or it'll tank.

[Mark Steward]

I don't know whether it'll tank but I'll need a really good reason to visit in person if it's not near the tube, especially during winter.

Mark

[Cyrus Razavi]

A lead for the Trustees - Park View Recycling Centre in Tottenham Hale is due to close in October - I enquired and they said to get in touch with North London Waste Authority (0208 489 5730). It's a big site...