Beginner help, with also, How to reference product names that have no official Lojiban translation?

[Romaji ####]

Hello again.

I'd post this on the original thread I started with, but that kinda got derailed.

I've read some of the guide who's link was posted in the other thread, and I decided to try it out, creating this example sentence:

ko pilno la skipe. tavla .i 

 Or, as I hope it translates to, "[I command you to] use Skype [to] talk" or, in more fluid English "You need to use Skype to talk."

I have 2 questions here

1. Is "la skipe" the proper way to refer to Skype (the service/program) in lojiban?
2. How would you add the clause "to me" at the end of the senescence in Lojiban?

Thanks in advance,

Romaji ####

[Jonathan Jones]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Romaji #### <nxt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello again.

I'd post this on the original thread I started with, but that kinda got derailed.

I've read some of the guide who's link was posted in the other thread, and I decided to try it out, creating this example sentence:

ko pilno la skipe. tavla .i 

You can't have two selbri at the same level in a bridi, what you have is ungrammatical (it breaks at tavla). Also, {.i} /begins/ a statement, it doesn't end it, so you only need it if there's going to be another statement after that one.

 

 Or, as I hope it translates to, "[I command you to] use Skype [to] talk" or, in more fluid English "You need to use Skype to talk."

"You! use the-thing-named "skipe" <PARSE ERROR!>"

 

I have 2 questions here

1. Is "la skipe" the proper way to refer to Skype (the service/program) in lojiban?

No. {skipe} is an undefined gismu (pronounced SKEE-peh). You want to use a cmevla, so {la.skaip.}, or possibly a fu'ivla, such as {skaipe}.

 

1. How would you add the clause "to me" at the end of the senescence in Lojiban?

Fill the x2 place of tavla.

I'd go with {ko tavla mi sepi'o la.skaip.}: "You! talk to-me using-Skype."

 

Thanks in advance,

Romaji ####

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Romaji ####]

Thank you.

one question, what does sepi'o mean or do in a bridi? 

[Ian Johnson]

Thank you.

one question, what does sepi'o mean or do in a bridi? 

{se pi'o} is two words. Just {pi'o} is a tag which inserts the x1 place of {pilno} into a bridi. With {se} in front, you get a tag which inserts the x2 place. We can be more precise by actually using {pilno} as our main selbri and filling all three of its places:

.i ko pilno la .skaip. lo nu do tavla

Or we can be less precise by making a tanru:

.i ko pilno be la .skaip. [be'o] tavla

mi'e la latro'a mu'o (This means "my name is {latro'a}, my message is complete, you may respond.")

[Romaji ####]

So, the segment "se pi'o la .skaip." means "using Skype"? Roughly?

Split componentwise, does the first sentence mean "I! use Skype [in some event where] you talk."?

[Ian Johnson]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Romaji #### <nxt...@gmail.com> wrote:

So, the segment "se pi'o la .skaip." means "using Skype"? Roughly?

That's correct.

Split componentwise, does the first sentence mean "I! use Skype [in some event where] you talk."?

 It's more specific, because we're actually using all three places of {pilno}. It means "I order you to use Skype so as to talk".

[Romaji ####]

Thank you.

(P.S. Would the equivalent of your sig be "me'i la romaji mu'o", or is there some Illegal combination of letters there?)

[Ian Johnson]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Romaji #### <nxt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you.

(P.S. Would the equivalent of your sig be "me'i la romaji mu'o", or is there some Illegal combination of letters there?)

It'd be {mi'e}, but there's a technical problem with {romaji} as a name. For morphology reasons with which you needn't be concerned yet, {romaji} is actually {ro ma ji}, three cmavo. So it can't be a valid name.

The standard fix is to stick an arbitrary consonant onto the end. This makes a cmevla (the same word class as {.skaip.}), which can only serve as names. The most common choice is {s}, which would make your sig {mi'e la .romajis. mu'o}.

[Romaji ####]

Or it could be {mi'e la .romajih. mu'o}, right?

[John E. Clifford]

Or surround {romaji} with forced pauses, written {la .romaji.}

Sent from my iPad

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[Romaji ####]

(the H because of the last name being Hashes)

[John E. Clifford]

No /h/ in Lojban.

Sent from my iPad

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[Romaji ####]

wait, I don't need the forced pauses and the consonant?

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[Ian Johnson]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 7:19 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <loj...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Or surround {romaji} with forced pauses, written {la .romaji.}

That actually doesn't work, the internal fragmentation is independent of the pauses.

[Romaji ####]

I suspected as much.

I'll use s as my arbartrary constant

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[John E. Clifford]

Drat, have they changed the rules again for the Lord knows how manieth time?  It has been, from time to time, that *anything* preceded by {la .} and followed by{.}, with no intervening pause was a name, including some rather messy sentences, the names of books or Indians (He is so fierce his enemies are afraid of even just his horses.). What is the rule this week?

Sent from my iPad

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[TR NS]

On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 10:34:36 PM UTC-4, clifford wrote:

Drat, have they changed the rules again for the Lord knows how manieth time?  It has been, from time to time, that *anything* preceded by {la .} and followed by{.}, with no intervening pause was a name, including some rather messy sentences, the names of books or Indians (He is so fierce his enemies are afraid of even just his horses.). What is the rule this week?

Funny. I was just wondering how one specifies a name that is also meaningful Lojban phrase. 

[selpa'i]

Am 25.09.2014 01:17, schrieb Romaji ####:
> Or it could be {mi'e la .romajih. mu'o}, right?

The closest to "h" is {x}, so you could go with {romajix}. (Isn't your
name pronounced more like {romadji} though?)

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

[Jacob Errington]

On 24 September 2014 22:34, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <loj...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Drat, have they changed the rules again for the Lord knows how manieth time?  It has been, from time to time, that *anything* preceded by {la .} and followed by{.}, with no intervening pause was a name, including some rather messy sentences, the names of books or Indians (He is so fierce his enemies are afraid of even just his horses.). What is the rule this week?

It's been this way since the CLL at least, so for around the last 20 years.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o 

[John E. Clifford]

Good to hear.

Sent from my iPad

--

[Alex Kozhevnikov]

Since we're talking about valid cmevla, I've been wondering, how much
adoption has this seen?
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Case+Against+LA

Personally I found the arguments in that page for the change
compelling, but since I'm new around here I have no context as to how
much acceptance it has gotten.

[Gleki Arxokuna]

it is now used by almost all active Lojbanists in IRC.

It's a backward compatible change since now all cmevla must start with a pause, not just before vowels but even before consonants which wasn't the case before proposing this rule.

[John E Clifford]

This still divides people but the dotside position (accepting the change) seems to be winning (and I used it earlier).

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[Gleki Arxokuna]

You can still use old method. They dont conflict.

When a person looks at {.djan.} they would ask themselves "Why the dot in the front? Something new here, I must learn about it."

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[Jorge Llambías]

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

You can still use old method. They dont conflict.

That's not quite true, conflicts are relatively rare, but the two methods are not fully compatible. For example:

 

  la .glékilaxorxes. cu darxi

has a different meaning depending on which method you use. 

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Gleki Arxokuna]

Why would one put a dot before a gismu? It's non standard and thus requires learning something new, namely, the dotside.

[Jorge Llambías]

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why would one put a dot before a gismu?

Only to prove a point, as far as I can see. You are always allowed to pause between any two words. Never in the middle of a word. That's a basic morphological rule of Lojban.

It's non standard and thus requires learning something new, namely, the dotside.

When you are speaking, it makes no difference. The point is that the sequence "la.glékilaxorxes.cudárxi" has different interpretations depending on whether you use the dotside rule for cmevla or the doilalaila'a rule. If both rules were fully compatible there would heve never been so much discussion about the issue.

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2014-09-25 19:32 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why would one put a dot before a gismu?

Only to prove a point, as far as I can see. You are always allowed to pause between any two words. Never in the middle of a word. That's a basic morphological rule of Lojban.

It's non standard and thus requires learning something new, namely, the dotside.

When you are speaking, it makes no difference.

in speaking yes. in writing pause here is non standard. why not just "space"?

 

The point is that the sequence "la.glékilaxorxes.cudárxi" has different interpretations depending on whether you use the dotside rule for cmevla or the doilalaila'a rule. If both rules were fully compatible there would heve never been so much discussion about the issue.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Jorge Llambías]

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

in speaking yes. in writing pause here is non standard. why not just "space"?

Just to make the ambiguity more clear. Let mi give you another example where you can't complain about the dots:

 la .angélilaxorxes. cu darxi

(Good thing I'm pro-dotside with these examples.)

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2014-09-25 19:52 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

in speaking yes. in writing pause here is non standard. why not just "space"?

Just to make the ambiguity more clear. Let mi give you another example where you can't complain about the dots:

 la .angélilaxorxes. cu darxi

so cmevla can have no stress?

(Good thing I'm pro-dotside with these examples.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Jorge Llambías]

Stress in cmevla is completely free. They can have any number of stressed syllables, including none.

Conectado por Motorola

Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> escribió:

[Romaji ####]

Well, It's Japanese. I don't have a D sound there.

[Ian Johnson]

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Romaji #### <nxt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, It's Japanese. I don't have a D sound there.

It actually doesn't have {j}, either. The "ji" kana is pronounced {dji} in Lojban's morphology.

[Romaji ####]

Uh...

I'm not getting the whole argument here

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[Romaji ####]

Ah. let me correct that

[Pierre Abbat]

On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 21:34:36 'John E. Clifford' via lojban wrote:
> Drat, have they changed the rules again for the Lord knows how manieth time?
> It has been, from time to time, that *anything* preceded by {la .} and
> followed by{.}, with no intervening pause was a name, including some rather
> messy sentences, the names of books or Indians (He is so fierce his enemies
> are afraid of even just his horses.). What is the rule this week?

You don't need a pause in {la selterpa xirma ponse}. (The original name was
compressed, leading to the misleading translation "Man Afraid of his Horses".)
You need a pause only after a cmevla, before a cmevla (in dotside), before a
word starting with a vowel, and in some cases of cmavo with 'y' in them or
stressed on the last syllable.

On Thursday, September 25, 2014 11:28:40 selpa'i wrote:
> Am 25.09.2014 01:17, schrieb Romaji ####:
> > Or it could be {mi'e la .romajih. mu'o}, right?
>
> The closest to "h" is {x}, so you could go with {romajix}. (Isn't your
> name pronounced more like {romadji} though?)

From what I've read about Japanese phonetics, /dʒ/ and /ʒ/ have fallen
together, as have /dz/ and /z/ (allophones of /d/ and /z/ before /i/ and /u/),
but /tʃ/ and /ʃ/ and /ts/ and /s/ have not. They are still distinguished in
kana though.

Since this is a beginner's question, shouldn't it be on the beginners' list?

Pierre
--
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

[Romaji ####]

Where is the beginners list?

[Gleki Arxokuna]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lojban-beginners

or send an email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com