use-mention errors

[MorphemeAddict]

Do speakers of Lojban commit use-mention errors? I understand that the reason for the distinction between "lo prami" and "zo prami" is to avoid precisely this kind of problem, but is it working? 

stevo

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[Michael Turniansky]

   AFAIK, I never commit use-mention errors in lojban.  Where have you seen otherwise?

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[gleki.is...@gmail.com]

Em domingo, 28 de janeiro de 2018 14:26:51 UTC+3, stevo escreveu:

Do speakers of Lojban commit use-mention errors?

From my experience newcomers quickly stop making them once they learn what {lo} and {zo} mean and learn type signatures of verbs.

And in general most errors come from insufficient knowledge of vocabulary.

This error is also relevant to raising, which is dealt with in CLL.

[John E Clifford]

After 60 some years of trying to teach the distinction and its importance, I am willing to be that Lojbanist today (as back in the ‘80s and ‘90s) still make the mistake regularly.  The acid test seems to be in the frame “My name is...”, where “My name is John” is the usual (i.e., wrong) response (we pass over the number of times that they include ‘la’ in the answer).  I suspect that almost no one still falls for “cats contain four letters”, but more complex cases -- just when making the distinction is important -- are probably still messed up as often as not.

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[Gleki Arxokuna]

2018-01-28 17:13 GMT+03:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban <loj...@googlegroups.com>:

After 60 some years of trying to teach the distinction and its importance, I am willing to be that Lojbanist today (as back in the ‘80s and ‘90s) still make the mistake regularly.

Well, by Lojbanists I meant only people who practice text conversations in IRC chat. No stats from me (no parsers to detect wrong typing/nonsense yet)

 

 The acid test seems to be in the frame “My name is...”, where “My name is John” is the usual (i.e., wrong) response (we pass over the number of times that they include ‘la’ in the answer).  I suspect that almost no one still falls for “cats contain four letters”,

What did it suppose to mean?

 

but more complex cases -- just when making the distinction is important -- are probably still messed up as often as not.

On Sunday, January 28, 2018, 7:32:53 AM CST, <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

Em domingo, 28 de janeiro de 2018 14:26:51 UTC+3, stevo escreveu:

Do speakers of Lojban commit use-mention errors?

From my experience newcomers quickly stop making them once they learn what {lo} and {zo} mean and learn type signatures of verbs.

And in general most errors come from insufficient knowledge of vocabulary.

This error is also relevant to raising, which is dealt with in CLL.

 

I understand that the reason for the distinction between "lo prami" and "zo prami" is to avoid precisely this kind of problem, but is it working? 

stevo

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[MorphemeAddict]

I just watched Daniel Dennett's video on reverse-engineering religion, and he mentions use-mention errors a lot toward the end of it. I knew that "zo" was meant to avoid this problem, and I was curious how well it works. 

According to gleki (talking about only fluent speakers on IRC), it works pretty well. 

According to John (talking more generally), maybe it hasn't seen its full potential. 

stevo

[Michael Turniansky]

  A funny textbook example of use-mention error came up today in English (well, Yeshivish) in our Talmud study.  We are studying the tractate of "Avodah Zorah" ("Idol Worship"), and our rabbi said, "Sometimes, when you feel excitement building in you and you don't know what it is, it's 'Avodah Zorah'" (https://youtu.be/zbg4xenUuuM?t=1048) He immediately retracted it, because although he meant "di'inaiku do cinmo lo banro terfra be ne'i do ku gi'e  na djuno lo du'u by du makau .i by nu co'e la'e lu nu malceisni cesri'isi'a li'u " but it sounded like he meant "li'o by za'i malceisni cesri'isi'a"

               --gejyspa

  

[MorphemeAddict]

I looked up all the words in your Lojban, but I can't quite figure out the distinction you're making.

The Hebrew in the video was fun to listen to, too. (I don't understand it, either.)

stevo

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[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 9:30:09 PM EST MorphemeAddict wrote:
> I looked up all the words in your Lojban, but I can't quite figure out the
> distinction you're making.

"la'e lu <phrase> li'u" refers to a book or the like whose title is "phrase".

> The Hebrew in the video was fun to listen to, too. (I don't understand it,
> either.)

It sounds to me like an American accent on Ashkenazi pronunciation. My
pronunciation is rather different, and I have some trouble understanding
Ashkenazi. But I heard "zabne" or some such "zbn" word in a passage relating
to buying/selling; that word is Aramaic. "Akum" is a Hebrew acronym meaning
"Worship(er) of Stars and Constellations". Like "avoda" (which is the first
word in the acronym), it begins with ayin, which I pronounce. כרע קרע קרא are
all different as I pronounce them.

Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.

[MorphemeAddict]

I pronounce those three all the same, but I haven't really studied Hebrew since college in the mid-80s.

stevo

[Michael Turniansky]

  I didn't say Hebrew, I said "Yeshivish" for a reason.  Pierre is right.  Most of the non-English in that video was Aramaic (with an American-accented Ashkenazi pronunciation).  The Talmud is made up of two parts, Mishnah (which is Hebrew, although a later Hebrew than Biblical Hebrew, c. 100 CE), and Gemorah (around 200-400 years later), written in Aramaic (Babylonian dialect).  Although of course the Bible is often quoted, in its original Biblical Hebrew.  And sprinkled throughout his (mostly English) Yeshivish is Yiddish, such as vaiter ("next, going on...") akin to the German weiter) or rabOSai (gentlemen) from the Hebrew raboTAI , etc.

                            --gejyspa

[Michael Turniansky]

  Oh, yeah, and forgot to add other stuff, like the commentaries on the Talmud, usually written in medieval Hebrew, such as (most famously) Rashi, who sometimes throws in Old French for good measure. 

[MorphemeAddict]

Thanks for the correction. 

stevo