CLL help: add jbovlaste words

[Robin Lee Powell]

We need all of these to be in jbovlaste for the glossary generation.

If any of them are flat-out invalid, let me know and I'll mark them
as such in the source.

NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "bisycla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "blakanla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "blaselkanla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "blokle" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "blolei" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "bridyvalsi" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "bridyvla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "brivalsi" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "brudi" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "cagyce'u" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "calkyguzme" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "cidjrspageti" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "cinctu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "cipnrstrigi" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "cladakfu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "cmacrnintegrale" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "cmacrntegrale" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "dadgreku" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "djinrnintegrale" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "donta'a" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "fetsygau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "ge'urzdani" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "ge'uzda" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "gekmau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "gerkyzda" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "gerkyzdani" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "gerselzda" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "gerzdani" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "gicmu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "gisnu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "gizmu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "gripau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "grutrceraso" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "integrale" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "kambla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "karcykla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "kismu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "klamau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "krecau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "labmau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lamgri" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lange'u" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lantro" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "likygau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "likyri'a" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "livgyterbilma" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangir" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangirz" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangirzu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangri" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangygir" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangygirz" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangygirzu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangygri" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybaugir" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybaugirz" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybaugirzu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybaugri" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lo'ikle" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lo'irlei" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangir" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangirz" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangirzu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangri" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangygir" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangygirz" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangygirzu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangygri" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbaugir" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbaugirz" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbaugirzu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbaugri" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lotkle" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lotlei" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "mampa'u" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "manskapi" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "mi'erxanpli" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "minkemxanpli" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "mudysiclu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "naknykemcinctu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "naknykemcinctuca" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "naknykemcinsyctu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "naknykemcinsyctuca" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nakykemcinctu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nakykemcinctuca" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nakykemcinsyctu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nakykemcinsyctuca" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nalbrablo" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nalmle" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nelcymau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nilkla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "normle" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nunctikezgau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nunji'a" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nunkalte" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nunkilbra" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nunklama" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nunpinxe" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nunsoidji" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nunte'a" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nunterji'a" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "pacraistu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "pevrisnyjelca" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "posydji" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "rairgugde" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "ricrxaceru" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "risnyjelca" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "ro'inre'o" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "rokre'o" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "saktrxaceru" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "segi'u" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "segu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "segu'u" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "seju" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "seldzukla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "selgekmau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "seljdasku" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "selkanla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "selkemdzukla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "selklamau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "selnelcymau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "selselgekmau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "selseljdasku" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "selti'i" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "selzda" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "seu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "sikcurnu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "soidji" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "spatrkoka" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "spraile" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "tarmrnintegrale" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "terci'e" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "tergusni" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "terkakpa" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "terklamau" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "terlantroge'u" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "ti'ifla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "tricrxaceru" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "turdu'i" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "velmikce" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "xancypliminde" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "xanmi'e" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "xanplimi'e" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "xaskemcakcurnu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "xasycakcurnu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "xelklama" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "xismu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "zernerkla" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "zilpavypinxe" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "zilrelselpinxe" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "zuljamfu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "zunlyjamfu" FOUND!
NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "zunlyjma" FOUND!

--
http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li'u

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2015-07-19 11:10 GMT+03:00 Robin Lee Powell <rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org>:

We need all of these to be in jbovlaste for the glossary generation.

If any of them are flat-out invalid, let me know and I'll mark them
as such in the source.

brudi

gicmu

gisnu

gizmu

kismu

xismu

And will never be since all of them clash with already existing words.

As for {seu} it should be written as {se .u} (two words) although to JVS it will probably get as {se u} without the dot.

--
http://intelligence.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li'u

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[Spheniscine (la zipcpi)]

On Sunday, July 19, 2015 at 5:05:43 PM UTC+8, la gleki wrote:

As for {seu} it should be written as {se .u} (two words) although to JVS it will probably get as {se u} without the dot.

uesai cylyly xa'o se bangu la .e'ulojban. vau zo'o

[Spheniscine (la zipcpi)]

brudi

{brudi} doesn't clash with anything, but probably wasn't actually used in a meaningful manner? 

[Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG]

On 7/19/2015 4:10 AM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> We need all of these to be in jbovlaste for the glossary generation.
>
> If any of them are flat-out invalid, let me know and I'll mark them
> as such in the source.

A high percentage of those come from the lujvo-making examples, and it
doesn't really make sense to define them in jbovlaste. They are not
"flat-out-invalid" but rather are allowed but dispreferred forms. The
scoring algorithm tells which are less-preferred, and I'm pretty sure
the text makes it evident as well, so I'm not sure that any special
marking is needed.

In the following, only one cmene and one lujvo in the first bunch are
used (lojbangirz being the name-form that has been used the longest),
and all of the second bunch are equivalent to the shortest one.

If people insist on putting a definition in jbovlaste, a "see [preferred
form]" would be the best approach, ISTM

> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangir" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangirz" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangirzu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangri" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangygir" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangygirz" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangygirzu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybangygri" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybaugir" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybaugirz" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybaugirzu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "logjybaugri" FOUND!

> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangir" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangirz" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangirzu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangri" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangygir" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangygirz" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangygirzu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbangygri" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbaugir" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbaugirz" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbaugirzu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "lojbaugri" FOUND!

> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "naknykemcinctu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "naknykemcinctuca" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "naknykemcinsyctu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "naknykemcinsyctuca" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nakykemcinctu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nakykemcinctuca" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nakykemcinsyctu" FOUND!
> NO JBOVLASTE DEFINITION FOR "nakykemcinsyctuca" FOUND!

lojbab

[la durka]

The only one that's "flat-out invalid" according to la camxes is *{seu}. And where is it mentioned in the Book anyway? "grep -r seu chapters" comes up empty. But there is "<valsi>se.u</valsi>" in chapter 14. Is the lookup script somehow broken WRT pauses?

However, gicmu/gisnu/gizmu/kismu/xismu clash with {gismu}. The only other gismu in this list is {brudi}, which was used as an example of a non-clash.

As for the others, they seem to be:

1. multiple words: e.g. {segu} (and also {se.u} if that's what it is). I wouldn't be against adding definitions for these, since there are plenty of defined cmavo clusters already.

2. clashing gismu examples: these should be marked invalid; I dunno what to do about {brudi}.

3. lujvo/fu'ivla algorithm examples: I agree with Bob that these don't really belong in JVS. Is there a way to mark them "examples" but not "invalid" in the source? If not, I suppose defining them as "alternate form of {x}" is an okay alternative.

4. possibly some legitimate examples -- I haven't looked through carefully yet.

mu'o mi'e durkavore

[Robin Lee Powell]

Note that the stressed vowel of the gismu was considered sufficiently
distinctive that two or more gi smu may differ only in this vowel; as an
extreme example,

<valsi>bradi</valsi>,
<valsi>bredi</valsi>,
<valsi>bridi</valsi>, and
<valsi>brodi</valsi> (but fortunately not
<valsi>brudi</valsi>) are all existing gismu.</para>

^^ that.

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 02:01:05PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President
and Founder - LLG wrote:
>
> In the following, only one cmene and one lujvo in the first bunch
> are used (lojbangirz being the name-form that has been used the
> longest), and all of the second bunch are equivalent to the
> shortest one.

What's the in-use lujvo form?

Can someone make entries for nakykemcinctu , lojbangirz , ^^ and
whatever Bob's answer to that question is?

[Alex Burka]

Done, assuming the answer is {lojbangirzu}. Feel free to quibble with my definitions for {nakykemcinctu}.

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[Robin Lee Powell]

Thanks!

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[Bob LeChevalier]

On 8/17/2015 9:32 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> Thanks!
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 03:54:13PM -0400, Alex Burka wrote:

>> Done, assuming the answer is {lojbangirzu}. Feel free to quibble with my definitions for {nakykemcinctu}.
>>
>>
>> On August 17, 2015 at 6:16:43 AM, Robin Lee Powell (rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org) wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 02:01:05PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President
>> and Founder - LLG wrote:
>>>
>>> In the following, only one cmene and one lujvo in the first bunch
>>> are used (lojbangirz being the name-form that has been used the
>>> longest), and all of the second bunch are equivalent to the
>>> shortest one.
>>
>> What's the in-use lujvo form?
>>
>> Can someone make entries for nakykemcinctu , lojbangirz , ^^ and
>> whatever Bob's answer to that question is?

I just saw this, and Bob's answer is "I don't know".

I don't think I have ever actually used a lujvo form for this concept,
and I don't know what others have used. The CLL text does, however, say
that the lowest algorithm score is for “lojbaugri” and barring any usage
history to the contrary, IMHO, the best scoring word should have a
dictionary entry, even if it only points to some word that is preferred
in usage. Someone who knows the algorithm will try to look it up based
on the scoring.

Back when I was planning the dictionary, I actually wanted up to three
entries: the best scoring one (for someone who knows the algorithm, but
wants to check the definition/place structure), the fully-expanded form
"lojbybangygirzu" (for someone who doesn't know the rafsi) if it is
different, and any form that is preferred in usage to those two.

I understand that the current concept for jbovlaste would make it hard
to enforce creating all three entries (though I can imagine a software
approach that might be used to generate the algorithmic and fully
expanded forms with cross-reference pointers to the word-form which is
defined, if they do not already exist for a given word. This might even
be a problem with the current jbovlaste, since I suspect that someone
currently could add a different form of a lujvo with a different
definition, and that error would not be detected. (But that isn't a CLL
production issue).

lojbab

lojbab

[Spheniscine (la zipcpi)]

I do prefer brivla over cmevla for Lojban-derived names, and if I myself were to refer to the LLG with a brivla, I would probably use {la lojbangri}. It's shorter than {lojbangirzu}, but uses -ban- instead of the lower-scoring -bau- for better assonance with "Lojban" and the common cmevla.

[Alex Burka]

Okay, I will just add the lowest-scoring version. Any dictionary interface worth its salt (including the two currently popular ones) can normalize a lujvo to lowest-score-form and find the definition.

On Aug 19, 2015 8:51 AM, "Spheniscine (la zipcpi)" <sphen...@gmail.com> wrote:

I do prefer brivla over cmevla for Lojban-derived names, and if I myself were to refer to the LLG with a brivla, I would probably use {la lojbangri}. It's shorter than {lojbangirzu}, but uses -ban- instead of the lower-scoring -bau- for better assonance with "Lojban" and the common cmevla.

--

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2015-08-19 15:55 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka <dur...@gmail.com>:

Okay, I will just add the lowest-scoring version. Any dictionary interface worth its salt (including the two currently popular ones) can normalize a lujvo to lowest-score-form and find the definition.

The currently popular web ones are jbovlaste.lojban.org, vlasisku.lojban.org and la sutysisku and none of them can redirect to the lowest score. apart from the fact that this all is totally unrelated to CLL (any number of non-lower score defs can be added to jbovlaste to complete CLL's dictionary autogeneration)

[Alex Burka]

Huh, I was sure they could. Anyway the functionality is in there since the IRC bots do it so we should add it to the web interfaces. (And the main jbovlaste site is a great dictionary but not an "interface worth its salt"!).

--

[Alex Burka]

{lojbangirzu} is the one I used in my verse of "lo jbobau cu mo". Anyway there is now an entry for {lojbaugri} as well.

On August 19, 2015 at 8:51:50 AM, Spheniscine (la zipcpi) (sphen...@gmail.com) wrote:

I do prefer brivla over cmevla for Lojban-derived names, and if I myself were to refer to the LLG with a brivla, I would probably use {la lojbangri}. It's shorter than {lojbangirzu}, but uses -ban- instead of the lower-scoring -bau- for better assonance with "Lojban" and the common cmevla.