Moving head adjust saved positions - workflow?

[o865324]

How is everybody adjusting pan/tilt positions "on the night"?

I have some pan tilt "positions" defined as separate grids.
Examples - Audience, Ceiling, Floor. These can be set once and will not change.

I would also like to have some positions that would need tweaking every time - such as "guitarist", "singer" - probably 5 to 10 scenes max.

I want to use duplicated grids, in case I change the layout in the future, so I can't store pan tilt values in each grid.

I've seen some threads that say put power sources on each attribute in each grid and adjust it manually. That means Pan and Tilt for 8 movers * each scene, so 160 values to tweak!

I don't have time to do that when setting up to play as a band. I don't even have a proper keyboard mouse or large monitor connected to the PC that runs Lightjams. I'd have about 5 minutes to do any lighting tweaks.

I'd love to get to a workflow that lets me press a button on a Korg NanoKontrol to bring up each of the 10 scenes, then use the slider and knob for pan and tilt for each mover or group of movers, and then press another button to save the scene layout.

Can lightjams do anything like this?

If not, then it probably wouldn't be too difficult to create this workflow externally in my VST host and just bring in the PT values via MIDI, but it would be nice to do it all within Lightjams.

The grand plan is to be able to recall a position, and then run an effect on that position (eg a circle) as another grid. So position and movement are separated.

[Mathieu]

It looks like you're looking for the offset and invert parameters in the patch. Before the show, you can adjust the moving heads in the patch and offset them to be at the right positions. The start point of all pan&tilt effects will be automatically adjusted.

You could also use master grids (but I think you already do). This way, you only need to adjust the masters. This is the way to separate movements from positions. You can set the pan&tilt min and max using the attributes in the master grids, which is faster than adjusting sources.

[o865324]

On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 02:12:54 UTC+1, Mathieu wrote:

It looks like you're looking for the offset and invert parameters in the patch. Before the show, you can adjust the moving heads in the patch and offset them to be at the right positions. The start point of all pan&tilt effects will be automatically adjusted.

You could also use master grids (but I think you already do). This way, you only need to adjust the masters. This is the way to separate movements from positions. You can set the pan&tilt min and max using the attributes in the master grids, which is faster than adjusting sources.

That might work, I'll try it. I think you're saying that if I have to add a new fixture, then I'll need to set the new fixture to the correct positions on each grid anyway, so there is no point these grids being duplicates, they might as well be masters?

It would be nice to have 2 levels of master grid I think - one purely for physical layout that still lets us set the pan tilt or other values on the duplicates? And one as you have it now,

[Mathieu]

If you want to be able to update the "guitarist" position only once, then you create a grid named "guitarist position" and you put the pan&tilt attributes at the desired positions (only pan&tilt attributes, no other attributes!). You activate this grid whenever you want the "guitarist" position. Do that for all specific positions (singers, etc.). Think of these grids as position presets or position palette.

It's a good reason to not mix different types of attributes all in the same grid. Otherwise you'd not be able to activate the guitarist position while running a rainbow effect, for example. Or you'd need to create all possible combinations of positions and color effects by creating a lot of grids (10 positions and 10 color effects would need 10x10=100 grids). Instead, you should only create 10 position grids and 10 color grids and activate one position grid and one color grid at each step on your sequencer grid.

[jur1...@gmail.com]

My way.....think it's an easy and good workflow

for 1 specific point you have 2 mastergrids   ......one for Tilt and one for pan

example: spot Keyboarder:     I build a Grid that has all movers inside for this specific Pan Position  (later if you maybe change equipment you do it here in one grid and have it automaticaly in all other grids )

 

[jur1...@gmail.com]

This is my testfolder.....

[jur1...@gmail.com]

important is to know how many variable positions you need and build the grids in the master 

then it is only copying .....otherwise you have to do some hand working

So I just need to change the attributes in the corresponding master table maybe open PAN45° .....and adjust my scannerPan and Movers pan for this case

[jur1...@gmail.com]

my Cantabile Projekt I'am working on

every day I change things but the Framework stays.....

so here 1. , 2. and   3.    are all calling the same masterpositions  but in linked grids always only 1 part is activated and other sources deleted

to reach that it works it is important to set the right precedences 

[o865324]

Hi Juergen, can you share a screenshot of one of your position grids please Are you using power sources to set the pan/tilt values, or the attributes directly?

If you are adjusting the attributes directly, then this will not be a master grid. So my point is that if you then move fixtures around physically, or add new fixtures, then you have to go into all those grids and update them. Yes?

[jur1...@gmail.com]

there is not much to see......

example a Pan grid:       Group of scanners     >>> 1 Source

                                       1. Group of heads      >>> 1 Source 

                                       2. Group of heads      >>> 1 Source

-----then 

                               

                               

 

[jur1...@gmail.com]

...sorry

 

                               

                               

 

[jur1...@gmail.com]

Then i only put this two Links to 1 Grid and I have the first position......

The same I do only for the scanner 

1. I copy the complete Masterpositionfolder (but with all positions you need - maybe 15 )

2. I delete all sources expect spanner --- thats all --- so I have the reference to my Master

3. ..now add  ID#s for scanner positions and set a higher precedence then the Master so you can everytime Override your Masterscene with single devices

[Mathieu]

I think Juergen uses static positions. In your case, when you say you want positions for the singer and guitarist, do you mean static positions (heads pointing at one specific position) that you adjust once before the show or you want to run effects around the singer (meaning not a fixed position but a range using the min&max)?

[jur1...@gmail.com]

when adding new devices you only have to delete the sources in reference-grids

but settings for pan tilt you do only in the master

i think there is no better way...

[o865324]

Let's assume Static positions that I adjust once before the show.

So one grid called "point at guitarist" with all 8 pan attributes, and all 8 tilt attributes each attribute set with min&max.

Like this. But this cannot be a master grid, so if I ever change the layout I would have to manually go to this grid and do the change, and also to all the other grids such as "point at singer"

[o865324]

Actually, let me backtrack!

There are 2 ways I know of to set positions.

1. To have a grid with pan and tilt attributes and set min and max to be the same. No power sources needed. This way I cannot use duplicates of a master grid to set different positions.
2. To have a grid with pan and tilt attribute and to put power sources with the correct power for the position I want. This way I CAN use duplicates of a master grid to set different positions.

I therefore want to use option2.

My original question was on whether there was an easier way to adjust the power sources on option 2 grids on the night.

[Mathieu]

>> To have a grid with pan and tilt attributes and set min and max to be the same. No power sources needed. This way I cannot use duplicates of a master grid to set different positions.

You create this grid to contain all the pan&tilt attributes but you don't really care about the layout. So reusing it isn't really useful. And anyway, you need to edit all your static position grids when adding a new moving head. So even if all static position grids were linked, you'd still need to edit each one. 

Another benefit of this method is that you can use the quick position tool on the right when you select the pan&tilt attribute of a moving head. 

Also, do you really use all moving heads in each static positions? I mean, you could use 2-3 moving heads to point at the singer, another 2-3 for the guitarist, etc. Otherwise, the remaining of the stage will be pretty dark if you use all the moving heads for one target...

[jur1...@gmail.com]

The source only activates the tilt .....

but the values I adjust with the Attribute-Slider

so with deleting sources in slave-grids this device is automaticaly inactive

[Mathieu]

If you want to see a (surely) overkill way of automatically computing the pan&tilt to point at a specific position, look at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lightjams/qTcKKxFWAFg/wrFVpnz0i-QJ

The idea is to create a 2D representation of your moving heads and let Lightjams computes the needed pan&tilt of each moving head to point at a target. In the sample, the target is moving but in your case, you could change the target with your sequencer grid.

And you can duplicate the 2D representation (layout) grid to use it for your effects.

[jur1...@gmail.com]

so maybe the 45° angle ist to small for this position I can adjust it there for all devices

[jur1...@gmail.com]

is this the Hellfire algorythm ?......The Lightjam - Target Capture System ?

[Mathieu]

Ha ha! Yes, Lightjams was initially a software to control ballistic missiles ;) However, the client thought that it was too complicated.

[o865324]

I was actually playing with that project yesterday and was planning to start a thread on it. But not today! :-)

On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 20:28:28 UTC+1, Mathieu wrote:

Ha ha! Yes, Lightjams was initially a software to control ballistic missiles ;) However, the client thought that it as too complicated.

[jur1...@gmail.com]

In principle, a movinghead is nothing more than a photon cannon

[o865324]

Ok, here's a little test project. I've set up 2 grids for position - one using source, and one using the attribute min/max.

When I activate the movement grid I would like it to do a small PAN oscillation around the current position.

fixture A pan is currently at 90 degrees . I would like it to oscillate from approx 70 to 110 degrees
fixture B pan is currently at 270 degrees . I would like it to oscillate from approx 250 to 290 degrees

How do I do this?

[Mathieu]

It's very different than using static positions like discussed before. One way is providing a center parameter to your formula generating the oscillation (or even simpler, providing a min and max). In this case, you can use the global sliders to provide the parameters.

The thing is there's no way to specify a relative effect between grids. Each grid tells the absolute values of the attributes it contain. Then all grids are merged following HTP/LTP or an activation weighted average. 

You can do relative effects inside a grid though since all source power are added (one source can add, another can subtract). So you could add all your movement effects in the same grid and activate the sources corresponding to the movements you want (probably by controlling the source's range).

Another option is like the modified project file: a master grid setting the min&max and a linked grid doing the oscillation.

 

[jur1...@gmail.com]

I set all fix positions in master-directory

the rest is linked to this positions ....moves i do with sequencer ....in this case

[o865324]

What would the formula with the center parameter look like?

I am trying to see whether position can be completely separated from movement effect.

If I build up several grids with positions defined on them, Like in Juergen's example, or like in my "point at guitarist" example.

I'd then want to apply my grid containing the +/-20 degree slow pan movement on each mover on top of the current position WITHOUT having to reset the position.
I might then want to switch to another movement grid +/- 45 degree tilt movement with a +/-45 degree pan for example.

Is it possible to separate position from movement?


On Tuesday, 10 April 2018 23:19:17 UTC+1, Mathieu wrote:

It's very different than using static positions like discussed before. One way is providing a center parameter to your formula generating the oscillation.

Another is like the modified project file: a master grid setting the min&max and a linked grid doing the oscillation.

 

[Mathieu]

The formula would be similar to this project: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lightjams/tuu6lUv77WU/0Znqv_HyBwAJ

About separating positions and movements, it's separated when inside a grid: the attributes define the positions and the sources generate the waves. Maybe for what you want to do, it's better to go back at this level and put all your sources for the various movements inside one grid and activate the sources you want.

And you should think in terms of areas instead of center positions since you want to generate movements. So instead of thinking about defining a fixed position for the singer, define a singer's range using the min&max of the pan&tilt, where 50% power should go to the center. Then your sources will be able to generate oscillations and other kind of movements around the center.

[o865324]

Ok - I've got it working using your new slider grid attribute functionality.

I'm going to use sources for position, because I can store these easily in Cantabile and update them all very easily on the night using a Korg Nano Kontrol.

I can then add a pan and tilt movement source on each position grid driven from a slider.

Then each movement grid just updates that slider using 50% as a center.

See attached.

If this is what you were all telling me all evening, then I'm sorry it's taken so long to get it. It has been one of those days!

[Mathieu]

Wow, no I wasn't thinking about using a global slider this way! Very clever :)

That's why it's hard to tell what is the "best" way to do something. There's always another way yet to be discovered.

[o865324]

The slider method works ok in this case because it is a simple 1 source effect.

About separating positions and movements, it's separated when inside a grid: the attributes define the positions and the sources generate the waves.

I'm coming back to this comment and re-asking my question - Is it really impossible to build up a static position on one set of grids and have movement on 1 or more other grids which *modifies* the current position rather than replaces it?

For example if the pan on the position grid is 180deg, and the pan on the movement grid is 10deg then the output position becomes 190deg rather than 10deg.

Yes I know I can build this up on one grid, but that defeats the idea of separating movement and position grids.

[o865324]

For example if the pan on the position grid is 180deg, and the pan on the movement grid is 10deg then the output position becomes 190deg rather than 10deg.

What about making the formula on the movement grid get the current real PAN value grid.attributevalueat(x,y+1) and then using that as a centre value? Would that cause any kind of looping?

[jur1...@gmail.com]

A great Idea from you with slider using to manipulate the atributes...

and it should work with the system I posted...

the only difference to my model is that yours is manipulating the source and so it gives the posibility to work also with the moving range

in my model there was no moving range able because it was a fixed value.

so I will now change all attribute-values in my modell............and set the cantabile triggers to the sources .....

[jur1...@gmail.com]

....but if I have 12 different Center-Positions   and   also i will have it to set each group as standalone

then I have to built for each group 12 sliders to set the grid values and also to set min.max.

many sliders

[jur1...@gmail.com]

...then it is able to set all devices withouot move  down to stage

and let only 1 group (maybe scanners with higher precedence) move in the specific scanner-grid range

[jur1...@gmail.com]

....and also in specific position

[Mathieu]

Using grid.attributeValueAt causes a loop. It's meant to get the value of an attribute and compute the value of another one with it.

>>  Is it really impossible to build up a static position on one set of grids and have movement on 1 or more other grids which *modifies* the current position rather than replaces it?

Not possible. All grids compute the absolute values of the attributes. Like I said, you can put your sources right into the grid defining the layout. That's the most obvious and simple way! Then activate the source corresponding to the movement you want. 

[jur1...@gmail.com]

....Slider 2 is setting the center of move

[Mathieu]

Well, well, well. You two are giving me too many ideas! Look at this: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lightjams/CLQ4zoEeuOE/x0A6hZV9BAAJ. I'm still testing it...

[o865324]

On Wednesday, 11 April 2018 19:18:14 UTC+1, Mathieu wrote:

Well, well, well. You two are giving me too many ideas! Look at this: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lightjams/CLQ4zoEeuOE/x0A6hZV9BAAJ. I'm still testing it...

Oh Wow! Thank you Mathieu - that's perfect!

Juergen what shall we ask for next? :-P

[jur1...@gmail.com]

I said yes already.... you are my good of light.

Cool feature you have inserted there.

Many thanks

Cheers

Jürgen

[Mathieu]

I think for what you want to do, you could create one grid with all the pan&tilt attributes and use the relative options. Then for each effect, duplicate this grid with the link option. This way you'll only need to update one master grid when adding a new moving head.

[jur1...@gmail.com]

Maybe now a function that the spots automaticaly pointed to the Handy of the singer....

so he can walk to the audience and the locating app is controlling the movers......

just a joke .....  ;-)