Joomla Answers (A Stack Exchange Proposal)

[Nils Rückmann]

Hi, sorry for crossposting (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/joomla-dev-general/_fYLC9VBT6s).
But for the case there are people which signed for the cms list only, i thought it doesn't harm anybody.

We are trying to run a Joomla distribution of StackExchange and need as many people as possible to get fast to beta phase and above.

So, if you not signed in yet, it would awesome to do it now :)
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/34294/joomla

[Nils Rückmann]

We could really need some help :)

I've tried so reach the CLT, but without any luck so far.

Could somebody from the CLT oder PLT just say a word if you support this proposal ?
It would be very helpfull if we could add a banner or something on joomla.org or above the forum.

[Nick Savov]

Hi Nils,

Could you send me a private email about what the proposal is and I'll get
it to the right people to take a look?

Kind regards,
Nick

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[Paul Orwig]

I am committed - hey no snickers from the back of the room!

Thanks,

paul

[Andrew Eddie]

On Monday, 25 March 2013 06:58:49 UTC+10, Paul Orwig wrote:

I am committed - hey no snickers from the back of the room!

Heh.

Seriously though, and I don't want to sound like a downer, but we need to be realistic. Is this yet another communication channel to spread us even thinner on the ground than we already are, or will it be used to replace and consolidate one or more existing resources (in line with our "Simplify and streamline our project's communication channels" goal)? What's the business justification and who is the target audience? (hint: Drupal and Wordpress having it is not a good enough reason on its own).

I just want to understand. Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Nils Rückmann]

Hi Andrew,

in my opinion the StackExchange Distro should replace most partsof our forum and the general development list, which are both fine, but far away form being state-of-the-art. A Forum is to confusing and hard to manage, and the mailing list is not really end-user friendly.

So for me it still fits the "Simplify and streamline our project's communication channels"-goal, because we focus end-user or third-party developer questions in one place, which works as desired and without headache.

[Andrew Eddie]

On 25 March 2013 16:46, Nils Rückmann <syb...@gmail.com> wrote:

in my opinion the StackExchange Distro should replace most partsof our forum and the general development list, which are both fine, but far away form being state-of-the-art.

No argument there, but I'm not sure what Stackexchange gives us over Google Groups.

 

A Forum is to confusing and hard to manage, and the mailing list is not really end-user friendly.

I think "forum" style suits end users better. However, developers are definitely mailing list oriented (I don't want to fight with a web interface if I don't have to, but I like the option of having it).

How does stack exchange make either or both better? (I don't actually use the site heavily so I'm asking out of ignorance)

Also, Google Groups now has Q&A style formats (which we are trialling for the new Framework list) or you can have a "discussion" style not unlike the way forums.joomla.org are managed.  To be honest though, the only reason I don't use our own forum is because you have to visit the site to both see and enter replies (I am just not willing to fight with the thing).

I'm a bit concerned though that mixing end user, administrator and developers in one flat list (ok, there are tags, but still) will just make the signal-to-noise ratio unbearable.

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Ole Ottosen (ot2sen)]

Hi Andrew,

Being realistic, then I see it more as a matter of having good representation at a well established and well respected external ressource.

Stackoverflow and the Stackxchange network isnt a new channel. Our community already use it to find qualified higher level technical replies to their questions. The same questions are likely to "drown" in our huge support forum that is mostly user support focussed.

So I dont see it as another communication channel, but more of strenghtening and giving spotlight to an active external resource to the benifit of the community. Hopefully having a dedicated area there could help getting more of those using it today to become active volunteers at the j.org technical areas and contribute too, when guided.

Ole

 

--

[Andrew Eddie]

On 25 March 2013 17:06, Ole Ottosen (ot2sen) <ot2...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Andrew,

Being realistic, then I see it more as a matter of having good representation at a well established and well respected external ressource.

I don't have any problem with that. I mean, if the goal is simply to raise the profile of our presence on SO/SX that's fine.

However, if you are trying to solve the problem of the forum or developer ML's not being state of the art and difficult to use, that's an entirely different evaluation process. I'm just asking what is the problem that is being solved mainly because we are making rather significant plans with mailing lists at the moment and I'd much rather do this exercise "once". If all the Joomla developers are on SO/SX and not participating in our developer mailing lists, that's a scenario I'm going to want to know about.

I've given SX a cursory glance and it doesn't appear to offer anything better than Google Groups in terms of technology.  The major downside is I couldn't see a way of splitting user/administrator from developers.

 

Stackoverflow and the Stackxchange network isnt a new channel. Our community already use it to find qualified higher level technical replies to their questions. The same questions are likely to "drown" in our huge support forum that is mostly user support focussed.

Ok, but you might risk making SO/SX more noisy in the process if you don't also "fix" the problems in the forum as well. I mean, if people find they are getting better answers on SO/SX than on the forum there is a chance that you shift today's problems with the forum over to SO/SX tomorrow.

 

So I dont see it as another communication channel, but more of strenghtening and giving spotlight to an active external resource to the benifit of the community. Hopefully having a dedicated area there could help getting more of those using it today to become active volunteers at the j.org technical areas and contribute too, when guided.

Ok, that's fine.

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Bakual]

Actually, Stackoverflow is already used for Joomla related questions. It's not like Joomla Answers would introduce a new channel, it would just organize the existing ones a bit better. You could even argue that it would reduce them as currently there may be Joomla related questions on Stackoverflow, Superusers and Serverfault :-)

The big plus of Stackexchange is in my opinion that it allows to rate answers in a very clever system. And it doesn't need any admins or moderators, All is done by the community itself and only reputation decides who will have the rights to do what. Sounds like a good fit for a community project like Joomla :-)

Also people are different. While you like the mailing feature of this google group, I just can't stand it. I don't want mails flooding my inbox. I want to visit the page and see what's going on when I have the time to visit it. So I don't think we can have one solution that fits all. I think Stackexchange is excellent for question/answering type of communication. While a forum or mailgroup is better suited for discussions.

[Tonie]

What I very much like about StackExchange is the ability to mark good answers. One thing that I don't like is that it's English only. http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/13676/is-english-required-on-stack-overflow.

Tonie

--

[Andrew Eddie]

Ok, fair enough. So is the support for "I think this is a good idea" or is it more "I will actually use this"?

Regards,
Andrew Eddie

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[Andrew Eddie]

On 25 March 2013 17:48, Bakual <werbe...@bakual.ch> wrote:

Also people are different. While you like the mailing feature of this google group, I just can't stand it. I don't want mails flooding my inbox. I want to visit the page and see what's going on when I have the time to visit it. 

You should use "digest mode". I get the once-a-day summary for the CMS and General list and just peruse it to keep an eye on it (or I just delete them all if I've had no time) but I have the Platform/Framework lists on instant mail. Or, you can turn mail off and just visit the web page.  I do hear what you are saying though.  I'm on too many digest lists as it is.

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[JSamir]

I was active on most of the "platforms" used for Communication. Forums, Lists, Stackoverflow.

IMO, not even the combination of Forums/Lists reaches the the quality of the answers in SO. The whole system just works very well, its the best format for Q&A with all the features it has. I support this very much. 

Just for immediately seeing the best answer for a question its worth the effort (compared to searching the right anwer in a forum).

I really enjoy using SO and i avoid using the joomla forums as much as i can (very subjective).

Am Montag, 25. März 2013 06:37:38 UTC+1 schrieb Andrew Eddie:

[brian teeman]

As someone who uses the forum on a daily basis to support users and "give back" I can say that the forum is not ideal. Everyday we see the same questions asked over again because the search isn't great AND we see bad answers by well meaning people that just dont have the knowledge or ability to express their solution. 

The beauty of the stackxchange style are that 

1. Search is superb

2. Answers can be rated so the visitor knows which answer is good.

3. It is extremely well indexed by google

In addition a large % of the web community use stackxchange so it only makes sense that we are there although personaly I would prefer we adopted the stackxchange style on-property especially as there are joomla solutions already available such as EasyDiscuss http://stackideas.com/easydiscuss.html

In now way is this stackxchange style a communication channel or an equivalent to googlegroups and if you think it is then I would suggest you spend some time using stackxchange. 

[Andrew Eddie]

On 25 March 2013 19:11, brian teeman <joom...@googlemail.com> wrote:

In now way is this stackxchange style a communication channel or an equivalent to googlegroups and if you think it is then I would suggest you spend some time using stackxchange. 

Example:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sql-anywhere/A80vdYUxoCA

Apart from issues of style, what's the functional difference?

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Andrew Eddie]

And here's the "discussion" style you get these days:

http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!forum/docs

Regards,
Andrew Eddie

[Bakual]

If you commit to it, you are encouraged to also use it. But the proposal needs at least 200 supporters, of which are at least 100 which are already active on the StackExchange network. And there is some other score on recent activity which plays a role.
So I say we use both, people that think it's a good idea and some of them that actually use it :-)

[Bakual]

I tried this once as well, but didn't like how the email was formatted or something. I just opted to use the website directly which fits my usage style of the internet more.
Just to be clear, I think this is a good place for discussions and the email functionality certainly helps here. I just don't use the email part. That's the joy of options :-)

[brian teeman]

As web designers we all surely know that style greatly effects functionality

Aside from that sx offers tags, easy moderation and most importantly better search. 

 

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Bakual]

At first glance it looks similar in the basic function. However I think the reputation system is a big think in StackExchange, as it encourages users to provide good answers. It has a bit of playing a game and collecting levels :-)

But then, why would you want a maillist mimic the behaviour of a Q/A system when there is already a specialiced site excatly for this purpose? What would be the benefit of having it on GoogleGroups? Not saying Google is bad or anything like that.

Personally I like the design of StackExchange better as it offers a better overview on a first glance. All answers and comments are visible, nothing is hidden behind accordions. Comments are differentiated from real answers.

[Nils Rückmann]

Hi Brian, i totally agree with you that an own solution would be awesome, but a commercial extension sounds kind of wrong for me.
I don't think we should handle this ourselfs. If we "buy-in" a solution we are dependent and if not we have to bring up manpower which can really be used otherwise.

Besides this, we should not forget the network effect which the stackexchange-universe brings on.

[Nils Rückmann]

For me there is no question anymore if a Joomla-Distrubution of StackExchange will arrives or not.
The question is, if Joomla! will support it officially.

I spoke to Brad, Peter and Nick, but still without any answer or response. What brings another thing we should talk about later: Is there a central plattform for discussion about community-/CLT-related stuff ? The mailing list is closed for members only.

[Andrew Eddie]

On 25 March 2013 19:25, Bakual <werbe...@bakual.ch> wrote:

If you commit to it, you are encouraged to also use it. But the proposal needs at least 200 supporters, of which are at least 100 which are already active on the StackExchange network. And there is some other score on recent activity which plays a role.
So I say we use both, people that think it's a good idea and some of them that actually use it :-)

Ok, thanks. That's helpful.

Regards,

Andrew Eddie 

[Andrew Eddie]

On 25 March 2013 19:40, brian teeman <joom...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Aside from that sx offers tags,

Which GG has.

 

easy moderation

Tick

 

and most importantly better search. 

And Google should know a thing or two about that. But hey, if you prefer SX, that's fine, but I'm not convinced that it's incomparable with GG. 

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Nils Rückmann]

Fortunately it's not a big thing at the moment, but another pro for StackExchange should be the CC license on all answers and questions.

[Andrew Eddie]

On 25 March 2013 20:59, Nils Rückmann <syb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fortunately it's not a big thing at the moment, but another pro for StackExchange should be the CC license on all answers and questions.

So, ok, all these sites are a bit confusing for a noob (aka me - personal reflection). If I'm in a helping mood, how do I go about finding questions I want to answer? Or is this the point because it's all over the shop at the moment?

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Nils Rückmann]

The proposal is currently in the commitment-phase, so the only thing you can do is to commit ;)

The questions you are seeing are from the definition phase, when example questions are collected to give users an overview of what the proposal is about.

[Andrew Eddie]

On 25 March 2013 21:09, Nils Rückmann <syb...@gmail.com> wrote:

The proposal is currently in the commitment-phase, so the only thing you can do is to commit ;)

The questions you are seeing are from the definition phase, when example questions are collected to give users an overview of what the proposal is about.

Sorry, yes I worked that out. I was asking about SX and SO. So to get something comparable to this:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/joomla-dev-framework

I'd do:

http://stackexchange.com/search?q=joomla+framework, or

http://stackoverflow.com/search?q=joomla+framework

if I'm in a "browsing" mood?

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Nils Rückmann]

Sorry, i still don't get it.

The normal workflow is to set up an question. The search for duplicates and related questions is quite good (you will see it if you type your question).
And if you want to help i would recommend to watch the hottest or unanswered questions. For a specific topic you can use tags (q=[joomla]), which are mostly well defined as you can only set new tags if you have enough knowledge/reputation.

Hint: All StackExchange distrubutions have it own "meta" level for questions related to the distribution itselfs. You can reach these be using the subdomain "meta.*". Examples: http://meta.stackoverflow.com, http://meta.askubuntu.com or http://meta.drupal.stackexchange.com

[brian teeman]

We already use lots of commercial gpl extensions on joomla.org

[Donald Gilbert]

Andrew, I think the vetting process of Stack Exchange itself will deal with issues of "will this site get usage" or "will this drop off after it becomes official".

In order to even become an official site, you need to have an average of X amount of questions asked and answered on a daily basis, as well as show continued growth. I think you would be well served if you look at some of the guidelines here: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/49551/reverse-engineering

I use the Reverse Engineering proposal as an example, since our proposal isn't in that phase yet, but you get the idea. ~1500 visits per day and 15 new questions, and a 90% answer rate. Part of the process of getting the site it's own area is really building habits in people to use it. Those sneaky devils....

[Victor Drover]

What is the advantage compared to the existing forum?

Cheers,

Victor Drover

Founder and CEO, Anything Digital LLC (BBB Accredited)

Co-founder, Watchful.li

262-309-4140 

  @AnythingDig | @watchfulli

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[Fedir]

the advantage is the rating system that allow to pick up the good answer and skip the bad answer ....

the rating system is also an incentive for a people to leave a answer...

Понеділок, 25 березня 2013 р. 15:48:55 UTC+2 користувач Vic Drover написав:

[Brad Gies]

One of the huge advantages to me is that the best answer is always at the top. When I do a Google search for programming information, I skim the results and immediately go to the StackOverflow result if there is one, because it's normally the best answer I will find, and it's right at the top of the page (under the question).

It's also easy to figure out the skill level of the person who answered the question, and the search and Google results are MUCH better than any other site I use.

My 2 RMB ;)

Brad.

[Bakual]

Interesting. Actually I doubt we will success to fullfill this requirements without some bigger advertisment for the site. But we will see :-)

[Nils Rückmann]

What brings us to the point. Does Joomla! officially support the proposal ?

[Tonie]

Why should it? As much as it is a nice solution, this is more of a
strategical decision. Does the project want to use StackExchange? What
can it replace? What will it replace? In the end it's just another
option for getting Joomla support, like many, many others. These
resources are also not officially supported in any way.

Tonie

On 03/25/2013 03:44 PM, Nils R�ckmann wrote:
> What brings us to the point. Does Joomla! officially support the
> proposal ?

[Nils Rückmann]

Be official support i mean ads or something on joomla.org, especially on the forum.

[Nick Savov]

Hi Nils,

I did reply and I replied promptly :) Maybe you should check your spam
box in case it got filtered, accidentally.

Kind regards,
Nick

[Nick Savov]

p.s. I also know that Brad has acted on it and passed the word around.
Peter likely has as well within CLT.

[Nils Rückmann]

Hi Nick, thanks for your reply.
I have searched the conversation and found your answer. Sorry for that. It's the first time i tried to send a private message here on google and it's very confusing that the private messages are also part of the whole conversation.

In my opinion the Q&A should be the first shelter for every general question (mostly ask by third party developers or customers),
so it would be an alternative to the forum and the general mailing list. In fact the result of a well used and managed Q&A is more like a documentation. That's why i mentioned the CC license. We can use the answers to fill the docs and vice versa.

I don't think that we should use a Q&A for actual development on the the CMS or the Platform.

[Ofer Cohen]

Is the current forum (phpbb?) has features as SX? Add-ons?

Ofer Cohen

[Chris Davenport]

Anything brought into docs.joomla.org with one of the CC licenses (which one does StackExchange use by the way?) would need to be clearly flagged as being under a different license from the default Joomla Electronic Documentation License.

Chris.

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[Valentin Despa]

Hello,

Stackexchange from my point of view:

- users go there to solve their problems, people are already there and nobody told them to go there. They simply like the system.

- good seo, good positioning in search engines, very good search. The information is better organised and you can get to it easily

- if a question has a unclear title or contents, I can edit it, retag it, moderate it, etc etc

- the knowledge exchange is fast and reliable (I hate reading pages of forum posts or discussions on groups to find a simple answer and not knowing if the answer is the best one)

- stackoverflow users understand better why the Joomla proposal is needed

- people are encourajed to give complete and clear answers, not just posting links and giving general advice

- I am sharing there my knowledge and experience there because it's a modern environment from each user benefits

Kind regards,

Valentin Despa

[JSamir]

Just to make it clear:

I do not see SX as a replacement for the google groups (although most of the questions in the General Dev Group would fit in SX), more as a "much better" Forum. Everyone searching for anwers and who used both SX and the Joomla Forum can confirm, that SX just fits best for this purpose (Q&A, NOT discussions).

Am Montag, 25. März 2013 09:55:19 UTC+1 schrieb JSamir:

I was active on most of the "platforms" used for Communication. Forums, Lists, Stackoverflow.

IMO, not even the combination of Forums/Lists reaches the the quality of the answers in SO. The whole system just works very well, its the best format for Q&A with all the features it has. I support this very much. 

Just for immediately seeing the best answer for a question its worth the effort (compared to searching the right anwer in a forum).

I really enjoy using SO and i avoid using the joomla forums as much as i can (very subjective).

Am Montag, 25. März 2013 06:37:38 UTC+1 schrieb Andrew Eddie:

On Monday, 25 March 2013 06:58:49 UTC+10, Paul Orwig wrote:

I am committed - hey no snickers from the back of the room!

Heh.

Seriously though, and I don't want to sound like a downer, but we need to be realistic. Is this yet another communication channel to spread us even thinner on the ground than we already are, or will it be used to replace and consolidate one or more existing resources (in line with our "Simplify and streamline our project's communication channels" goal)? What's the business justification and who is the target audience? (hint: Drupal and Wordpress having it is not a good enough reason on its own).

I just want to understand. Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Andrew Eddie]

On 26 March 2013 21:06, JSamir <samira...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just to make it clear:

I do not see SX as a replacement for the google groups (although most of the questions in the General Dev Group would fit in SX), more as a "much better" Forum. Everyone searching for anwers and who used both SX and the Joomla Forum can confirm, that SX just fits best for this purpose (Q&A, NOT discussions).

Ok, so StackX et al people are going to do their own thing anyway, but is there a need to reconfigure the lists we have now? I've already reconfigured the Framework list to support Q&A style (the Platform list is about to be closed), so should we look at, for example, repurposing General for open discussion about any aspect of Joomla development (CMS, Framework, vision, roadmap, whatever), and converting CMS into a Q&A list for people developing on the CMS only?

Or, we could do a combined dev Q&A list with categories to split the CMS and Framework questions so all Q&A's are in the one general area?

Or, we could have just one development list with categories to split Q&A, discussions, working groups (JBS, web services that Chris is doing, etc and so on), etc.

Just throwing it out there.

 

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Nils Rückmann]

I think the mailinglists do a great job for actual development on the cms or platform, so why change a running system ? Even if i would love to see the workflow for feature proposals etc. to be optimized.
The Q&A proposal is about a place for users, administrators or developers who just want to ask something related to Joomla.
If it will be accepted, it will maybe replace the general dev list in the future, but there is no need to force it.

[Nick Savov]

You're welcome, Nils! No problem! Yes, the subjects are the same and
that hides single emails.

OK, change like that isn't going to happen over night. My suggestion is
to do things from the grassroots level, like you have been doing, but step
it up a notch. So far, I haven't seen the people who are in support of it
to start blogging about it. Each person who supports it, should also blog
on their own site about it and put up banners about it. You can also ask
the JCM editors to see if you can write an article about it in the
upcoming JCM issue. If each person that has committed to it, blogs about
it this week, you'd likely meet your goal this week even :) A JCM article
would also help get the word out farther.

Kind regards,
Nick

[Bakual]

That's a good idea to advertise on the own blog. I've added a news article on my extension site (www.sermonspeaker.net) about it. I'm not a big player here but maybe it helps :-)

I also tried to be active on StackOverflow and already got 300+ reputation in a few days. Doesn't seem to be that hard to count as an "active" member. I think this helps as well.

[Nick Savov]

Every little bit helps :) I haven't ever used Stack Exchange, other than
when I run across it Googling for PHP/HTML answers (via StackOverflow) or
something similar, but I'll give it a try sometime this week and see if I
can help out in the endeavor.

Cheers,
Nick

> That's a good idea to advertise on the own blog. I've added a news article
> on my extension site (www.sermonspeaker.net) about it. I'm not a big
> player
> here but maybe it helps :-)
> I also tried to be active on StackOverflow and already got 300+ reputation
> in a few days. Doesn't seem to be that hard to count as an "active"
> member.
> I think this helps as well.
>

>> > email to joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.

>> > To post to this group, send an email to

>> joomla-...@googlegroups.com<javascript:>.

[Andrew Eddie]

On 26 March 2013 23:58, Nils Rückmann <syb...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the mailinglists do a great job for actual development on the cms or platform, so why change a running system ? 

Because people are apparently getting better answers on StackX than here. We should be the best source of support, or at least strive to be. I guess the problem is we don't have "reputation" here and I've got to admit I think that's the elephant in the room that's actually driving this discussion … in my opinion.

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Mike Hamanaka]

I like the idea of the stack exchange Q/A for voting up or down questions and their answers, or feature requests.

I don't like how the Joomla forum is littered with old and out-dated information, and many links to extensions which are no longer available.

my 2 cents

Mike Hamanaka

Website Production 

Vertualize.com

Office:  310-564-6444

--

[Bakual]

Just looked at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/joomla-dev-framework/LbALkK1ifMo where Amy asked a question and someone (Amy?) selected an answer from Andrew as the best one. This shows a big disadvantage of this system here as the answer is taken out of the context of a discussion. You can't mix a Q/A system together with a discussion, it doesn't work well.

StackExchange doesn't allow discussions. There are comments which can be attached to an answer or a question, but the answers itself are always independant from each other. I think that's a fundamental difference to a forum or mailing list.

[Andrew Eddie]

On 27 March 2013 17:23, Bakual <werbe...@bakual.ch> wrote:

Just looked at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/joomla-dev-framework/LbALkK1ifMo where Amy asked a question and someone (Amy?) selected an answer from Andrew as the best one. This shows a big disadvantage of this system here as the answer is taken out of the context of a discussion.

Click "See this answer in its original position". If you subscribe by mail, it will be in the right order.

 

You can't mix a Q/A system together with a discussion, it doesn't work well.

So, what's happen here is this list has been archived for the last 2 years more or less. We've just swapped back and the new features don't translate well to the old messages. That one you show just go caught in the middle and/or it's one we picked on for experimentation. Besides, if we find a combination of buttons that works for those that participate in Framework development what does it matter?

 

StackExchange doesn't allow discussions.

I'm very happy for them, but that Google Group is not StackExchange and is in a transitionary period. If you don't want to use the Google Group - don't.

 

There are comments which can be attached to an answer or a question, but the answers itself are always independant from each other. I think that's a fundamental difference to a forum or mailing list.

StackExchange is neither of those anyway.

Look, I'm happy for the people that want to use StackExchange but I don't think poking holes in our mailing lists because they don't do it like StackExchange is helpful.

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Nils Rückmann]

Nobody wants to poke holes in our mailinglists. The Q&A is still what it is: questions and answers, no discussions.
Maybe it would help if we define the goals of the different places.
For me the cms dev list list ist still a place for discussing bugs/features/plans/etc. of the cms,
like the framework list is a place for doing the same (only with focus on the framework).
The Q&A instead is a place for all people who just want to ask something which is related to joomla.
Like i said before, in imy opinion the Q&A will be an alternative to the forum and maybe for the general dev list, but that's all. 

[Nils Rückmann]

Examples:

"I want to use Joomla the platform to build a webapp, how do i start?" => Q&A
"How does JCache works?" => Q&A
"I have a problem, xyz" => Q&A
"Should we remove Javascript (JHtml related) from the framework?" => mailing list
"New feature Jfoo, deprecates Jbar" => mailing list
and so on..

So it won't poke holes, it will help to focus the topic of our mailinglists. I can't count how many times i had to read Nick's "Sorry, I don't mean to step on any toes, but this list is for discussion of how to improve the CMS" ;)

[Andrew Eddie]

On 27 March 2013 19:37, Nils Rückmann <syb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Examples:

"I want to use Joomla the platform to build a webapp, how do i start?" => Q&A
"How does JCache works?" => Q&A
"I have a problem, xyz" => Q&A

I definitely want people asking those questions on the Framework or CMS lists as appropriate.

 

"Should we remove Javascript (JHtml related) from the framework?" => mailing list
"New feature Jfoo, deprecates Jbar" => mailing list
and so on..

Those are important as well. That's part of culture of the project itself. 

I would leave it as those people that are going to use StackX* anyway are welcome to do it, but I don't know that I've seen a good argument for relocating existing services exclusively to StackX* (like, you can *only* do Q&A on StackX sites).

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Nils Rückmann]

And what's about all questions in the forum ? Do you want to see those on the mailing lists too ?
I'm not really active on the plattform list, but as i understood the cms list only wants discussions which are related directly to the cms core and have the goal to improve the cms.

[Andrew Eddie]

On 27 March 2013 20:57, Nils Rückmann <syb...@gmail.com> wrote:

And what's about all questions in the forum ? Do you want to see those on the mailing lists too ?

I would prefer there to be no development questions or discussions at all on the forum. I actually thought we'd killed that off but I see some categories have grown back.

 

I'm not really active on the plattform list, but as i understood the cms list only wants discussions which are related directly to the cms core and have the goal to improve the cms.

That is the historical purpose of the CMS list, but it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. The PLT has been throwing around ideas about how we should best structure the mailing lists. I'm still undecided about what the best split is but I think I'm gravitating towards one mailing list for the CMS and one for the Framework being adequate (that is just my own opinion right this second). 

StackX can do whatever it wants with the users that support that method of engagement but I would not, at this moment in time (and I may change my mind), advocate closing down existing lists to move *to* StackX. If everyone is happy with a "you do your thing, we'll do ours" approach then we should move on. We could have written a significant amount of code documentation in the time we've been bouncing this topic around ;)

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[Donald Gilbert]

As a strange coincidence, Symfony is having this (almost) exact same discussion right now.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/symfony-devs/JaNoeYIkFqc/crriwWGmIF4J

They don't want google groups, they don't want stack exchange, they don't want to depend on ANY third part system. I haven't experienced the same problems Fabien is referring to.

P.S. I'm not saying we should do what Symfony does, I just found it interesting they were having the same conversation.

[Nils Rückmann]

Okay, it's a strange coincidence. But as i understand they want to focus all discussion at one place. But the Joomla Q&A should not be a place to contribute to the core (with code etc.). Just helping people who have questions about joomla related stuff.

[piotr_cz]

I agree here.
Stack Overflow is good thing to expose Joomla to public, at least to
users that don't want to register on forums and don't know about
mailing list.

It has lots of helpful things: markdown, point system, tags, option to
edit your comment etc

On the other hand it's Q&A, so for discussions it's more convenient to
use mailing lists.

[pe7er]

I answered your mail two days ago. 

I am not sure if this message was before or after that, so could you please check your spam box?

[Bakual]

I didn't want to say that this mailing list is bad. I was just under the impression that someone asked about what's in SX that couldn't be done here. And this was one point that jumped on me.

[pe7er]

Hi Nils,

I like solution-voting-systems like StackExchange: When I Google for Linux command line problems / questions, 

I frequently end up at http://stackoverflow.com/ (which is from StackExchange)

However, I have some issues with StackExchange for Joomla.

First of all IMHO Joomla should *not* be dependent on external websites and/or companies and their terms of service.

If we would start with a solution-voting-system, then I would opt to have it under joomla.org management and on our own servers.

Are there any well-developed solution-voting-systems that we can install and manage on our own servers?

Secondly, I do no know if a solution-voting-system would work in our Joomla community.

The Linux related questions & answers I find at http://stackoverflow.com/ are all about free of charge, open source solutions.

Our Joomla community has an ecosystem with free-of-charge and commercial Joomla extensions.

I foresee possible problems with the up & down voting...

I suppose that the majority of commercial open source software developers are honest people whom would not use unethical tactics,

but a minority might try to misuse the system in order to earn extra money.

Imagine this hypothetical solution-voting-system case:

Person A asks a Question: I have a website about guitars. what's the best CCK solution?

Person B responds: check out CCK2013, it is great!

Answer C: have you thought about CCK-another-version?

Answer D: I always use CCK-yet-another-version, it's great for piano websites!

Answer E: I have my own music website and use Pe7er's-CCK, it's awesome!

Next, "developer Pe7er" hires a team of people who up vote answer E (which is a commercial extension) and down vote all others.

I have no idea if, and how, StackExchange does secure its service against such unethical behaviour.

Do you have an idea how a solution-voting-system would work in a mixed ecosystem (with both free-of-charge and commercial solutions)?

How can we prevent misuse, and how much volunteer resources would it take to manage such a system?

Thanks,

Peter

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:24:44 PM UTC+1, Nils Rückmann wrote:

Hi, sorry for crossposting (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/joomla-dev-general/_fYLC9VBT6s).
But for the case there are people which signed for the cms list only, i thought it doesn't harm anybody.

We are trying to run a Joomla distribution of StackExchange and need as many people as possible to get fast to beta phase and above.

So, if you not signed in yet, it would awesome to do it now :)
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/34294/joomla

[Nils Rückmann]

Thanks Peter,

i must admit, that a well suited and self hosted solution would be great. I'm sorry to say that, but i really doubt that we can get an own Q&A in the next year. There will be discussions over discussions for the next months and maybe then we will pick a solution which will be rejected a year later.
One huge thing about StackExchange is, that is is really community driven.

About your example question "best CCK solution": That's the kind of questions which are closed soon width a link to the jed, as it is no question which can be answered.

[Nils Rückmann]

@Peter can't find anything. It's really creepy who google handles messages. Haven't i send you a message with g+ ?

We should really get some email addresses for the groups and maybe their leaders like c...@joomla.org or peter....@joomla.org 

[Andrew Eddie]

On 27 March 2013 23:27, Nils Rückmann <syb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Okay, it's a strange coincidence. But as i understand they want to focus all discussion at one place. But the Joomla Q&A should not be a place to contribute to the core (with code etc.).

Hang on. Are we talking about branding for people who already use StackX, or, are we saying that StackX should be the "official" Q&A site for the Joomla project as a whole? If the latter, that is a completely different discussion (and in that case, this is the wrong list to have the discussion).

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://learn.theartofjoomla.com - free tutorials and videos on Joomla development

[Nils Rückmann]

That's why the discussion started at the general dev list. I just wanted to post a hint on the cmslist, that there is a discussion, because it seems like not everbody who subscribed the cms list is also on general list. Maybe we need a place for discussion about the community ;)

[Andrew Eddie]

On 28 March 2013 08:12, Nils Rückmann <syb...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's why the discussion started at the general dev list. I just wanted to post a hint on the cmslist, that there is a discussion, because it seems like not everbody who subscribed the cms list is also on general list. Maybe we need a place for discussion about the community ;)

No, I mean that an official Q&A site would involve the whole LT and the wider community. It's not just confined to development, and, it's not a foregone conclusion that StackX would be the tool we pick for the official site anyway. 

Likewise, if you want to get an official Q&A just for development, that's actually ok to talk about here, but again it's not a valid assumption that we would just pick StackX.

Regards,

Andrew Eddie

[George Wilson]

Just a quick comment to post abut using StackX - that any extension builders (technically) cannot use code posted on it as any author submissions are made under a Creative Commons license and anyone who wants their extensions on JED (80%+ of people) need to post under a GPL license. That's quite a major disadvantage in my opinion and hasn't really been mentioned yet.

Having said that I do like SO and have already put my 'commit' in for it.

Kind Regards,

George

[Nils Rückmann]

Amy had a big point (unfortunately on the generals dev list). If he would have an Q&A on joomla.org, Joomla could use its ads.