Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 2 topics

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Me'irah

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Jun 6, 2014, 2:55:00 PM6/6/14
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Shalom
Laurie you raise a good point: finding out the reason behind someone's choosing cremation. 
I find that some folks decided to be cremated long ago, then learned about taharah, and decided that want that, too. I don't think we educate as well about burial as we do about taharah. 
Someone told me once they can't deal with the idea of worms eating them. Some, I think are afraid of cemeteries. I'm guessing that in a way, having an urn of "ashes" may feel like a way someone can hold on to their loved one. I have a friend whose teenage son on a bicycle was killed by an intoxicated driver. She kept his ashes by her bed for a very long time. 
Let's ask people, simply out of curiosity, "why cremation?" And see what we find out. It would make a good gamliel research project. 
Blessings rabbi Me'irah

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On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, jewish-...@googlegroups.com wrote:

Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics

    "Laurie Kurs" <bu...@usa.com> May 31 05:53AM +0200  

    Decipering the "Why" someone would choose cremation can be a crucial part of this scenario. IF the reason is solely economics....one could investigate local prices of cremation and compare to basic funeral fees. I just did, and in my neighborhood the costs are about the same. IF the reason is trying to be "GREEN", one could investigate how cremation actually impacts our air. If the "why" can be uncovered, then educated decisions will likely follow.I No judgments...just factual details.
     
    laurie
     
    i
     
    Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 at 1:49 PM
     
    From: Aptaker <rapt...@comcast.net>
     
    To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
     
    Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic
     
    No argument that education is important. But in the recent case in question (requesting tahara followed by cremation) I'm not impressed that the person lacks education, but rather the person has a thought out personal preference. If someone truly knows what tahara is, it's hard to imagine they don't also know the differences and implications between burial and cremation.
     
    Rich Aptaker
     
    From: "Me'irah" <rabbi...@gmail.com>
     
    To: jewish-funerals@googlegroup "s.com
     
    Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 7:35:58 PM
     
    Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic
     
    Dear Folks,
     
    These are tough issues, and I think it important to understand that different areas of North America have different Jewish communities. Here on the West Coast, San Francisco in particular, I think, it is quite a struggle to maintain traditions. In situations like this, I think we need to take every opportunity we can to EDUCATE…that, in part, is what Gamliel is training us for. Many people simply don't know there is another way… and to many, the compared prices of cremation and burial make a difference.
     
    I offered a 4 part series in my congregation about caring for the sick, taharah, burial, and the first year of mourning. It was very well received, and there has been follow up interest. So, I'm jus' saying, to mix in with our discouragement a good dollop of education…a way to be part of the solution. But I do believe it's much greater than we can fix. I also believe, if burial was cheaper than cremation, we would have a different situation on our hands.
     
    Blessings,
     
    Rabbi Me'irah
     
    415-379-4281 home
     
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    On May 27, 2014, at 3:59 AM, jewish-...@googlegroups.com wrote:
     
    Today's topic summary
     
    Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
     
    Taharah prior to cremation? [2 Updates]
     
    Taharah prior to cremation?
     
    "Laurie Kurs" <bu...@usa.com> May 26 07:02AM +0200
     
    I seem to recall that the question posed was about TAHARA....just Tahara
     
    Therefore...all the responses reflected that inquiry. But, I do have a sense that the answers given so far probably also reflect how the answers would be regarding shmira....
     
    Nowadays...with some people expressing untraditioanl views ... including the view of doing what one feels like, regardless of, in spite of, and contrary to what has been the traditions - is what opened this discussion in the first place.
     
    Another meaningful, helpful and sensible tradition is hitting the dust. Nowadays it is becoming almost commonplace for people to sit shalosh......if at all.
     
    Have we Jews really evolved to such a degree that we mourn less, grieve faster and 'bounce back" that even shalosh is often considered too inconvenient aka not necessary?
     
    For those chevre's - like mine - that hold to traditional values, minchag and halacha..... our responses to "go with the flow" will always be, a resounding, "no". It is just not for us.
     
    If our chevre is unwilling to do a tahara...we know the FD is free to call upon a different group - thererefore, we are relieved of doing what we think is inappropriate...
     
    We understand that chevres all over are free to do as their policies guide them. And for that reason, we can expect quite a divergence of opinion here. Answers across the whole spectrum!!!
     
    laurie
     
    Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 at 9:39 PM
     
    From: "'Ilene Rubenstein' via jewish-funerals" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
     
    To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
     
    Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Taharah prior to cremation?
     
    I have struggled with this question for several years. As a member of a chevra kadisha, it broke my heart when my father-in-law died and the family decision was to honor his wishes and have his body cremated. I was grateful for the beautiful service he was given (in our home) and that eased my pain.
     
    I haven't completely resolved my feelings, since I see the merits in both sides as they have been presented. However, I find it curious that the discussion seems to involve an all-or-nothing proposition that focuses exclusively on tahara with no mention of shmira. I can understand why a hevra, or some individual members, might not want to do a tahara prior to cremation, but what about at least providing comfort to the soul through shmira?
     
    -----Original Message-----
     
    From: jeanbermanmartens <jeanberm...@gmail.com>
     
    To: jewish-funerals <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
     
    Sent: Fri, May 23, 2014 4:22 pm
     
    Subject: [jewish-funerals] Taharah prior to cremation?
     
    I am part of a long-standing community Chevra (in Portland, ME). Recently we have received two requests for Taharah prior to cremation. Our policy subcommittee is wondering what other Chevras (those who would accept this request) do in this situation. Thanks for any input. Jean Berman (formerly Martens)
     
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    Kerry Swartz <kerry....@gmail.com> May 26 05:56AM -0700
     
    We are a community Chevra Kadisha that serves anyone along the Hewish
     
    spectrum of beliefs. We are also the Jewish funeral provider with a
     
    hearse and everything. The local Shuls run their own cemeteries but we
     
    provide the services and and in some cases, manpower, to complete a
     
    Minyan, fill a grave, prepare Shiva prayers, etc. When the question of
     
    cremation comes up, we simply don't do it or assist in the preparations
     
    for it. We can't serve our entire community (from Lubavitch to
     
    unaffiliated/secular) if we did. Interfaith burial isn't even on the table.
     
    But the pressure is there and the challenge to traditional approaches
     
    will inevitably cause some sort of change, whether it's a new group or
     
    people go elsewhere for the more liberal options being discussed. We're
     
    just simply guided by Halacha and tradition which makes these sorts of
     
    discussions easy for us, likely not so for those requesting it.
     
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    Rabbi Joe Blair <rabb...@hotmail.com> May 31 11:57PM -0400  

    I have to say that this is not a settled question where I live. One Chevrah
    will not do it, the other will. Since these two Chevrai are all there is,
    and they cover different geographic areas, it is unclear what the norm in
    the larger community might be.... (Makes me think of the concept of two
    circuit courts that hold oppositely, but there is no supreme court to serve
    as arbiter!)
     
    While I am writing, I also have to echo what Dan Fendel said about Gamliel
    courses. I have now taken four of the courses, and some of them more than
    once. They are outstanding and look squarely at some of these really tough
    questions, providing information to help each Chevrah decide what to do for
    good reasons. As strongly as people feel, there is just not one right
    answer that fits all. So much of the work of the CK is Minhag that has come
    to be viewed as Halachah....
     
    And speaking of the Gamliel courses the next one scheduled is on Nechama,
    Comforting. It will start on July 15th (with a logistics session on July
    8th for those who have not taken a course using the online system). This
    course was very good before, and is likely to be even better this time
    around. The instructors engaged for it are first rate, the material is
    right on target for those in the CK and all who deal with comforting those
    at the end of life and mourners. The information taught is both practical
    and theoretical, explaining in an understandable way the background and
    theory, and also giving valuable hands-on how-to advice and tools.
     
    If you can, I strongly suggest you consider taking this course. You can
    find the information and register on the jewish-funerals.org website.
     
    Shalom,
     
    Joe Blair
     
    _____________________________________________
    Rabbi Joe Blair
    rabb...@hotmail.com
    925-272-8563 [925-2-RAV-JOE]
     
    Administrator, Webmaster, Coordinator, & Panelist:
    Jewish Values Online http://www.JewishValuesOnline.org
     
    זֶה הַיּוֹם עָשָׂה יְיָ, נָגֽילָה וְנִשְׂמְחָה בוֹ
    This is the day that the Lord made; be
    happy and rejoice in it.
    Ps. 118:24
     
    Read the text within its' context. --- Francesco Petrarch
    _____________________________________________

     

Ilene Rubenstein

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Jun 11, 2014, 6:15:08 PM6/11/14
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Thank you for challenging my knee-jerk reaction to cremation. As important as I feel it is to educate in this area, on an individual level, it would be far more appropriate to start with your simple question: "why cremate?" which recognizes that their views on, and desire for, cremation may be as deeply held and complex as my opposition to it. Which is not to say that further dialogue might not follow, but always, we should start from a position of respect. So, thank you again for reminding me of that.
And yes - this would make for an interesting research topic.

From: Me'irah <rabbi...@gmail.com>
To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 2 topics

Shalom
Laurie you raise a good point: finding out the reason behind someone's choosing cremation. 
I find that some folks decided to be cremated long ago, then learned about taharah, and decided that want that, too. I don't think we educate as well about burial as we do about taharah. 
Someone told me once they can't deal with the idea of worms eating them. Some, I think are afraid of cemeteries. I'm guessing that in a way, having an urn of "ashes" may feel like a way someone can hold on to their loved one. I have a friend whose teenage son on a bicycle was killed by an intoxicated driver. She kept his ashes by her bed for a very long time. 
Let's ask people, simply out of curiosity, "why cremation?" And see what we find out. It would make a good gamliel research project. 
Blessings rabbi Me'irah

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, jewish-...@googlegroups.com wrote:

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Israel Man

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Jun 15, 2014, 10:32:30 AM6/15/14
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Shalom all,
I did not follow the thread so I respond on the last post.
As a rabbi I always advocated for a proper Jewish burial because this is what I have learnt and what I was used to. In the last few years I travelled around the world, saw and studied different cultures with their different ways to treat the departed. The common denominator is that they all do it with respect to the dead. The problem is that what is respectful in one culture looks disrespectful in the other. I've seen bodies embalmed, burnt, buried in the ground, inserted in concrete cubicles, dumped in the sea, chopped up and fed to the vultures or buried on the front lawn of the house. All this made me rethink my attitude. So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing that, in the long run, does not matter to us. 
Respectfully
Israel Man


On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:15 PM, 'Ilene Rubenstein' via jewish-funerals <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Thank you for challenging my knee-jerk reaction to cremation. As important as I feel it is to educate in this area, on an individual level, it would be far more appropriate to start with your simple question: "why cremate?" which recognizes that their views on, and desire for, cremation may be as deeply held and complex as my opposition to it. Which is not to say that further dialogue might not follow, but always, we should start from a position of respect. So, thank you again for reminding me of that.
And yes - this would make for an interesting research topic.

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