VoF Week :: DV :: 03 AUG 12 - 0241 :: Primula garhwalica syn. Androsace garhwalica along Hemakund - Ghangaria trail

[Dinesh Valke]

Primula garhwalica (Balodi & S.Singh) K.K.Khanna & An.Kumar ... (family: Cyperaceae) syn. Androsace garhwalica Balodi & S.Singh

3 AUG 12 Hemakund - Ghangaria trail ... about 12200 ft

Regards. Dinesh

[Dinesh Valke]

Yes dear Pankaj - will go with your ID.
The plants are ditto.
Many thanks for the correction.

Regards.
Dinesh

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 7:03 PM, Dr Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please check my mucronifolia. I assume mine to be correct.

Pankaj

--
 
 
 

[chrischa...@btinternet.com]

I am confused by this.  It certainly appears to be an Androsace rather than a Primula.

I am not familiar with this species.  Clearly it has been named by Indian botanists.  Could someone tell me the publication this species was described in and how it is distinguished from related species?

See the other posting re: Androsace mucronifolia (or not as the case).

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Chadwell ji

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[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks Chadwell ji for validating this post; will revise my notes at flickr, when we reach to any conclusion.

Regards.

Dinesh

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:13 AM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Chadwell ji

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Chadwell ji,

To me it appears close to Androsace globifera as per the following images (though I may or may not be correct):

http://www.phytoimages.siu.edu/imgs/Cusman1/r/Primulaceae_Androsace_globifera_93803.html

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Androsace_globifera_3.JPG

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androsace_globifera#/media/File:Androsace_globifera.jpg

https://www.nargs.org/plant/androsace-globifera

http://phytoimages.siu.edu/imgs/Cusman1/r/Primulaceae_Androsace_globifera_70529.html

http://garden.org/plants/view/133923/Rock-Jasmine-Androsace-globifera/

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. 

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).

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[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks, Garg ji.

Regards.

Dinesh

[C CHADWELL]

 

Thought best to collect my thoughts before responding further. I comment about A.garwhalicum at the bottom.

 

The problem with the links provided (and most from specialist nurseries, growers and the like) is that such people (in good faith mostly - though it is in the commercial interest of nurseries to list as many different species & cultivars as possible, as there are collectors of all available examples of favoured genera e.g. Androsace, Primula, Iris, Meconopsis, Geranium etc.).  They will buy if the species name or cultivar name is different to what they already have (or think they have).

 

The problem is that hardly any of those running nurseries, websites (even the top horticulturists in the UK) have any proper training in how to identify plants - to be fair, often few, if any reference books or other resources exist.  They rely on the name something arrived at. 

 

The result is, as my own informal research suggests, a high proportion of plants are misidentified in cultivation (just as a significant proportion of plants seen during surveys and trips to the Himalaya are misidentified).  For plants under names of species found in the Himalaya (some plants grow in the Himalaya and other regions of the world, so the example may not have originated in the Himalaya) I judge at least 50% to be misidentified (and I do not mean because they are hybrids, another complication in cultivation) - I have checked plants from nurseries and sources of seed, commercial and botanic garden index semina.

 

Thus, we cannot expect the situation with Androsace in cultivation to be any different.

 

Of the links provided, the final two do not come close to the others and in my opinion are not Androsace globifera.

 

As to the identity of the plant photographed in VoF - this, as I have already stated is definitely not A.mucronifolia.  It might be A,globifera but some sources say it should have flower-stalks (others like 'Flowers of Himalaya' say short-stalked or stalkless.  It is the most likely candidate.

 

There has long been confusion with the mat and cushion-forming species.

 

Interestingly, the image of A,globifera in 'Flowers of the Himalaya' shows flowers with darker central parts, as does the much larger photo of this species in 'Portraits of Himalayan Flowers' (T.Yoshida), along with one of the images in his 'Himalayan Plants Illustrated'.

As to Androsace garwhalicum.  I have looked through the notes provided when this species was described in 1988. I note the NEW species was 'discovered' in the BSD herbarium, NOT in the wild.  Their description and the accompanying line drawings.  I do not know who did the line drawings but they do not appear to have been acknowledged.  Anyhow, C.Bhattacharya made the collection in Hemkund @ 4200m (though do not give a date) with the type in Calcutta herbarium.

I have to say the line drawing is a bit confusing as it appears to show minute flowers a fraction of the length of the leaves, yet in the description it states the petal lobes are 5.5mm long (whilst the leaves are 2.5-5mm).  Clearly a mistake.  Ever more extraordinary is the claim that the petals are pale blue.  I don't know of too many Androsaces with blue flowers!  But I suspect I have the explanation and it stems from a problem encountered by those examining dried specimens in herbaria - the colour of dried flowers if often different to fresh ones.  I am very surprised the authors of this new species did not realise this (or the senior botanist who went through the manuscript).  Anyhow, as Professor Richards says, petiolarid flowers which are pink when fresh dry blue..... Perhaps the same has happened here?   Maybe the blue flowers contributed to the authors imaging the specimen was a Primula - hence but incorrectly, in my mind, Primula garhwalicum. 

It would be helpful if a group member with access to BSD, DD or CAL herbaria, could take good close-ups of the specimens of Androsace garwhalicum and post them on this site, so we have these for reference purposes.

As the authors only gave a key to distinguish A.garwhalicum  from A.selago and this species is not found in Uttarakhand, I would like to be clearer how to distinguish it from A.globifera, which is known from the region and for which it presumably was mistaken for in the past?

 

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com>
Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2016, 5:38
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:256124] Re: VoF Week :: DV :: 03 AUG 12 - 0241 :: Primula garhwalica syn. Androsace garhwalica along Hemakund - Ghangaria trail

Thanks, Chadwell ji,

To me it appears close to Androsace globifera as per the following images (though I may or may not be correct):

http://www.phytoimages.siu. edu/imgs/Cusman1/r/ Primulaceae_Androsace_ globifera_93803.html

https://commons.wikimedia.org/ wiki/File:Androsace_globifera_ 3.JPG

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Androsace_globifera#/media/ File:Androsace_globifera.jpg

https://www.nargs.org/plant/ androsace-globifera

http://phytoimages.siu.edu/ imgs/Cusman1/r/Primulaceae_ Androsace_globifera_70529.html

http://garden.org/plants/view/ 133923/Rock-Jasmine-Androsace- globifera/

On 9 November 2016 at 13:12, Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Chadwell ji for validating this post; will revise my notes at flickr, when we reach to any conclusion.

Regards.

Dinesh

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:13 AM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Chadwell ji

[C CHADWELL]

Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:256983] Re: VoF Week :: DV :: 03 AUG 12 - 0241 :: Primula garhwalica syn. Androsace garhwalica along Hemakund - Ghangaria trail

Thanks, Chadwell ji,

To me it appears close to Androsace globifera as per the following images (though I may or may not be correct):

http://www.phytoimages.siu. edu/imgs/Cusman1/r/ Primulaceae_Androsace_ globifera_93803.html

https://commons.wikimedia.org/ wiki/File:Androsace_globifera_ 3.JPG

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Androsace_globifera#/media/ File:Androsace_globifera.jpg

https://www.nargs.org/plant/ androsace-globifera

http://phytoimages.siu.edu/ imgs/Cusman1/r/Primulaceae_ Androsace_globifera_70529.html

http://garden.org/plants/view/ 133923/Rock-Jasmine-Androsace- globifera/

On 9 November 2016 at 13:12, Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Chadwell ji for validating this post; will revise my notes at flickr, when we reach to any conclusion.

Regards.

Dinesh

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:13 AM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Chadwell ji

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[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Chadwell ji

On 24 Nov 2016 3:56 am, "C CHADWELL" <chrischa...@btinternet.com> wrote:

 

Thought best to collect my thoughts before responding further. I comment about A.garwhalicum at the bottom.

 

The problem with the links provided (and most from specialist nurseries, growers and the like) is that such people (in good faith mostly - though it is in the commercial interest of nurseries to list as many different species & cultivars as possible, as there are collectors of all available examples of favoured genera e.g. Androsace, Primula, Iris, Meconopsis, Geranium etc.).  They will buy if the species name or cultivar name is different to what they already have (or think they have).

 

The problem is that hardly any of those running nurseries, websites (even the top horticulturists in the UK) have any proper training in how to identify plants - to be fair, often few, if any reference books or other resources exist.  They rely on the name something arrived at. 

 

The result is, as my own informal research suggests, a high proportion of plants are misidentified in cultivation (just as a significant proportion of plants seen during surveys and trips to the Himalaya are misidentified).  For plants under names of species found in the Himalaya (some plants grow in the Himalaya and other regions of the world, so the example may not have originated in the Himalaya) I judge at least 50% to be misidentified (and I do not mean because they are hybrids, another complication in cultivation) - I have checked plants from nurseries and sources of seed, commercial and botanic garden index semina.

 

Thus, we cannot expect the situation with Androsace in cultivation to be any different.

 

Of the links provided, the final two do not come close to the others and in my opinion are not Androsace globifera.

 

As to the identity of the plant photographed in VoF - this, as I have already stated is definitely not A.mucronifolia.  It might be A,globifera but some sources say it should have flower-stalks (others like 'Flowers of Himalaya' say short-stalked or stalkless.  It is the most likely candidate.

 

There has long been confusion with the mat and cushion-forming species.

 

Interestingly, the image of A,globifera in 'Flowers of the Himalaya' shows flowers with darker central parts, as does the much larger photo of this species in 'Portraits of Himalayan Flowers' (T.Yoshida), along with one of the images in his 'Himalayan Plants Illustrated'.

As to Androsace garwhalicum.  I have looked through the notes provided when this species was described in 1988. I note the NEW species was 'discovered' in the BSD herbarium, NOT in the wild.  Their description and the accompanying line drawings.  I do not know who did the line drawings but they do not appear to have been acknowledged.  Anyhow, C.Bhattacharya made the collection in Hemkund @ 4200m (though do not give a date) with the type in Calcutta herbarium.

I have to say the line drawing is a bit confusing as it appears to show minute flowers a fraction of the length of the leaves, yet in the description it states the petal lobes are 5.5mm long (whilst the leaves are 2.5-5mm).  Clearly a mistake.  Ever more extraordinary is the claim that the petals are pale blue.  I don't know of too many Androsaces with blue flowers!  But I suspect I have the explanation and it stems from a problem encountered by those examining dried specimens in herbaria - the colour of dried flowers if often different to fresh ones.  I am very surprised the authors of this new species did not realise this (or the senior botanist who went through the manuscript).  Anyhow, as Professor Richards says, petiolarid flowers which are pink when fresh dry blue..... Perhaps the same has happened here?   Maybe the blue flowers contributed to the authors imaging the specimen was a Primula - hence but incorrectly, in my mind, Primula garhwalicum. 

It would be helpful if a group member with access to BSD, DD or CAL herbaria, could take good close-ups of the specimens of Androsace garwhalicum and post them on this site, so we have these for reference purposes.

As the authors only gave a key to distinguish A.garwhalicum  from A.selago and this species is not found in Uttarakhand, I would like to be clearer how to distinguish it from A.globifera, which is known from the region and for which it presumably was mistaken for in the past?

 

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com>

Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>