Cosmos diversifolius Otto ex Otto

[Samir Mehta]

Wild flower @ S Gujarat, October.

New addition to group data base.

Regards,

Samir Mehta

[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks Samir for sharing this plant; I have similar (seen planted at Tungareshwar WLS) and was under the impression that it is Cosmos caudatus Kunth. 

Regards.

Dinesh

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[Paresh Churi]

Wonderful images Samir ji !

Yes Dinesh ji, I have also photographed this plant from Tungreshwar WLS & got identified from Sushant More.

It can be viewed here-
http://www.ifoundbutterflies.org/nectar-plants/969/Cosmos-diversifolius

Regards

[Samir Mehta]

Yes Dinesh, plant has been incorrectly identified on the group. No wonder I did not find it when I searched for it.

Paresh ji, your images are superb.

Rgds,

Samir Mehta

[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks all for having consensus on Cosmos diversifolius.

I had posted my plant to the group with the ID of C. caudatus. It was not validated positively (nor in negative until today).

This ID of Cosmos diversifolius is not convincing me.

Both C. diversifolius and C. caudatus are native of Latin America, Not sure if C. diversifolius has naturalized in our country - not mentioned in NPGS pages, rather C. caudatus seems to have naturalized in larger part of eastern hemisphere including India.

Results in image search on Google for these two species diversifolius & caudatus match more to C. caudatus.

Dear friends, I have put my thoughts, please validate.

Regards.

Dinesh

[Samir Mehta]

Dinesh, also check Flowers of Sahyadri vol 3, pg 138.

Also view webpage: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cosmos_diversifolius#/media/File:Cosmos_diversifolius_1838.jpg

Rgds,

[Samir Mehta]

For the more technical, visit: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/h/herb2ic/x-mich1108999/mich1108999___tif

Rgds,

[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks Samir for working out to get the references used for arriving to C. diversifolius.

Yes, Shrikant ji's 3rd book does show a picture of C. diversifolius matching posted plant's flower.

Let us view a link related to C. caudatus in Wikimedia ...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cosmos_caudatus

and the herbarium link ... http://quod.lib.umich.edu/h/herb2ic/x-mich1108998/MICH1108998.TIF

Somehow the content at both the links provided by you / me match the posted plant.

We thus need someone to help us understand which of the two species was introduced in India.

Regards.

Dinesh

[Dinesh Valke]

At the University of Michigan pages, the Notes are as follows ...

C. diversifolius

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/h/herb2ic/x-mich1108999/mich1108999___tif

Notes

Pine-oak forests west of summits Occasional, mostly past flower. Rays white, disk yellow.

C. caudatus

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/h/herb2ic/x-mich1108998/MICH1108998.TIF

Notes

Ungrazed hillsides in Bouteloua grassland Abundant on banks and disturbed ground. Annual to 2 m. high; selected small specimens; rays deep pink, paler after opening, and often white toward base; disk yellow

Regards.

Dinesh

[Samir Mehta]

I had relied on FoS for the id. Now that stands challenged – and for good reason.

Point well taken; Agree with your concerns Dinesh.

The two species seem to be very closely related. [I will post one Alisycarpus where I am having similar difficulty]

Objective: is to take a bipartisan approach to resolving the id (not only two of us but the entire group - that's what a group is for in the first place).

I suggest:

1. We try and get relevant keys of genus Cosmos.

2. Some scientific paper on the genus or something even more specific.
3. In Asteraceae the bracts are important, so the reverse of the flower face is important to demonstrate.

.

I am marking this mail to Shrikant Ingalhalikar also (you have already marked mail to Tabish). It will be helpful if the two gentlemen share there views also as we have relied on their respective works.

I am also adding one more image to add more data on the species photographed by me. If you have more revealing images of your specimen please share them (or link) with this thread.

Rgds,

[Dinesh Valke]

Samir, I marked a copy to Tabish because my plant features in Flowers of India :-)

He should be aware of the outcome of this discussion; he may even share his thoughts.

Hopefully Shrikant ji also gives his thoughts.

Rather than digging into keys of exotic flora, if we get to know the facts / history of their introduction, that may serve our purpose. I strongly believe only one of these was introduced in India.

Regards.

Dinesh

[Samir Mehta]

'Rather than digging into keys of exotic flora, if we get to know the facts / history of their introduction, that may serve our purpose. I strongly believe only one of these was introduced in India.'

I did read that in your initial mail but told myself - How does it matter? C. caudatus may have been introduced on a larger scale but there may have been introduction of C. diversifolius also (and not so well documented or by accident).

It's also true that if you do not have a complete set of images / data you have limited choice.

OK....Let's split the labour.... I try to dig out the keys / papers and you try dig out the historical facts!

Regards,

[Samir Mehta]

https://archive.org/details/revisionofgenfisher

https://archive.org/details/revisionofgenfisher

https://archive.org/stream/revisionofgenfisher#page/444/mode/2up/search/cosmos+caudatus

(above page most specific for C. diversifolius)

https://archive.org/stream/revisionofgenfisher#page/412/mode/2up/search/cosmos+caudatus

(above page most specific for C. caudatus

I have found a publication called 'Revsion of genus Cosmos' and given links to 2 of the most specific pages wrt C. caudaus an C. diversifolius; However most of the stuff is in Latin (I do not know Latin), some in English. As I cannot read all of it - even parts specific to C. cudatus and diversifolius - I do not want to hazard a guess. [All I can say is that achene of my plant is 2-aristate.].

Kindly go through the same and give your views.

Regards,

Samir Mehta

[Samir Mehta]

https://archive.org/stream/revisionofgenfisher#page/402/mode/2up

You will find the keys to the genus on above weblink.

Rgds,

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[Dinesh Valke]

Dear Samir, 

I am not capable of studying the links you have provided. It is beyond my limits of understanding :-)

Moreover, it is not good for just two of us to aggressively discuss over these two species.

We must and will take a pause here and let others voice their opinions and views.

Regards.

Dinesh

[Shrikant Ingalhalikar]

Dr. Samir and Dineshji
Sorry to have come in late. My labelling in FOS is based on BSI. I was moved by the discussion and feel on study of some floras that
1. Yellow/orange flowers is C sulphureus.
2. All other coloured flowers is C bipinnatus.
I will confirm this after matching the specimen of plants seen as escapes in India.
Meanwhile please confirm in case of pink flowered plants if ultimate lobes of leaves are below 2 mm wide and if ray lamina is above 1 cm long.
There is no doubt about C sulphureus.
Hope to resolve this soon. Regards

[Shrikant Ingalhalikar]

Further assuming that 3 sp have escaped in India, following key can be generated.

Flowers yellow/orange............sulphureus
Not as above
Ultimate lobes leaves
0-1.5 mm wide........bipinnatus
2-10 mm wide.........caudatus

[Shrikant Ingalhalikar]

I am adding 2 illustrations that clearly show the key feature viz width of ultimate lobes of leaves. It may be possible that both sp have escaped in India. Inputs from more members will surely resolve this issue. Regards

[Dinesh Valke]

Thank you very much Shrikant ji.

Regards.

Dinesh

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[Ushadi Micromini]

Thanks Shrikant

Also from now on i for one will take carful pictures of all cosmos i come across

and not dismiss as  oh well a cosmos ... of garden variety

usha di

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Usha di
===========

[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

From Shrikant ji:

Further assuming that 3 sp have escaped in India, following key can be generated. Flowers yellow/orange............sulphureus         Not as above           Ultimate lobes leaves             0-1.5 mm wide........bipinnatus             2-10 mm wide.........caudatus

I am adding 2 illustrations that clearly show the key feature viz width of ultimate lobes of leaves. It may be possible that both sp have escaped in India. Inputs from more members will surely resolve this issue. Regards

Shrikant

efi page on Cosmos caudatus & Cosmos bipinnatus

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

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[J.M. Garg]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: M Swamy <swamy...@gmail.com>
Date: 5 November 2015 at 11:50
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:234844] Cosmos diversifolius Otto ex Otto
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>

As the lobes / leaves  looks like -   2-10 mm wide -  it could be  C. caudatus