Clematis tibetana Kuntze
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Saroj Kasaju
Sep 29, 2016, 6:15:13 AM9/29/16
to efloraofindia, J.M. Garg
Dear Members,
Sharing some pictures I guess is Clematis tibetana Kuntze shot at Nubra Valley on 21 August 2014.
Please verify ID if first two pictures are same sp.
Thank you.
Saroj Kasaju
chrischa...@btinternet.com
Sep 30, 2016, 6:51:46 PM9/30/16
to efloraofindia, jmg...@gmail.com
Dickore & Klimes list 4 taxa for Clematis in Ladakh: C.ladakhiana, C.orientalis, Clematis orientalis var. tenuifolia and C.tangutica.
They do not list C.tibetana.
Stewart only listed C.orientalis - he omitted the varieties proposed e.g. var. tenuifolia from Pangong and var. acutifolia. C.ladakhiana was
not known at that time.
I am currently a bit unsure about some specimens. Prior to my first visit to Ladakh in 1980, Kew's Dr Grey-Wilson, A Clematis specialist, asked us
to look out for Clematis in the Suru Valley - we found a specimen climbing along walls separating fields at Kargil.
I consider photos 3 and 4 shot in the Nubra Valley are what I understand to be C.ladakhiana. I am unsure about photos 1 & 2. I recollect viewing pressed
specimens of a Clematis from Pakistan which had very dissected foliage with narrow leaflets and small flowers which I understood to be within C.orientalis.
Grey-Wilson did write an article in 'The Plantsman' (I do not have the full reference to-hand) but was left unsure about distinguishing between these closely-related species.
Would welcome the thoughts of others.
Saroj Kasaju
Oct 3, 2016, 1:36:04 PM10/3/16
to C CHADWELL, efloraofindia, J.M. Garg
Dear Mr. Chadwell,
Enclosing the copy paste.
Thank you.
Saroj Kasaju
Common name: Ladakh Clematis
Botanical name:
Clematis ladakhiana Family: Ranunculaceae (Buttercup family)
Synonyms: Clematis orientalis var. longifoliolata, Clematis orientalis var. acutifolia
Identification credit: Prashant Awale, Amit Chauhan
• Is this flower misidentified? If yes,
Common name: Tibetan Clematis
Botanical name: Clematis tibetana Family: Ranunculaceae (Buttercup family)
Synonyms: Clematis tibetana var. tibetana
• Is this flower misidentified? If yes,
Ladakh Clematis |  |
 |  ative |  |  |
|
Botanical name:
Clematis ladakhiana Family: Ranunculaceae (Buttercup family)Synonyms: Clematis orientalis var. longifoliolata, Clematis orientalis var. acutifolia
Ladakh Clematis is a beautiful creeper from Ladakh, with 2 inches flowers that have 4 tepals, 1.5-2.5 cm long, 4-10 mm wide, with the upper sides being yellow-bronze mottled with dark red, while the undersides are paler. The anthers are reddish brown. Flowers are followed by large and highly-decorative, fluffy seed heads. The attractive, ferny, bluish green leaves divided into 5-7 narrow leaflets. Leaflets are rather glaucous-green, narrow-lanceolate, 2.7-9 cm long, 0.4-2 cm wide, entire or with 1-2 lobes in the lower part.
Identification credit: Prashant Awale, Amit Chauhan
| Photographed in Ladakh. |
Tibetan Clematis |  |
| ative | |  |
|
Botanical name:
Clematis tibetana Family: Ranunculaceae (Buttercup family)Synonyms: Clematis tibetana var. tibetana
Tibetan Clematis is a climbing shrub, up to 2 m tall, stems velvet-hairy, green when young, becoming purplish, finely velvet-hairy to hairless. Leaves are 2-pinnate, with narrow-Ianceshaped, pointed leaflets which are entire or toothed near the base, mostly about 5 cm. Flowers are borne in leaf-axils, solitary or 2-3 together, nodding, bell-shaped, yellow or greenish yellow, flushed or spotted with rusty brown, bronze or purplish yellow outside; flower-cluster-stalks 0.3-7 cm long, usually rather sparsely velvet-hairy. Flower-stalks are slender, 3-14 cm long, sparsely velvet-hairy or hairless. Sepals are lanceshaped to elliptic, pointed or long-tapering, 15-35 x 5-14 mm, moderately thick, leathery, hairless or nearly hairless outside, densely silky velvet-hairy inside and on margins. Filaments 4 - 10 mm long, slightly hairy; anthers 1.5 - 3.5 mm long. Achenes silvery hairy, with about 3.5 cm long feathery tails. Tibetan Clematis is found in the Himalayas, from Pakistan to Uttarakhand, at altitudes of 1800-3600. It is common in Ladakh. Flowering: July-September.
| Identification credit: Gurcharan Singh | Photographed in Nubra Valley, Ladakh. |
• Is this flower misidentified? If yes,
On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:55 PM, C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Cannot access these links - perhaps you could send me them again?
From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>
Sent: Monday, 3 October 2016, 10:02
Subject: Re: Clematis tibetana Kuntze
Thank you Mr. Garg / Mr. ChadwellEnclosing link from FoI for reference for further validation;javascript:popup("http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Hairy Clematis.html")javascript:popup("http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Ladakh Clematis.html")Thank you.Saroj KasajuOn Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 9:35 AM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:
--With regards,
J.M.GargFor identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.
Saroj Kasaju
Oct 4, 2016, 4:08:17 AM10/4/16
to C CHADWELL, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Dear Mr. Chadwell/ Mr. Garg,
Picture 1 and 2 and the additional picture.
I guess it is Clematis graveolens Lindl.
Sending link for reference also.
Thank you.
Saroj Kasaju
On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 11:38 PM, C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Thanks for these.I would include this within what I understand to be Clematis ladakhianaand not C.tibetana which may well not occur in Ladakh - though I am uncertainabout a number of aspects of separation of Clematis in Ladakh!I realise that 'Flowers of the Himalaya' has C.tibetana as common in Ladakh!At the time, C.tibetana was considered a separate species from C.vernayi butwithout checking, the latter taxon may just be a subsp. of C.tibetana now?I have seen images from Ladakh which do not fit into what I understand to beC.ladakhiana nor C.orientalis but wonder about C.tangutica??Needs further investigation - or ideally comments by a Clematis specialist, whichI am not.
From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
To: C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>; J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 3 October 2016, 18:36
Subject: Re: Clematis tibetana Kuntze
On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:55 PM, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com> wrote:
Cannot access these links - perhaps you could send me them again?
Saroj Kasaju
Oct 4, 2016, 10:41:21 AM10/4/16
to C CHADWELL, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Yes only confusion is the altitude which is not much different but looks like it is matching?
Any expert help??
Thank you.
On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 6:46 PM, C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
I can understand that Clematis graveolens would be suggested as a possibility.According to Stewart, C.graveolens is only found from 1000-2700m in many parts ofPakistan and Kashmir, through to Kishtwar. Also Afghanistan. On the outer ranges of theHimalaya.His comment was " often confused with Clematis orientalis of the hot inner ranges".I must try and locate the article by Grey-Wilson in 'The Plantsman' (the title was along the linesof Clematis orientalis aand its allies, I spoke off to see what he says of C.graveolens. Though asI said previously, I remained somewhat confused after reading it last time.I cannot speak with authority, so we need input by a Clematis specialist here. Dickore andKlimes would have been fully aware of C.graveolens when compiling their check-list forLadakh and do not include this species.'Flowers of Himalaya' describe C.graveolens as "sweet scented, pale yellow (which does not fit withthe painting of C.graveolens) with elliptic spreading petals usually notched at apex and conspicuouslyhairy with a band of hairs on the margin outside, hairy inside, flowers 2-5 cm across; a slender climber.They record it from dry areas, banks, edges of cultivation at 900-3000m from Afghanistan to C.Nepal,A common problem with many photos even high quality close-ups, one cannot always see thenecessary detail to check such characteristics. It is worth repeating, time and time again, we shouldalways be aware that most taxonomy is based upon examining closely, dried, pressed specimens inherbaria - not from fresh, living plants. Until very recently, few photographs from the "field [wild]" wereavailable to consult. Hopefully, in time, as more and more quality close-up images taken with digitalcameras become available to those revising genera taxonomically, characteristics may be noticed whichcan be diagnostic in fresh specimens.In the mean-time, do keep posting images, take many more per plant/specimen (as I am advocating) on future occasions andwhere possible, make notes in the field describing features of Clematis and other genera which need closeinspection. A good quality hand lens (at least x10, ideally x 20 or even more sophisticated if available) makesa big difference and is an indispensable tool for any keen amateur botanist (and essential for professional ones).The more this is done (accepting that it can be very tiring, indeed exhausting, exploring for plants up in themountains esp. in extremes of temperature - and at the highest altitudes it is hard to record things methodically).But the better the images send in to efloraofIndia, the greater the contribution it can make - and considerably aidsattempts at reliable identifications. We need to achieve the best identifications as possible, otherwise others willjust assume what is on this site is correct.
From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
To: C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2016, 9:08
Subject: [efloraofindia:252908] Re: Clematis tibetana Kuntze
Dear Mr. Chadwell/ Mr. Garg,Picture 1 and 2 and the additional picture.I guess it is Clematis graveolens Lindl.Sending link for reference also.Thank you.Saroj Kasaju
On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 11:38 PM, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com> wrote:
Thanks for these.I would include this within what I understand to be Clematis ladakhianaand not C.tibetana which may well not occur in Ladakh - though I am uncertainabout a number of aspects of separation of Clematis in Ladakh!I realise that 'Flowers of the Himalaya' has C.tibetana as common in Ladakh!At the time, C.tibetana was considered a separate species from C.vernayi butwithout checking, the latter taxon may just be a subsp. of C.tibetana now?I have seen images from Ladakh which do not fit into what I understand to beC.ladakhiana nor C.orientalis but wonder about C.tangutica??Needs further investigation - or ideally comments by a Clematis specialist, whichI am not.
To: C CHADWELL <mailto:chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <mailto:indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>; J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 3 October 2016, 18:36
Subject: Re: Clematis tibetana Kuntze
Dear Mr. Chadwell,Enclosing the copy paste.Thank you.
Saroj Kasaju
Botanical name:
Synonyms: Clematis orientalis var. longifoliolata, Clematis orientalis var. acutifoliaLadakh Clematis is a beautiful creeper from Ladakh, with 2 inches flowers that have 4 tepals, 1.5-2.5 cm long, 4-10 mm wide, with the upper sides being yellow-bronze mottled with dark red, while the undersides are paler. The anthers are reddish brown. Flowers are followed by large and highly-decorative, fluffy seed heads. The attractive, ferny, bluish green leaves divided into 5-7 narrow leaflets. Leaflets are rather glaucous-green, narrow-lanceolate, 2.7-9 cm long, 0.4-2 cm wide, entire or with 1-2 lobes in the lower part.
Identification credit: Prashant Awale, Amit Chauhan• Is this flower misidentified? If yes,
Photographed in Ladakh.
Botanical name:
Synonyms: Clematis tibetana var. tibetanaTibetan Clematis is a climbing shrub, up to 2 m tall, stems velvet-hairy, green when young, becoming purplish, finely velvet-hairy to hairless. Leaves are 2-pinnate, with narrow-Ianceshaped, pointed leaflets which are entire or toothed near the base, mostly about 5 cm. Flowers are borne in leaf-axils, solitary or 2-3 together, nodding, bell-shaped, yellow or greenish yellow, flushed or spotted with rusty brown, bronze or purplish yellow outside; flower-cluster-stalks 0.3-7 cm long, usually rather sparsely velvet-hairy. Flower-stalks are slender, 3-14 cm long, sparsely velvet-hairy or hairless. Sepals are lanceshaped to elliptic, pointed or long-tapering, 15-35 x 5-14 mm, moderately thick, leathery, hairless or nearly hairless outside, densely silky velvet-hairy inside and on margins. Filaments 4 - 10 mm long, slightly hairy; anthers 1.5 - 3.5 mm long. Achenes silvery hairy, with about 3.5 cm long feathery tails. Tibetan Clematis is found in the Himalayas, from Pakistan to Uttarakhand, at altitudes of 1800-3600. It is common in Ladakh. Flowering: July-September.
Identification credit: Gurcharan Singh Photographed in Nubra Valley, Ladakh.
• Is this flower misidentified? If yes,
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J.M. Garg
Oct 13, 2016, 12:43:19 AM10/13/16
to efloraofindia, Saroj Kasaju, chrischa...@btinternet.com
Forwarding again for Id assistance please.
Some earlier relevant feedback:
| Dickore & Klimes list 4 taxa for Clematis in Ladakh: C.ladakhiana, C.orientalis, Clematis orientalis var. tenuifolia and C.tangutica. They do not list C.tibetana. Stewart only listed C.orientalis - he omitted the varieties proposed e.g. var. tenuifolia from Pangong and var. acutifolia. C.ladakhiana was not known at that time. I am currently a bit unsure about some specimens. Prior to my first visit to Ladakh in 1980, Kew's Dr Grey-Wilson, A Clematis specialist, asked us to look out for Clematis in the Suru Valley - we found a specimen climbing along walls separating fields at Kargil. I consider photos 3 and 4 shot in the Nubra Valley are what I understand to be C.ladakhiana. I am unsure about photos 1 & 2. I recollect viewing pressed specimens of a Clematis from Pakistan which had very dissected foliage with narrow leaflets and small flowers which I understood to be within C.orientalis. Grey-Wilson did write an article in 'The Plantsman' (I do not have the full reference to-hand) but was left unsure about distinguishing between these closely-related species. |
Would welcome the thoughts of others. - from Chris Chadwell ji.
|
Picture 1 and 2 and the additional picture. I guess it is Clematis graveolens Lindl. Sending link for reference also. |
| I can understand that Clematis graveolens would be suggested as a possibility. According to Stewart, C.graveolens is only found from 1000-2700m in many parts of Pakistan and Kashmir, through to Kishtwar. Also Afghanistan. On the outer ranges of the Himalaya. His comment was " often confused with Clematis orientalis of the hot inner ranges". I must try and locate the article by Grey-Wilson in 'The Plantsman' (the title was along the lines of Clematis orientalis aand its allies, I spoke off to see what he says of C.graveolens. Though as I said previously, I remained somewhat confused after reading it last time. I cannot speak with authority, so we need input by a Clematis specialist here. Dickore and Klimes would have been fully aware of C.graveolens when compiling their check-list for Ladakh and do not include this species. 'Flowers of Himalaya' describe C.graveolens as "sweet scented, pale yellow (which does not fit with the painting of C.graveolens) with elliptic spreading petals usually notched at apex and conspicuously hairy with a band of hairs on the margin outside, hairy inside, flowers 2-5 cm across; a slender climber. They record it from dry areas, banks, edges of cultivation at 900-3000m from Afghanistan to C.Nepal, A common problem with many photos even high quality close-ups, one cannot always see the necessary detail to check such characteristics. It is worth repeating, time and time again, we should always be aware that most taxonomy is based upon examining closely, dried, pressed specimens in herbaria - not from fresh, living plants. Until very recently, few photographs from the "field [wild]" were available to consult. Hopefully, in time, as more and more quality close-up images taken with digital cameras become available to those revising genera taxonomically, characteristics may be noticed which can be diagnostic in fresh specimens. In the mean-time, do keep posting images, take many more per plant/specimen (as I am advocating) on future occasions and where possible, make notes in the field describing features of Clematis and other genera which need close inspection. A good quality hand lens (at least x10, ideally x 20 or even more sophisticated if available) makes a big difference and is an indispensable tool for any keen amateur botanist (and essential for professional ones). The more this is done (accepting that it can be very tiring, indeed exhausting, exploring for plants up in the mountains esp. in extremes of temperature - and at the highest altitudes it is hard to record things methodically). But the better the images send in to efloraofIndia, the greater the contribution it can make - and considerably aids attempts at reliable identifications. We need to achieve the best identifications as possible, otherwise others will just assume what is on this site is correct. Best Wishes, Chris Chadwell
|
Yes only confusion is the altitude which is not much different but looks like it is matching? Any expert help?? Thank you. |
Saroj
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C CHADWELL
Oct 13, 2016, 3:36:30 PM10/13/16
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Saroj Kasaju
Dear All
I have located CLEMATIS ORIENTALIS - A MUCH CONFUSED SPECIES by Dr Grey-Wilson
(which was published in 'The Plantsman' on behalf of the UK Royal Horticultural Society).
Can now read through it from a better informed angle and having looked at more photos (and a few pressed specimens) of
this species 'complex'. over the past days. I am clearer though some characteristics do overlap (as the author explains).
Shall share the most important points of this account in relation to the confusion over similar species in the NW Himalaya and borderlands
of Western Tibet:
1. Let us begin with C.graveolens (remember, if Stewart was correct, this is found @ 1000-270m in Afghanistan & Baluchistan) - apparently immediately recognised by the small notch at the tip of each sepal, a unique feature in this section of the genus Clematis. There are other characteristics but this is straightforward. Most photos and illustrations are not correct - if one follows Grey-Wilson; only the following is K: http://plantillustrations.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=51575&SID=0&mobile=0&code_category_taxon= fits - note the notch and the tip of the sepals! Grey-Wilson makes no mention of the supposed strong smell of this species as to its species name indicates but such characteristics cannot be detected from herbarium specimens - which primarily the material he had to work with. Good close-up photos taken "in the wild" are so useful as are living specimens of known provenance in cultivation. Unfortunately, although the Nagoya Protocol is well-intended, the additional restrictions mean that less reliable material will be available in cultivation - a shame and loss to efforts to conserve plant species...
2. C.tibetana - he gives subsp. vernayi from West & North Nepal & S.Tibet but not Ladakh or anywhere in Indian Trans-Himalaya
I have seen this in the Upper Kali Gandaki Valley, Nepal. There is a C.tibetana subsp. tibetana from Kumaon; it differs principally in is less thick and more pointed sepals. He recognises var. lanciniifolia endemic to West Nepal esp. upper reaches of Upper Kali Ganaki.
I shall be posting my thinking from each entry for C.tibetana and C.ladakhiana in efloraofIndia - most are not correct.....
3. C.ladakhiana - he says this is similar to C.tibetana (which is certainly the case); he does not seem to have seen photos of very attractive forms of this species and does not mention flower colour at all (this is the problem with only being able to examine pressed specimens when
the are few, if any field notes esp. not mentioning flower colour - which often changes when a plant has dried). He says the leaflets are narrow-lanceolate, entire or with one to several acute lobes in the lower half, the apex drawn out into a long acute tip. Sepals lanceolate to elliptical, acute, glabrous outside but silkily pubescent inside.
Most of the images at https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Clematis+ladakhiana%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl are correct but the first has been misidentified! Though as t comes from a gardening forum this comes as no surprise.
4. C.orientalis - he says main features to note are the glaucous lobed or unlobed leaflets and small flowers with reflexed sepals. In combination, these features distinguish it from all other members of this section of the genus. It is certainly an immensely variable species, hardly surprising for a taxon that has a west-east distribution of some 4500km!
5. C.tangutica - I have to say that I find its disjunct distribution rather surprising (though that in essence is normally the case for 'disjunct' distributions..), primarily Western China pus North Kashmir (incl. Ladakh). It has green, serrate-margined leaves and lemon-yellow lantern-flowers. Subspecies are recognised. Sepals drawn out into an acute tip.
I consider it would be helpful, especially for the non-taxonomists (of which I am one) in this google group if I summarise Grey-Wilson's introductory notes to this article as these provide an excellent explanation as to the difficulties faced by taxonomists when trying to "place into neat pigeon-holes of species, subspecies or varieties" plants which exhibit complex variation. After all, their purpose is to clarify and attempt to clear up muddles and confusions which have often existed for 2-3 hundred years!
He rightly states that Clematis species present a number of fundamental problems of classification. Foremost amongst these is the limited number of useful and stable characteristics that can be usefully employed separating species or species complexes. Ranunculaceae in genealis notoriously difficult in this respect, with genera such as Aconitum, Anemone, Delphinium, and Ranunculus, besides Clematis, all with a host of closely interrelated groups of species and species complexes. Species often appear to be quite distinct in one part of their range, whilst overlapping in various characters in another. This is certainly true of C.orientalis and its allies, where the position is further complicated by the occurenc of natural hybrid which 'blur' he species boundaries and complicate identification.
I am in no position to suggest hybrids as the explanation for images, often not showing sufficient overall detail, not fitting satisfactorily into the species of this complex outlined by Grey-Wilson. That is the domain of someone who has specialised in the genus and revised it in the Himalaya. It was Grey-Wilson who named C.ladakhiana. He asked my team from the University of Southampton to collect pressed specimens of Clematis during our 1980 expedtion.
Nevertheless, in the absence of such an authority available to check, then it seems reasonable for me to offer my current thought as to the identity of the Clematis orientalis complex found in the NW Himalaya and Indian Trans-Himalaya - it will certainly represent an improvement on the utter muddle which presently exist - and my provisional identifications can then be corrected or amended in the future but at present the situation is bewildering. Though the same applies to my genera in the NW Himalaya.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>; chrischa...@btinternet.com
Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2016, 5:43
Subject: [efloraofindia:253559] Fwd: Clematis tibetana Kuntze
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