contact cement + vinyl + velcro == win

[Jeremy Shaw]

I built two 6' folding stretch hexayurts this year. One was a traditional design with camp danger bifi hinges. The other used contact cement, vinyl, and velcro.

The contact cement+vinyl+velcro solution definitely required more work up front. But the pay off on the playa was huge! It went up and down so much faster. And, it is already ready to go back up again. There is no per-use consumeables and nothing that has to be cleaned off before the next use.

I have a bunch of video and other details on the build process that I hope to upload 'some day' but the short version is, DO IT!

- jeremy

[Lucas González]

Ooensourceecology has apparently streamlined a process to do collaborative video editing, probably overkill.
We'll wait, I guess, and thanks!

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[Steve Upstill]

All I can say is that my experience of the vinyl-contact cement was very different. I did all the work up front in the expectation of having a years-long solution, only to have my hinges fail: the vinyl simply pulled loose in the heat of the Playa (some places the vinyl just casually lifted as if there was no adhesive there in at all), with a tacky substance on both surfaces that made me wonder how it could have healed at all. Out there, I patched like mad with bifi, and now I'm looking at doing the whole laborious job over again next year. Crap.

So what went wrong? I have three theories:

1) assembly problems, i.e., I put the CC on too thickly, or not thickly enough, or I didn't wait long enough for it to dry, or too long

2) the heat was just too much for it

3) because I laid the vinyl on when the panels were lying on the ground and abutting, actually folding them over the rest of the way put too much tension on the hinge. I did it fairly tight because I wanted some tension in the structure.

If anybody has any information that would help me figure out which theory is correct, I'd be enormously grateful. Could others chime in with their experience? If I'm the only one with failed hinges, that pretty much disposes of theory #2. Also, did people tape over the vinyl with aluminum tape? I'm thinking that under theory #2, the shiny stuff would go a long way to keeping the heat down.

Thanks,

Steve Upstill

[Jeremy Shaw]

Interesting. I did not have any hinge failure. However, closer inspection shows that the CC seems to be a bit tacky in places that were not before arrival. I am curious about this line:

"with a tacky substance on both surfaces that made me wonder how it could have healed at all"

That makes it sound like you attached the two sides while they were still too wet. You know that you are supposed to wait 15-30 minutes for each side to be dry to the touch and then you join them?

I did not put foil tape over the vinyl.. but only because I ran out of time :) I probably will add that before the next use.

For the record, I used 1.5 cans of CC for a 6' stretch hexayurt. I went pretty heavy. And I used 6" wide strips of vinyl.

I beveled my edges and there was quite a bit of tension on the vinyl while it was set up. For each hinge I only had vinyl on one side (unlike the camp danger bifi hinges).

Working with the CC was definitely a pain -- so I would love to find a better fixative. Whatever stuff they used on the back of the velcro seemed to hold up stellar. The CC required a respirator, an outdoor work space away from ignition sources, and made the vinyl warp all funny before it was applied. Plus you had to wait a long time for all the curing -- which is a problem if you were trying to do all the cementing on a small 4x8 deck like I was.

- jeremy

[ken winston caine]

Another possibility, Steve: Is it possible that you and Jeremy used different brands / formulations of contact cement? And / or possibly vastly different formulations of vinyl? 

I know I often run into problems trying to match plastics with glues. 

[Jeremy Shaw]

This is what I used:

http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=35

No idea on the vinyl -- whatever they had at the fabric store.

- jeremy

[Steve Upstill]

Jeremy, 

There's a lot of good data in here. What size cans did you use 1.5 of for each yurt? I used almost two pint cans for two yurts, which leads me to believe that I could have used more. I might have done less hinging than you, though: I did three 4' hinges for the walls and four 9' hinges for the roof (I just left my interior hinges in the old bi-fi, which is holding up well.

Just as a philosophical point, does anybody know if it's possible to use too much CC (as long as you let it dry out)?

Matching plastics to glue, per Ken: I used 12-gauge clear vinyl (http://www.onlinefabricstore.net/vinyl-fabric/clear-vinyl-fabric/12-gauge-clear-vinyl-fabric-.htm?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=amazonproductads) and "original formula" Ace Hardware contact cement.

Cheers,

Steve

[Steve Upstill]

Yeah, that's the one.

[Jeremy Shaw]

The cans I were using were 1 qt / 32 oz. So around 48 oz total. Though I did use it everywhere, including the hinges that were 1/2 velcro.

- jeremy

[Steve Upstill]

Sounds like I need to use roughly twice as much. Are you in the Bay Area, Jeremy? Maybe next year I'll trade some beer for some supervision. :-)

Cheers,

Steve

[Adam Gensler]

Do you guys have pics?  

Sent from my iPhone

[Steve Upstill]

I don't. It's burned (so to speak) into my memory, but I don't have anything I can share.

Steve

[Gavin Harkness]

If I were to use CC and vinyl, I'd be following Tom's instructions at

http://yostwerks.com/

I know he's only talking about vinyl to vinyl, but his instructions a very clear.  I've built one of his kayaks and had no problems.  Although I've have no other experience in using CC, I'd personally stick to using H-66.

[Jeremy Shaw]

I believe that is HH-66. H-66 is a readily biodegradable, anionic, phosphate polyether ester surfactant used a solubilizer for surfactants into low/moderately built detergents. HH-66 Vinyl Cement is a superior quality, fast drying adhesive. It is used extensively for bonding vinyl coated and vinyl laminated fabrics to themselves or to various materials.

If I do more building or repairs, I'll definitely give the HH-66 a shot.

- jeremy

[Steve Upstill]

Interesting data from (finally) reading the (duh) data sheet:

* CC is heatproof "up to" 180•F. 150 seems not to be a problem. So much for the desert heat.

* Declared coverage of 216 sq. ft./gallon, PER SIDE. I was using about 48 linear feet of 6" hinges, or 96 ft.^2 for two yurts, both sides, or a little less than half a gallon. I used a little less than a quart all up. So, prior theory correct: insufficient coverage.

* 15 minutes' dry time called for. I was probably running 6-8 minutes. Second explanation. PS surfaces can be attached up to 2 hours after application. Plenty of head room there.

So let that be a warning to others: use plenty, and give it plenty of time to dry. On to next year!

Cheers,

Steve

[Gavin Harkness]

That's the stuff.  My mistake.

[Frank H]

Interesting idea, especially the recent posts about 3m77 pulling loose in some cases.

(FWIW) Not long ago I had occasion to talk with 3M tech support about a similar problem.  (Note:  they are very helpful, and knowledgeable about their adhesive products.)

3M tech support told me that 3M77 adhesive will not reliably withstand high temperatures.  Even though they state a maximum temp of 180oF, it will begin to soften below that temperature.

I ignored the warning, and used it anyway.  Our use was to adhere white duck tape to a black polypropylene cloth surface which is continuously exposed to full weather and sunlight.  We hypothesized that the white tape surface would keep the temperature low enough to avoid problems.  Unfortunately, this was not the case, and the tape has pulled loose in many places.

3M recommended Scotch-Weld™ Neoprene High Performance Contact Adhesive 1357, which has a maximum working temperature of 230oF.  It costs more than the contact cements that others in this thread have used, but it might be worth the extra expense.

[Alexander Griffin]

Wow! Until I found this thread I thought I was the only one who tried to build a Hexayurt with velcro for on Playa assembly instead of BiDi tape.  This past summer (2013) I made the standard H12 hexayurt design using velcro joints.   Basic specs of this yurt:

* 1" Thermasheath RMAX material  (12 pieces total for build)

* 500D Cordura, cut into 6" strips (same width as the BiDi tape I used for rest of construction)

* Barge Glue (1 quart was almost enough for the whole construction)

* 2" wide commercial grade hook-and-loop strips, no adhesive back

* All bevelled edge design (absolutely no Camp Danger hinges)

* 6" BiDi tape for permanent hinged sections

* 2 hinged roof cone sections (6 triangles each)

* 3 hinged wall sections (2 panels each)

It took me several experiments with different glues and different synthetic cloth materials to come up with the Barge Glue and Cordura combination.    The key factors were finding a glue that (1) would adhere well to the aluminum backing, and (2) wouldn't break down in the Black Rock City heat.   To test (2), I used a heat gun set at 100 C to see if the glue would soften up or separate from the RMAX.  Most did, including the DAP material I see some folks have tried.  Barge Glue held up.

Some other details about my H12 construction:

* The velcro "eye" material was sewn (face down) onto one side of the 6" cordura strips with a standard sewing machine.  The other side of the strip was glued permanently onto the roof or wall sections.

* The velcro "hook" material was glued to the foil.

* I followed the Barge Glue instructions exactly, coating both surfaces and waiting a few minutes for it to set before applying strip to foil.  Work outdoors -- the stuff stinks to high heaven!

* Standard BiDi hinge taping was done on all permanent hinges - five 8' or 9' hinges on each roof section, one 4' hinge on each wall section.

Some "learning experiences" along the way:

* I bought dark blue Cordura material, thinking it would look sharp against the silvery yurt.  However I quickly learned in the test setup that it soaked up a lot of heat, which transferred inside the yurt.   Before I took it to the Playa I painted the roof strips with white paint.  Covering with foil tape may be in the future, we'll see....

* I bought one large quart bottle of Barge Glue. By the time I was getting to the bottom the glue was very thick and hard to work with due to evaporation.  I think two or three pint sized bottles would be easier.

* Tried using neodymium magnets embedded in the door and door frame to keep it closed without a latch mechanism.  Turned out not to work at all against the wind on the Playa, and ended up throwing shoes in front of the door to keep it closed.

The end result:

The yurt was my residence for Burning Man 2013.  It was a total success.  With 6 people (it was very windy so I needed more people to help hold it down) the thing went up in less than 10 minutes!  No taping, no hassle.  Amazing.

At the end of the week, 3 people were able to take it apart gently in less than 15 minutes.  Packing it up in its crate took another 15 minutes.

If you will be in or near the Washington D.C. area this April 2014, I will be showing the assembly of this yurt at a Hexayurt Construction Workshop.  Location and exact date are TBD at this time, so check the DC Burning Man Meetup Group for details.

[Jeremy Shaw]

Yeah, I think my contact cement did soften on the playa. I used enough
and wide enough strips that it all stayed together. I'll look into
barge glue next time.

I also used neodymium magnets for the door latches. If anything, they
were almost too strong. Definitely did not have any issues with the
door opening when it shouldn't. Not sure if it was the magnets or some
other aspect of the door. I had on oval shaped door that was beveled
at 45° -- wider on the outside than the inside. That means the wind
could not possibly blow the door in -- it would instead have to
somehow suck the door out.

- jeremy

[Alexander Griffin]

I'd be interested to know how big your magnets were, and where you placed them.  Did you use magnet-to-magnet, or magnet-to-metal?    I was using magnet-to-metal thinking that magnets (2 of them on same side) would hold a steel plate well enough.    The door I made was rectangular, approx. 36" tall by 30" wide.  Bevelled at 30 degrees on two edges only, the top edge and the edge opposite the hinge.

For the most part there was enough friction on the bottom edge (no bevel) that the door would stay closed, and there wasn't enough wind at nighttime to push it open.  For daytime, I threw a pair of shoes or water jugs against it to keep it shut when I was away.  Next year I have to re-do the magnets or make a handle with latch.

Barge glue was the best stuff for the job in my experiments, and I tried:  2-ton epoxy, superglue, DAP CC, silicone sealant (RTV), Liquid Nails and some others.   Most wouldn't hold onto the aluminum even at room temperatures.    I was surprised Liquid Nails didn't work well, its product brief indicated one of its applications was insulation foam board.

--Wolf

[Jeremy Shaw]

I used 1/2" magnets similar to these,

http://www.amazon.com/Neodymium-Magnets-inch-Disc-N48/dp/B001KV38ES/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390925836&sr=8-1&keywords=1%2F2%22+neodymium

I did magnet-to-magnet. I believe I only used a single set in the
middle of the door. The hold was strong enough that I was actually
mildly concerned about the stress it put on the polyiso to open it.

Also, I did orient my yurt so that the door faced away from the wind.
Not sure if that made a difference.

- jeremy

[Chris Jurney]

This is pretty similar to what I'm planning to build, but I have one concern... how did you make your velcro joints water proof?  Also, I'm guessing you got adhesiveless velcro and contact cemented it on?

Thanks for posting your victory.

[Jeremy Shaw]

I used this velcro (except white),

http://www.amazon.com/Velcro-Brand-Industrial-Strength-Inches/dp/B00006IC2T/

I think I used only its built-in self-adhesive properties. Seemed to
hold fine. The 2" of velcro is definitely enough. It takes
substantial, purposeful force to get the velcro joints apart. I did
not experience any failures with the built-in adhesive failing -- but
I also don't think I experienced much substantial wind last year.
Plus, I beveled by edges and used ratchet straps in such a manner that
I think I was not too dependent on the various vinyl/velcro joints. I
think a lot of the structural integrity came from the compression
strength of the straps holding the yurt together -- so the other
systems were not stressed much.

I would definitely recommend checking out the barge glue. While my
contact cement yurt held together fine -- I do think the contact
cement did soften in the playa.

- jeremy

[Ray S]

This is some great information!  I'd love to do this same thing, but curious if anyone else has had success with the Barge Glue, Cordura and commercial grade 2" Velcro?  Also has anyone tried doing this same concept to attach the tarp to the Hexayurt walls with Velcro?  Also do you connect the roof to the walls via this velcro method as well?  (Replacing the tape ring).  If anyone's interested I used a rare earth magnet which I embedded flush into my wall next to the door, then had a strip of metal which was taped to my door, so that when it was shut it came into contact with the magnet.  This worked great and the wind never opened it up!

[Jeremy Shaw]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Ray S <ray.se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also do you connect the roof to
> the walls via this velcro method as well? (Replacing the tape ring).

In my case, I modeled mine after this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itb3VG6zcdc

The joints that he has to take apart I used velcro instead of
tape/vinyl/etc. Additionally, I also made the joint across the roof be
velcro so that I actually had two separate halves. I did that, in
part, because it is the only way it would fit the yurt down the stairs
and out of my apartment. Except -- I forgot to actually put the velcro
on (oops). So, on the playa, the top joint wasn't fastened at all.
But, running ratchet straps over the top seemed to hold the top
together plenty well. Plus it did have the velcro on the angled parts
of the roof. Only the completely horizontal part lacked velcro.

- jeremy

[Ray S]

So just to clarify a bit more - Jeremy it sounds like you actually put Velcro inside of the angled joints, so that when the yurt was put into position it would come into contact?  If so, this seems a bit different than Alexander's description, as it appears he took a 6" piece of Cordura, sewed loops to that, glued the Cordura to the flat part of a joining side, and then glued the hooks to the other joining side, so the velcro is not inside the angled joints themselves, but on the outside facing.  I have an H12 yurt and am thinking this may be more robust for the bigger yurts.  Alexander, any chance you could link us to the Velcro you bought?  I found some hook and loop 2" velcro at $50 for 50 yards on ebay, but not sure if the strength will be comparable.

-Ray

[Jeremy Shaw]

No -- I did essentially what Alex did. For most of my joints, I used
6" wide strips of glued on. But for the velcro joints, I only glued
the 3" on the one permanent side. On the other half I attached the
velco. I have videos and stuff. It would help if I dug those out.

- jeremy

[Alexander Griffin]

I will be happy to share all my sources for materials.

The Barge Glue was purchased from a seller through Amazon.com.   It cost about $40 including shipping.  Amazon # B0032YYOFS

The velcro came from McMaster-Carr.   Item number 9273K82

You will note that this item does NOT include self-adhesive.  This was for two reasons:  (1) I don't trust the adhesive backing for durability in the long-haul, (2) I always intended to sew the loops part to the bottom side of the Cordura, and it is nigh impossible to sew through a glued surface-- it gums up sewing needles very quickly.

The 500D Cordura was purchased from a domestic eBay seller.  I purchased 2 yards of 60" wide material and it was almost exactly enough to do my H12 hexayurt with 6" strips.

To clarify an earlier question about attaching roof cone to base:  Yes, I used the Velcro+Cordura combination everywhere you usually would use tape for assembly.  My hexayurt has twelve 4' Cordura strips permanently attached to the twelve roof triangle sections.  On assembly I use plastic clamps on the roof to pull them back, so the eye velcro doesn't come in contact hook velcro(on the base) until everything is centered and ready to be sealed. Without the clamps, the strips droop below the eave level and could make assembly really difficult if they keep sticking to the hooks before you're ready.

And one more important point:  The non-Velcro side of the Cordura is glued to the roof cone, NOT the base.  This is for a very specific reason.  Think: water runoff.

I have pictures of the first assembly of my yurt somewhere.  If anyone is interested I'll try to post them.  (Can I do that here?)

--Alexander / aka Wolf

[Alexander Griffin]

Here's pictures of WolfYurt 2.0 -- my H12 standard hexayurt made with velcro and cordura hinges.   Many photos show details on how I beveled edges, marked for tape and glue, taping procedures.   Hope these photos help folks who are going this route.  I'd love to visit other Hexayurts that use velcro on the Playa in 2014.  If you're going, please let me know how to find you!

https://picasaweb.google.com/108951071311580566182/2013H12HexayurtWolfYurt20?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCK2mqaPt0JOwJw&feat=directlink

And... I was wrong.  Apparently all my Cordura straps are 5" wide, not 6".  Sorry 'bout that.

--Wolf

[Robert Atkins]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 8:58:05 PM UTC+1, Alexander Griffin wrote:
> Here's pictures of WolfYurt 2.0 -- my H12 standard hexayurt made with velcro and cordura

The way the roof cone "flaps" attach to the wall sections, aren't you losing the structural integrity granted by having an unbroken tension band going around the top of the walls? I thought this was important.

You could get this back by sticking your Velcro hook tape around the top of the wall panels and the bottom of the roof panels, then having the loops sewn to one long ribbon of cordura that went all the way around (and then stuck to itself at the end/start with another little patch of hook and loop on the outside.)

Also, your roof folds into six separate "chunks"?

Cheers, Robert.

[Alexander Griffin]

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 7:21:11 PM UTC-5, Robert Atkins wrote:

On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 8:58:05 PM UTC+1, Alexander Griffin wrote:
> Here's pictures of WolfYurt 2.0 -- my H12 standard hexayurt made with velcro and cordura

The way the roof cone "flaps" attach to the wall sections, aren't you losing the structural integrity granted by having an unbroken tension band going around the top of the walls? I thought this was important.

I don't see why there needs to be a tension band at the top of the walls ("eaves").  The walls are held together firmly in a circle by a combination of hinges and velcro seals. It is not going to expand apart on its own any more than a fully taped yurt.   The roof cone itself is held together with the same tension points as any traditional taped yurt.  Can you explain to me why you think a constant ring of unbroken tape is needed to keep a yurt erect?   I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see why from an intuitive perspective or in practice.

 

You could get this back by sticking your Velcro hook tape around the top of the wall panels and the bottom of the roof panels, then having the loops sewn to one long ribbon of cordura that went all the way around (and then stuck to itself at the end/start with another little patch of hook and loop on the outside.)

I don't ever want velcro seals at the bottom of the roof cone.  If water runs down the roof it will get under the velcro seal and then into the yurt.

  

 

Also, your roof folds into six separate "chunks"?

No, two separate sections.   Each section is made of six triangles, which include a combination of standard and bifolded beveled hinges using BiDi tape.  There are only two velcro seams attaching the roof cone sections to each other, as seen in blue in the photos.

--Wolf

[Robert Atkins]

On Friday, March 7, 2014 4:25:32 PM UTC+1, Alexander Griffin wrote:

I don't see why there needs to be a tension band at the top of the walls ("eaves").  The walls are held together firmly in a circle by a combination of hinges and velcro seals. It is not going to expand apart on its own any more than a fully taped yurt.   The roof cone itself is held together with the same tension points as any traditional taped yurt.  Can you explain to me why you think a constant ring of unbroken tape is needed to keep a yurt erect?   I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see why from an intuitive perspective or in practice.

As I understood it, the "tension band" is the fundamental engineering centrepiece of yurt design in general (not just hexayurts.) From http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt_H13

"...however a door that size will cut into the tape tension ring that also creates major stability in the hexayurt."

The way I intuit the whole thing works is that your tape anchors' or rope halo's tendency to pull the roof down is kept in check by the tension ring of tape around the top of the walls (which also incidentally seals the roof on.) Without the unbroken tension ring, you will have stress points at the top corners of the wall panels and they will tend to want to split, especially if the yurt comes under a lateral load (wind.) The tension band evenly distributes this load around the whole structure.

Vinay (or someone who's actually a structural engineer) might be able to provide a better reference, or correct me?

 

I don't ever want velcro seals at the bottom of the roof cone.  If water runs down the roof it will get under the velcro seal and then into the yurt.

I guess. You could add some kind of flashing (a tape flap or something) to avoid this though. Or maybe a ratchet strap tightened over the cordura at the top of the wall might make a good tension band, reinforcing your velcro arrangement.

 

Also, your roof folds into six separate "chunks"?

No, two separate sections.   Each section is made of six triangles, which include a combination of standard and bifolded beveled hinges using BiDi tape.  There are only two velcro seams attaching the roof cone sections to each other, as seen in blue in the photos.

Oh right, there aren't any "camp danger loose hinges" in a standard bifi roof cone are there—what about the walls then, two separate sections or three? I guess the extra wall seam to tape wouldn't be a big deal with the re-usable velcro seals—which gives me an idea for a H4 design which will pack flat into a standard 4x8 plywood sandwich...

Cheers, Robert.

[Joshua Slocum]

You've inspired me to build my own cordura/velcro yurt (H12). I'm attempting to make it 100% reusable: no bi-filament tape. 

My plan is to make a semi-folding yurt, with hinges made out of cordura and barge glue. 

The seams on the dome and walls will be done with cordura + velcro, similar to Alexander's design. 

The tarp will be attached to the walls with velcro on the inside, to keep dust and water out. 

Tie-down straps will be made with cordura strips that attach to the dome with velcro; the ends will have a sewn loop reinforced with nylon webbing for standard tow-straps and playa staples to stake it down. 

I'll try to post build pics/updates as I'm going along, in case anyone is interested or wants to replicate it later. 

Josh

[Jacob Rodriguez]

I love the idea of using velcro with vinyl/c.cement, but I'm concerned that velcro wouldn't hold a yurt together in 60mph winds. Does it hold better than I'm thinking?

Also, is it fairly water proof? I'd be worried about water coming in should there be a big [enough] storm. I had thought about velcro before deciding on vinyl and contact cement, but I dismissed it because I figured with a hard enough wind, it would only take one flap to become undone and it could all become playa-bound mobile art.

Also, the really good "nasa-grade" velcro is fairly pricy when you need a lot.

I have recently been thinking about size #10 zippers and waterproof flaps that velcro over.

I'll definitely be looking at barge glue. I thought contact cement was as good as it got for price/value/availability, but this stuff sounds interesting.

[Alexander Griffin]

Jacob and Josh -

I really hope you guys pursue your interests to build with Velcro.  I really feel it is the way to go.

In the past few weeks I refurbished my H7 modified stretch yurt to use Velcro seams so it is now a combination of Bi-Di taped hinges and Velcro/Cordura straps.  It is now a 0% waste (no tape needed for assembly) hexayurt and I am very happy with the outcome!   We used it at PEX Summer Festival earlier this month and it worked great.  As an added bonus, I found that I could vent the yurt by slipping open the Velcro on a small roof section and fold it back. Instant fresh air gratification!  And it would have been impossible to do that with a taped yurt.   Like my (newer) H12, I used the same formula of 500D cordura, Barge Glue, and 2" wide velcro.  Worked like a charm.

Josh: If you have any photos yet I'd love to see if you have any mods or variations in your build.

Jacob:  For any yurt, surviving high winds is going to depend a lot on how you rope/stake down the construction.   I think many people make a mistake of putting their guy lines at 90 degree angles to the ground.  But for better wind shear resistance it is better to have some angle, like 30 or 45 degrees.    I have no doubt that the Barge Glue and cordura is going to hold up to the wind; the bond to the Thermasheath panels is as strong or stronger than Bi-Di tape.

Velcro has excellent side shear grip but poor vertical grip -- that is what makes Velcro useful and reusable.  All of your straps should use only sideways shear stress in your design. If any strap is at an angle other than sideways shear, Velcro is going to be your weakest link.    Also bear in mind: the wider the Velcro, the more strength you get.   I have not felt that anything wider than 2" was necessary, but you can certainly buy wider stuff.

I'l be honest and say I haven't tested either yurt in the rain so I don't know how well the Cordura and glue seals resist water.  But if you're careful to keep the glue evenly spread and are careful to squeeze out air bubbles when you attach pieces together, you should have a very good waterproof seal.

For the first (and probably only) time, BOTH of my hexayurts are going to be on Playa at the same time, in the same camp.  I'm excited!

--Wolf

[Joshua Slocum]

My build is a standard 8' yurt. However it differs from your build in that the hinges are all cordura as well. 

How did you attach the tarp to your yurt? I'm planning on using contact cement to glue Velcro strips to a tarp. Do you have any suggestions?

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[Joshua Slocum]

I think 2" Velcro along the entire seam should be plenty strong.

My yurt is designed so that it does not rely on Velcro for waterproofing.  Water would have to flow "up" (or 2" sideways) in order to go through the Velcro. 

I spent ~$200 on the Velcro and another $60 on cordura - not much more than the cost of tape, and you don't have to pay for more tape on later years.

I thought about zippers. Waterproof ones are quite expensive. You could do a design like mine, where the "active" seams don't need to be waterproof. That could be done economically. I'm not quite sure what the seam would look like though.

My understanding is that barge glue is just a brand-name contact cement. 

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[Chris Jurney]

An update on our 6 yurt build.  We have finished our construction.  It was a long and grueling process.  10 days of work over 5 weekends with an average of 6 people per day.  Here's some broad strokes on what we did.

Our yurts are tight vinyl joints that velcro together via vinyl flaps.  On playa, they will assembly with some rubbing of the velco in a few minutes.  We also have a vinyl velcro in floor.  We used billboard vinyl from this site ( http://billboardtarps.myshopify.com/ ) for all our joints and floors.

We bought Hunter Xci 286 panels.

We used red cans of Dap contact cement for all joints (vinyl to vinyl, vinyl to foil, vinyl to velcro).  We also tried the "low odor" green, but couldn't make it stick.  This seems very strong if applied thick, allowed to dry fully, then pressed firmly together.  If you do a step wrong, like not waiting until dry, or skip firm pressing, the joint will be weak.  The playa will tell if this is a 10 year solution like we hope.

We also used Loctite in a few places.  It holds very well if the vinyl is sanded and water is applied before squirting, but make sure you get a form of Loctite that can handle heat.  Some types can be removed by applying heat over 140 degrees, which felt too close to our shipping container's possible peak temperature to risk.  We used stuff that goes up to 400F before failing.  We didn't use this in many spots primarily because the joints take 24 hours to dry instead of 30 minutes to an hour and because the joints dry rigid, so it can't be used on flexible flaps.

In places where I mention using contact cement, the process is to lay out the 2 pieces to be joined, slopping a thick even layer of cement on both, waiting 30 to 60 minutes for it to be dry / tacky but not come away in the thickest spots with a finger (like it says on the instructions), then carefully pressing the 2 parts together and rubbing the joint hard.  Once 2 pieces of contact cement touch, their love is forever, so align carefully.

Construction went something like this:

1. Beveled all panels to the angle they will join at (30 degrees on verticals and wall horizontal joints, ~15 degrees on roof corners).
2. Wrapped foam edges of panels in vinyl with contact cement and 6" wide vinyl strips
3. Glued a sheet of half inch plywood to the back of a rectangle to allow for a structural door
4. Cut a door and AC port through the wood attached panels
5. Reattached the door with a vinyl strip
6. Joined all triangles and rectangles together into pairs with tight inside joints
7. Joined all triangle pairs together into rooves
8. Joined all rectangle pairs together into walls, with the door on one end
9. Applied hook velcro to the outside of the top edge of the wall, the inside ring where the floor will attach, the outside vertical where the ring closes, and one side of the roof opening
10. Applied a vinyl flap with loop velcro to the opposite vertical, the other side of the roof opening, and around the ring of the roof as an eave / roof attachment
11. Celebrated a completed yurt

Other details... we left some slack in the vinyl strips joining triangles that hand out past the wall joint to be used for tie downs.  We'll be putting grommets through the vinyl that we'll rope through.

Overall, I can't necessarily endorse this method.  It works, and I think we will have the most super advanced hexayurts science has produced, but the labor time was enormous due to all the time spent waiting for contact cement to dry.  Laying out the 100s of vinyl strips, painting them, and trying to keep the wind from flopping them onto each other before we could apply them was also a nightmare (eventually we glued them down with a blob of contact cement while it dried which doesn't cure because it's not exposed to air).  Maybe that stuff is less of a problem if you do 1 yurt instead of 6 at once like we did, but if we make yurts for other members in the future, it will almost certainly be out of some kind of tape instead of vinyl.

We have a few construction shots I'll post later.

If you want to inspect our work, we're Cafe Surprise, and we'll be camping at 4:45 and Basra.  Look for the "French" maitre d out front at the podium.

Happy to answer questions.

Joshua, contact cement worked for us joining velcro to vinyl and velcro to wood, just make sure you slop it on thick enough and let it dry before attaching.  It's stronger than the velcro joint, but if you pull directly on the 2 pieces, you can get them to separate.  Sanding the vinyl first helped, but we didn't do that due to time for most joints.  In places where the velcro was going onto a flap instead of a panel, we also used office staples as a secondary physical connector.

[Jeremy Shaw]

Apparently today is 'someday'. I have uploaded a brief video I shot on
the playa showing off my vinyl+velcro hexayurt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1MiKiIaf9Q

Although not mentioned in the video, I completely forgot to attach the
velcro on the roof peak. So the top of the roof isn't being held
together by anything at all. But, despite that it was still very
sturdy. I never felt like it was in any danger of going anywhere. I
think that is because I beveled the edges and strapped it down tight
with the racket straps. The straps+bevel cause the thing to stay up
nicely via compression. I feel like there is no chance that the velcro
would come undone by itself. It required significant force to undo it
on purpose in the direction it is designed to come apart. All the
tension put on it by the yurt is trying to pull it apart sideways,
which is much harder.

I used 6" wide strips of vinyl with copious amounts of contact cement.
The cement did soften a bit. I'll bring barge glue this time in case I
have to do any touchups.

I have other videos of the construction process somewhere. Perhaps
they will also appear on another someday.

- jeremy

[Hunter]

Addendum to Chris's update:

The vinyl + Velcro combo is an excellent way to make a yurt which can be put up quickly (we did it in 10 mins while high on contact glue fumes). If I were doing it again I would do a tape/vinyl+velco combination. For easy up you want he vinyl Velcro combo on the joints which attach the roof to itself, the base to itself, and the multiple joints attaching the roof to the base.

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[Joshua Slocum]

I sewed all my Velcro on, and use cordura rather than vinyl. I also opted to use foil tape on the edges rather than vinyl, which I think reduces the amount of gluing significantly. 

What did you use to cut the door out after gluing the plywood onto the foam?

How did you make the floor?

Thanks,

Josh

[Hunter]

On Jul 28, 2014 8:57 PM, "Joshua Slocum" <jfsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I sewed all my Velcro on, and use cordura rather than vinyl. I also opted to use foil tape on the edges rather than vinyl, which I think reduces the amount of gluing significantly. 
>
> What did you use to cut the door out after gluing the plywood onto the foam?

Hand held Jigsaw at an angle. We used a drill to start the doors.

> How did you make the floor?

We haven't finished attaching the velcro to all of the floors but thus far here is our plan:
Vinyl, cut so it can extend one foot up the walls. We used 2" Velcro locktighted to the walls (sanded first) and stapled/locktighted to the vinyl. The staples are mainly to hold the glue in place while we move/store it.

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[Hunter]

I'd use gorilla tape in the future to tape the edges. Just enough to cover cover the exposed edges but with enough exposed polyiso board to make a solid seal for the joints.

[Joshua Slocum]

Why gorilla tape as opposed to foil tape?

On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 12:26 AM, Hunter <never...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd use gorilla tape in the future to tape the edges. Just enough to cover cover the exposed edges but with enough exposed polyiso board to make a solid seal for the joints.

--

[Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project)]

Jeremy, thank you very much for making that video. It's absolutely exemplary - something people can really learn from, and a nice exploration of The State of the Art (you put it up *yourself* in that length of time... I'm all ears!)

Can I put it up on hexayurt.com? It's just a really beautiful example of Community Documentation.

V>

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Free Science and Engineering in the Global Public Interest

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"In the midst of winter,  I finally learned that there was 

        in me an invincible summer" - Albert Camus

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[Hunter]

On Jul 30, 2014 6:59 AM, "Joshua Slocum" <jfsl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why gorilla tape as opposed to foil tape?

We had issues with foil tape maintaining good contact on high humidity build days (we were in Pacifica). The edge of foil tape is rather sharp. If you pick up a hexayurt while foil tape is sticking out you can cut yourself. At least two of us bleed quite a bit on our yurts due to this.

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[Lucas González]

Hey, so, nice video. And it has quite good automatic subtitles, which could be improved.

If anyone wants to help, basically _for the fun of it_,
please go to http://piratepad.net/velcrohexayurt
and maybe use http://sourceforge.net/projects/google2srt/ to download the raw subtitles provided by google/youtube,
then copypaste that to the 'pad,
make it perfect,
then i'd upload to amara.org,
translate into spanish (my dark motivation, you guessed right),
etc

sounds like some work but
bit by bit
we can help document stuff
for the next wave of yurters?

whole methodology here https://edgeryders.eu/help-fellow-edgeryder/mission_case/one-glad-be-service
(plus newer improvements done by the amara.org and etherpad.org folks of course!

@lucasgonzalez (spain)

[Chris Jurney]

In the end the foil tape did have the side benefit of providing our yurts with the blood sacrifice required for a strong structure given unholy blessing by Those Below.

[Vinay Gupta (Hexayurt Shelter Project)]

Thank you, Lucas! Love to see this stuff translated, it's such a nice video.

V>

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"In the midst of winter,  I finally learned that there was 

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[Hunter]

Awesome video Lucus.

Quick questions:

1) Did you have any vent for your swamp cooler? In general how well did it work?

2) Did you have any problems with your door hinge?

[Lucas González]

Piratepad.net/velcrohexayurt has the rough automagic transcript. If anyone with a better ear than mine can improve it, I'd be glad to upload to Amara.org and translate into Spanish.

I learn the details, this gets a somewhat wider audience, we sharpen the documentation tool... Ah, also, oTranscribe.org lets you slow down the audio, and apparently works with video?

[Lucas González]

The video is not mine!

I'm just volunteering towards subtitling in English, then eventually translating the subtitles into Spanish.

[Austin Desautels]

Josh, I'm attempting the very same thing, though I can't begin construction for another two weeks - would be great to hear/see how it goes for you!

-a

[Joshua Slocum]

We just had our first gluing session on wednesday. This sunday we're hoping to do the lion's share of the gluing. I'll be sure to take some pictures. 

Sewing is nearly complete - only the anchors still need to be done. They are long strips of cordura with velcro sewn on - one end terminates in a webbing loop where tow straps can pass through and attach to playa staples. 

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[Jordan Rinke]

With the bevelled edges how do you do your hinges? Obviously camp danger hinges won't work. Do you just only tape one side of the hinge or what? Having trouble finding good info on it - but basically about to start the same build with an H13but I have only done flat cuts and danger hinges previously.

[Joshua Slocum]

One side of the hinge has cordura and glue.

On Aug 4, 2014, at 16:58, Jordan Rinke <jorda...@gmail.com> wrote:

With the bevelled edges how do you do your hinges? Obviously camp danger hinges won't work. Do you just only tape one side of the hinge or what? Having trouble finding good info on it - but basically about to start the same build with an H13but I have only done flat cuts and danger hinges previously.

--

[Joshua Slocum]

Some pics from our build-session on Sunday:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7krB_7bUPTNMmo4UUxrZ0I4REE&usp=sharing

All the gluing is quite a bit of work, and velcro is expensive. As I've been building I've been thinking about how to make the whole process easier and cheaper if anyone else decides to make one.

- for velcro seams, use 4" wide velcro strips rather than sewing velcro to fabric - eliminates sewing time; costs slightly less.

- use bi-filament tape for non-detachable seams. Just be sure to foil tape any exposed bf tape. Should cost a bit less, and be a bit quicker than making seams with glue and fabric.

- I also think using 8' of velcro on either side of the seam for anchors may have been overkill. If I were to make another one of these, I'd probably use just half that amount. 

[Frank Heasley]

You can get velcro that has a strong adhesive backing in 75mm wide strips, from www.hobbyking.com (US Warehouse).  It's only $2.74 per meter.  It is very strong, and grabs really well.

Their US warehouse ships via USPS, and rather quickly.

[Joshua Slocum]

Yeah, there are several places on the internet that sell adhesive backed velcro. However from what I can tell, most of them don't fare so well against heat, so I'd be concerned about them coming off in a strong wind or during takedown. 

I'm still trying to figure out a mechanical solution. 

[Hunter]

We used contact cement to connect the vinyl to the Velcro. I second using bidi tape for the permanent joints.

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[Frank Heasley]

I just did a quick test on the HK velcro using a heat gun and infrared surface temp meter.  At 100oF, the adhesive melts.

Note, however, that they also sell the same material without the adhesive backing, which would allow you to use a different kind of glue.

[Hunter]

Did you happen to get the melting point for red dap contact cement?

[Frank Heasley]

I also tested 3m strapping tape and 11mm heavy duty duct tape.

The duct tape was pretty good.  Started to soften around 125oF.

However, the strapping tape was superior.  It didn't soften at all, remained strongly bonded up to 130oF.

Note:  these tests were very sloppy.  I used 1/2" polyurethane insulation, and applied the tapes to the foil side.  A more accurate test would be to attach weights to the tape, and then heat the bond while monitoring temperature until it slides off.  As I've decided not to build a yurt myself, I'll leave this for someone else who may be more interested.

I didn't test any solvent based adhesives.

[Hunter]

Awesome work. Thanks for the info.

[Wolf]

Thought I'd post a followup on my velcro H12. Today I unpacked and washed it in preparation for BM 2016. This was the first time I'd looked at it since it was packed away at BM last summer.

The velcro, 500D cordura and Barge glue are all holding up magnificently well! (Almost) no repairs were needed which surprised me considering how windy and dusty it was last year. There was only one piece of cordura that needed about 6" of re-glue. Other repairs were just fixing typical dents and rips in the foamboard... damage mostly caused in transport.

This will be my H12's fifth trip to the Playa! And since I posted my original write-up, this yurt also survived Frostburn 2015, the year it was -7F with a -35F windchill.

I am definitely getting my money's worth out of this thing.

If you're building a new yurt and have the option to use Velcro... do it!

[Steve Upstill]

Wolf, could you recap the specs for your velcro, vinyl and glue (pref. purchase links)? I tried vinyl and contact cement a couple of years ago, and I obviously used the wrong something b/c the joints failed.

Thanks,

Steve "Swifty" Upstill

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[Joshua Slocum]

I used 1000d cordura and barge glue and my joints are still holding strong. I covered all fabric in  reflective tape for UV protection, too. I found gold Mylar worked best for this as foil tape eventually cracks and tears from repetitive flexing and folding.

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[Wolf]

There is no reason to recap. This is Google Groups and all previous posts on this thread should be visible to you. See my previous posts on 1/27/14 and 2/17/14.

[Wolf]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 9:15:38 PM UTC-4, Joshua Slocum wrote:

I used 1000d cordura and barge glue and my joints are still holding strong. I covered all fabric in  reflective tape for UV protection, too. I found gold Mylar worked best for this as foil tape eventually cracks and tears from repetitive flexing and folding.

Joshua - if you're going to be on playa this year I'd love to see how you did your yurt. I saw your construction pics earlier and you did several things similar to how I made mine. It'd be fun to compare notes.

--Wolf

 

[Steve Upstill]

Well, there were 62 messages in the thread, with various recommendations at various times, and you seem to have changed your ID along the way. But I appreciate the link back to specific dates.

Cheers,

Steve

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 6:27 PM Wolf <rea...@gmail.com> wrote:

There is no reason to recap. This is Google Groups and all previous posts on this thread should be visible to you. See my previous posts on 1/27/14 and 2/17/14.

--

[Chris Jurney]

We used white billboard vinyl and the red can contact cement for our joints.  In places where the velcro was not backed by the insulation panels we also stapled through which helped a ton.  The vinyl to panel and vinyl to vinyl joints are strong but not unbreakable if you twist the joint.  The velcro to vinyl and velcro to panel joints are weaker and we will have to repair some on playa when we arrive this year.  Overall, a big success, but it seems like barge glue might work a bit better than the contact cement we got (red cans from Home Depot).  Observing it on neighbor yurts it felt like a stronger bond to some of the materials involved.

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[Joshua Slocum]

I sewed the velcro to the fabric on mine. I haven't had any trouble with the velcro and vinyl separating. 

I have had a few issues because the velcro-velcro attachment is approximately as strong as the attachment of the panel's surface to the panel's foam: if I pull too hard/quickly I sometimes end up tearing the surface off the panel along with both sides of the velcro. I haven't yet figured out a solution for this. Using thinner/weaker velcro might be a good idea. Or finding some mechanical anchors to affix the velcro to the foamboard. 

[dko...@gmail.com]

First of all, a huge thanks to everyone in this thread for sharing their knowledge. I'm looking to do an H12 yurt myself and this thread totally inspired to me to try something more interesting than BDF tape. This is my first time, so I have a few questions/thoughts:

1. How do you attach the yurt to the tarp? Is that just tape, or velcro there as well?

2. Has anyone done a permanent join (or hinge) using cordura between panels? I'm thinking that barge cement + cordura would be a lot stronger and more durable than BDFT.

3. For H12 yurts, how do you reach the top of the roof to disassemble? It seems like putting it together should be super easy, but I worry about take down.

4. Is HH-66 vinyl cement the best known solution for bonding vinyl to the foam panels?

Thanks!

[Joshua Slocum]

1. I used velcro on the inside. 

2. That's precisely what I used. It's worked great so far. 

3. You take off the roof, then turn it upside down. 

4. No idea. I've used only barge glue + cordura. 

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[Hunter]

1. How do you attach the yurt to the tarp? Is that just tape, or velcro there as well?

We used velcro. It works reasonable well with the exception that the velcro we purchased doesn't adhere strongly to the foam panels. Perhaps we just used the wrong adhesive.

2. Has anyone done a permanent join (or hinge) using cordura between panels? I'm thinking that barge cement + cordura would be a lot stronger and more durable than BDFT.

We used billboard vinyl and it's been great. I'd imagine cordura would be equally good.

3. For H12 yurts, how do you reach the top of the roof to disassemble? It seems like putting it together should be super easy, but I worry about take down.

We have two people and just take the entire top off and fold it up on the ground. 

4. Is HH-66 vinyl cement the best known solution for bonding vinyl to the foam panels?

Unknown. The red can contact cement worked well for vinyl to foam.

[Joshua Slocum]

Yurt update: I am pleased to report that my all cordura+velcro hexayurt has survived its third year. The panels are all still in excellent condition. I have not had to perform any structural patches or repairs so far - I believe that should be the case for at least another year. Some cosmetic wear is becoming apparent: the reflective tape on the cordura joints is starting to fall off in places. For future yurts it might be better to sew on a reflective fabric instead of using tape, for increased durability. There are a couple of places where the velcro is starting to peel away from the panels: the issue here is that the surface of the panel is not bonded to the foam core as well as the velcro is bonded to the surface, so sometimes the velcro and the surface peel away. Weaker velcro and/or weaker adhesive might reduce wear and tear on the panel from this effect. 

[Chris Jurney]

Our hunter panel / vinyl / velcro / contact cement yurts just survived year 3.  Velcro that has to be pulled directly off the surface to attach floors has started coming off (contact cement not holding), but the structural elements that have lateral stress are all still good.  On 7 yurts, only 1 structural seam has any peeling.

This year, we switched to 100% ratchet straps for tie down due to the inability to tie an effective trucker's hitch while exhausted at the end of setup.  Big win for reduction of setup time and loose ropes.

[Lawrence Wang]

There are a couple of places where the velcro is starting to peel away from the panels: the issue here is that the surface of the panel is not bonded to the foam core as well as the velcro is bonded to the surface, so sometimes the velcro and the surface peel away.

 

I wonder if small tacks or staples (through the velcro into the foam) would work to address this?

[Joshua Slocum]

I'd thought of something like that. I haven't tested it. If anyone does I'd be interested in knowing how it worked.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Lawrence Wang <l...@lw.io> wrote:

There are a couple of places where the velcro is starting to peel away from the panels: the issue here is that the surface of the panel is not bonded to the foam core as well as the velcro is bonded to the surface, so sometimes the velcro and the surface peel away.

 

I wonder if small tacks or staples (through the velcro into the foam) would work to address this?

--

[Steve Upstill]

I retrofitted my quad yurt with cordura and velcro, some places over bifi tape which didn't want to come off. I had reasonably bad problems with the velcro coming off the surface before it would release. That stuff is vicious! I wonder if there aren't different grades of Velcro. I want me some Post-It grade hook-and-loops.

Has anyone got any experience working from the bare poly-iso for attachment? That joint between the foil and the foam seems like a perennial issue; I would be happy to strip away the flaky foil and start from bare foam if there was a good way to do it.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:14 PM Joshua Slocum <jfsl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd thought of something like that. I haven't tested it. If anyone does I'd be interested in knowing how it worked.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Lawrence Wang <l...@lw.io> wrote:

There are a couple of places where the velcro is starting to peel away from the panels: the issue here is that the surface of the panel is not bonded to the foam core as well as the velcro is bonded to the surface, so sometimes the velcro and the surface peel away.

 

I wonder if small tacks or staples (through the velcro into the foam) would work to address this?

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[Chris Jurney]

We tried staples, but putting a staple into foam doesn't do much.  You get a little bit of lateral stabilization, but it doesn't do anything to prevent pulling directly away from the surface.

We solved the foil peeling problem by wrapping every edge of our panels with vinyl applyed with contact cement.  Also keeps water out of the foam.  Those seams are all super strong, none of come loose yet.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 6:14 AM, Steve Upstill <ups...@gmail.com> wrote:

I retrofitted my quad yurt with cordura and velcro, some places over bifi tape which didn't want to come off. I had reasonably bad problems with the velcro coming off the surface before it would release. That stuff is vicious! I wonder if there aren't different grades of Velcro. I want me some Post-It grade hook-and-loops.

Has anyone got any experience working from the bare poly-iso for attachment? That joint between the foil and the foam seems like a perennial issue; I would be happy to strip away the flaky foil and start from bare foam if there was a good way to do it.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:14 PM Joshua Slocum <jfsl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd thought of something like that. I haven't tested it. If anyone does I'd be interested in knowing how it worked.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Lawrence Wang <l...@lw.io> wrote:

There are a couple of places where the velcro is starting to peel away from the panels: the issue here is that the surface of the panel is not bonded to the foam core as well as the velcro is bonded to the surface, so sometimes the velcro and the surface peel away.

 

I wonder if small tacks or staples (through the velcro into the foam) would work to address this?

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