Airone Pinion Gear question

[Mike Peavey]

So we have an Airone, not mine fortunately, and it appears the pinion gear that engages the flywheel has fused itself to the crankshaft. My experience has been, all you need to do to remove the gear is depress the spring, remove the key and off it pops. It looks like this gear is almost all the way in towards the case and the slot for the key, lines up with the key, but it does not engage the key.

We've tried heat, lubricant and a variety of pullers to no avail. Also in looking at the parts book, they list the pinion gear and the transmission gear as one part, TAV 7, item #15, p/n M2561 bis/2560.

Questions are, #1 Any thoughts on removal, more heat etc. #2 worst case cut it off, though it is robust and since the two gears are under one part number, are they a matched pair and #3, what part does the spring loading action play, a shock absorber function?

Thanks,
Mike
Boston

[Jerome Kimberlin]

Either this is the 2nd Airone that I've heard this happen to or it is
the same one I worked on once and had the same trouble. I think someone
on our group has the one I worked on, however. Anyway, I didn't
struggle too hard to get the pinion gear off and just left it in place
since it wasn't necessary to actually remove it. But I tried everything
I could to get it off including an O/A torch while pulling with a big
puller and got no joy. In principle, heating it hot enough should cause
it to shrink a bit when it cools. Might have to heat and cool several
times. I hate to heat it, though, for fear of causing a problem with
the crankshaft.

The pinion and clutch basket come as one part and they are matched when
new. If you find a used pinion it will probably fit without any trouble.

The spring serves to counteract the forces set up during the running of
those gears. They are helical cut gears and tend to want to move away
from the flywheel. So the spring is needed to keep the dogs engaged in
the back of the flywheel.

JerryK

[Mac Dennis]

The worst pinion gears I've removed went through a several heating and cooling cycles before coming lose. The trick is not just heat but how fast you can heat the gear without heating the crank. So to start you need a very cold motor. Where I live winter temps can typically get to -20 below f and that helps a lot. Have a big freezer? Now with a really cold motor heat use oxy hot and fast then let cool and repeat but use a puller this time. Do stand clear as I have had the gear and puller fly a cross the garage once they let go.
Mac
Sent from my iPad

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[Mike Peavey]

Mac and Jerry, Thanks for the replies and for Jerry, I'd bet this is the bike you worked on, now owned by Bill Burke on the list. Bill had heard an odd clunking noise, so he pulled the flywheel and cover for a look, I stopped by at some point and looked at the pinion gear that appeared to have welded itself to the shaft. Now after reading your email, I think, since better minds than ours have had a look, we'll put it back together and be inclined to let that sleeping dog lie, Or, at least before we do something we'll regret, we'll put it back together and do a little more diagnostics on the noise. Standby...
Thanks,
Mike

[Jerome Kimberlin]

On 3/20/2016 7:08 AM, Mike Peavey wrote:
> Mac and Jerry, Thanks for the replies and for Jerry, I'd bet this is the bike you worked on, now owned by Bill Burke on the list. Bill had heard an odd clunking noise, so he pulled the flywheel and cover for a look, I stopped by at some point and looked at the pinion gear that appeared to have welded itself to the shaft. Now after reading your email, I think, since better minds than ours have had a look, we'll put it back together and be inclined to let that sleeping dog lie, Or, at least before we do something we'll regret, we'll put it back together and do a little more diagnostics on the noise.

Mike, I don't know if it is the same beast, of course. The one I
worked on was owned by John Goldman, then by Craig Boblett. When Craig
had it I did some work on it and found the welded pinion gear. After
reading Mac's reply I was thinking that his bike was the one I looked at.

I just wonder why this happens? Lack of oiling? There should be enough
clearance between the shaft and the gear and in principle, they move
together all the time with no real friction to heat the gear. Maybe the
spring is too weak? Does anyone have the specs for the spring?

JerryK

[Mike Peavey]

Jerry, I think it is the same bike, Bill says it had spent time in the Bay Area, prior to his buying it a number of years ago.
The odd think about the gear is, it sits proud of the keyway in the shaft, however the keyway in the gear lines up perfectly with the keyway in the shaft, which one assumes would negate the concept of the gear spinning on the shaft, in that I doubt it would then wind up back in perfect alignment. Also, I can’t be completely sure, but it appears the spring is completely compressed, since the gear sits very near the case.
By the way, since I am just putting an Airone back together, I have a pinion gear and spring on the bench, if there’s any measurements that I could make on the spring for you, let me know, though I’m guessing it has more to do with strength that you’re looking for.
Mike

[Andrew Nahum]

It is wonderful how long-lived the mechanical solutions are that Guzzi evolved. My 1931 Sport 15 had that spring load arrangement too. I deduced that it must be an engine shock absorber or 'torque eqaliser' because the sense of the drive force is that the gear slides partly out of mesh against its partner under load and then is returned by the spring into alignment. It only works because the gears are helical. 

If there was no shock absorber or torque smoothing function the gears could just be bolted up in line rigidly with no freedom for axial movement. There would be no reason to include a spring and provide room for axial gear movement

The question is, if, in this particular bike the axial movement is not happening, then presumably the shock absorbing does not occur either. Does this have a bad effect upstream on the crank driveshaft, or downstream through the primary drive and transmission? Is the bike perceptibly harsher? The peak driveline loads must be higher anyway than Guzzi intended.

Andrew in London

 and  #3, what part does the spring loading action play, a shock absorber function?

* * * 

The spring serves to counteract the forces set up during the running of those gears.  They are helical cut gears and tend to want to move away from the flywheel.  So the spring is needed to keep the dogs engaged in the back of the flywheel.

JerryK

[Patrick Hayes]

On 3/20/2016 3:27 PM, Andrew Nahum wrote:

> The question is, if, in this particular bike the axial movement is not
> happening, then presumably the shock absorbing does not occur either.
> Does this have a bad effect upstream on the crank driveshaft, or
> downstream through the primary drive and transmission? Is the bike
> perceptibly harsher? The peak driveline loads must be higher anyway than
> Guzzi intended.

With a little 250, the power thrust loading has to be kind of marginal.
But, you are correct, the "cush" function of the crank gear is there
for some reason and that reason is negated when the gear gets locked in
place. Power pulse impacts get transmitted to the chain, sprocket
teeth, and probably piston pin bushing and big end rollers. Not much,
but it is there. Adds up over time. The rear wheel has an integral
rubber cush drive to help absorb some of that pulsing.

Someone mentioned earlier that the crank gear and clutch gear are made
as matched sets. I think NOT. The crank gear is steel. The clutch
gear is spun cast iron I think. The clutch gear is intended as a weak
link sacrificial failure to protect the crank. I have known of several
circumstances where the dynamo gear has shattered and dropped bits into
the clutch basket gear. Big noise, big mess. The resolution is to just
buy another clutch basket gear and you're back in business. I have been
on two European Falcone tours where this precise failure occured. We
don't buy matched gears including the crank gear, we just buy a
replacement clutch basket gear. Overnight replacement and back on the road.

So, if someone wants to cut off this errant Airone gear you should be
able to just buy a one gear replacement and be back in service.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Michael Blumberg]

Andrew

I'm just noticing that you are in London.  

Do you by any chance know or know of Ian Ledger?  He was the Guzzi singles expert in the UK 20 - 35 years ago and was instrumental in assisting me 10 years ago in finding the Falcone Sport I ended up purchasing.  Ian had owned previously in the 70s and sold it to Mike Lacey, who I purchased it from about 25 years later in 2006 -- you may know Mike as well.  Mike was treasurer of the UK Guzzi club at that time.  Mike Lacey had a good many Guzzi singles and twins at the time, and I remember him telling me about riding one of his Gallettos to Italy and back several times. 

My wife and I had a very nice visit with Ian Ledger and his wife at their place back then, which was not too far from where my wife's father lived in Bristol at that time.  It was a great pleasure to meet him and spend a bit of time with him in his workshop.  He was a great source of advice when I first started looking for a Falcone, as I was clueless on how to identify an authentic Sport.   Luckily, his old bike was offered for sale by Mike not long thereafter.

Michael Blumberg

Vancouver BC

Michael

[Mike Peavey]

Patrick, I think it was I that asked the question about the pinion and clutch gear being a set, but it was more a question that a statement and it arose because in the parts manual, at least for the 1956 Airone, they show the two gears as one part in the illustration and also both as only one part number.   I’m guessing if you ask most of the usual suspects parts houses, for one or the other, they would indeed, as you suggest, have them individually. 

Mike 

Boston

[Jerome Kimberlin]

On 3/20/2016 7:44 AM, Mike Peavey wrote:
> Jerry, I think it is the same bike, Bill says it had spent time in the Bay Area, prior to his buying it a number of years ago.
> The odd think about the gear is, it sits proud of the keyway in the shaft, however the keyway in the gear lines up perfectly with the keyway in the shaft, which one assumes would negate the concept of the gear spinning on the shaft, in that I doubt it would then wind up back in perfect alignment. Also, I can’t be completely sure, but it appears the spring is completely compressed, since the gear sits very near the case.
> By the way, since I am just putting an Airone back together, I have a pinion gear and spring on the bench, if there’s any measurements that I could make on the spring for you, let me know, though I’m guessing it has more to do with strength that you’re looking for.

Mike,

Over time, the flywheel will come off and be put on the end of the
crankshaft for various reasons. If it isn't tightened up enough, it
could break the key and rotate on the crankshaft, scratching it to the
point where it no longer seats correctly. Then the crank needs to be
polished. When that happens, the flywheel will seat further in towards
the case just a little. Thus, the spring behind the gear is needed to
make sure the gear dogs are seated in the flywheel properly.

The helical gears are there because they don't rattle as much as
straight cut gears. No other function so far as I know. The racing
machines have straight cut gears. The idea that there is some
cushioning effect by having the gears slip against each other is simply
engineering rediculousness. When gear faces get out of alignment, more
stress is places on those teeth that are engaged. That isn't a good thing.

If the spring that holds the gear in position is weak, then it will
allow the helical gear to cog out of registration with the clutch basket
gear. This is not good as it will produce friction heat. If the spring
is not replaced, this heat will further deteriorate the spring until a
lot of friction heat is produced. Also when this happens, any foreign
matter in the oil can gall the crankshaft where the gear seats and the
combination of the heat and lack of lubrication can cause the
crankshaft and gear to fuse together.

I think Eric had the best idea of getting the gear to crank seal to
break. Put on a strong puller then heat up the gear while keeping the
crank cold as possible. It may take a whole bunch of tries to get it
off but it should come eventually. Interestingly enough, when the gear
does come off there isn't nearly as much damage to the gear or
crankshaft as one might expect.

I don't know how you could make measurements on the spring you have on
hand unless you have access to a spring tensiometer. You may not have
one but our Guzzi friend Joseph Joe just made an elegant one which is
dirt cheap and accurate. He may pop up here and reply. Some workshop
manuals have spring tension test requirements. I don't have an Airone
manual so I can't say what the spring ought to be or if the data is even
in it.

Cheers,

JerryK

[Andrew Nahum]

Hi Michael,

I have been in contact with Ian Ledger quite a few times over the years. He is a most charming guy and he found me quite a lot of parts for Airone and Guzzino. He also told me how to purge or de-grease the clutch on an Airone which is esssential information!

I have not ben in touch with him for a while and hope he is well.

Andrew

[Gordon de la Mare]

Andrew .. I was told by a a colleague in Somerset that Ian Ledger passed away early 2015.

Ledger, Ian

		Ledger, Ian Lt Col Ian Ledger   It is with great sadness that I inform the wider Army Aviation family of the sudden death of Lt Col Ian Ledger on the 6th January 2015.
		View on www.aachonourroll.com	Preview by Yahoo

I don't know what happened to the parts etc.

He had been running down his collection for quite some time.

Rgds

Gordon

---

From: Andrew Nahum <andrew...@gmail.com>
To: "guzzi-...@googlegroups.com" <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016, 1:28
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Airone Pinion Gear question

[andrew...@gmail.com]

Dear Gordon

Many thanks for the update and I am sorry to hear that. Many of the parts he found me came through his long term Italian contacts. I don't think he stocked a lot. 

I am not surprised to hear he was ex Army and an engineer to boot. He had that particular courtesy. 

Best regards

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[Michael Blumberg]

Gordon -

 

Thank you for that update.  That is very sad to hear about Ian --- a wonderful guy. 

 

I also received Ian’s detailed instructions on periodic de-greasing the Falcone clutch.

 

Michael

[Michael Blumberg]

Andrew & Gordon --

 

I recall as well Ian telling me that he was a friend of Stanley Woods.  When Stanley wound down his motorbike business (I think Ian said it was in the late 80s and it was in Belfast), he sold his remaining stock of parts to Ian, who traveled there with his trailer or van to pick them up.

 

So at least some of Ian’s parts came by way of Stanley Woods.

 

Additionally, I’ve got a couple of older UK classic motorcycle magazines with articles from the 80s / early 90s about Ian and his bikes.  The nicest one to me was his early Airone with the Velox cylinder head.

 

When/if I can find those I’ll scan them and send them along to everyone on the list.

 

Michael

[Guzzi Ian]

I know this is an older thread but here's a video of the pinion gear on my Airone. Is this how it should be?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNO57cuvCEQ

[Guzzi Ian]

[Paul Compton]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 19:16, 'Guzzi Ian' via Guzzi Singles
<guzzi-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> I know this is an older thread but here's a video of the pinion gear on my Airone. Is this how it should be?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNO57cuvCEQ

The pinion is driven from the flywheel via the face dogs whilst the
flywheel is driven by the shaft taper.

--
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)

[Patrick Hayes]

What you are displaying is the clearance between the pinion gear and its
locating keyway. That clearance never actually comes into play during
operation. The two face dogs mate much more closely with the relative
grooves on the interior face of the flywheel. Remove the pinion from
the bike and place it against the flywheel. Now rotate back and forth.
How much clearance there? There has to be some clearance because the
gear is designed to bounce in and out slightly along the crank axis to
absorb varying power pulses (really) from the drive line. Also, place
the crank up against the flywheel with the pinion removed but the keyway
reinserted. Now how much play can you detect? Likely not much.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

On 3/26/2019 12:16 PM, 'Guzzi Ian' via Guzzi Singles wrote:
> I know this is an older thread but here's a video of the pinion gear on
> my Airone. Is this how it should be?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNO57cuvCEQ
>
>
> I recall as well Ian telling me that he was a friend of Stanley
> Woods.  When Stanley wound down his motorbike business (I think Ian
> said it was in the late 80s and it was in Belfast), he sold his
> remaining stock of parts to Ian, who traveled there with his trailer
> or van to pick them up.
>
> So at least some of Ian’s parts came by way of Stanley Woods.
>
> Additionally, I’ve got a couple of older UK classic motorcycle
> magazines with articles from the 80s / early 90s about Ian and his
> bikes.  The nicest one to me was his early Airone with the Velox
> cylinder head.
>
> When/if I can find those I’ll scan them and send them along to
> everyone on the list.
>
> Michael
>

> *From:*guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
> [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>] *On Behalf Of
> *andrew...@gmail.com <javascript:>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 21, 2016 4:32 AM
> *To:* guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
> *Subject:* Re: [guzzi-singles] Airone Pinion Gear question

>
> Dear Gordon
>
> Many thanks for the update and I am sorry to hear that. Many of the
> parts he found me came through his long term Italian contacts. I
> don't think he stocked a lot.
>
> I am not surprised to hear he was ex Army and an engineer to boot.
> He had that particular courtesy.
>
> Best regards
>
> Andrew
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On 21 Mar 2016, at 09:09, 'Gordon de la Mare' via Guzzi Singles

> <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>> wrote:
>
> Andrew .. I was told by a a colleague in Somerset that Ian
> Ledger passed away early 2015.
>

> Ledger, Ian <http://www.aachonourroll.com/people/ledger-ian/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ledger, Ian <http://www.aachonourroll.com/people/ledger-ian/>

>
> Lt Col Ian Ledger   It is with great sadness that I inform the
> wider Army Aviation family of the sudden death of Lt Col Ian
> Ledger on the 6th January 2015.
>
>
>
>

> View on *www.aachonourroll.com*
> <http://www.aachonourroll.com/people/ledger-ian/>

>
>
>
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't know what happened to the parts etc.
>
> He had been running down his collection for quite some time.
>
> Rgds
>
> Gordon
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Andrew Nahum <andrew...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> *To:* "guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>"
> <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>
> *Sent:* Monday, 21 March 2016, 1:28
> *Subject:* Re: [guzzi-singles] Airone Pinion Gear question

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[Guzzi Ian]

Thanks Patrick,

Here's another video that shows the freeplay between the clutch and pinion gear.

 After rebuilding my engine there seems to be a bit of banging and clanging coming from this area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72fl9bjzZLw

> <mailto:guzzi-singles+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

[Patrick Hayes]

That looks normal.

Does this "...banging and clanging..." happen at idle/neutral? Only
under gear load?

Do you have good cush rubbers in the rear hub/sprocket?

Think for a moment about the relative rpm and rotation of the crank.
Because it involves compressions and explosions, the crankshaft is
always increasing/decreasing rate of rotation with each full cycle.
Never linear smooth like an electric motor.

So, Guzzi designed three features to absorb these constant changes in
rotation rpm and circular loading.

First, the flywheel mass tries to cancel and smooth everything.

Second, the rear hub cush rubbers help to absorb drive line rotation
changes while the rear wheel maintains a constant speed along the road.

Third, the crankshaft pinion gear has a helical tooth cut and is loosely
floating on the crankshaft. This allows for the gear to move slightly
in/out and clockwise/counterclockwise with each power stroke of the
crank and each gear shift within the transmission.

When I first bought my SuperAlce, the rear hub was assembled
incorrectly. It hammered like crazy with each engine pulse going down
the road. Correcting the assembly quieted that all down.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

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[Guzziian]

It's just happening at idle when in neutral, and it's not a constant.  It happens as the revs fluctuate a bit. It never did it before the rebuild but  I  remember the  pinion was on tight and had no movement when I disassembled it. Seems like it's doing what its supposed to and I  had never heard it before. 

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[Rick Yamane]

One thing I’ve noticed is that if you turn up the idle speed just a bit the noise goes away. As the RPM drops the change in inertia of the crank from combustion impulses becomes far more pronounced. Basically the engine is lugging at idle.

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