One more question about W'bal

[Peter Riegersperger]

Assuming that I’ve set CP correctly, and W’bal goes into negative on select hard efforts - should I increase W’ until W’bal levels out at 0? (And further correct upwards if I go negative again?)

The CP and W’ estimator gives me values that are too low.

I have set:

CP: 285 (best effort over 20“)

W’: 11.500

This gives me 121% W’ spent on one effort today, but the estimator would go even lower:

The estimator suggests:

CP: 277 (close)

W’: 10.000

Is there a way to „test“ W’, or should I level out to 0 until I no longer see any negative values?

thanks,

peter

pe...@lerouleurlent.net

~ Slow Since 2005 ~
http://lerouleurlent.net/

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[Ryan Switala]

To set accurately i think you need multiple tests to exhaustion at different durations between 3 and 15 minutes. At the very minimum a 3 min test to exhaustion in addition to the 20 min test. W' of 11.5k sounds low, probably not correct.

There is a thread on here if you search "setting w' "

[Peter Riegersperger]

Thanks, Ryan. I found this post: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/golden-cheetah-users/YZS3HFqL2q8/iGMjfMbQ3RIJ from Nathan and assuming that CP is correct (since I tested it rather recently) I’ll play with W’ to go around 0 when I hit the limit.

On 23.08.2015, at 21:06, Ryan Switala <ryans...@gmail.com> wrote:

To set accurately i think you need multiple tests to exhaustion at different durations between 3 and 15 minutes. At the very minimum a 3 min test to exhaustion in addition to the 20 min test. W' of 11.5k sounds low, probably not correct.

There is a thread on here if you search "setting w' "

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[Nathan Townsend]

On Monday, 24 August 2015 08:25:34 UTC+3, Peter Riegersperger wrote:

Thanks, Ryan. I found this post: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/golden-cheetah-users/YZS3HFqL2q8/iGMjfMbQ3RIJ from Nathan and assuming that CP is correct (since I tested it rather recently) I’ll play with W’ to go around 0 when I hit the limit.

As an update, I've been running the 12/7/3min protocol as validated by Karsten et al.  I'm not convinced now that it is best to do 3 max efforts within the session though.  Two is definitely achievable though with about 40min of recovery, but we're seeing slightly reduced power numbers in the 3min effort compared with efforts that are one off.  Maybe 30min isn't quite enough recovery between tests either.

On that basis, I now recommend testing over 2 days and then bolster the regression by adding in a 4th test effort.  So you would do something along these lines order does not matter:

day A: 10-11min -> 40min recovery -> 2-3min

day B: 14-15min -> 40min recovery -> 6-7min

Alternatively, if you periodically adopt a training regime in which you attempt to go for PBs during training, then be strategic and do efforts spread out over the above durations.

[Brad]

Hi Nathan,

You suggest testing 4 different max effort durations to calculate your CP but what CP model do you use that uses 4 points of data to calculate CP?  The 2 parameter CP model will only use 2 durations so it's no point testing 4 different durations correct?  But there seems to be a point since that's what you recommend so just wondering how you calculate CP from the 4 points of data

[Nathan Townsend]

On Saturday, 29 August 2015 10:59:51 UTC+3, Brad wrote:

Hi Nathan,

You suggest testing 4 different max effort durations to calculate your CP but what CP model do you use that uses 4 points of data to calculate CP?  The 2 parameter CP model will only use 2 durations so it's no point testing 4 different durations correct?  But there seems to be a point since that's what you recommend so just wondering how you calculate CP from the 4 points of data

See attached for a simple excel CP calculator :-)

It uses a solver macro, so you'll need to install that and enable macros. Or just run the solver manually. 

[Tony]

Nathan

I have installed the calculator, installed and enabled the solver macro but no calcs take place. Excel is "setting up a problem" but then goes no further. There are no error messages.

I am using 3,7 and 12min power data and am using a mac...

[Nathan Townsend]

I think excel VBA macros don't work on macs.

don't click the button but try to run the solver manually instead. 

Data menu -> solver -> window pops up -> enter target cell -> set to "min" -> enter cells to change.

[Tony]

Thanks. Some progress made. Solving manually, using the same process each time, the results are:

CP 216

CP 217

CP 2832188 !!!

[Ale Martinez]

El miércoles, 2 de septiembre de 2015, 8:28:34 (UTC-3), Tony escribió:

Thanks. Some progress made. Solving manually, using the same process each time, the results are:

CP 216

CP 217

CP 2832188 !!!

Since W' is not constrained to be positive the solver can find solutions with W'<0 and (very) high values of CP, you can rule-out them by adding additional constraints, also the non-linear solver is sensitive to initial conditions, so seeding the initial values for CP/W' to the ones found by other methods also could help.

[Brad]

Thankyou, I appreciate it

[Brad]

By the way, I have no idea what solver macro is

[Neil Pugh]

Hopefully you'll see this Nathan (or anyone) but when I try to solve manually I get error messages. Are the cell references correct for the manual resolution?