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XeLaTeX/biblatex -- anything missing?
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Peter Flynn
Nov 17, 2015, 3:35:25 PM11/17/15
to
I have slowly been moving production from pdflatex and BiBTeX to
XeLaTeX and biblatex, and so far it's been fine. Before I go any
further, I need to document what we're doing, so I'm looking for
the benefit of your collective knowledge:
Is there anything that can be done with pdflatex/BiBTeX that can't [yet]
be done with XeLaTeX and biblatex?
I *believe*, for example, that you cannot yet process Beamer slides with
XeLaTeX; and that apparently the range of bibliographic styles available
preconfigured in biblatex is still smaller than the range available for
BiBTeX.
Comments and suggestions would be valuable...
///Peter
XeLaTeX and biblatex, and so far it's been fine. Before I go any
further, I need to document what we're doing, so I'm looking for
the benefit of your collective knowledge:
Is there anything that can be done with pdflatex/BiBTeX that can't [yet]
be done with XeLaTeX and biblatex?
I *believe*, for example, that you cannot yet process Beamer slides with
XeLaTeX; and that apparently the range of bibliographic styles available
preconfigured in biblatex is still smaller than the range available for
BiBTeX.
Comments and suggestions would be valuable...
///Peter
Helmut Elbers
Nov 17, 2015, 5:23:24 PM11/17/15
to
Am 17.11.2015 um 21:35 schrieb Peter Flynn:
> I *believe*, for example, that you cannot yet process Beamer slides with
> XeLaTeX;
No problem here, XeLaTeX works fine with Beamer.
> I *believe*, for example, that you cannot yet process Beamer slides with
> XeLaTeX;
and that apparently the range of bibliographic styles available
> preconfigured in biblatex is still smaller than the range available for
> BiBTeX.
styles cover many cases and are better to configure than the old
bst-files. And many bst-files are unmaintained and so outdated that they
are not of much use today. I.E. old styles lack a support for internet
documents (URLs).
Peter Flynn
Nov 17, 2015, 5:49:56 PM11/17/15
to
On 17/11/15 22:23, Helmut Elbers wrote:
> Am 17.11.2015 um 21:35 schrieb Peter Flynn:
>
>> I *believe*, for example, that you cannot yet process Beamer slides
>> with XeLaTeX;
>
> No problem here, XeLaTeX works fine with Beamer.
I must have been using a much older system when I tested that, thanks.
> Am 17.11.2015 um 21:35 schrieb Peter Flynn:
>
>> I *believe*, for example, that you cannot yet process Beamer slides
>> with XeLaTeX;
>
> No problem here, XeLaTeX works fine with Beamer.
>> and that apparently the range of bibliographic styles available
>> preconfigured in biblatex is still smaller than the range available
>> for BiBTeX.
>
> Yes, but you don't need them that much because the biblatex standard
> styles cover many cases
especially in the Humanities.
> and are better to configure than the old bst-files.
specific named style and is not permitted to modify it.
> And many bst-files are unmaintained and so outdated that they are not
> of much use today. I.E. old styles lack a support for internet
> documents (URLs).
///Peter
Jeffrey Goldberg
Nov 17, 2015, 10:58:16 PM11/17/15
to
On 15-11-17 2:35 PM, Peter Flynn wrote:
> I have slowly been moving production from pdflatex and BiBTeX to
> XeLaTeX and biblatex, and so far it's been fine. Before I go any
> further, I need to document what we're doing, so I'm looking for
> the benefit of your collective knowledge:
>
> Is there anything that can be done with pdflatex/BiBTeX that can't [yet]
> be done with XeLaTeX and biblatex?
>
> I *believe*, for example, that you cannot yet process Beamer slides with
> XeLaTeX;
I have had no problems with that combination.
> I have slowly been moving production from pdflatex and BiBTeX to
> XeLaTeX and biblatex, and so far it's been fine. Before I go any
> further, I need to document what we're doing, so I'm looking for
> the benefit of your collective knowledge:
>
> Is there anything that can be done with pdflatex/BiBTeX that can't [yet]
> be done with XeLaTeX and biblatex?
>
> I *believe*, for example, that you cannot yet process Beamer slides with
> XeLaTeX;
> and that apparently the range of bibliographic styles available
> preconfigured in biblatex is still smaller than the range available for
> BiBTeX.
formatting. biblatex-mla is absolutely brilliant at what it does, but it
appears that the author only created the particular types that he
needed; so it is incomplete.
Do not ask why anyone would choose to use MLA format unless you wish to
hear a prolonged tale of woe and nasty comments directed at American
school teachers.
Cheers,
-j
--
Jeffrey Goldberg http://goldmark.org/jeff/
I rarely read HTML or poorly quoting posts
Reply-To address is valid
Steve Nickolas
Nov 18, 2015, 12:21:55 AM11/18/15
to
On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote:
> Do not ask why anyone would choose to use MLA format unless you wish to
> hear a prolonged tale of woe and nasty comments directed at American
> school teachers.
Yeah, I think it's...pretty much exclusively used by high school teachers
> Do not ask why anyone would choose to use MLA format unless you wish to
> hear a prolonged tale of woe and nasty comments directed at American
> school teachers.
in the US, right?
-uso.
Ulrike Fischer
Nov 18, 2015, 7:51:54 AM11/18/15
to
Am Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:49:48 +0000 schrieb Peter Flynn:
>>> and that apparently the range of bibliographic styles available
>>> preconfigured in biblatex is still smaller than the range available
>>> for BiBTeX.
>> Yes, but you don't need them that much because the biblatex standard
>> styles cover many cases
> Yes, I personally have my needs covered, but I have users who do not,
> especially in the Humanities.
You can't count styles in biblatex like you can count bst-file:
>>> and that apparently the range of bibliographic styles available
>>> preconfigured in biblatex is still smaller than the range available
>>> for BiBTeX.
>> Yes, but you don't need them that much because the biblatex standard
>> styles cover many cases
> Yes, I personally have my needs covered, but I have users who do not,
> especially in the Humanities.
Every document can easily change an existing style a bit, and
actually every document I have seen did it: use some different set
of options, changed a font, a comma to a semikolon, patched a driver
etc.
>> and are better to configure than the old bst-files.
> Yes, but in most cases for publication a user is required to use a
> specific named style and is not permitted to modify it.
you are out of luck. If it only asks that the output looks like the
output of the bst then you will imho always be able to recreate it
with biblatex.
--
Ulrike Fischer
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/
jon
Nov 19, 2015, 12:40:57 AM11/19/15
to
'right' department (e.g., english). i assume this is also true in american
schools since the 'modern language association' is in fact the 'modern
language association of america' and they are responsible for the evil guide(lines) ... which i believe result from the confluence of two
factors:
1. it is (really!) hard to standardize citation practices across the
over 500 years of book publishing history (this affects all styles);
2. the guidelines were likely composed by people who see little
difference in potential between writing with a typewriter and
writing with a computer. thus many requirements are not easy to
implement in a programmatic way (this problem affects many disciplines
in the humanities.)
of course, mla imposes extremely absurd and draconian typographical
conventions on students as well, such as (if memory serves) how far from
the top of the page the header must be, not to mention everyone's
favourite line spacing regimen, etc.
cheers,
jon.
Tapani Simojoki
Nov 20, 2015, 11:42:00 AM11/20/15
to
On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 20:35:25 UTC, peter wrote:
> I have slowly been moving production from pdflatex and BiBTeX to
> XeLaTeX and biblatex, and so far it's been fine. Before I go any
> further, I need to document what we're doing, so I'm looking for
> the benefit of your collective knowledge:
>
> Is there anything that can be done with pdflatex/BiBTeX that can't [yet]
> be done with XeLaTeX and biblatex?
>
The implementation of microtype package is very limited in xelatex at the moment.
> I have slowly been moving production from pdflatex and BiBTeX to
> XeLaTeX and biblatex, and so far it's been fine. Before I go any
> further, I need to document what we're doing, so I'm looking for
> the benefit of your collective knowledge:
>
> Is there anything that can be done with pdflatex/BiBTeX that can't [yet]
> be done with XeLaTeX and biblatex?
>
Peter Flynn
Nov 21, 2015, 2:11:45 PM11/21/15
to
On 18/11/15 12:51, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
[...]
Harvard, IEEE, etc. A few do indeed provide nasty .bst kludges of their
own but that's a small problem.
Users just expect a named style to work out of the box, which in
biblatex they all do, as far as I know. Most of them don't want to
modify it, and don't want to learn how.
Present company excepted, of course...
///Peter
[...]
> If a journal requires that a bst-style (and so bibtex) is used, then
> you are out of luck. If it only asks that the output looks like the
> output of the bst then you will imho always be able to recreate it
> with biblatex.
Journals usually only require a named style like Vancouver, MLA,
> you are out of luck. If it only asks that the output looks like the
> output of the bst then you will imho always be able to recreate it
> with biblatex.
Harvard, IEEE, etc. A few do indeed provide nasty .bst kludges of their
own but that's a small problem.
Users just expect a named style to work out of the box, which in
biblatex they all do, as far as I know. Most of them don't want to
modify it, and don't want to learn how.
Present company excepted, of course...
///Peter
Peter Flynn
Nov 21, 2015, 2:27:23 PM11/21/15
to
On 18/11/15 03:58, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote:
[...]
> Do not ask why anyone would choose to use MLA format unless you wish
> to hear a prolonged tale of woe and nasty comments directed at
> American school teachers.
It is an article of faith with many people in the Humanities that to be
well-dressed you need to produce MLA-format bibliographies, regardless
of how foolish the requirements look to the outside world.
On 19/11/15 05:40, jon wrote:
> of course, mla imposes extremely absurd and draconian typographical
> conventions on students as well, such as (if memory serves) how far
> from the top of the page the header must be, not to mention
> everyone's favourite line spacing regimen, etc.
That applies if you need to produce a whole paper to MLA format.
Mercifully, I only have to deal with people whose requirements are for
an MLA-format bibliography.
///Peter
[...]
> The one I've run across is with MLA (Modern Language Association
> [US]) formatting. biblatex-mla is absolutely brilliant at what it
> does, but it appears that the author only created the particular
> types that he needed; so it is incomplete.
Ah. Thanks you -- useful information.
> [US]) formatting. biblatex-mla is absolutely brilliant at what it
> does, but it appears that the author only created the particular
> types that he needed; so it is incomplete.
> Do not ask why anyone would choose to use MLA format unless you wish
> to hear a prolonged tale of woe and nasty comments directed at
> American school teachers.
well-dressed you need to produce MLA-format bibliographies, regardless
of how foolish the requirements look to the outside world.
On 19/11/15 05:40, jon wrote:
> of course, mla imposes extremely absurd and draconian typographical
> conventions on students as well, such as (if memory serves) how far
> from the top of the page the header must be, not to mention
> everyone's favourite line spacing regimen, etc.
Mercifully, I only have to deal with people whose requirements are for
an MLA-format bibliography.
///Peter
Peter Flynn
Nov 21, 2015, 2:27:59 PM11/21/15
to
///Peter
Ulrike Fischer
Nov 21, 2015, 5:06:48 PM11/21/15
to
Am Sat, 21 Nov 2015 19:11:37 +0000 schrieb Peter Flynn:
> Users just expect a named style to work out of the box, which in
> biblatex they all do, as far as I know. Most of them don't want to
> modify it,
They all want to modify it. The number of questions about "how do I
> Users just expect a named style to work out of the box, which in
> biblatex they all do, as far as I know. Most of them don't want to
> modify it,
change this comma to a semicolon and print the title in small caps"
is hilarious. Every small institute seems to want a special style.
> and don't want to learn how.
Jeffrey Goldberg
Nov 24, 2015, 11:43:28 PM11/24/15
to
document, not just the bibliography) is my daughter in a US high school
(perhaps similar to a "comprehensive") is faced with this requirement
regularly. But presumably those school teachers learn this at university.
There is one particular paper (done over the course of more than a year)
for which they were told to follow MLA formatting to the letter. This is
harder to achieve than you might imagine because specific guidelines the
kids were pointed to have samples that contradict the stated rules.
It also turned out that the teacher was lying when saying that it must
follow the MLA format. They have their own "in their heads" format that
they don't tell you up front (or provide samples for) that they want it
to comply with that you are only told about in the later stages of
submitting drafts.
So the cls that I was nicely building up for adhering to "MLA to the
letter" suddenly had me throwing in a bunch of ad hoc "for this teacher"
changes one night, so they aren't nicely compartmentalized. (Thus making
this class not close to ready for CTAN).
For example the paper title on the first full text page must be one inch
from the top of the paper, but the title "Abstract" on the preceding
page must be two inches from the top edge of the paper. The title page
and table of contents pages had their own dimensions.
Of course all this was nothing compared to what my daughter had to go
through. The topic that had been approved in November 2014 actually
violated the rules (it included a book that that was part of regular
course work) and she was only told about this in September 2015.
The good news with that is that as "Crime and Punishment" is no longer
part of her topic (Now something like "Necessity of Faith in
\textit{Life of Pi}" instead of a contrast between the two) is that I
don't have to use a typeface that both satisfies the the teacher and
does Cyrillic.
Peter Flynn
Dec 24, 2015, 7:25:44 AM12/24/15
to
Before I start digging, does anyone know which typeface packages have a
.sty file which automatically detects XeLaTeX and sets up the OTF/TTF
fonts, and otherwise sets up with the AFM/VF/PFB font files for pdflatex?
I'm starting some local documentation about using XeLaTeX and I'd like
to list those typefaces which can be set up simply with \usepackage
rather than having to find the OTF/TTF font files and specify
\setmainfont etc manually.
///Peter
.sty file which automatically detects XeLaTeX and sets up the OTF/TTF
fonts, and otherwise sets up with the AFM/VF/PFB font files for pdflatex?
I'm starting some local documentation about using XeLaTeX and I'd like
to list those typefaces which can be set up simply with \usepackage
rather than having to find the OTF/TTF font files and specify
\setmainfont etc manually.
///Peter
Herbert Voss
Dec 25, 2015, 10:23:28 AM12/25/15
to
accanthis,
Alegreya,
AlegreyaSans,
AnonymousPro,
cabin,
caladea,
carlito,
cinzel,
ClearSans,
ebgaramond,
FiraMono,
FiraSans,
fontawesome,
gillius,
gillius2,
imfellEnglish,
libertine,
librebaskerville,
librecaslon,
LobsterTwo,
merriweather,
mintspirit,
mintspirit2,
PlayfairDisplay,
quattrocento,
raleway,
roboto,
sourcecodepro,
sourcesanspro,
sourceserifpro, and
universalis.
Herbert
Peter Flynn
Dec 25, 2015, 11:01:28 AM12/25/15
to
On 25/12/15 15:23, Herbert Voss wrote:
> Am 24.12.2015 um 13:25 schrieb Peter Flynn:
>> Before I start digging, does anyone know which typeface packages have a
>> .sty file which automatically detects XeLaTeX and sets up the OTF/TTF
>> fonts, and otherwise sets up with the AFM/VF/PFB font files for pdflatex?
>>
>> I'm starting some local documentation about using XeLaTeX and I'd like
>> to list those typefaces which can be set up simply with \usepackage
>> rather than having to find the OTF/TTF font files and specify
>> \setmainfont etc manually.
>
> with an up-to-date TeXLive:
[snip]
> Am 24.12.2015 um 13:25 schrieb Peter Flynn:
>> Before I start digging, does anyone know which typeface packages have a
>> .sty file which automatically detects XeLaTeX and sets up the OTF/TTF
>> fonts, and otherwise sets up with the AFM/VF/PFB font files for pdflatex?
>>
>> I'm starting some local documentation about using XeLaTeX and I'd like
>> to list those typefaces which can be set up simply with \usepackage
>> rather than having to find the OTF/TTF font files and specify
>> \setmainfont etc manually.
>
> with an up-to-date TeXLive:
Thank you very much!
P
Arash Esbati
Dec 26, 2015, 8:53:46 AM12/26/15
to
Herbert Voss <Herber...@alumni.tu-berlin.de> writes:
> Am 24.12.2015 um 13:25 schrieb Peter Flynn:
>> Before I start digging, does anyone know which typeface packages have a
>> .sty file which automatically detects XeLaTeX and sets up the OTF/TTF
>> fonts, and otherwise sets up with the AFM/VF/PFB font files for pdflatex?
>>
>> I'm starting some local documentation about using XeLaTeX and I'd like
>> to list those typefaces which can be set up simply with \usepackage
>> rather than having to find the OTF/TTF font files and specify
>> \setmainfont etc manually.
>
> with an up-to-date TeXLive:
>
> AnonymousPro,
> Am 24.12.2015 um 13:25 schrieb Peter Flynn:
>> Before I start digging, does anyone know which typeface packages have a
>> .sty file which automatically detects XeLaTeX and sets up the OTF/TTF
>> fonts, and otherwise sets up with the AFM/VF/PFB font files for pdflatex?
>>
>> I'm starting some local documentation about using XeLaTeX and I'd like
>> to list those typefaces which can be set up simply with \usepackage
>> rather than having to find the OTF/TTF font files and specify
>> \setmainfont etc manually.
>
> with an up-to-date TeXLive:
>
`AnonymousPro.sty' does not make any provision to detect XeLaTeX and set
up the TTF fonts automatically. It relies on user to load
`fontspec.sty' and use `\setmonofont'.
Best, Arash
Herbert Voss
Dec 26, 2015, 1:44:35 PM12/26/15
to
be extended to load the font for any engine.
Herbert
Arash Esbati
Dec 28, 2015, 7:27:33 AM12/28/15
to
wanted to give users as much control as possible. And it turned out
that setting
\setmonofont{Anonymous Pro}
does not work reliable with XeTeX 3.14159265-2.6-0.99991 anyway (before
TL2015).
Best, Arash
Herbert Voss
Dec 28, 2015, 2:37:24 PM12/28/15
to
the user that he/she creates a config file that those directories
are searched by fontconfig, too.
Herbert
Peter Flynn
Dec 28, 2015, 7:42:02 PM12/28/15
to
On 28/12/15 19:37, Herbert Voss wrote:
[...]
Maybe they changed that part of the config.
///Peter
[...]
> Sure, XeTeX doesn't search the TeX fonts directory.
Mine seems to OK...texlive-full default from Ubuntu 15.10 repos.
Maybe they changed that part of the config.
///Peter
Herbert Voss
Dec 29, 2015, 3:55:43 AM12/29/15
to
09-texlive.conf
in /etc/fonts/fonts.d then everythning is fine.
Herbert
Arash Esbati
Dec 29, 2015, 5:54:53 AM12/29/15
to
[...]
.ttf files. You can read the discussion here (in German):
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/de.comp.text.tex/Om6xIJRxUrc/9bS0qo1IwWwJ
Best, Arash
>> I'm not sure. Keeping the package lean was a deliberate choice; I
>> wanted to give users as much control as possible. And it turned out
>> that setting
>>
>> \setmonofont{Anonymous Pro}
>>
>> does not work reliable with XeTeX 3.14159265-2.6-0.99991 anyway (before
>> TL2015).
>
> Sure, XeTeX doesn't search the TeX fonts directory. It is left to
> the user that he/she creates a config file that those directories
> are searched by fontconfig, too.
It was more an issue that XeTeX preferred to load the .pfb instead of
>> wanted to give users as much control as possible. And it turned out
>> that setting
>>
>> \setmonofont{Anonymous Pro}
>>
>> does not work reliable with XeTeX 3.14159265-2.6-0.99991 anyway (before
>> TL2015).
>
> Sure, XeTeX doesn't search the TeX fonts directory. It is left to
> the user that he/she creates a config file that those directories
> are searched by fontconfig, too.
.ttf files. You can read the discussion here (in German):
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/de.comp.text.tex/Om6xIJRxUrc/9bS0qo1IwWwJ
Best, Arash
Herbert Voss
Dec 29, 2015, 7:19:39 AM12/29/15
to
if you have two versions of a font, the the first one which is found
will be used. Using the extension of the font file always solves the
problem.
Herbert
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