IBC airlocks

[Mike Lachelt]

Hi all,

I'm going to do primary and secondary fermentation in IBC's and wonder about airlocks.  For primary fermentation, I've heard of a "blow-off tube" running from the top of the IBC into a "blow-off bucket" next to the IBC.  I suppose this allows the foam produced during the initial vigorous stage of fermentation to exit.  Can anyone explain this process in more detail?  What do I put in the blow-off bucket, for instance?  And how do I create an airtight seal in the top of the IBC that fits the blow-off tube?  

My other question concerns secondary fermentation.  I plan to pump the cider from one IBC into another.  Since we are talking about 1040 liter containers here, I assume that the airlocks I use on my carboys are not large enough, since there will be a lot more CO2 produced.  Is it possible to purchase appropriately sized airlocks somewhere?  If not, what are the alternatives?  And again, how do I create an airtight seal at the top of the IBC, to fit my airlock?  

I'd really appreciate your help!  Thanks in advance,

Mike

              

[Andrew Lea]

On 28/08/2014 02:39, Mike Lachelt wrote:

>
> My other question concerns secondary fermentation. I plan to pump the
> cider from one IBC into another.

It sounds as if you plan to rack your cider halfway through the
fermentation. I wonder why you'd do that? In most cases it is quite
satisfactory to set up the cider fermentation in one vessel and not rack
it again until it gets to SG < 1.005.

There is no secondary yeast fermentation when you make cider or wine.
All apple sugars are full fermentable unlike those in wort. You don't
generally rack fermenting cider until it's finished, any more than you
would rack wine half way through. This isn't beer.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
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[Matt Toomey]

Mike - in the inner part of my IBC cap, I put a 2" MPT x 1" FPT reducer with a 1" hose barb into a bucket with water. 

Re fermentation, I follow Andrew's notes, and have heard it suggested here that once you're storing the cider, you can actually just cap it tightly in the tank - no airlock.

[Rich Anderson]

On a IBC you can simply put the lid on lightly during fermentation in lieu of an airlock and tighten it up as fermentation subsides. During fermentation there is adequate CO2 to protect the juice. Some IBC’s have a vent on the lid which can be used as a vent.

 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Andrew wrote:

It sounds as if you plan to rack your cider halfway through the
fermentation. I wonder why you'd do that? In most cases it is quite
satisfactory to set up the cider fermentation in one vessel and not rack
it again until it gets to SG < 1.005. 

Unless you want to reduce the fermentation speed and eventually retain some residual sweetness in your cider.

In which case it makes sense to rack early.

For my part I usually do a first racking when SG is somewhere between 1.020 and 1.035

Claude

 

[Mike Lachelt]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks so much for your reply!  While I'm confident that you are correct, your suggestion to keep the cider fermenting in one vessel until SG < 1.005 is contrary to the books I've read about making cider.  (Drew Beechum's "The Everything Hard Cider" for one example, argues that it is important to rack from one vessel to another in order to avoid autolysis.  Other books seem to presuppose that racking from one container to another is crucial to the process without clearly explaining why.  

I wonder if I understand you correctly:  You are not suggesting that I should not rack from one IBC to another, just that I should not do so before the must reaches SG < 1.005.  Is this right?  Is there no need to worry about the effects of autolysis?  

Thanks so much!

Mike

[Mike Lachelt]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your reply!  Do you remove the reducer and hose when it stops foaming and replace it with a solid cap, until 1.005 SG or around there, then rack it to a second IBC or other vessel?  Can I ask why there seems to be no need for an airlock when it comes to fermenting and then storing/maturing in an IBC? 

Thanks!  

Mike            

[Andrew Lea]

I think it's quite simple. You don't rack until the fermentation is finished. And it isn't finished until SG is < 1.005. Autolysis is only a concern if the finished cider stays on dead yeast for weeks or months. Personally I think the perceived danger from autolysis is much overstated. I have often not racked ciders that started in October until the following July or August and there has been no problem. However for safety's sake it's probably better to rack sooner than that. But then my fermentations are with wild yeasts and no nutrients which may make a difference. 

The only occasion when you might rack at an intermediate value far above SG 1.005 is as Claude describes, that is when you are trying to arrest an already slow and low nutrient fermentation by repeated racking to encourage it to stick with residual sweetness. However, that is a technique for advanced cidermaking. From your posts it sounds as if you've never made cider before, in which case I suggest doing the normal 21st century thing and fermenting to dryness before you rack. Think white wine not beer. 

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

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[Dick Dunn]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:56:48PM -0700, Mike Lachelt wrote:
...
>...your suggestion to keep the cider fermenting in one vessel until SG < 1.005

> is contrary to the books I've read about making cider. (Drew Beechum's
> "The Everything Hard Cider" for one example, argues that it is important to

> rack from one vessel to another in order to avoid* autolysis*...

I hate to have to say it, but Beechum's book is full of misunderstandings
and errors. Beechum is a beer guy.

>...Other books

> seem to presuppose that racking from one container to another is crucial to
> the process without clearly explaining why.

What other books have you looked at? I note that Claude describes both
early and late first racking, and discusses the reasons you might do one or
the other. Both Watson and Proulx & Nichols describe a first racking after
fermentation is essentially done. (And need I point out that Andrew's book
says the same as what he just wrote here?) 1.005 is a number I've seen and
heard often enough.

The more you rack, the more you risk contamination: early on, the alcohol
is low and sugars are still high--a good culture medium! Next, the more
you rack, the more you have to deal with topping up or excluding air somehow.
Also, if you rack while fermentation is active, you'll have a lot of solids
in suspension or moving around, so they'll get carried over into the new
vessel.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Matt Toomey]

Once the fermentation is basically done you can just cap it off because the CO2 released at that point probably won't overwhelm the IBC's ability to take pressure. Plus it defends against air. You can just burp it if you see too much bloat in the tank by cracking the cap a bit, then re tightening.

[Dick Dunn]

Yes, you can just cap the IBC once you're not producing much more CO2, or
as you say, burp it.

But no, the CO2 doesn't defend against air. It's a matter of how permeable
to O2 the walls of the IBC are. If they're permeable, oxygen will get in,
quite irrespective of the internal pressure or amount of CO2.

This is a point that catches people repeatedly because it's somewhat
counter-intuitive. You have to consider each gas separately. If the wall
of a container is permeable to a gas, and there's a difference in partial
pressure of that gas from one side to the other, the gas will move through
the wall until the partial pressures equalize. This isn't affected by
other gases or differences in overall pressure.

You have two defenses against this: permeability and time. For a given
wall material, thicker is better because it's less permeable. And some
materials are a lot less permeable than others. Plus the less time your
cider spends in a permeable container, the less damage. Oh, and the third
of the two defenses (!:-) is that larger containers fare better: the
transfer of O2 depends on surface area of the container wall. Larger
containers have a lower ratio of surface area to volume.

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 08:12:25PM -0700, Matt Toomey wrote:
> Once the fermentation is basically done you can just cap it off because the CO2 released at that point probably won't overwhelm the IBC's ability to take pressure. Plus it defends against air. You can just burp it if you see too much bloat in the tank by cracking the cap a bit, then re tightening.
>

...

[Mike Lachelt]

Thanks Matt,

Are you suggesting, then, that there is really no reason to rack at all?  Once the fermentation is done, you just cap it off and burp it when necessary.  Same tank all the way through?  Then to the bottle or to a bright tank or keg for forced carbonation?  

I truly appreciate your advice!  

Mike

[Matt Toomey]

No I would follow the general guideline and rack sometime around 1.005. But while getting there you can just keep it capped. I have had airlocks that let in air, allowing film yeast to develop. I try to avoid them. 

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[Aaron Schwartz]

I follow a method that is very similar to Claude's: I rack after a few weeks of vigorous fermentation simply to slow the rate of fermentation down. It's true that racking might increase the risk of contamination but I've had very little problems as long as I stick to meticulous and common sense sanitation practices. Claude's book, 'The New Cider Maker's Handbook' is a great book for beginner cidermakers and has been invaluable in helping me understand and make decisions to get to a final product I really like.

Thanks, aaron

[Mike Lachelt]

So, the cap replaces the blow off tube shortly after it stops foaming, loosely at first, and then gets tightened and burped until 1.005, at which point you rack.  Is that right?  I think I'm getting this!  

Mike      

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 9:34:42 AM UTC-7, Matt Toomey wrote:

No I would follow the general guideline and rack sometime around 1.005. But while getting there you can just keep it capped. I have had airlocks that let in air, allowing film yeast to develop. I try to avoid them. 

On Sunday, August 31, 2014, Mike Lachelt wrote:

Thanks Matt,

Are you suggesting, then, that there is really no reason to rack at all?  Once the fermentation is done, you just cap it off and burp it when necessary.  Same tank all the way through?  Then to the bottle or to a bright tank or keg for forced carbonation?  

I truly appreciate your advice!  

Mike

        

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 8:12:25 PM UTC-7, Matt Toomey wrote:

Once the fermentation is basically done you can just cap it off because the CO2 released at that point probably won't overwhelm the IBC's ability to take pressure. Plus it defends against air. You can just burp it if you see too much bloat in the tank by cracking the cap a bit, then re tightening.

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[Mike Lachelt]

Dick, 

That's very interesting.  As you have explained it, it looks like given time O2 will make its way through the walls of the IBC.  While C02 will not protect against that sort of intrusion, won't it protect the cider from the O2 that's inside the tank, as a buffer between them?  Or does the CO2 only protect the cider in the space it occupies at the top of the tank, leaving the remainder vulnerable to the O2 that permeates elsewhere?

Mike

[Mike Lachelt]

Thank you Claude!  I learned a lot from your book, and I'm (obviously) still learning...

Much appreciated,

Mike

On Thursday, August 28, 2014 10:39:35 AM UTC-7, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

[Dick Dunn]

Yes, given time (and permeability) some O2 will get through the walls.

I don't understand what you're asking about CO2 being a buffer or
protection against the O2 in the tank. If you're thinking of a "layer"
effect, no, not really once the fermentation quiets down, because the gases
will mix over time. It's just a win because you've got mostly CO2 and very
little O2. During early fermentation the generated CO2 is pushing gas out
of the headspace--air (including O2) and earlier-generated CO2 as well. So
at this stage of fermentation the CO2 concentration in the headspace is
going up and the O2 concentration is going way down. Even with some O2
coming through the walls, it's mixing in and getting pushed out the
airlock. Eventually fermentation slows enough to where the O2 will slowly
start to rise.

BUT there's really a lot of "don't worry about it" in this, as long as
you're not trying to keep the cider in an IBC for many months after
fermentation is done.

On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 09:43:53AM -0700, Mike Lachelt wrote:
> Dick,
>
> That's very interesting. As you have explained it, it looks like given
> time O2 will make its way through the walls of the IBC. While C02 will not

> protect against *that *sort of intrusion*, *won't it protect the cider from

> the O2 that's inside the tank, as a buffer between them? Or does the CO2
> only protect the cider in the space it occupies at the top of the tank,
> leaving the remainder vulnerable to the O2 that permeates elsewhere?
>
> Mike
>
> On Saturday, August 30, 2014 9:56:27 PM UTC-7, Dick wrote:
> >
> > Yes, you can just cap the IBC once you're not producing much more CO2, or
> > as you say, burp it.
> >
> > But no, the CO2 doesn't defend against air. It's a matter of how
> > permeable
> > to O2 the walls of the IBC are. If they're permeable, oxygen will get in,
> > quite irrespective of the internal pressure or amount of CO2.

...snip...

[Dick Dunn]

I'll toss in one idea on this:

On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 09:13:34AM -0700, Mike Lachelt wrote:
> Thanks Matt,
>
> Are you suggesting, then, that there is really no reason to rack at all?
> Once the fermentation is done, you just cap it off and burp it when
> necessary. Same tank all the way through? Then to the bottle or to a
> bright tank or keg for forced carbonation?

You will likely need two rackings (possibly more if Pomona scowls at you).
When you have a lot of lees, the cider may fall mostly clear above them,
but you'll pull some lees when you rack. So the first racking should leave
the gross lees behind and give you a cider that's fairly clear, but not
bright. The second racking--which could be into a bright tank or kegs--
should give you a cider clear enough to bottle.

[sdc...@gmail.com]

Hi All,

Hope someone is still around as this thread is old. 

I'm finding that my IBCs are not airtight, as in I fill them to pressure with CO2 and then by the morning it has leaked and there is no pressure. I was hoping to store cider in them with CO2, but seems that there will end up being mixing with air.

Any idea if these totes are meant to be airtight and if the leaking may be the permeability of the tote walls mentioned here?

Or if you've all found the same issue, does the bit of air seem to affect the cider? Don't want to wind up with a tote of vinegar! :-/

Much appreciation in advance.

Spencer

[Ray Blockley]

Hi Spencer,

Can't help much I'm afraid as I don't store in IBC's - but considering
some of the nasty chemicals stored and shipped in IBC's for industrial
no-cider purposes, I'd assume they have to be (or should be?)
airtight. Have you checked all the seals? Have you tried using some
form of vegetable-based & safe grease to lubricate the seal(s)? If you
are losing all pressure in a few hours ie overnight) I do not think
that gas permeability of the walls is the culprit! :-)

Sorry I can't help any more. Good luck.

Ray

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[Andrew Lea]

On 05/08/2015 02:58, sdc...@gmail.com wrote:

> I'm finding that my IBCs are not airtight, as in I fill them to pressure
> with CO2 and then by the morning it has leaked and there is no pressure.

You need to think through the physics of this. If the cider is not
already saturated with CO2 (i.e. residue from fermentation), any CO2 you
add into the headspace will just dissolve in the liquid. This takes time
eg overnight. You would need to be well over saturation in the cider
before the added CO2 will result in a true positive pressure in the
headspace. This may be the situation you're in.

I don't think most people try to pressurise cider stored in IBC's. At
best they just try to sweep out air from the headspace; some people do
this weekly. IBC's are not generally intended to be pressure vessels
(certainly not the plastic sort, though I have seen some steel ones in
the US which are so purposed).

[greg l.]

There isn't any point pressurising with co2 because it won't stop oxygen permeating into the IBC anyway due to the way gases behave.

Greg

[Llanblethian Orchards - Alex]

I tried putting some CO2 on the headspace of my IBC but it did'nt stop film yeast at all to be honest. In the end I copied someone elses setup and got an IBC sized bag in box  and pumped the finished cider through a course filter into that, worked an absolute charm. Got them from German from some company called AUER.

(piccy shows IBC with head cut off and bag fitted. Filling valve is at the bottom, a new hole cut in the IBC for it)

[Thomas Fehige]

Interesting concept. They have an English website here, scroll down to find the liners and bits and pieces.

Cheers -- Thomas

[Andrew Lea]

On 06/08/2015 09:11, Thomas Fehige wrote:

> Interesting concept. They have an English website here,

> <http://www.auer-packaging.co.uk/en/bag-in-box-system-ibc_27.html>scroll

> down to find the liners and bits and pieces.

This idea has been around for quite a few years now and I have seen it
used for cider both here in the UK and in the US (and I think in
Australia too). It was discussed on this list at length a few years ago.
It surprises me how slow it has been to take off, though. Maybe it's the
cost issue? Or maybe it's not taken off because cidermakers are simple
people who just love washing out containers?

It's not very "green", of course, since they are one-trip disposable bags.

[Llanblethian Orchards - Alex]

Price wise I think they were around £16-18ish once I included shipping and bank charges - as I had to pay into an international account. Given it's holding 600L of cider I can live with that cost. One thing I would say is the S60 butterfly valve is crap and leaks, ive since fitted a SS ball valve onto an adaptor which I attach to the S60 connecton.

[Pete Connor]

This sounds brilliant, but do they not expand in the heat of summer.
I have around 3000 litres in ibcs from last year's press. I get film yeast on the open ones which I removes and spay sulphite them but never seems to alter the taste.
Guessing it's the volume of liquid?

But I would be interested in using the bags, if I could see one in action, if there is anybody know uses them

Pete
Vachery Farm cider

[Andrew Lea]

These people have supplied into the UK small scale cider industry for sure http://www.tpsrentalsystems.co.uk/Why_bag_in_box

Maybe worth talking to them as well as to Auer?

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[greg l.]

You can put an air trap on the bags to stop them swelling too much, just like an IBC. The main problem is when bubbles of co2 develop between the layers. I think tiny holes in the liner become nucleation points for co2 gas and though the bags remain watertight some of the volume will be taken up by the bubbles. I guess it depends on the supplier and the quality of the bags, I am in Australia. I can only fill my 200l bags to about 180L, but I never get problems with film yeast or oxidation. The best bags are top-fill, bottom-empty, much easier to manage.

Greg

[Jason Spears]

The bags are great but here in the US it is around $50US for the highest level of oxygen barrier. Not extreme but definitely pricy, adds 15% or so to the product cost. Finding the perfect fittings is a pain.

[Llanblethian Orchards - Alex]

As far as I know Andrew the tps bags are the same as auer, I wouldnt be surprised if the bags are made by Auer to be honest.

[Llanblethian Orchards - Alex]

Hi Pete,

If your getting film yeast on the top I imagine the fermentation has finished so they should not swell up much, possibly just some gas from the malolactic fermentation and you can just loosten the top opening and let the air out if needs be.

[sdc...@gmail.com]

Thanks all. I found the old threads after my initial posting. I thought through everything that was mentioned, but was mostly fishing for what results others had gotten and it seems that both here and in the old thread, bag in box is the better way to store. I was hoping to store in IBC and just top off with co2, but as mentioned here, even that didn't stop all the problems.

Jason, which supplier are you using here in the states?

Thanks

[sdc...@gmail.com]

Thanks Alex, how long were you storing that you were getting oxidation film on top? You think the co2 is at least helpful if it's just a couple of weeks?

Nice work with the bag! 

Personally, I just hate the waste associated with the bags. Are they at least recyclable? :)

[sdc...@gmail.com]

Thanks Andrew. Likely the case on the disappearing pressure as these things must be air tight. They're brand new and have rubber gaskets on everything. 

Think I got what I was looking for with all the responses though. Read some old threads too and bags seem to be the best way to go for long term storage and co2 top off is probably okay for a few weeks. 

They're actually marketing the bags for wine fermentation here in the US now too...the ever evolving world of booze making! 

You all are great.

Cheers!

[Llanblethian Orchards - Alex]

Hi, once the fermentation had completely finished I opened the cider and had a look at it. A little under a month later a film yeast showed up. I don't check the fermentation too often when it's going but i'd say you'd need to start looking to do something within a few weeks of the fermentation stopping, maybe sooner if it is warm.

Plastic is probably recyclable to be honest. As I try and only use in bag in box so I don't have to deal with wrecked plastic barrels stored in some pub cellar for six months I have grown accustomed with waste bags sadly...

Alex

[sdc...@gmail.com]

Andrew, 

From what I've read of your comments, I'm guessing you'd vote against something like vat pasteurizing (or just heating an entire IBC) and then bottling from there. As you'd be concerned with wild yeast getting into mix between the IBC and the bottle. Am I correct in that understanding?

If so, even with an acid sanitation of everything for the bottling, you think heat sterilization is the only safe method for a backsweetened cider bottling?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers!

[Alexi Christidis]

Late reply i know, but additionally these bags would be good to fill with air or just water (if they are sealed well) to simply fill the headspace in the IBC or tank for ageing reds etc...

[Ben]

I like the look of the bags, can you provide a link of where you get them?

Are they only good for ageing or could you attach a airlock and ferment in them to?

Thanks Ben

(I am not the biggest fan of deep cleaning IBCS)

[Michael Thierfelder]

Interesting idea Alexi, to use one of these BIB's as an inflatable bladder to essentially create a variable capacity IBC on the cheap.  Have you ever tried this with cider?

I'd be concerned about all the nooks and cranny's in the BIB being good places for microbes to grow.  

I know Flextank here in the US makes a product that is food grade foam sandwiched in HDPE that is the exact size of the IBC so it floats on top to minimize surface to air contact.  You have to buy their special IBC's though because they have a large 24" round opening on top so you can get them inside. Their IBC's are about $1000 compared to $150 for the Schuetz ones so not the most economical for startups like me.

[Philip Wilcox]

I've been struggling with white film on the ciders I make in IBC's and I'm now kicking myself about using the giant IBC bags. I use them with Arlington collapsible IBCs to send my beer for bottling and the juice I use comes in mylar versions.

Hopefully switching to them will sort things out, I just need to deal with getting it to clear in a quicker time.....

Phil

[Llanblethian Orchards - Alex]

Hi,

you can get a bit of a film yeast in the bags too, but if you exclude all the air you can and sulphite when putting it into the bag the film does not tend to develop much and eventually goes, im guessing when the oxygen is used up. Doesnt seem to affect the flavour either.

Alex