Pectic enzyme vs. pectin methylesterase

[William Grote]

The kits arrived today from Cider Supply, one last question before I jump into my first real keeve attempt.

I have been searching for a better explanation of the difference between 'pectic enzyme', (PE) such as that made by BSG and sold in most homebrew shops to reduce pectin haze, and pectin methylesterase (PME), sold specifically for keeving.

I have always used PE when I have to suffice with pasteurized juices as I find the process sets the pectin and I can never get it to clear

I am attempting my first keeve and have half as much unpasteurized  raw juice as I desire, so I must resort to adding a few gallons of Whole Foods fresh pressed cider, which comes from Carlson Orchards in Harvard MA, and is flash pasteurized

Should I add a bit of PE to the pasteurized juice 24 hours before mixing it with the raw, and then add the PME to the whole batch, or just mix them together and add only the PME?

I realize that there will be no apiculate yeast in the pasteurized juice necessary for the rise of the cap, as such I have a gallon of delicious smelling wild yeast cider still going strong  at 48F down to SG 1010 which I can use ( or use the lees after racking ) to inoculate the batch with to make up for the lack of yeast in the pasteurized juice, and I plan to mix in about 32oz of high acid juice from recently pressed, long sweated wild apples that were the last of this year's foraging, this juice has been sulfited and kept very cold, but has just started to bubble and has no off smells at all.

Thank you for any input or advice

William

[Claude Jolicoeur]

For my part, I would rather make a smaller batch of keeved cider with only the proper juice.
You'd probably have better chances of success that way.

As of the difference between PME and normal pectic enzyme (also called pectinase), you need to understand that a pectinase is a cocktail of different enzymes including PME that entirely degrades pectins, while PME only works on a particular aspect of the pectic chain. Mixing the two would not work for keeving.
Claude

[Cider Supply, LLC]

Hi William, PME at least what you have is ultra-pure and about as concentrated as it gets without becomig unstable and breaking down. No other activities are blended in with the PME. It only has one job and thats to break down the pectin molicules as fast as possible and completely as possible.

The general pectinase or pectolase common for clarification usally is far less concentrated for economical reasons and since it works over a longer period of time to do other juice tasks. The general pectinase blends are setup with other enzyme activities to address sevral causes of haze in sevral types of juice. These other enzyme activities can interfere with with the 'Pure PME keeving task' and not allowing the cap to form or react with the CaCl2 properly.

On your flash pasturized juice, i think that you will have troubles using it because both freezing and pasturizing in some respects sets it up and greatly lowers chances of getting a pure keeve since the PME cannot break the pectins down as well.

However with all said, its worth a try. I would just blend both juices, and add only the PME. PME enzymes are not self-propelled and rely on random contact to do their work. So in this case i would stir the juice without aerating it many times over 24 hours to maximize activity. Then blend on your CaCl2.

If the other juice or both juices are dessert apples, the pectin levels often are low and an uphill battle may be at hand.

Nevertheless give it a try if it doesnt keeve, you still can have a dry cider like normal.

Best regards
Chris Rylands

[Cider Supply, LLC]

But Claude is right, for your best chance, try to keeve the non pasturized juice.

[bembel]

Sigh, I feel like a kid a christmas who just got a toy without the batteries, only the other way around!  3 weeks 'till the next opportunity to buy raw juice. 

Thank you both for your input and advice!!  I will wait until I can secure more juice.

Since I have some time to plan now now and possibly re-think equipment, are there any techniques that have been employed to remove the cap from the top of the keeved juice  rather than siphon the juice from under the cap?  Does anyone try to remove the cap with a skimming tool of sorts ?  Just curious

Cheers

William

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 3:42 AM, Cider Supply, LLC <cryl...@comcast.net> wrote:

But Claude is right, for your best chance, try to keeve the non pasturized juice.

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[Cider Supply, LLC]

When you get enough of the right kind of juice in an open top drum, you can grin, say "Oh Yea!" and use a shovel :-)

Best regards
Chris