Cider Apples

[Ben Kessler]

Hello all,

     I am new to this group but have been brewing beer and mead for may years and recently started doing cider and country wines at home. I have planted some cider apple and pear varieties at home but these will not produce a crop for some time. I have had to make my cider from desert apples but have been fortunate enough to have located some wild trees where I pick very small unfertilized apples to make cider and it has turned out surprisingly well. I have looked for actual cider apples but cannot find where any are grown which I could pick or purchase. I live close to Portland, Oregon and would like to know if anyone knows where I could get ahold of actual cider apples.

Thank you,

Ben

[woodcarver]

A real shortage of these apples. Poverty Lane Orchards (in New Hampshire, USA) ships juice from cider varieties. They make Farnum Hill Cider. It's pricey, but a fair market value. Glad you're having success with wilding trees. Ours are too acidic. They certainly add to a cider but they need balancing.

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

So did you plant any cider apples? Why do you think the wild apples are not fertilized? We are lucky that one of our wildling crabs has a lot of tannins and that really helps make the cider better. You are in an area with lots of cider interest, you should be able to find some cidermakers cider, might be hard to find right now but this is a good time to do some legwork and find out who will have some this coming season. Good luck with our trees, WVMJ

On Sunday, May 4, 2014 2:14:30 PM UTC-4, Ben Kessler wrote:

[Ben Kessler]

Thanks for the info about Poverty Lane shipping juice. I will look into that here and see what is available. It will be nice to try some actual cider apples in the mix.

[Ben Kessler]

Hey Jack. I did plant 2 Kingston Black apple trees, a Normanischen Cider Birne tree and a Barland pear tree. The wild apples are in dense brush and are very small and the trees look thin like they are barely getting what they need. I know animals probably accidentally fertilize them but it isn't like with a store bought apple where there is so much fertilizer that the apple swells and it full of nutrients for the yeast to work on. I have been keeving and so I want apples that are not fertilized if I can get them.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Ben Kessler wrote:

Hey Jack. I did plant 2 Kingston Black apple trees, a Normanischen Cider Birne tree ...

I am really curious as to what this "Normanischen Cider Birne" really is... Obviously, this is the german way to write "Perry pear from Normandy" - From this we could assume that this is a Norman perry pear that was brought into Germany or Austria, original French name was lost, but people remembered it originally came from Normandy, and then it was brought into the US and kept in the Corvallis pear gene bank under this "Normanischen Cider Birne" name, and from there redistributed to many US perry pear growers...

Some day, someone will have to compare the fruit to that of some of the Norman perry pears in order to find it's true identity...

Claude

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

OK, funny on me, you meant trees that didnt get much nitrogen as unfertilized, I thought you had found a seedless apple:)  We mapped all the wildling apples on our farm, then yesterday we saw some blooms at the edge of the woods and we found a new apple tree, its got a few blooms and we get another new apple to taste. WVMJ

On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Ben Kessler <benkes...@comcast.net> wrote:

Hey Jack. I did plant 2 Kingston Black apple trees, a Normanischen Cider Birne tree and a Barland pear tree. The wild apples are in dense brush and are very small and the trees look thin like they are barely getting what they need. I know animals probably accidentally fertilize them but it isn't like with a store bought apple where there is so much fertilizer that the apple swells and it full of nutrients for the yeast to work on. I have been keeving and so I want apples that are not fertilized if I can get them.

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[Ben Kessler]

Hey Claude,

Here is the link from the site where I ordered my tree from. There is a brief description indicating it is from Normandy and is also grown in Austria. There is a description of it's appearance as well on the site.

http://www.cumminsnursery.com/perry.htm

Also, here is a description from the following site regarding the fruit.

http://www.fourseasonscabinrental.com/pears.html

"(1913 Normandy, France) This Perry pear was named for Normandy, France, where it was originated. In Normandy, France, and in upper Austria this cultivar grows widely. It is excellent for making perry and for distillation. The fruit is small, turbinate, and greenish-yellow covered with cinnamon-russet and ashy-gray dots. The flesh is yellowish-white, somewhat dry and can be sweet but with some sprightliness."

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Yes, this is what I thought - the only thing is that this pear certainly has a name in Normandy (and this name surely isn't "Normanischen Cider Birne"), and it is that name I would like to know!
Some of the better known perry pears in Normandy are Plant de blanc, de Cloche, Antricotin, Champagne, Jaunette, but I see there is also one called Normandie - it could be that one, however I don't have a description for it to compare with what we have for Normanischen Cider Birne.

[Ben Kessler]

I am not sure how to determine what it's true name is. Perhaps when it bears some fruit I could begin trying to compare it.

[rosilee Smith]

Ben are you in Oregon , or do you live in Washington?

On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 6:15 PM, Ben Kessler <benkes...@comcast.net> wrote:

I am not sure how to determine what it's true name is. Perhaps when it bears some fruit I could begin trying to compare it.

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[Ben Kessler]

Hey Rose,

I live in Oregon.

Ben

[t...@functionalmedia.com]

Claude, 

About Normanishcen Cider Birne

Cummins nursery was one of the earlier places to have perry pears. 

I suppose you could contact them, but I suspect the source for this tree is the  (USA) National Clonal Germplasm Repository in Corvallis Oregon. 

From this web page here. 

http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/search.pl?accid=%20PI+231806

Is the history they have for Normanischen Cider Berne. 

You may already be aware of this of course. It states the pedigree is uncertain, so I guess we all would like to know what this pear is. That page has many pictures so someone familiar with pears of Normandy might be able to narrow it down. 

The original source seems to be. 

"from budwood presented by the Max Planck institute fur Zuchtungs-forschung Cologne, recieved March 20, 1956"

So.. next time you are in Cologne, you are that much closer to tracking down another name for this tree. 

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[Richard Hyde]

Hi Ben......I'm fairly new too.

Were up in BC and are in the process of preparing ground for proper cider apple tree production.  All the staple cider apples you would expect.  We hope to have 60/70 acres planted within 5 years.  Time to actual fruit will vary of course and demand may not be there for our "contract" growing operations.  We have our own start up Cidery too so worst case we will supply ourselves with loads of apples.

There is a very good supplier of the proper trees you need right in Oregon.  These people were recommended to me by Shona at Denman Island Apple Trees.  Follow this link: http://www.willamettenurseries.com/

They have rootstock and will make you up whatever quantity of whips you need.  Were ordering 5000 for next spring.

Hope this helps.

RH.

[Richard Hyde]

Correction.......Sorry.

They are just a rootstock supplier.  Scion wood is somewhat easy to get so you can take a grafting class and go knock yourself out.  I did this this year and am happy to report about a 90% success rate.

There are quite a few Scion wood suppliers in the US.  Just do a search on Google.  Northern Cali is the nearest for you.  I spoke to them.  Very helpful.

Sorry for the earlier misinformation.

[Ben Kessler]

Richard,

That is exciting that wou are planting so many trees. I would love to own property where I could grow cider varieties of apples and pears. Thank you for the information about where to get trees and scion wood. I only have so much space so the trees I've planted are what I will have to make due with. It just takes time for them to produce apples and I have been wanting to try my hand with cider apples for the last 2 years.

I know there is a real shortage of true cider apples in my area but I keep hoping I will find someone who is willing to sell some to me.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Tom wrote:

About Normanishcen Cider Birne

Cummins nursery was one of the earlier places to have perry pears. 

I suppose you could contact them, but I suspect the source for this tree is the  (USA) National Clonal Germplasm Repository in Corvallis Oregon. 

Yes, the Corvallis facility has had a collection of perry pears for quite a while, and no one was interested in these until relatively recently... But this surely is the original source of most or all perry pears now grown in Americe. Myself I had some perry pear wood from them in the mid-90's. If someone knows about it's true identity in America, it would be Joseph Postman who takes care of the pear collection in Corvallis. I wonder if he has studied the question...

But this case is by no means unique... In Switzerland, they grow a bittersweet apple under the name "Pomme Normande" - again, most likely a Norman apple that was introduced in Switzerland, and whose original name was lost. And even the well known Bulmer's Norman is most likely an apple that exist or existed in Normandy with a French name which is now forgotten by everybody...

What I find strange with the Normannischen Ciderbirne is that they claim it is grown widely in Normandy - if they know this, they ought to know it's true French name!

Claude

[Ben Kessler]

Claude,

Here is a link to an image of the Normanischen Cider Birne. If it looks familiar to anyone please let me know.

http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/dispimage.pl?126679

[Tom Hanlon]

I think the library at the Max Planck Institute for plant breeding and
genetics in Koln would be the best place to research this.

Someone from that institute gave scionwood in the 1950's, surely they
studied the trees in addition to sharing scion wood.

Google can only take us so deep into these libraries. Anyone in or
near Koln care to visit the Max Planck institute for plant breeding
and genetics and ask the archivist who was studying pear trees in the
50's and what papers they produced, or what trees that they had in the
collection ?

I am finding that my 3 year old planting of Normanischen CiderBerne to
be successful -- so far -- in Southeastern ohio. Third year in, they
are growing well on OHF-33. Took scionwood and top worked some
established seedling pears of decent size, should have some fruit to
crush and analyze next fall.

They seem to be more vigorous than, gin, brandy, yellow huffcap and
hendre huffcap that where planted at the same time.

Sample size is small, so it could just as well be luck of the draw in
terms of planting location and random events. So not scientific, but
seems to be vigorous and tolerant.

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[Thomas Fehige]

I'd think you can write them a mail in English:
pr...@mpipz.mpg.de .
Only I doubt if they'd have that kind of "ancient" info at their fingertips. I did some web searching on "Normannische Ciderbirne" (and associated spellings) when the topic came up. I got the impression that the Austrian "Mostviertel" might be the place to look.

Good luck -- Thomas

[Ben Kessler]

Hey all. I did write the Max Planck Institute in Koln, DE and they said they don't have records back that far. Here is the reply I got...

"Dear Mr. Kessler,

regarding your pedigree question you should contact the Federal Plant Variety Office (b...@bundessortenamt.de).
Unfortunately there is no information about such former activities in the institute available.

Best regards

W. Schuchert"

I than wrote the Fed Pland Variety Office but have not heard back from them. I did some more digging and came up with some info. I found mention of a William Goetze who was a German explorer who wrote about the pear and I am trying to find more info about what he wrote.

Ben

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I just noticed this perry pear is included in the "Pears of New York" of Hedrick, 1921. He refers there to "Mostbirnen", a work obviously on perry pears by Loschnig, published in 1913. I can't find that book however. Hedricks' text is most likely a simple English translation from the Loschnig text.

Here is the complete entry from Pears of New York:

Normännische Ciderbirne. 1. Loschnig Mostbirnen 168, fig. 1913.

This pear was found growing wild in Normandy, Fr., and in Upper Austria, and is
excellent for making perry and for distillation. Fruit very small, turbinate, greenish-
yellow covered with cinnamon-russet and ashy-gray dots; flesh yellowish-white, rather
dry, sweet but with some sprightliness ; Sept.

[Ben Kessler]

Thank you Claude. It sounds like it may not have a name in French if it was found growing wild.

Ben

[Barry M]

Hello, long time reader, first time poster ;)

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I stumbled across it while trying to find out more about the Normännische Ciderbirne.

I saw the 1913 dates as the origin on the Cummins Nursery site, however this seems to only relate to the description by Löschnig. In fact, there are earlier mentions of this variety in German publications.

Illustrierte Garten-Zeitung, Stuttgart, 1883, pp 255: mentions a pomologist, Mr. Hoser, recommending use of this „widely cultivated“ variety.

Verhandlungen der Deutscher Pomologen und Obstzüchter in Würzburg (7-10. Oktober 1880), published in 1882: Here the Normännishe Ciderbirne is recommended as a stem-builder/interstock, and interestingly also gives an alternative name in parentheses, Besi d’Antenèse, which I can find no other mention of.

It is mentioned in a few other publications. In 1878 in the Der Gartenfreund, published in Vienna, it was being recommended to local governments for planting alongside streets.

In a 1962 paper, it was pointed out that Austria was importing a lot of rootstock from France, and the author lamented that Löschnig’s advice from 1913 to not use the Normännischen Ciderbirne was not taken. Quoting Löschnig: "Although it grows straight and immensely strongly in the tree nursery, so that it was a popular trunk builder for a long time, it is still a very popular tree. Due to its sensitivity to frost (frost plates) and its cylindrical, non-conical trunks, however, it is unsuitable for this. "

So it seems that by the 1880s it was already well known and widely used in Germany, either planted or more usually as an interstock. :)

One has to wonder if it was at all a specific variety, or simply a seedling imported from France at some stage for use as a Stammbildner/rootstock that ended up being grown for its own right, a bit like Bulmer’s Norman seemed to escape its original rootstock role in England. :)

[Claude Jolicoeur]

That is very interesting research! You seem to have access to quite a bit of old German pomology works.

As of the name Besi d’Antenèse, there are a few Franch pears that use the word Besi in their naming, so it is not too uncommon. In my database I see Besi de Quessoy, Besi de St-Waast and Besi de Chaumontel - but no Besi d’Antenèse...

Claude

[Barry M]

Google books is a great resource for finding scanned versions :) Sadly, Löschnig's book is not readily available (even from antiquarian book dealers, and I've been trying to find it for two years now), but I've just requested that Google make scans public domain as it is now 71 years since his death. Let's see!

[Michael]

It seems to have originated in Normandy, probably on the estate of an almost-forgotten nobleman:

Let's not forget (remember, in this brief notice, the pious cl foundations of this House, among which the convent and the church of the Dominican Friar-Preachers built in 1019 by Thomas P' de Morant, in his barony of Mesnil-Garnier, close to his castle which was a class It is "one of the most important in Normandy". In the convent had been buried several members of Morant's family, including Thomas 11". of the name, and, in 1783, the Marquise de Morant. It was also the place of deposit of the titles and archives of this House, but everything was shot down and devastated during the Revolution. \ Rouen, Jeanne de Morant, married to Charles de Becdcliène, gen- tilhomme ordinaire of the House of Kings Henry IV and Louis XIII, who distinguished himself in Hungary under the Duke of Mercœur, founded a chapel cl a convent, in the street which still today bears the name of Morant.
Besides the fact that she has always distinguished herself by her eminent services, her fidelity to her father's wishes was also a matter of great importance. attachment to its Sovereigns, this ancient breed has contracted the most brilliant alliances, some of which relate to the memories of the great feudalism. Let us mention among others: the Alleaume, from Am- phernft, d'Antenèse...

from:
https://archive.org/details/MagnyLeNobiliaireUniversel25