New nordic traditional orchard/tree selection advice

[Eero Saue]

Dear All,

My first post here, to ask for comments-advice on establishing a new, traditional cider-orchard. I have many questions, but at this stage focussed on varietal selection and rootstock advice. 

For introduction and background of my existing knowledge level, I have been following the forum already for a while, have read both the C.Jolicoeur and A.Lea cidermaking books, the M.Phillips applegrower&orcharding books, plus some reference books on varieties (L.Copas, J.Morgan). That in addition to scouring the archive here on the forum.  I have been impressed by the depth of knowledge and readiness to share by the people participating here, and very much hoping to also benefit from this.   

My project in a nutshell: I have decided to establish a cider orchard on one of the Estonian islands where my roots are, to have this in full production only by time I might be retiring from office work (10+ years, would rather delay crops) to have smth pleasant that might also support income a bit.  And in worst case, become a lesson to other makers on what varieties/practices don't work in Estonian context. 

Key parameters and initial choices: 

- location: Estonia, Hiiumaa (https://goo.gl/maps/Vg2VwWs6p1SFmMkJ8). USDA hardiness zone would be 4-5, but growing season is quite short reflecting the latitude.  

- plot - light slope east-southeast, protected from north winds. Soil analysis not yet done, well drained mostly (am in talks with specialists for the improvements). About 3ha land for planting (service land is in addition)

- Planting about 300 trees in the first go; low input expansive-traditional orchard. Of which for apples, about 180 english/french bittersweet-bittersharp varieties, about 20 crabs, plus 50 estonian eating varieties that might make a flavour contribution. In addition, about 40 perry pears, plus some quince to see if they barely survive or smth better. 

- Rootstock: i want fully vigorous trees, and ideally was thinking of planting for each variety the same tree on own root, on seedling (antonovka) and on m25. 

Now, choices and questions:

1 Choice of varieties. Local varieties do not have good tannin, and there is limited experience with the traditional cider varieties to know how these do in Estonia as far as i know. 

1.1- - Would anyone have experience with cider and perry varieties in Estonia/Finland/Northern Sweden/Latvia/similar? 

1.2-- What to expect on the expression of the apples in such conditions, short growing season?

1.3-- specific varieties to avoid?

1.4-- I've mostly focussed on the UK varieties (just like that type of cider more), but are there good and hardy enough French varieties worth trying?   The IFPC varietal descriptions have some indication, but i haven't found much FR single-varietals to taste to know anything about the flavour profile (except Guillevic and avrolles) . Any references on this (can read french)?

2 Question of rootstocks. I very much like the idea of own root trees (i've seen the separate, if inconclusive discussions), but even if I managed to get hold of these, does anyone have comparative data on eg disease susceptibility of these? 

3 Question of sourcing: Any recommendations of nurseries that might be able to fulfill [parts of] such order and deliver in Europe? I have no idea how ordering from UK would work with brexit, as delivery should be in 2021.

I hope this long list does not amount to abuse of the good will on the forum; I am sure you will tell me :)

Best regards,

Eero

[Jeffrey Lewis]

Hey!  A topic I can contribute to!

Hi Eero, I'm doing something similar to you but in Umeå, Sweden.  I only have 30 trees in the ground now, but have 10 more ready to plant this spring after overwintering in pots and have just grafted up 50 more.  The 30 trees in the ground are only 2 years old.  So take my limited experience for what it is worth.

1.1  If you read Swedish, have a look at this report from the Swedish Agricultural University SLU "Cider apples in Sweden": https://pub.epsilon.slu.se/14769/1/LTV-rapport%202017-17%20Hilde%20Nybom-2.pdf

Even if you don't read Swedish, you can probably understand Table 1.  I corresponded with the author and Hilde Nybom (now retired) and she recommended several of the earlier ripening varieties that Liz Copas developed at Long Ashton: Jane, Prince William and Lizzy for Umeå.  The report recommends Angela, Brown's apple, Dabinett, Fiona, Harry Masters, Jane, Lizzy, Prince William, Sweet Alford  and Three Counties as being worthwhile for further tests in Sweden.  Another Swedish tip is Claes Mark who runs Mark Cider (www.markcider.se) north of Oskarshamn.  He  planted his cider orchard in 2012.  He spent 12 years in England and learned about cider apple trees from John Worle.  I have spoken to him a few times and I am sure he would be happy to help you in English, he struck me as very knowledgeable.  Up near me in Umeå Brännlands Cider has had a lot of success with ice ciders but they exclusively use Swedish dessert apples so I'm not sure how much advice they could provide for your project.  An English guy who is a TV gardening personality in Sweden planted 1000 English cider trees near Gothenburg in 2019 but I have not been in touch with him.  Claude Jolicoeur's experiences in Quebec are at least somewhat relevant to us.  He recently gave an update to his experience and unless I am mistaken he has had the most success with Bulmers Norman and Yarlington Mill.  For my part, I found a wild apple tree in Sigtuna (slightly north of your location) that seems to be a really nice bittersweet.  I have propagated it this year.  

1.2 No idea.  The SLU report generally dismisses all later ripening apples due to this concern.  

1.3  The SLU report specifically mentions that Kingston Black is not recommended for Sweden.  

1.4  I have found suggestions online that Binet Rouge and Kermerrien might work in colder climates.  I grafted up both last year.  The first year of growth - for whatever that is worth - may suggest good vigour in Kermerrien.  It is probably too early to draw any conclusions.

2.  Seedling trees are hardy but it seems to be something of a guess as to what you are going to get.  Impossible to propagate named varieties as seedlings.

3.  I have found no nurseries in Europe that supply cider apple varieties on Antonovka, A2, B9 or B118 rootstocks.  If you find a nursery that does, please let me know!

Great to hear about your project!

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Nice project!

First I would recomment you get in touch with some guys that already do this in your area of the world. Two that I have had the pleasure to meet are:

Alvar Roosimaa of Jaanihanso cidery in Estonia - www.jaanihanso.ee

And in Latvia, Māris Plūme of Mr. Plūme cidery - www.mrplume.lv

Māris in particular has made quite a bit of experimentation with European varieties as well as with some native seedlings he has found. He does sneak at this forum once in a while, so he might see this.

Le mercredi 29 avril 2020 04:55:21 UTC-4, Eero Saue a écrit :

- Rootstock: i want fully vigorous trees, and ideally was thinking of planting for each variety the same tree on own root, on seedling (antonovka) and on m25. 

I am a bit puzzled by your intent to plant trees on their own roots. It is very difficult (if not impossible) to propagate apple trees on their own roots, and no nursery will do that for you. Another rootstock option you may wish to consider is the B-118.

1.4-- I've mostly focussed on the UK varieties (just like that type of cider more), but are there good and hardy enough French varieties worth trying?   The IFPC varietal descriptions have some indication, but i haven't found much FR single-varietals to taste to know anything about the flavour profile (except Guillevic and avrolles) . Any references on this (can read french)?

If you read French, you might like to look at this: http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/Documents/tableau_vars.pdf

Also my French book (I assume you have read the English one) has more on French varieties, plus a couple of additional chapters for small commercial cideries that could be of interest (http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/pommieraucidre.htm).

For sure it is not in the habit of the French cider makers to make varietal ciders. They almost always work with blends, Guillevic being the exception to the rule...

Claude

[Eero Saue]

Jeffrey, Claude, thank you both for the input and kind words!

The SLU report is very useful for seeing what works in the area (did a google doc translate), and Claude's table likewise (and your book in french has been ordered for good measure). My situation should be somewhere inbetween regarding hardiness, and more or less similar to Umea. The lists (and info i got from locals) seem to converge on some conclusions - even if that means some of the vintage varieties i hoped for won't be in.. but others seem to thrive. Interestingly, I haven't seen much discussion on the new "girls" varieties before, but these seem to be well recommended.

I have already talked to some people growing traditional varieties in Estonia, but these are in early stages; most (incl Jaanihanso, Tori Siidritalu etc) use local eating varieties (confirmed also with the local fruit research institute). Thanks for the further contacts, will check with markcider and MrPlume (in Latvia, also the fruit research institute). Once i get the body of cider varieties in ground, i'd be interested to propagate regional promising varieties, would be interested to see how the Sigtuna wildling would do. 

In the meanwhile, very open to recommendations from where to order? Any nursery in Sweden that does cider apples also?

On Rootstocks:

- own root - i know this was a stretch, but i got my hopes up from https://www.orangepippintrees.co.uk/articles/own-root-fruit-trees referring to their use of the Hugh Ermen method (graft on m27, bury graft union) for some trees. I have asked them, but no response yet. I take no experience with such experiments here - which means not really appropriate for a beginner amateur either. 

- Antonovka seedling rootstock with cider variety grafted on top - i haven't seen pregrafted either, but have seen antonovka rootstocks sold separately. But i have not found evidence that that this would confer any advantage over M25 (could be slightly bigger, but more susceptible to disease?).

- M25/B118 - I haven't found nurseries using B118 either; M25 or M111 seem to be the choice for vigorous trees.

Thanks again,

Eero

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 30 avril 2020 15:55:34 UTC-4, Eero Saue a écrit :

- own root - i know this was a stretch, but i got my hopes up from https://www.orangepippintrees.co.uk/articles/own-root-fruit-trees referring to their use of the Hugh Ermen method (graft on m27, bury graft union) for some trees. I have asked them, but no response yet. I take no experience with such experiments here - which means not really appropriate for a beginner amateur either. 

I've tried that method of burying the graft union, but I don't find this is a good strategy, trees have lacked vigor.

One strategy you could try would be to order the varieties on M111 (which are among the easiest to procure in Europe with M106) and once you have those trees, you can order Antonovka roots and make your own grafts on these.

There are plenty of nurseries in France and in UK. Those from France should be able to ship to Estonia without problem. From UK, with brexit, might be different.

[Māris Plūme]

Hello Eero and everyone!

I already answered in private message, but will post that info also here for others to see.

“Hi! We grow Dabinett with success and one other producer closer to Valga region grows Yarlington mill sucessfully. Dabinett struggles in his orchard, and he says there is no hope for Kingston Black in his orchard.
At the moment this is all I can say with confidence. I would also reccomend to start looking for local tannic apples on roadsides. And if you find something good, graft it in your orchard. Good luck!”

I will just add that our orchard is in the middle of Latvia, not the warmest, not the coldest part. In colder parts of country Dabinett is struggling.

And see you all tomorrow at online cider drinking organized by Gabe Cook - The Ciderologist. We will be there, too.
Cheers!

[Eero Saue]

Hi all again and thanks for your suggestions on an off the forum.

On burying the graft union, it seems to not make much difference for standards, found this reference in US that actually recommends burying for all standard rs. https://www.grandpasorchard.com/page/Planting-it-Just-right  But will take this to the research institute also to see if any arguments against. 

For what it is worth, my long list below (sweets&crabs will be from local varieties) below. It seems that there is not sufficient data to be sure, so I think I will just have to try and see what works or not. And also what i can actually get, as the two places i've identified (irish fruit and nut; dalival) don't carry all of these combined, might need to seek scionwood in winter. 

Until then, would still be interested in recommendations for specific nurseries (esp in FR). 

Best,

Eero 

Major	vigorous in CA. seems a good bet
Yarlington Mill	seems to work in many places
Harry Masters Jersey	very much like the flavour. explicit rec for SE
Bulmers Norman	seems to work in many places
Ashton Bitter	?any info?
Kermerrien	Seems to work in CA, SE
Foxhelp	grows both in SE, CA, but might be overly acid
Dymock Red	?? Any info?
Muscadet de Dieppe	works in CA and SE
White Jersey	?? Any info?
Frequin rouge	works in SE, but late maturation
Browns	already full sharp. might be even  sharper than UK, but seems to work
Stokke Red	should be vigorous, but might not fruit… Very late..
Lizzy	new. For interesting tannins
Helen's Apple	new. Good resistance, stronger grower upright
Angela	new girl. Good flavour, pinkish
Willy	new. Fruit drop.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le dimanche 3 mai 2020 17:25:27 UTC-4, Eero Saue a écrit :

Until then, would still be interested in recommendations for specific nurseries (esp in FR). 

Unfortunately, not many members from France in this forum who could give recommendations!

An internet search under "pépinière pommier à cidre" will show quite a number of nurseries - I guess you will have to send emails to know if they ship to other countries in EU. But maybe you have done that already...

[Eero Saue]

Merci encore! 

I was hoping for a one-stop-shop, but it will be a bit harder way then.

best,

Eero

[Jeffrey Lewis]

Eero:

Keep in mind that the nurseries in France (and the UK) are almost certainly not going to carry trees that are grafted on cold-hardy rootstocks.  You may be able to order them if you are willing to wait a few years.  I investigated this a few years ago and was in contact with at least 10 nurseries.  I eventually gave up and accepted that I would have to do the grafting myself.

Keep us informed of your progress!  If you do find a nursery that carries bittersweets on A2, Antonovka or the B-series rootstocks I would love to hear about it.

/Jeff

[George Norman]

Hi Eero,

I'm doing something similar to you in Halland, southern Sweden and have found similar sources for the planting of my modest cider orchard (currently 20 trees on wild rootstock: Bramley        

Dabinet, Yarlington Mill, Browns apple, Elllis Bitter, Stoke Red, Tremlets bitter). I have chosen English varieties from a nursery in Denmark http://www.de-gamle-sorter.dk run by Boi Jensen, who grafts on wild rootstock and has a reasonably large selection. There is also a new nursery in Southern Sweden (that Boi has links to) with a limited selection who graft on to Antonovka. I will be looking to graft from the abundant wild apple varieties in the area soon. I've also been seduced by the idea of own-root trees, but the lack of any supporting information has led me to believe that grafting on wild or Antonovka are both good options for durable, hardy plants with good compatibility (though not sure how a weaker growing variety would fare on a vigorous rootstock). I believe Antonovka is known for being deep rooting and very cold hardy, so better able to make in adverse conditions.

George

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:55:21 AM UTC+2, Eero Saue wrote:

[Jeffrey Lewis]

George:
Thanks for that information, I had not heard of Boi. What is the name of the Swedish nursery you mentioned?

I am in Umeå, have a small test orchard of cider varieties on Antonovka, A2 and B9 rootstock. We should stay in touch.

Jeff

[Eero Saue]

Thanks both, the DK option looks interesting, great if you could share the SE nursery also!

Do you know what seedlings he uses?

Otherwise i also found http://www.ameliasapples.co.uk/menu.html for scionwood of more rare varieties (but now orders to go in form Sept) and https://fairplant.nl/products/page/2/?filter_vigor=vigorous for rootstocks; for ready trees http://www.fruitandnut.ie/. 

Limited selection of eating varieties, but on A2&Antonovka from LV  https://www.puresdis.lv/abeles-stadi-vasaras-rudens-ziemas#liela-auguma

best,

Eero

[Jeffrey Lewis]

I’ve been in touch with Boi. His rootstocks are brought in from Russia and are seed grown. Probably Antonovka. Being Russian, one can assume they are cold hardy. Boi’s contact in Sweden is Mats Andersson. His email is in...@fagelvik.se. Mats has a really interesting nursery in climate zone 7 in Sweden which is roughly USDA climate zone 3. It is harsh. He doesn’t have a website but maintains a Facebook page. Search for Fågelviks Trädgård. He has a long list of apple cultivars, including many cider varieties. I’m looking forward to corresponding with him.

[George Norman]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the tips. The Swedish nursery is https://blekingefrukttradplantskola.selz.com. Would be good to stay in touch, as you say. Happy to share scion wood in the future.

George

On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 08:02, Jeffrey Lewis <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve been in touch with Boi.  His rootstocks are brought in from Russia and are seed grown.  Probably Antonovka.  Being Russian, one can assume they are cold hardy.  Boi’s contact in Sweden is Mats Andersson.  His email is in...@fagelvik.se.  Mats has a really interesting nursery in climate zone 7 in Sweden which is roughly USDA climate zone 3.  It is harsh.  He doesn’t have a website but maintains a Facebook page.  Search for Fågelviks Trädgård.  He has a long list of apple cultivars, including many cider varieties.  I’m looking forward to corresponding with him.

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/nql9_VL649c/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/f20fefee-f2fc-45c3-a2bb-f1c8ac849e0f%40googlegroups.com.

[Per Buhre]

Hi.

Just to inform you that I have 85 trees from Boi in my orchard. So far so good. Kingston Black has the weakest growth. Foxwhelp is the most happy variety. Lives in Orust, Sweden.



Skickat från min iPhone

> 14 maj 2020 kl. 09:20 skrev George Norman <georgewil...@gmail.com>:
>

[joht...@me.com]

Hi Eero.

We have 3000 cider-apple trees (Own grafts and 1500 bought from John Worles last nursery) planted just outside Malmö. I'll mail you more info. Excuse my short reply due to work pressure. 
Regards - John, Torun and Johan at Dryg Cider. 

[anis....@gmail.com]

Hi Eero!

I have similar plans as you have but on the west coast of sweden. Apart from the tips you've already got I have the links below. I haven't bought anything yet so I do not know about the quality.

Nursery for french varieties in Denmark:

https://ardeche.dk/sortiment.html

A small nursery across the water from you with 15 cider varieties:

https://www.svartbackens.com/plantskola-for-frukt-bar-not

another danish one:

https://www.nordiskselvforsyning.dk/shop/cms-3.html

The largest cider producer in our area using "cider apples" I know of is Fejö Cider in Denmark, might be worth a look for inspiration:

https://fejoecider.dk/

/Änis

[eer...@gmail.com]

Thanks to both, it is great to see things happening in the northern parts of Europe also!

Will check out the links. In this strange time, some of my plans have been changed for me, so i will put in ground only a 40smth trees this year, and a bunch of rootstocks. So i will seek scionwood next winter for grafting, and have fun making varietal plans.

best,

Eero

[joht...@me.com]

We have quite a few whips over, Fiona, Gilly, Price William and Court de Wyck on MM 111. 

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

Hi John.  I contacted you directly via email.  I am interested.  

/Jeff Lewis