Fermentation off to an apparent slow start.

[maynard]

Hi all,

I've been reading these threads for a bit, and spurred to posting action by my first attempt at cider making

I pitched the yeast yesterday, so far there's no activity on the airlock.  I'd like to run my plan by all of you just as a sanity check.

First the detail of what I've done so far.

The apples were all untreated apples picked from a few unknown varieties of local trees, and pressed by us.  The person we were pressing apples with splashed a little bleach into the tub full of water that the apples were sitting in prior to milling.  I tried to talk her out of it, but she just wasn't having it.

I tested the specific gravity (OG) and PH of the must and came up with 1.055 (corrected for estimated temperature) and 3.4.  Based on that I add 10 crushed campden tablets to 6 gallons of must. I also added at the same time 4.5 tsp of pectic enzyme.

I took my White Labs 002 bottle of yeast out of the fridge and let it come to room temperature before pitching it about 28 hours after adding the campden tablets.  It's about 15 hours later, and there's no activity on the airlock (which is filled with vodka). I neglected to double check the expiration date on the yeast before pitching, but I bought it a few weeks ago.

Ambient temperature is probably around 70degrees, and the yeast manufacturer recommends 70-75 degrees for this yeast.



I think that probably the bleach she added to the water, is probably not affecting the fermentation, because it was a small amount, and even less when diluted by the must. Also, I'm sure some of the bleach would have been dissipated by the time I pitched the yeast, but it is a possibility.

Much more likely is either the seal on my bucket ferementer isn't really tight, or the yeast is just off to a slow start.

Here's my plan:

Make sure everything is seated as well as it can be, both lid and airlock.
Be patient and hope it starts by tomorrow (maybe checking the temperature somehow, probably with a sanitized instant read thermometer).
If not, check the gravity again for evidence of fermentation.
If still nothing pitch some more yeast, maybe using a 1 pint starter this time.

Does this sound like an OK conclusion, and a reasonable plan of action?  Does anybody see any problems in the steps I've taken so far that would cause a slow start?

If I pull the lid on the bucket, do I need to worry about oxidation at this point (before fermentation)?

Humbly,

:D

[Mark Andrews]

I think your fine.  15 hours is barely in the slow start range.  Both the type of yeast and temperature will affect how quickly or aggresively the yeast acts.   Patience will pay off.

Does peaking under the lid increase risk?  Sure.  Would I worry about it?  No.  You're going to do it and interesting to see what the process looks like.  So enjoy it.  Just don't do it very often.

Have fun. 

M.

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[Ray Blockley]

My thoughts are that with a pH of 3.4 & only 6 gallons of juice, 10 Campden Tablets seems a rather large number...? It may be that a little too much SO2 has knocked your yeast sideways a bit & its taking some recovering - but 15 hours is a very short time to be concerned in any case. 15 days and yes, I'd be worried.

Give a couple of days & see what happens :-)

Ray.

--

[Nathan Shackelford]

If your previous experience with brewing beer is making you nervous after 15 hours, you will need to relax. I've done both, and with cider it's safer to wait longer because of the protective factor of the lower pH. A few days to a week isn't exactly a slow start for cider, especially after using SO2. I think you will be fine.

[t...@functionalmedia.com]

You can test the seal on the lid of the bucket by pressing on the lid.. slowly. This should build pressure and force the vodka in the airlock to rise and you press, and to fall back as you release.

Commercial cider in the USA requires chlorinated water for the rinsing of the apples, if your apple source is familiar with current sweet cider regulations for the USA that is why she favored the bleach addition.

--
Tom

[maynard]

On Monday, October 6, 2014 3:01:15 PM UTC-6, Ray wrote:

My thoughts are that with a pH of 3.4 & only 6 gallons of juice, 10 Campden Tablets seems a rather large number...

I came up with the number of tablets referencing The New Cider Maker's Handbook.  Also, this page seems to agree, or maybe even suggest 10 is a touch low.

:D

[maynard]

Neglected to add link in previous message.

http://www.cider.org.uk/sulphite.html

[Dibbs]

The yeast you are using seems to be notoriously slow to start even in beer for which it is intended.  Read the reviews and FAQ

here.  

http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp002-english-ale-yeast

I wouldn't worry about it for a couple of weeks at least.

Incidentally, if you're using that yeast hoping for some residual sweetness, that doesn't happen with cider.

 

[vince wakefield]

How long was it between adding the Camden tablets and pitching the yeast? Also did you dissolve the tablets before adding of just chuck them in whole?

 

Vince

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[maynard]

On Tuesday, October 7, 2014 10:33:29 AM UTC-6, Vince wrote:

How long was it between adding the Camden tablets and pitching the yeast? Also did you dissolve the tablets before adding of just chuck them in whole?

 

29 hours between Campden tablets and yeast.  Tablets were crushed to mostly powder, with some small chunks, but not dissolved.

:D

[maynard]

Thanks.  I don't remember why I chose that yeast in particular.  I remember reading somewhere that some magazine had suggested the the WPL002 was very good for making cider from, but the details of where I read this, or how they came to that conclusion escape me currently.

Does an attenuation percentage not apply when using a yeast in cider?

:D

[Andrew Lea]

On 07/10/2014 19:00, maynard wrote:

>
> Does an attenuation percentage not apply when using a yeast in cider?

NO.

Because all apple sugars (sucrose, fructose and glucose) are fully
fermentable. Unlike beer wort where around half the sugars can be
virtually non-fermentable. 'Attenuation' refers to the ability of a
yeast to ferment complex sugars such as maltotriose and maltotetraose.
These do not occur in fruit juices. You cannot achieve residual
sweetness in ciders in the same way you can in beers.

This is a fundamental difference between wine / cider making and
brewing. If you are to be a cidermaker you need to think like a
winemaker not a brewer.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[maynard]

Thank you for explaining that.  Honestly, since this is my first time fermenting anything at all with yeast, I doubt I think like anything at this point. :)

:D

[Andrew Lea]

On 07/10/2014 19:18, maynard wrote:
> Thank you for explaining that. Honestly, since this is my first time
> fermenting anything at all with yeast, I doubt I think like anything at
> this point. :)

Oh apologies! It sounded as if you had a brewing background. But since
you don't, you have the chance to pick up all the right cidermaking
habits from the start. There are plenty of people here to help you on to
the right path ;-)

Your expectation of fermentation beginning in only 15 hours was more
than a tad unrealistic. Yeasts are living things. The population you
inoculate has to grow and multiply in the juice by around one hundred
times before it reaches the stage where it can saturate the juice with
carbon dioxide gas. Until that stage is reached, although the yeast is
growing, you will not see any visible sign of fermentation (bubbles).
That will take several days, even with a strong inoculum like yours. If
you used a wild yeast fermentation with low cell numbers as many of us
do, you might be waiting 3 weeks before you see anything happen.

You might also like to think about your fermentation temperature. 75F or
25C is quite hot for a craft cider fermentation. Most people here would
recommend closer to 60F or 15C, even lower, and would more likely think
to use a wine yeast, not a beer yeast.

Hope these pointers help.

[David Baker]

No worries.  I was not taken aback by anything in your message. I

I based the time for fermentation start off of the bottle the yeast came in, but thinking about it now, that was of course for beer (which the yeast is intended for).  As is the suggested temperature of 70-75f.

Looking at the WL website, it mentions that stirring is a good idea for this yeast as it is highly flocculant, and can get hung up in trubb (or in this case apple sediment) fairly easily.

I choose the yeast because I read in some other forum (don't remember which) that zymurgy magazine had recommended it for cider because  it gave results similar to a commercial brand that my wife favors.  If it ends up not taking off, I do have a smack-pack of some champagne yeast that I can attempt to (re)start with, but I think from listening to everbody here that patience is probably all that is required at this point.

With the sulfited must, in a sanitized and air-locked plastic-bucket fermenter, the must should be safe for a bit before I need to worry about nasties, or oxidation correct?

Thanks again for the additional information on yeast.  I do understand the growth, but didn't know where the attenuation numbers applied. Also the 5-15 hour listed time (for beer) on the yeast bottle is probably all that has me concerned.

Cheers,

:D

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[Andrew Lea]

On 07/10/2014 19:55, David Baker wrote:

> I based the time for fermentation start off of the bottle the yeast came
> in, but thinking about it now, that was of course for beer (which the
> yeast is intended for).

You have also added SO2, which brewers never (or very rarely) do.
Brewing yeasts are not 'trained' to resist SO2 as wine yeasts are and
may have a longer lag phase for this reason.

>
> I choose the yeast because I read in some other forum (don't remember
> which) that zymurgy magazine had recommended it for cider because it
> gave results similar to a commercial brand that my wife favors.

Just be aware that the format and flavour of most commercial ciders is
determined only in part by the yeast. A lot of it is do with post
fermentation processing eg carbonation and sugar levels let alone acid
balance from the apples or amelioration with other ingredients such as
fermentable glucose syrup.

>
> With the sulfited must, in a sanitized and air-locked plastic-bucket
> fermenter, the must should be safe for a bit before I need to worry
> about nasties, or oxidation correct?

In the early stages you don't need to worry too much about oxidation.
After fermentation you must be vigilant to keep air out.

[maynard]

Still absolutely no airlock activity.  The fermenter is air tight (a slight slow press causes movement in the airlock).

I pitched a Wyeast smack pack of champagne yeast on Friday night.  The package swelled so the yeast was active.  ~60 hours later and no activity.

Am I still being impatient, or is there something wrong?  The only thing I can figure is that I made a huge mistake in the number of campden tablets.  I'll double check the package tonight to make sure I added what I think I added.

:D

[maynard]

Bubbles!

:D

[noel.wade]

Ah yes, the excitement! :-) 

  

As someone who's only on their 3rd season of cider-making, I still recall that thrill when my first batch started working (and I had to pitch two batches of yeast myself).

  

Good luck,

  

--Noel

  

On Thursday, October 16, 2014 2:52:35 PM UTC-7, maynard wrote:

Bubbles!

:D